Official Offseason Thread 9.0: The Long Road to October

[jezzerinho]

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Isaac unloading two clips:

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Not a bad shot, as here he is from July:

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[pepe1991]

..

Today's video:

Isaac unloading two clips:

Read on Twitter

Not a bad shot, as here he is from July:

Read on Twitter

This social media content is enthusiastically endorsed by Jesus Christ.

[eyriq]

Suggs betting on himself is crazy ngl

[The-Stallion70]

Suggs betting on himself is crazy ngl

I'm curious to hear your justification for this. Crazy smart? Crazy-not smart? What is your take on this?

[eyriq]

Suggs betting on himself is crazy ngl

I'm curious to hear your justification for this. Crazy smart? Crazy-not smart? What is your take on this?

Crazy not smart. He's slightly injury prone, has a ceiling on this team as a 3rd option, has seen the shift in the free agent market for roleplayers, and has AB on his heels.

He just doesn't have much leverage and it's impossible to play his way into a max contract on this team given we are paying Franz and will be paying Paolo.

[basketballRob]

Suggs betting on himself is crazy ngl

I'm curious to hear your justification for this. Crazy smart? Crazy-not smart? What is your take on this?

He's got some random agents I've never heard of.

He has until October 21st to sign.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

[VFX]

Suggs betting on himself is crazy ngl

I'm curious to hear your justification for this. Crazy smart? Crazy-not smart? What is your take on this?

and has AB on his heels.

No, he isnt.

The team has the leverage. They can resign him as a RFA and he can be matched at any offer.
It's just annoying from a fan perspective because everyone knows they cant have 3 max contracts, nor should they.

[Bensational]

Suggs is obviously just trying to play himself into a higher offer than what’s currently on the table for him. That could be the difference between $25m and $30m per season.

We don’t have to pay him a max deal and he doesn’t have to chase one, but we probably have to pay him in that $30m range the way Boston is paying JRue, KP and next season White all in that range. Next season Boston will be paying $110m between Tatum and Brown and another $90m between JRue, KP and White, cos contending costs money.

Suggs betting on himself is in his best interest and the team’s best interest. If it motivates him to a higher level, why complain when we’re not the ones paying his salary?

[VFX]

Suggs is obviously just trying to play himself into a higher offer than what’s currently on the table for him. That could be the difference between $25m and $30m per season.

We don’t have to pay him a max deal and he doesn’t have to chase one, but we probably have to pay him in that $30m range the way Boston is paying JRue, KP and next season White all in that range. Next season Boston will be paying $110m between Tatum and Brown and another $90m between JRue, KP and White, cos contending costs money.

Suggs betting on himself is in his best interest and the team’s best interest. If it motivates him to a higher level, why complain when we’re not the ones paying his salary?

Because cap space exists.

I don't mind Suggs getting a bag because he's worth it. However, Orlando has limited opportunities should he get what some consider "overpaid". We both know Suggs wants nothing more than Orlando to be a successful team. Bargaining and extending out this process further kind of tells us more about his priorities.

I'm not saying he's wrong necessarily, but he has to prove he is capable for more than a season before getting into any kind of comparisons between those known quantities you listed. Orlando isnt in contend mode. They are still building in that department, which is why drawing this out isnt great for a team that will be expensive very soon and not yet past the first round.

[BadMofoPimp]

Suggs betting on himself is crazy ngl

I'm curious to hear your justification for this. Crazy smart? Crazy-not smart? What is your take on this?

Crazy not smart. He's slightly injury prone, has a ceiling on this team as a 3rd option, has seen the shift in the free agent market for roleplayers, and has AB on his heels.

He just doesn't have much leverage and it's impossible to play his way into a max contract on this team given we are paying Franz and will be paying Paolo.

Maybe he thinks he can leverage himself as the 2nd option on an another team or at least get paid like one.

[Bensational]

Suggs is obviously just trying to play himself into a higher offer than what’s currently on the table for him. That could be the difference between $25m and $30m per season.

We don’t have to pay him a max deal and he doesn’t have to chase one, but we probably have to pay him in that $30m range the way Boston is paying JRue, KP and next season White all in that range. Next season Boston will be paying $110m between Tatum and Brown and another $90m between JRue, KP and White, cos contending costs money.

Suggs betting on himself is in his best interest and the team’s best interest. If it motivates him to a higher level, why complain when we’re not the ones paying his salary?

Because cap space exists.

I don't mind Suggs getting a bag because he's worth it. However, Orlando has limited opportunities should he get what some consider "overpaid". We both know Suggs wants nothing more than Orlando to be a successful team. Bargaining and extending out this process further kind of tells us more about his priorities.

I'm not saying he's wrong necessarily, but he has to prove he is capable for more than a season before getting into any kind of comparisons between those known quantities you listed. Orlando isnt in contend mode. They are still building in that department, which is why drawing this out isnt great for a team that will be expensive very soon and not yet past the first round.

Cap space is there to be spent. Competing and contending with talent costs money. Minnesota have almost $150m between Gobert, KAT and Edwards. Boston has almost $200m between their starting 5.

Franz and Suggs extensions won’t kick in until next season. We have 2 full seasons until Paolo’s extension kicks in. This team won’t get expensive “very soon”, and by the time it is we should be into contention mode and know which players need to be moved for fit and finances. For now, it’s not an issue in any possible way for the Magic.

[VFX]

Suggs is obviously just trying to play himself into a higher offer than what’s currently on the table for him. That could be the difference between $25m and $30m per season.

We don’t have to pay him a max deal and he doesn’t have to chase one, but we probably have to pay him in that $30m range the way Boston is paying JRue, KP and next season White all in that range. Next season Boston will be paying $110m between Tatum and Brown and another $90m between JRue, KP and White, cos contending costs money.

Suggs betting on himself is in his best interest and the team’s best interest. If it motivates him to a higher level, why complain when we’re not the ones paying his salary?

Because cap space exists.

I don't mind Suggs getting a bag because he's worth it. However, Orlando has limited opportunities should he get what some consider "overpaid". We both know Suggs wants nothing more than Orlando to be a successful team. Bargaining and extending out this process further kind of tells us more about his priorities.

I'm not saying he's wrong necessarily, but he has to prove he is capable for more than a season before getting into any kind of comparisons between those known quantities you listed. Orlando isnt in contend mode. They are still building in that department, which is why drawing this out isnt great for a team that will be expensive very soon and not yet past the first round.

Cap space is there to be spent. Competing and contending with talent costs money. Minnesota have almost $150m between Gobert, KAT and Edwards. Boston has almost $200m between their starting 5.

Franz and Suggs extensions won’t kick in until next season. We have 2 full seasons until Paolo’s extension kicks in. This team won’t get expensive “very soon”, and by the time it is we should be into contention mode and know which players need to be moved for fit and finances. For now, it’s not an issue in any possible way for the Magic.

My point is that your examples are the #1 team in the East that just won the championship and the #3 team in the West that were 1 round from the finals. Neither are examples that make sense as a comparison for Orlando where they are in their timeline and cap space.

If the Magic know that 2 max contracts + Suggs at $28-$30m+, and their various other obligations, they have minimal wiggle room to upgrade the roster. The timeframe doesn’t really matter if they already know this. They know they are maxing Paolo.

Banking on Internal development for 3-4 seasons isnt great in terms of saying “spend cap space”. And it is “very soon” considering we can already pencil in Paolo and max unless you are under the assumption that Weltman is going to move 3-4 other players in non lateral moves.

Back to the point… Suggs can test the market. I get it. He’s betting on himself. It just doesn’t benefit Orlando really knowing where the roster sits and the questions still needing answers. He has 1 full great season under his belt and maybe he will show that he can provide more.

[Bensational]

Because cap space exists.

I don't mind Suggs getting a bag because he's worth it. However, Orlando has limited opportunities should he get what some consider "overpaid". We both know Suggs wants nothing more than Orlando to be a successful team. Bargaining and extending out this process further kind of tells us more about his priorities.

I'm not saying he's wrong necessarily, but he has to prove he is capable for more than a season before getting into any kind of comparisons between those known quantities you listed. Orlando isnt in contend mode. They are still building in that department, which is why drawing this out isnt great for a team that will be expensive very soon and not yet past the first round.

Cap space is there to be spent. Competing and contending with talent costs money. Minnesota have almost $150m between Gobert, KAT and Edwards. Boston has almost $200m between their starting 5.

Franz and Suggs extensions won’t kick in until next season. We have 2 full seasons until Paolo’s extension kicks in. This team won’t get expensive “very soon”, and by the time it is we should be into contention mode and know which players need to be moved for fit and finances. For now, it’s not an issue in any possible way for the Magic.

My point is that your examples are the #1 team in the East that just won the championship and the #3 team in the West that were 1 round from the finals. Neither are examples that make sense as a comparison for Orlando where they are in their timeline and cap space.

If the Magic know that 2 max contracts + Suggs at $28-$30m+, and their various other obligations, they have minimal wiggle room to upgrade the roster. The timeframe doesn’t really matter if they already know this. They know they are maxing Paolo.

Banking on Internal development for 3-4 seasons isnt great in terms of saying “spend cap space”. And it is “very soon” considering we can already pencil in Paolo and max unless you are under the assumption that Weltman is going to move 3-4 other players in non lateral moves.

Back to the point… Suggs can test the market. I get it. He’s betting on himself. It just doesn’t benefit Orlando really knowing where the roster sits and the questions still needing answers. He has 1 full great season under his belt and maybe he will show that he can provide more.

I don’t even know what your complaint is. Let’s say Suggs extends for $30m right now, what difference does it make to the team? Doesn’t change the finances, doesn’t change the rotation - it doesn’t make a difference really. I’m sure it would have some kind of mental affect but beyond that Suggs contract isn’t going to answer any of the questions you have, his game on the court will. Overall it’s not a deal we need to rush into signing and it doesn’t compromise us to wait. And even when they eventually do go over the salary cap they can still make trades to acquire new talent the same way every other contender has.

[VFX]

Cap space is there to be spent. Competing and contending with talent costs money. Minnesota have almost $150m between Gobert, KAT and Edwards. Boston has almost $200m between their starting 5.

Franz and Suggs extensions won’t kick in until next season. We have 2 full seasons until Paolo’s extension kicks in. This team won’t get expensive “very soon”, and by the time it is we should be into contention mode and know which players need to be moved for fit and finances. For now, it’s not an issue in any possible way for the Magic.

My point is that your examples are the #1 team in the East that just won the championship and the #3 team in the West that were 1 round from the finals. Neither are examples that make sense as a comparison for Orlando where they are in their timeline and cap space.

If the Magic know that 2 max contracts + Suggs at $28-$30m+, and their various other obligations, they have minimal wiggle room to upgrade the roster. The timeframe doesn’t really matter if they already know this. They know they are maxing Paolo.

Banking on Internal development for 3-4 seasons isnt great in terms of saying “spend cap space”. And it is “very soon” considering we can already pencil in Paolo and max unless you are under the assumption that Weltman is going to move 3-4 other players in non lateral moves.

Back to the point… Suggs can test the market. I get it. He’s betting on himself. It just doesn’t benefit Orlando really knowing where the roster sits and the questions still needing answers. He has 1 full great season under his belt and maybe he will show that he can provide more.

I don’t even know what your complaint is. Let’s say Suggs extends for $30m right now, what difference does it make to the team? Doesn’t change the finances, doesn’t change the rotation - it doesn’t make a difference really. I’m sure it would have some kind of mental affect but beyond that Suggs contract isn’t going to answer any of the questions you have, his game on the court will. Overall it’s not a deal we need to rush into signing and it doesn’t compromise us to wait. And even when they eventually do go over the salary cap they can still make trades to acquire new talent the same way every other contender has.

My original point is that it’s merely bad optics on Suggs part. Do I get his decision? Sure. Orlando is going to match him, but it’s nitpicking when Suggs has 1 good season in proving himself and the state of the roster’s construction. He’s not stupid and knows it matters.

I’m not agreeing with anyone thinking “hes crazy” for testing the market. It’s perfectly fine for him to do. He just isn’t enough of a known quantity on his side to say he’s worth more than what they are likely offering him at this moment. He doesn’t have the resume of Derrick White or Jrue Holiday.

My last few posts are debating your notion that cap space doesn’t matter and needs to be spent. They have obviously already situated the roster into 2.5 - 2.7 max contracts on 3rd and 4th year players. Comparing that to 2 of the top 3 most expensive rosters currently competing for a championship isn’t a real comparison.

We can talk when Orlando makes it further with this core. You retain players like Suggs, Franz, and Paolo. However, let’s not pretend that the window isnt now considering the roster will only continue to get expensive as these extensions kick in. There are 2-3 players that should have been moved yesterday with this in mind considering the roster as it sits. There are too many questions that haven’t been answered to pretend otherwise.

[jibba jones]

Young, all defense, third best player with room to grow types get paid.

What did he shoot from 3?

[pepe1991]

There is scenario where team with money to waste , without much going - mainly Nets, can throw max offer on him, and in that case Magic would be screwed. And Nets will probably have two max slots to sign anyway, given they have almost nobody in salary books after this year.

Magic don't have salary cap problems this year, but for next year you have:

Fraz: $38,6M
Isaac: $15 M
KCP: $21,6M
Paolo: $15M
Cole: $13M
Mo ( team option) $11M
Carter $10,8M ( expiring)
Goga: $8M
Black: $8M
Jett: $5,5M
Tristan: $3,8M

without counting on: Houstan, Joseph, Gary Harris, Suggs, without singing any rookie, that's around $157 000 000 in books.

Salary cap projection for next year is $154M.

Without Suggs exstension, without eying on Banchero's exstension that will be around $44M from start, Magic are capped out. Oh, and without exstension of Carter.

Yes, Wolves did invested whole bunch into their big 4, but played WCF. Also they have second biggest luxury tax in a league. Highest one - Suns, are paying $430 000 000 in cumulative salary + luxury tax.


Addition of second apron on luxury tax line also limits teams to use MLE or pretty much sign anybody but current roster players ( re-signs) on anything above vets minimum. You can survive 3 years at most being ultra expensive team until massive decline in product.

Imo, Suggs should get around $25M , for 3 and D role player who is pretty good at his role. Paying him max contract, imo, is foolish. No matter who does it and who offers him that. But that's just my opinion.

[GelbeWand09]

I love Suggs but he is a defensive specialist at a position where defense matters less compared to the Center position. His offense are fast breaks and 3's. He got no PG skills in the halfcourt at all and probably bottom of the league ballhandling among starting PG's. When we overpay Suggs I don't see this core ever offensively equipped enough to be a real contender. All 3 have way too much limitations in a halfcourt setting for effective offense no matter the shooting around them.
You need someone who can create in the halfcourt, put pressure on the defense, create open looks. None of them has the the ball handling + speed combination to do it constantly. This trio needs a good PG or a 3 level Scoring SG but how you gonna pay such a player when those 3 getting the max market price?

[VFX]

I love Suggs but he is a defensive specialist at a position where defense matters less compared to the Center position. His offense are fast breaks and 3's. He got no PG skills in the halfcourt at all and probably bottom of the league ballhandling among starting PG's. When we overpay Suggs I don't see this core ever offensively equipped enough to be a real contender. All 3 have way too much limitations in a halfcourt setting for effective offense no matter the shooting around them.
You need someone who can create in the halfcourt, put pressure on the defense, create open looks. None of them has the the ball handling + speed combination to do it constantly. This trio needs a good PG or a 3 level Scoring SG but how you gonna pay such a player when those 3 getting the max market price?

This is where I am.

There are only three options for landing that player should Suggs get paid over a certain amount of cap.

- Consolidation trade (Carter, Cole, picks, filler) for this offense creator. Still highly unlikely due to their availability and how limited these allstar creators are in number.

- Someone steps up on the roster. This would have to be AB or Suggs himself. I love Suggs and I’m high on AB. I just don’t see this as likely.

- Smaller trade hoping for a Tyrese Maxey situation via draft pick or buried prospect elsewhere.

Those are your options should Suggs get over a certain amount of cap space in finding that last piece to the puzzle everyone knows Orlando needs. That’s why I think it’s bad optics for Suggs for anyone that understands how this all works.

[JoshuaPotter]

Ok ill say it because nobody else has.

Suggs could still become our no 1 option. It just isn't likely.

Paolo + Franz are amazing talents and will get our max contract. The fact of the matter is, I haven't entirely given up on Suggs offensive development. Maybe after this year we close the door.

Anthony Black also has a long way to go, but shouldn't be ruled out.

The closest to "sure things" we have either are getting paid (Injury Isaac), or Franz + Paolo + KCP. This is simple to me.

[eyriq]

I think it's crazy because the risk outweighs the reward for him. His play style is hyper-physical and he puts his body at risk more than most players.

His cap hold is $28M, so he must be asking for north of that, right? A scenario where he hits a max extension is that he cements his role as our third option, shoots ~40% from three, makes all-defense again, AND gets a max offer from another team. He could do the first three and still get nowhere close to the max. Either we are low-balling the hell out of him or he's tripping.