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Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon

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Should we resign Vuc/Ross

Yes
43
34%
Yes, but just Vuc
9
7%
Yes, but just Ross
51
40%
No
23
18%
 
Total votes: 126

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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#681 » by j-ragg » Sun May 26, 2019 2:12 pm

NotACat wrote:I still don't think our FO trades for a PG, but our FO would like Jrue Holiday more than Mike Conley. I think there's a chance we take a swing on Jrue and offer DJ Augustine + Moz + 16 (depending on who's available).

Jrue is bigger and more versatile than Conley, and Jrue could play alongside Fultz if he gets healthy and we can move on from Fournier (who will be expiring next year). He's also on contract till 2022 which could be problematic since he's about to be 29yo.

Jrue-Fournier-AG-Isaac-(Vuc/Bamba).



Again, our FO has stated financial flexibility is a priority so I don't think we make drastic changes to our roster this offsesason, but wanted to put this out there as food for thought.

Yeah the reason I'm cool with the Conley deal is because he'd come cheap. I'd be shocked if that's all it took to get Jrue. I'd guess they'd ask for Bamba in a deal given where they are as a franchise.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#682 » by OrlChamps2030 » Sun May 26, 2019 2:38 pm

j-ragg wrote:
NotACat wrote:I still don't think our FO trades for a PG, but our FO would like Jrue Holiday more than Mike Conley. I think there's a chance we take a swing on Jrue and offer DJ Augustine + Moz + 16 (depending on who's available).

Jrue is bigger and more versatile than Conley, and Jrue could play alongside Fultz if he gets healthy and we can move on from Fournier (who will be expiring next year). He's also on contract till 2022 which could be problematic since he's about to be 29yo.

Jrue-Fournier-AG-Isaac-(Vuc/Bamba).



Again, our FO has stated financial flexibility is a priority so I don't think we make drastic changes to our roster this offsesason, but wanted to put this out there as food for thought.

Yeah the reason I'm cool with the Conley deal is because he'd come cheap. I'd be shocked if that's all it took to get Jrue. I'd guess they'd ask for Bamba in a deal given where they are as a franchise.

Yeah that’s what I like about a Conley deal too, he comes cheap it’s just a matter of taking on salary and parting ways with 16.

I really doubt that’s all it would take to get Jrue on the team. Would love to have him though. But Bamba definitely goes out if Jrue is coming in
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#683 » by basketballRob » Sun May 26, 2019 7:13 pm

Nickeil Alexander Walker might be a good draft pick. He can also play the point.

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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#684 » by ezzzp » Sun May 26, 2019 7:13 pm

Bensational wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:


Most current contenders can be traced back to a draft pick origin. It's true that what often vaults a team from playoffs to contenders is having one premier talent, and then being able to another to them. Those additions often come via trade, and often off the back of an asset that was once a draft pick. Look at this year's contenders:

GSW - Curry, Klay, Dray - all drafted. Durant signed as FA.
MIL - Giannis, Brogdon - drafted. Middleton traded with Knight for Jennings (drafted). Bledose traded for Monroe who signed as FA.
TOR - Kawhi traded for DeRozan (drafted). Siakam drafted. Lowry traded for a future 1st. Gasol traded for Val (drafted).
POR - Lillard, McCollum - drafted.

All tying back to draft picks. However... apart from Durant, none of those picks were higher than a #5 pick, and he was the least important name amongst them.

Spoiler:
#2 - Durant
#5 - Valanciunas
#6 - Lillard
#7 - Curry, Monroe
#9 - DeRozan
#10 - McCollum, Jennings
#11 - Klay
#15 - Kawhi, Giannis
#18 - Bledsoe
#24 - Lowry
#27 - Siakam
#35 - Draymond
#36 - Brogdon
#48 - Gasol


So really, it just emphasises the importance of maximising your picks and getting the best value regardless of where you're drafting, and then handling those assets effectively. This really does highlight that talent can be found all over the draft, and those pieces can still be packaged for other pieces that help you win.

In our case, we've got Gordon who's developing well, and Isaac, Bamba and Fultz who are all still very raw/unproven and developing. That's still 4 pieces that, if managed well, could become or could net us a Kawhi, Middleton, Gasol, etc. We're just in that unfortunate limbo of not knowing what we've got with 3/4's of them.


Nearly every NBA player is drafted, so its not surprising that most contenders can be traced back to a draft pick. Most bottom feeder teams can be traced back to draft picks as well.

All NBA teams are heavily composed of their own drafted players for most seasons, and this composition increases the lower the stage of the teams development. So that they trade their drafted players for other players can pretty much describe a majority of transactions in the NBA.

The difference between the contending teams and the bottom feeders is the development and management of ALL their assets, with the development of their drafted players being a key factor.

The four teams that you listed above reinforces my statement, and the sentiments of all the best player development franchises in the NBA: playing in a competitive context is the best way to develop your players and increase their value; meaningful minutes for +82 games vs teams actually trying is what they preach.

The front offices of those four teams are known for their refusal to stage a prolonged rebuild (aka no tanking). Instead those teams continuously constructed rosters built to play competitive, even if they were just a fringe playoff team.

• Golden State:

After 16 years of failed rebuilds with tons of losing (with exception of short-lived 2006-08 with one playoff) the Warriors fired Larry Riley and handed reigns to Bob Meyers. Meyers immediately changed how that organization developed their young assets and began reversing the losing culture by making transactions to improve the competitiveness of the team.

Right away he acquired PG Jarrett Jack (29) and PF Carl Landry (29). Two peak prime vets with reputations for leadership and high bbIIQ. The next summer, he traded two 1st Rd Picks (2014, 2017) + a 2nd Rd Pick for 30 year old Andre Iguodala...another player with a reputation of leadership, high bbIQ and fierce competitiveness. Within that competitive culture, he developed and groomed a roster with numerous mid-lottery to 2nd round youth into a dynasty.

• Toronto:

After two tank rebuilds that both cycled to 1st round exit peaks, Toronto hired Masai Ujiri (along with Jeff Weltman) in 2013.

Ujiri was the Denver GM that handled the Carmello drama. He refused to bottom out, getting criticized for "tread milling." That trade happened same time as the Dwightmare in Orlando.

Denver (and Tim Connelly who was groomed by Masai and took over after he left) continued that philosophy and have a .584 winning % (post-Carmello) + have a franchise player in Jokic + a plethora of high quality young players that they found all over draft and have developed in a winning context. In the same span, post-Dwight Orlando (who chose to tank) have a .347 winning % and no visible franchise player.

Toronto after Masai (and Weltman's) arrival, despite every pro tank person laughing at them, chose not to blow it up and bottom out and instead doubled down on keeping that team competitive. This helped them develop their youth (Siakim, VanVleet etc) while keeping the value of all their assets. This is how they acquired Kawhi and Gasol...and are now in the NBA Finals.

...similar paths can be seen with Portland and Milwaukee...both franchises refusing prolonged rebuilds and instead maintaining competitive rosters to develop and maintain or improve the value of all their assets.

I feel confident that Weltman and Hammond, who built or were key in assembling, two of those rosters are following that similar trajectory.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#685 » by VFX » Sun May 26, 2019 7:35 pm

ezzzp wrote:
Bensational wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:


Most current contenders can be traced back to a draft pick origin. It's true that what often vaults a team from playoffs to contenders is having one premier talent, and then being able to another to them. Those additions often come via trade, and often off the back of an asset that was once a draft pick. Look at this year's contenders:

GSW - Curry, Klay, Dray - all drafted. Durant signed as FA.
MIL - Giannis, Brogdon - drafted. Middleton traded with Knight for Jennings (drafted). Bledose traded for Monroe who signed as FA.
TOR - Kawhi traded for DeRozan (drafted). Siakam drafted. Lowry traded for a future 1st. Gasol traded for Val (drafted).
POR - Lillard, McCollum - drafted.

All tying back to draft picks. However... apart from Durant, none of those picks were higher than a #5 pick, and he was the least important name amongst them.

Spoiler:
#2 - Durant
#5 - Valanciunas
#6 - Lillard
#7 - Curry, Monroe
#9 - DeRozan
#10 - McCollum, Jennings
#11 - Klay
#15 - Kawhi, Giannis
#18 - Bledsoe
#24 - Lowry
#27 - Siakam
#35 - Draymond
#36 - Brogdon
#48 - Gasol


So really, it just emphasises the importance of maximising your picks and getting the best value regardless of where you're drafting, and then handling those assets effectively. This really does highlight that talent can be found all over the draft, and those pieces can still be packaged for other pieces that help you win.

In our case, we've got Gordon who's developing well, and Isaac, Bamba and Fultz who are all still very raw/unproven and developing. That's still 4 pieces that, if managed well, could become or could net us a Kawhi, Middleton, Gasol, etc. We're just in that unfortunate limbo of not knowing what we've got with 3/4's of them.


Nearly every NBA player is drafted, so its not surprising that most contenders can be traced back to a draft pick. Most bottom feeder teams can be traced back to draft picks as well.

All NBA teams are heavily composed of their own drafted players for most seasons, and this composition increases the lower the stage of the teams development. So that they trade their drafted players for other players can pretty much describe a majority of transactions in the NBA.

The difference between the contending teams and the bottom feeders is the development and management of ALL their assets, with the development of their drafted players being a key factor.

The four teams that you listed above reinforces my statement, and the sentiments of all the best player development franchises in the NBA: playing in a competitive context is the best way to develop your players and increase their value; meaningful minutes for +82 games vs teams actually trying is what they preach.

The front offices of those four teams are known for their refusal to stage a prolonged rebuild (aka no tanking). Instead those teams continuously constructed rosters built to play competitive, even if they were just a fringe playoff team.

• Golden State:

After 16 years of failed rebuilds with tons of losing (with exception of short-lived 2006-08 with one playoff) the Warriors fired Larry Riley and handed reigns to Bob Meyers. Meyers immediately changed how that organization developed their young assets and began reversing the losing culture by making transactions to improve the competitiveness of the team.

Right away he acquired PG Jarrett Jack (29) and PF Carl Landry (29). Two peak prime vets with reputations for leadership and high bbIIQ. The next summer, he traded two 1st Rd Picks (2014, 2017) + a 2nd Rd Pick for 30 year old Andre Iguodala...another player with a reputation of leadership, high bbIQ and fierce competitiveness. Within that competitive culture, he developed and groomed a roster with numerous mid-lottery to 2nd round youth into a dynasty.

• Toronto:

After two tank rebuilds that both cycled to 1st round exit peaks, Toronto hired Masai Ujiri (along with Jeff Weltman) in 2013.

Ujiri was the Denver GM that handled the Carmello drama. He refused to bottom out, getting criticized for "tread milling." That trade happened same time as the Dwightmare in Orlando. In the span since, Denver and Tim Connelly who was groomed by Masai, continued that philosophy has a .584 winning % and have a franchise player in Jokic + plethora of high quality young players that they found all over draft and have developed in a winning context. In the same span, Orlando who chose to tank, has a .347 winning % and no visible franchise player.

Toronto after Masai (and Weltman's) arrival, despite every pro tank person laughing at them, chose not to blow it up and bottom out and instead doubled down on keeping the team competitive. This helped them develop their youth (Siakim, VanVleet etc) while keeping the value of all their assets. This is how they acquired Kawhi and Gasol...and are now in the NBA Finals.

...similar paths can be seen with Portland and Milwaukee...both franchises refusing prolonged rebuilds and instead maintaining competitive rosters to develop and maintain or improve the value of all their assets.

I feel confident that Weltman and Hammond, who built or were key in assembling, two of those rosters are following that similar trajectory.


So you are going to use the extremely unlikely scenarios of Kawhi and Giannis as examples to why what you are saying works.

Kawhi - forced his way out of a winning spurs organization and was traded directly for Derozen (drafted 9th and only one team removed for both players) as a last ditch gamble by Toronto after saying he wasn’t likely resigning. They are screwed if he leaves next season after they lose to GS btw.

Giannis - drafted 15th and is the poster boy now for taking the risk of drafting measurables early in the draft despite the Bruno Caboclos and Thon Makers of the world proving that to be an extreme rarity.

Needless to say, neither of these franchises would be where they are without these lucky breaks going their way landing these players. Milwaukee was 14 picks from not having Giannis and Toronto can thank Kawhi’s uncle.

Meanwhile Golden State drafts two perennial HOFers at #7 and #11 picks while also having #2 and #5 on their roster regardless. Draymond is maximized by finding him late in the 2nd round as the perfect complimentary piece but not someone you “build around”. And your using that as “proof”? :lol:


Seems legit.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#686 » by Bakomagic » Sun May 26, 2019 7:39 pm

MagicMatic wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
Bensational wrote:
Most current contenders can be traced back to a draft pick origin. It's true that what often vaults a team from playoffs to contenders is having one premier talent, and then being able to another to them. Those additions often come via trade, and often off the back of an asset that was once a draft pick. Look at this year's contenders:

GSW - Curry, Klay, Dray - all drafted. Durant signed as FA.
MIL - Giannis, Brogdon - drafted. Middleton traded with Knight for Jennings (drafted). Bledose traded for Monroe who signed as FA.
TOR - Kawhi traded for DeRozan (drafted). Siakam drafted. Lowry traded for a future 1st. Gasol traded for Val (drafted).
POR - Lillard, McCollum - drafted.

All tying back to draft picks. However... apart from Durant, none of those picks were higher than a #5 pick, and he was the least important name amongst them.

Spoiler:
#2 - Durant
#5 - Valanciunas
#6 - Lillard
#7 - Curry, Monroe
#9 - DeRozan
#10 - McCollum, Jennings
#11 - Klay
#15 - Kawhi, Giannis
#18 - Bledsoe
#24 - Lowry
#27 - Siakam
#35 - Draymond
#36 - Brogdon
#48 - Gasol


So really, it just emphasises the importance of maximising your picks and getting the best value regardless of where you're drafting, and then handling those assets effectively. This really does highlight that talent can be found all over the draft, and those pieces can still be packaged for other pieces that help you win.

In our case, we've got Gordon who's developing well, and Isaac, Bamba and Fultz who are all still very raw/unproven and developing. That's still 4 pieces that, if managed well, could become or could net us a Kawhi, Middleton, Gasol, etc. We're just in that unfortunate limbo of not knowing what we've got with 3/4's of them.


Nearly every NBA player is drafted, so its not surprising that most contenders can be traced back to a draft pick. Most bottom feeder teams can be traced back to draft picks as well.

All NBA teams are heavily composed of their own drafted players for most seasons, and this composition increases the lower the stage of the teams development. So that they trade their drafted players for other players can pretty much describe a majority of transactions in the NBA.

The difference between the contending teams and the bottom feeders is the development and management of ALL their assets, with the development of their drafted players being a key factor.

The four teams that you listed above reinforces my statement, and the sentiments of all the best player development franchises in the NBA: playing in a competitive context is the best way to develop your players and increase their value; meaningful minutes for +82 games vs teams actually trying is what they preach.

The front offices of those four teams are known for their refusal to stage a prolonged rebuild (aka no tanking). Instead those teams continuously constructed rosters built to play competitive, even if they were just a fringe playoff team.

• Golden State:

After 16 years of failed rebuilds with tons of losing (with exception of short-lived 2006-08 with one playoff) the Warriors fired Larry Riley and handed reigns to Bob Meyers. Meyers immediately changed how that organization developed their young assets and began reversing the losing culture by making transactions to improve the competitiveness of the team.

Right away he acquired PG Jarrett Jack (29) and PF Carl Landry (29). Two peak prime vets with reputations for leadership and high bbIIQ. The next summer, he traded two 1st Rd Picks (2014, 2017) + a 2nd Rd Pick for 30 year old Andre Iguodala...another player with a reputation of leadership, high bbIQ and fierce competitiveness. Within that competitive culture, he developed and groomed a roster with numerous mid-lottery to 2nd round youth into a dynasty.

• Toronto:

After two tank rebuilds that both cycled to 1st round exit peaks, Toronto hired Masai Ujiri (along with Jeff Weltman) in 2013.

Ujiri was the Denver GM that handled the Carmello drama. He refused to bottom out, getting criticized for "tread milling." That trade happened same time as the Dwightmare in Orlando. In the span since, Denver and Tim Connelly who was groomed by Masai, continued that philosophy has a .584 winning % and have a franchise player in Jokic + plethora of high quality young players that they found all over draft and have developed in a winning context. In the same span, Orlando who chose to tank, has a .347 winning % and no visible franchise player.

Toronto after Masai (and Weltman's) arrival, despite every pro tank person laughing at them, chose not to blow it up and bottom out and instead doubled down on keeping the team competitive. This helped them develop their youth (Siakim, VanVleet etc) while keeping the value of all their assets. This is how they acquired Kawhi and Gasol...and are now in the NBA Finals.

...similar paths can be seen with Portland and Milwaukee...both franchises refusing prolonged rebuilds and instead maintaining competitive rosters to develop and maintain or improve the value of all their assets.

I feel confident that Weltman and Hammond, who built or were key in assembling, two of those rosters are following that similar trajectory.


So you are going to use the extremely unlikely scenarios of Kawhi and Giannis as examples to why what you are saying works.

Kawhi - forced his way out of the spurs organization and was traded directly for Derozen (drafted 9th and only one team removed for both players) as a last ditch gamble by Toronto after saying he wasn’t likely resigning.

Giannis - drafted 15th and is the poster boy now for taking the risk of drafting measurables early in the draft despite the Bruno Caboclos and Thon Makers of the world proving that to be a rarity.

Meanwhile Golden State drafts two perennial HOFers at #7 and #11 picks while also having #2 and #5 on their roster regardless. Draymond is maximized by finding him late in the 2nd round as the perfect complimentary piece but not someone you “build around”. And your using that as “proof”? :lol:


Seems legit.


Can something be considered “extremely unlikely” if three organizations have been able to do it recently ?
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#687 » by VFX » Sun May 26, 2019 7:44 pm

Bakomagic wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
Nearly every NBA player is drafted, so its not surprising that most contenders can be traced back to a draft pick. Most bottom feeder teams can be traced back to draft picks as well.

All NBA teams are heavily composed of their own drafted players for most seasons, and this composition increases the lower the stage of the teams development. So that they trade their drafted players for other players can pretty much describe a majority of transactions in the NBA.

The difference between the contending teams and the bottom feeders is the development and management of ALL their assets, with the development of their drafted players being a key factor.

The four teams that you listed above reinforces my statement, and the sentiments of all the best player development franchises in the NBA: playing in a competitive context is the best way to develop your players and increase their value; meaningful minutes for +82 games vs teams actually trying is what they preach.

The front offices of those four teams are known for their refusal to stage a prolonged rebuild (aka no tanking). Instead those teams continuously constructed rosters built to play competitive, even if they were just a fringe playoff team.

• Golden State:

After 16 years of failed rebuilds with tons of losing (with exception of short-lived 2006-08 with one playoff) the Warriors fired Larry Riley and handed reigns to Bob Meyers. Meyers immediately changed how that organization developed their young assets and began reversing the losing culture by making transactions to improve the competitiveness of the team.

Right away he acquired PG Jarrett Jack (29) and PF Carl Landry (29). Two peak prime vets with reputations for leadership and high bbIIQ. The next summer, he traded two 1st Rd Picks (2014, 2017) + a 2nd Rd Pick for 30 year old Andre Iguodala...another player with a reputation of leadership, high bbIQ and fierce competitiveness. Within that competitive culture, he developed and groomed a roster with numerous mid-lottery to 2nd round youth into a dynasty.

• Toronto:

After two tank rebuilds that both cycled to 1st round exit peaks, Toronto hired Masai Ujiri (along with Jeff Weltman) in 2013.

Ujiri was the Denver GM that handled the Carmello drama. He refused to bottom out, getting criticized for "tread milling." That trade happened same time as the Dwightmare in Orlando. In the span since, Denver and Tim Connelly who was groomed by Masai, continued that philosophy has a .584 winning % and have a franchise player in Jokic + plethora of high quality young players that they found all over draft and have developed in a winning context. In the same span, Orlando who chose to tank, has a .347 winning % and no visible franchise player.

Toronto after Masai (and Weltman's) arrival, despite every pro tank person laughing at them, chose not to blow it up and bottom out and instead doubled down on keeping the team competitive. This helped them develop their youth (Siakim, VanVleet etc) while keeping the value of all their assets. This is how they acquired Kawhi and Gasol...and are now in the NBA Finals.

...similar paths can be seen with Portland and Milwaukee...both franchises refusing prolonged rebuilds and instead maintaining competitive rosters to develop and maintain or improve the value of all their assets.

I feel confident that Weltman and Hammond, who built or were key in assembling, two of those rosters are following that similar trajectory.


So you are going to use the extremely unlikely scenarios of Kawhi and Giannis as examples to why what you are saying works.

Kawhi - forced his way out of the spurs organization and was traded directly for Derozen (drafted 9th and only one team removed for both players) as a last ditch gamble by Toronto after saying he wasn’t likely resigning.

Giannis - drafted 15th and is the poster boy now for taking the risk of drafting measurables early in the draft despite the Bruno Caboclos and Thon Makers of the world proving that to be a rarity.

Meanwhile Golden State drafts two perennial HOFers at #7 and #11 picks while also having #2 and #5 on their roster regardless. Draymond is maximized by finding him late in the 2nd round as the perfect complimentary piece but not someone you “build around”. And your using that as “proof”? :lol:


Seems legit.


Can something be considered “extremely unlikely” if three organizations have been able to do it recently ?


Can we say that these scenarios don’t happen if other teams weren’t there to take advantage of these arbitrary situations and luck of the draw picks?
Are we going to claim Brooklyn or NY as being genius organizations that calculated Kyrie and Durant would walk through their doors too? Or Kawhi with the Clippers?
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#688 » by ezzzp » Sun May 26, 2019 8:04 pm

MagicMatic wrote:
ezzzp wrote:Nearly every NBA player is drafted, so its not surprising that most contenders can be traced back to a draft pick. Most bottom feeder teams can be traced back to draft picks as well.

All NBA teams are heavily composed of their own drafted players for most seasons, and this composition increases the lower the stage of the teams development. So that they trade their drafted players for other players can pretty much describe a majority of transactions in the NBA.

The difference between the contending teams and the bottom feeders is the development and management of ALL their assets, with the development of their drafted players being a key factor.

The four teams that you listed above reinforces my statement, and the sentiments of all the best player development franchises in the NBA: playing in a competitive context is the best way to develop your players and increase their value; meaningful minutes for +82 games vs teams actually trying is what they preach.

The front offices of those four teams are known for their refusal to stage a prolonged rebuild (aka no tanking). Instead those teams continuously constructed rosters built to play competitive, even if they were just a fringe playoff team.

Spoiler:
• Golden State:

After 16 years of failed rebuilds with tons of losing (with exception of short-lived 2006-08 with one playoff) the Warriors fired Larry Riley and handed reigns to Bob Meyers. Meyers immediately changed how that organization developed their young assets and began reversing the losing culture by making transactions to improve the competitiveness of the team.

Right away he acquired PG Jarrett Jack (29) and PF Carl Landry (29). Two peak prime vets with reputations for leadership and high bbIIQ. The next summer, he traded two 1st Rd Picks (2014, 2017) + a 2nd Rd Pick for 30 year old Andre Iguodala...another player with a reputation of leadership, high bbIQ and fierce competitiveness. Within that competitive culture, he developed and groomed a roster with numerous mid-lottery to 2nd round youth into a dynasty.

• Toronto:

After two tank rebuilds that both cycled to 1st round exit peaks, Toronto hired Masai Ujiri (along with Jeff Weltman) in 2013.

Ujiri was the Denver GM that handled the Carmello drama. He refused to bottom out, getting criticized for "tread milling." That trade happened same time as the Dwightmare in Orlando. In the span since, Denver and Tim Connelly who was groomed by Masai, continued that philosophy has a .584 winning % and have a franchise player in Jokic + plethora of high quality young players that they found all over draft and have developed in a winning context. In the same span, Orlando who chose to tank, has a .347 winning % and no visible franchise player.

Toronto after Masai (and Weltman's) arrival, despite every pro tank person laughing at them, chose not to blow it up and bottom out and instead doubled down on keeping the team competitive. This helped them develop their youth (Siakim, VanVleet etc) while keeping the value of all their assets. This is how they acquired Kawhi and Gasol...and are now in the NBA Finals.

...similar paths can be seen with Portland and Milwaukee...both franchises refusing prolonged rebuilds and instead maintaining competitive rosters to develop and maintain or improve the value of all their assets.

I feel confident that Weltman and Hammond, who built or were key in assembling, two of those rosters are following that similar trajectory.


So you are going to use the extremely unlikely scenarios of Kawhi and Giannis as examples to why what you are saying works.

Kawhi - forced his way out of a winning spurs organization and was traded directly for Derozen (drafted 9th and only one team removed for both players) as a last ditch gamble by Toronto after saying he wasn’t likely resigning. They are screwed if he leaves next season after they lose to GS btw.

Giannis - drafted 15th and is the poster boy now for taking the risk of drafting measurables early in the draft despite the Bruno Caboclos and Thon Makers of the world proving that to be an extreme rarity.

Needless to say, neither of these franchises would be where they are without these lucky breaks going their way landing these players. Milwaukee was 14 picks from not having Giannis and Toronto can thank Kawhi’s uncle.

Meanwhile Golden State drafts two perennial HOFers at #7 and #11 picks while also having #2 and #5 on their roster regardless. Draymond is maximized by finding him late in the 2nd round as the perfect complimentary piece but not someone you “build around”. And your using that as “proof”? :lol:


Seems legit.


Boston, San Antonio, Miami Utah, etc. All the best player development franchises in the NBA have this philosophy...they also happen to be some of the best franchises in NBA

Luck is part of sports, having the best infrastructure and competitive culture in place for when luck hits is what matters. The list is infinite of franchises squandering "luck."

The teams that maximize it, have a history of not just maximizing "luck" but maximizing all their assets top to bottom and creating the context for when luck strikes to squeeze out most they can out of it.

You can laugh all you want, but you're laughing at the opinion of the best minds and franchises in NBA. :lol: now that's funny
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#689 » by VFX » Sun May 26, 2019 8:13 pm

ezzzp wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
ezzzp wrote:Nearly every NBA player is drafted, so its not surprising that most contenders can be traced back to a draft pick. Most bottom feeder teams can be traced back to draft picks as well.

All NBA teams are heavily composed of their own drafted players for most seasons, and this composition increases the lower the stage of the teams development. So that they trade their drafted players for other players can pretty much describe a majority of transactions in the NBA.

The difference between the contending teams and the bottom feeders is the development and management of ALL their assets, with the development of their drafted players being a key factor.

The four teams that you listed above reinforces my statement, and the sentiments of all the best player development franchises in the NBA: playing in a competitive context is the best way to develop your players and increase their value; meaningful minutes for +82 games vs teams actually trying is what they preach.

The front offices of those four teams are known for their refusal to stage a prolonged rebuild (aka no tanking). Instead those teams continuously constructed rosters built to play competitive, even if they were just a fringe playoff team.

Spoiler:
• Golden State:

After 16 years of failed rebuilds with tons of losing (with exception of short-lived 2006-08 with one playoff) the Warriors fired Larry Riley and handed reigns to Bob Meyers. Meyers immediately changed how that organization developed their young assets and began reversing the losing culture by making transactions to improve the competitiveness of the team.

Right away he acquired PG Jarrett Jack (29) and PF Carl Landry (29). Two peak prime vets with reputations for leadership and high bbIIQ. The next summer, he traded two 1st Rd Picks (2014, 2017) + a 2nd Rd Pick for 30 year old Andre Iguodala...another player with a reputation of leadership, high bbIQ and fierce competitiveness. Within that competitive culture, he developed and groomed a roster with numerous mid-lottery to 2nd round youth into a dynasty.

• Toronto:

After two tank rebuilds that both cycled to 1st round exit peaks, Toronto hired Masai Ujiri (along with Jeff Weltman) in 2013.

Ujiri was the Denver GM that handled the Carmello drama. He refused to bottom out, getting criticized for "tread milling." That trade happened same time as the Dwightmare in Orlando. In the span since, Denver and Tim Connelly who was groomed by Masai, continued that philosophy has a .584 winning % and have a franchise player in Jokic + plethora of high quality young players that they found all over draft and have developed in a winning context. In the same span, Orlando who chose to tank, has a .347 winning % and no visible franchise player.

Toronto after Masai (and Weltman's) arrival, despite every pro tank person laughing at them, chose not to blow it up and bottom out and instead doubled down on keeping the team competitive. This helped them develop their youth (Siakim, VanVleet etc) while keeping the value of all their assets. This is how they acquired Kawhi and Gasol...and are now in the NBA Finals.

...similar paths can be seen with Portland and Milwaukee...both franchises refusing prolonged rebuilds and instead maintaining competitive rosters to develop and maintain or improve the value of all their assets.

I feel confident that Weltman and Hammond, who built or were key in assembling, two of those rosters are following that similar trajectory.


So you are going to use the extremely unlikely scenarios of Kawhi and Giannis as examples to why what you are saying works.

Kawhi - forced his way out of a winning spurs organization and was traded directly for Derozen (drafted 9th and only one team removed for both players) as a last ditch gamble by Toronto after saying he wasn’t likely resigning. They are screwed if he leaves next season after they lose to GS btw.

Giannis - drafted 15th and is the poster boy now for taking the risk of drafting measurables early in the draft despite the Bruno Caboclos and Thon Makers of the world proving that to be an extreme rarity.

Needless to say, neither of these franchises would be where they are without these lucky breaks going their way landing these players. Milwaukee was 14 picks from not having Giannis and Toronto can thank Kawhi’s uncle.

Meanwhile Golden State drafts two perennial HOFers at #7 and #11 picks while also having #2 and #5 on their roster regardless. Draymond is maximized by finding him late in the 2nd round as the perfect complimentary piece but not someone you “build around”. And your using that as “proof”? :lol:


Seems legit.


Wrong.

Boston, San Antonio, Miami Utah, etc. All the best player development franchises in the NBA have this philosophy...they also happen to be some of the best franchises in NBA

Luck is part of sports, having the best infrastructure and competitive culture in place for when luck hits is what matters. The list is infinite of franchises squandering "luck."

The teams that maximize it, have a history of not just maximizing "luck" but maximizing all their assets top to bottom and creating the context for when luck strikes to squeeze out most they can out of it.

You can laugh all you want, but your laughing at the opinion of the best minds and franchises in NBA.


You miss the point entirely per usual.

Golden State drafting two HOF players at #7 and #11 isn’t luck, nor is it an example of “remaining competitive” enough that acquiring them was a calculated plan years in the making.

Giannis getting passed on 14 other teams and becoming arguably the best player in the NBA and Kawhi leaving a winning situation, and arguably best run organization, to join an equally competitive roster is luck and anomaly examples.

Feel free to believe what you want.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#690 » by ezzzp » Sun May 26, 2019 8:36 pm

MagicMatic wrote:
Bakomagic wrote:Can something be considered “extremely unlikely” if three organizations have been able to do it recently ?


Can we say that these scenarios don’t happen if other teams weren’t there to take advantage of these arbitrary situations and luck of the draw picks?
Are we going to claim Brooklyn or NY as being genius organizations that calculated Kyrie and Durant would walk through their doors too? Or Kawhi with the Clippers?


Player movement isn't an arbitrary situation...its been increasing and its going to continue to increase. The new CBA has made it even more consistent.

Just in past 2-3 seasons: Paul George, Jimmy Butler, Kawhi, Anthony Davis, Porzingis, Kyrie....does that looks like "extremely unlikely?" :lol:

...even players that aren't top tier or even proven player are pushing their way out or taking QO's to control their destinations. Its a rarity that a player stays beyond 2 contracts. Player movement is a consistent event and an expected situation that the smart franchises have been strategizing around and utilizing to maintain or construct contender level rosters.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#691 » by ezzzp » Sun May 26, 2019 8:40 pm

MagicMatic wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
Wrong.

Boston, San Antonio, Miami Utah, etc. All the best player development franchises in the NBA have this philosophy...they also happen to be some of the best franchises in NBA

Luck is part of sports, having the best infrastructure and competitive culture in place for when luck hits is what matters. The list is infinite of franchises squandering "luck."

The teams that maximize it, have a history of not just maximizing "luck" but maximizing all their assets top to bottom and creating the context for when luck strikes to squeeze out most they can out of it.

You can laugh all you want, but your laughing at the opinion of the best minds and franchises in NBA.


You miss the point entirely per usual.

Golden State drafting two HOF players at #7 and #11 isn’t luck, nor is it an example of “remaining competitive” enough that acquiring them was a calculated plan years in the making.

Giannis getting passed on 14 other teams and becoming arguably the best player in the NBA and Kawhi leaving a winning situation, and arguably best run organization, to join an equally competitive roster is luck and anomaly examples.

Feel free to believe what you want.


I'm not missing anything...I'm not letting your derail the attention away about what the actual conditions Meyers created for those situations to thrive.

A 16 year rebuild isn't a calculated plan. Its a failure.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#692 » by VFX » Sun May 26, 2019 8:48 pm

ezzzp wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
Wrong.

Boston, San Antonio, Miami Utah, etc. All the best player development franchises in the NBA have this philosophy...they also happen to be some of the best franchises in NBA

Luck is part of sports, having the best infrastructure and competitive culture in place for when luck hits is what matters. The list is infinite of franchises squandering "luck."

The teams that maximize it, have a history of not just maximizing "luck" but maximizing all their assets top to bottom and creating the context for when luck strikes to squeeze out most they can out of it.

You can laugh all you want, but your laughing at the opinion of the best minds and franchises in NBA.


You miss the point entirely per usual.

Golden State drafting two HOF players at #7 and #11 isn’t luck, nor is it an example of “remaining competitive” enough that acquiring them was a calculated plan years in the making.

Giannis getting passed on 14 other teams and becoming arguably the best player in the NBA and Kawhi leaving a winning situation, and arguably best run organization, to join an equally competitive roster is luck and anomaly examples.

Feel free to believe what you want.


I'm not missing anything...I'm not letting your derail the attention away about what the actual conditions Meyers created for those situations to thrive.

A 16 year rebuild isn't a calculated plan. Its a failure.


Wrong again.

I’m pointing out that they utilized their high draft picks that became HOFers.

You know... the picks Orlando will be getting rid of for multiple years in exchange for vets other organizations are trying to offload in your ideal scenario.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#693 » by MasterGMer » Sun May 26, 2019 8:50 pm

Tanking just doesn't work especially with the new Lottery Odd. But I agree that a losing team has to rely on lottery to gain more talents long term or short term. But purely relying on tanking won't work.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#694 » by VFX » Sun May 26, 2019 8:51 pm

MasterGMer wrote:Tanking just doesn't work especially with the new Lottery Odd. But I agree that a losing team has to rely on lottery to gain more talents long term or short term. But purely relying on tanking won't work.


“Earning” a 6-12 pick isn’t tanking if your roster is simply bad. Why is this difficult to comprehend? Are we going to pretend Orlando doesn’t have the worst back court in the nba and getting an often injured Conley isn’t a solution long term?
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#695 » by ezzzp » Sun May 26, 2019 8:57 pm

MagicMatic wrote:
Wrong again. I’m pointing out that they utilized their high draft picks that became HOFers.

You know... the picks Orlando will be getting rid of for multiple years in exchange for vets other organizations are trying to offload in your ideal scenario. Take a seat.


You have been constantly saying the Magic not tanking hard enough to get picks were "centerpieces" are found and instead getting only 5th-6th pick. BUT now you are saying that 7 and 11 are were HOFers can be found just like GSW?!!! :lol:



MagicMatic wrote:You miss the point entirely per usual.


MagicMatic wrote:...not NCAA data. Reading comprehension.


and keep up the personal attacks while cowering behind your keyboard
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#696 » by VFX » Sun May 26, 2019 8:58 pm

ezzzp wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
Wrong again. I’m pointing out that they utilized their high draft picks that became HOFers.

You know... the picks Orlando will be getting rid of for multiple years in exchange for vets other organizations are trying to offload in your ideal scenario. Take a seat.


You have been constantly harping about the Magic not tanking hard enough to get picks were "centerpieces" are found and instead getting only 5th-6th pick. BUT now you are saying that 7 and 11 are were HOFers can be found just like GSW?!!! :lol:



MagicMatic wrote:You miss the point entirely per usual.


MagicMatic wrote:...not NCAA data. Reading comprehension.


and keep up the personal attacks while cowering behind your keyboard

:lol: You got me. I’m cowering.

And I never said the words “tank” or top 5 picks did I? All your imagination son. You can choose to make this personal if you wish. All I see is a handle and I’ve debated with far better posters on this board than yourself.

Oh yeah, but this is coming from someone that believes anyone with a sub.500 record is “tanking” LMAO. Credibility kinda goes out the window.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#697 » by ezzzp » Sun May 26, 2019 8:59 pm

MagicMatic wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
Wrong again. I’m pointing out that they utilized their high draft picks that became HOFers.

You know... the picks Orlando will be getting rid of for multiple years in exchange for vets other organizations are trying to offload in your ideal scenario. Take a seat.


You have been constantly harping about the Magic not tanking hard enough to get picks were "centerpieces" are found and instead getting only 5th-6th pick. BUT now you are saying that 7 and 11 are were HOFers can be found just like GSW?!!! :lol:



MagicMatic wrote:You miss the point entirely per usual.


MagicMatic wrote:...not NCAA data. Reading comprehension.


and keep up the personal attacks while cowering behind your keyboard

:lol: You got me. I’m cowering.


yep tough talk while hiding behind a keyboard
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#698 » by VFX » Sun May 26, 2019 9:05 pm

ezzzp wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
You have been constantly harping about the Magic not tanking hard enough to get picks were "centerpieces" are found and instead getting only 5th-6th pick. BUT now you are saying that 7 and 11 are were HOFers can be found just like GSW?!!! :lol:







and keep up the personal attacks while cowering behind your keyboard

:lol: You got me. I’m cowering.


yep tough talk while hiding behind a keyboard


Cry more.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#699 » by ezzzp » Sun May 26, 2019 9:07 pm

MagicMatic wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
MagicMatic wrote: :lol: You got me. I’m cowering.


yep tough talk while hiding behind a keyboard


Cry more.


yea keep talking tough while hiding behind your keyboard
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#700 » by VFX » Sun May 26, 2019 9:10 pm

ezzzp wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
ezzzp wrote:

yep tough talk while hiding behind a keyboard


Cry more.


yea keep talking tough while hiding behind your keyboard

I’ll take the suspension if mods actually feel like I’m directing personal attacks toward you. Yeah “cowering” lol.

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