Official Summer 2024 Magic Free Agency and Trade Ideas Thread 3.0

[Fortune Teller]

Another trade thread? We never learn.

[VFX]

Another trade thread? We never learn.

Change "Trade Thread" to "Development Thread".

That is the only thing people can really speculate on as Magic fans.

[Knightro]

I think we may need to think more creatively in terms of what Black might be closer to.. I can see a prime Ingles sort of player if he can continue his three point acumen. More athletic, especially defensively, probably won't be close to being as good of a shooter as Ingles was with his career highs, but more so being a primary playmaker in certain lineups where he could theoretically play SF and be surrounded by interesting lineups.

Again, not comparing playstyles really, just archetype instead of slotting him in as a PG.

He's using 12% of possessions out there, and when he does use a possession he's likely shooting a 3 (.358 3PAr) or attacking the basket and drawing a foul (.347 FTr). He's also locking down opposing PGs.

His assist to turnover ratio shows that he isn't ready to be our floor general or primary playmaker.

In college and highschool he WAS the primary playmaker and led his team in assists. Do you think his current performance is more about the role and being a rookie than it is about his archetype? Also, he's guarding PGs and as the saying goes you are the position you guard.

Don't try and over think this, AB is a PG.

He had an AST% of just 20.6% and just 6.4 AST/100 in college.

These are hardly what I would consider high end playmaker potential numbers.

[eyriq]

I agree. With these points. Not sure why AB is being left out of the pg discussion....

I have three explanations:

Camp 1: Fultz fans are slow to accept AB because they are attached to Fultz

Camp 2: Anti-Fultz fans are slow to accept AB because of perceived similarities between Fultz and AB

Camp 3: Win-now fans are slow to accept AB because we are ready to re-tool around Franchero and don't have time for player development.

[JoshuaPotter]

Another trade thread? We never learn.

Change "Trade Thread" to "Development Thread".

That is the only thing people can really speculate on as Magic fans.

It is like you have hacked into the minds of management. Perhaps this is even the duality of weham posting itself!

[eyriq]

I think we may need to think more creatively in terms of what Black might be closer to.. I can see a prime Ingles sort of player if he can continue his three point acumen. More athletic, especially defensively, probably won't be close to being as good of a shooter as Ingles was with his career highs, but more so being a primary playmaker in certain lineups where he could theoretically play SF and be surrounded by interesting lineups.

Again, not comparing playstyles really, just archetype instead of slotting him in as a PG.

He's using 12% of possessions out there, and when he does use a possession he's likely shooting a 3 (.358 3PAr) or attacking the basket and drawing a foul (.347 FTr). He's also locking down opposing PGs.

His assist to turnover ratio shows that he isn't ready to be our floor general or primary playmaker.

In college and highschool he WAS the primary playmaker and led his team in assists. Do you think his current performance is more about the role and being a rookie than it is about his archetype? Also, he's guarding PGs and as the saying goes you are the position you guard.

Don't try and over think this, AB is a PG.

He had an AST% of just 20.6% and just 6.4 AST/100 in college.

These are hardly what I would consider high end playmaker potential numbers.

You are moving the goal posts. We are talking about him being a PG, not a high end playmaker. There is clear evidence he can lead his team in assists and fill the role of primary playmaker. He literally did this.

You can find evaluations of him that state he's an elite passer with superb court vision if you want to approach the question of him being a high end primary playmaker. The upside is available for the high end primary playmaker skill set if you want to pivot that direction, but that pivot already concludes that he's a PG.

[CocoaFan]

How much money would you all offer Malik Monk in free agency?

I think you're going to have to offer him in the $18-$20M range. I would do it. He can start alongside Suggs until Black can compete with him for the starting spot. If Black takes over move Monk to backup and trade Cole. I'm just not a fan of Cole's every 5th game he has a good game. His defense is awful too. He just can't stay in front of anybody.

[Knightro]

You are moving the goal posts. We are talking about him being a PG, not a high end playmaker. There is clear evidence he can lead his team in assists and fill the role of primary playmaker. He literally did this.

You can find evaluations of him that state he's an elite passer with superb court vision if you want to approach the question of him being a high end primary playmaker. The upside is available for the high end primary playmaker skill set if you want to pivot that direction, but that pivot already concludes that he's a PG.

I mean...

Read on Twitter

Leading your team in assists is not that impressive of a feat when you compare it to how your peers are doing and what an above average amount is in your industry.

Markelle led the Magic in assists last year by a WIDE margin and most people strongly feel (yourself included) that he isn't a very good player and needs to be replaced, ya know?

Black averaging less than 4 APG on a team where he was on the court for almost 88% of the total minutes is really not the impressive feat you're suggesting it is.

[CocoaFan]

None. It's a hard veto on any guard acquisition.

Edit: the only guard rotation I want next season is AB/Suggs/Cole/Jett

Sickening

Eh, I just can't fathom using pre-extension cap space on a guard when we've already invested 3 lotto picks into the backcourt. It actually strikes me as incongruent. We need to use assets more efficiently, and pre-extension cap space can be used on a big like Claxton. Let the lotto talent blossom, and usher in the extension season with a young and hungry team.

The guard situation is what it is. If the guys we've spent picks and money on aren't good enough or not ready enough you have to make improvements. We've given Cole 4years and he's still inconsistent. Bringing in someone like Monk would replace Cole long term while Black and Howard are still developing.
When you do a 36 minute comparison on Claxton and Goga they aren't very different. Goga comes out as a slightly better shot blocker and a better foul shooter. I think you are going to have to give Claxton around $20M when you can get Goga for probably $8 or $9M. I like Claxton but not sure he's worth the money.

[eyriq]

You are moving the goal posts. We are talking about him being a PG, not a high end playmaker. There is clear evidence he can lead his team in assists and fill the role of primary playmaker. He literally did this.

You can find evaluations of him that state he's an elite passer with superb court vision if you want to approach the question of him being a high end primary playmaker. The upside is available for the high end primary playmaker skill set if you want to pivot that direction, but that pivot already concludes that he's a PG.

I mean...

Read on Twitter

Leading your team in assists is not that impressive of a feat when you compare it to how your peers are doing and what an above average amount is in your industry.

Markelle led the Magic in assists last year by a WIDE margin and most people strongly feel (yourself included) that he isn't a very good player and needs to be replaced, ya know?

Black averaging less than 4 APG on a team where he was on the court for almost 88% of the total minutes is really not the impressive feat you're suggesting it is.

Context is essential here. AB with 3.9 APG was 6th in the conference, 2nd in total assists.

You know how many the #1 APG player had in the conference? 5.6 assists per game. He was a senior at Kentucky. Cason Wallace averaged 4.3, the top freshman. AB was right behind him.

Come on man, you can do better than this.

[Knightro]

Context is essential here. AB with 3.9 APG was 6th in the conference, 2nd in total assists.

You know how many the #1 APG player had in the conference? 5.6 assists per game. He was a senior at Kentucky. Cason Wallace averaged 4.3, the top freshman. AB was right behind him.

Come on man, you can do better than this.

So can you my friend. Looking at pure APG isn't going to paint as accurate of a picture as AST% and AST per 100 possessions will.

Some teams play at a really slow pace and others teams play at a breakneck pace. Some players rarely come off the floor and other players play less minutes. Some players play with teammates who have the basketball a lot and others play on teams where they are the ones who dominate the ball.

All of these things should be factored in when talking about a stat like assists.

I know you like Anthony Black a lot, and I like him too, but you're portraying his stats as a lot more impressive than they actually were to better your own argument.

He was not and frankly has not ever been a particularly dynamic offensive player even dating back to high school where he only averaged 13-6-4 as a high school senior.

His calling card as a prospect has always been his size and his ability to do guard things at 6'7" 200 lbs. But he's never really been a good scorer or a good shot creator for others at any level of basketball.

[CocoaFan]

1. What player options, cap holds, etc. roster info am I missing?
2. Who are you keeping that I don't have their cap hold or guaranteed contract?
3. Who are you letting go of that I have on the roster?

Magic
Jonathan Isaac $17,400,000
Cole Anthony $12,900,000
Paolo Banchero $12,160,800
Wendell Carter Jr. $11,950,000
Jalen Suggs $9,188,385
Moritz Wagner $8,000,000
Anthony Black $7,607,760
Franz Wagner $7,007,092
Jett Howard $5,278,320
16th Overall $4,060,800

Total Salary $95,553,157
Cap Space $44,109,195
Tax Space $77,046,843
1st Apron Space $84,046,843
2nd Apron Space $94,546,843
Cap Holds $2,337,648


Magic Questions
1. What does Orlando do with all the cap space?

Keep Ingles, sign Claxton, restock the green goblins

I really think we can do better than retaining Ingles. If Isaac is still healthy we could split his minutes between him and Howard or if Isaac isn't healthy we could get someone like Taurean Prince or Dario Saric for probably the same money. Joe is just so slow that he really can't guard anyone or scramble for loose balls. He's a great guy and open shooter, but I think the veteran leadership thing is pretty overrated. I'm sure it's great for Black, Howard and maybe Suggs but the rest of the team has played enough where that shouldn't be a big factor.

[CocoaFan]

After next year, Franz & Suggs will need new contracts, and PB the year after.
I'd overpay for LaMello Ball, He'd make it real easy for Franz & PB.

Cole, Jett, 4 1sts (24, 25,26 & 28), and 2 2nds.

Still have $$ for Vet FAs.

Ball/AB/FA
Suggs/FA (Monk)
Franz/Houstan
PB/JI
WCJ/MW/Goga

Great player, but another guy that's always injured.

[eyriq]

Context is essential here. AB with 3.9 APG was 6th in the conference, 2nd in total assists.

You know how many the #1 APG player had in the conference? 5.6 assists per game. He was a senior at Kentucky. Cason Wallace averaged 4.3, the top freshman. AB was right behind him.

Come on man, you can do better than this.

So can you my friend. Looking at pure APG isn't going to paint as accurate of a picture as AST% and AST per 100 possessions will.

Some teams play at a really slow pace and others teams play at a breakneck pace. Some players rarely come off the floor and other players play less minutes. Some players play with teammates who have the basketball a lot and others play on teams where they are the ones who dominate the ball.

All of these things should be factored in when talking about a stat like assists.

I know you like Anthony Black a lot, and I like him too, but you're portraying his stats as a lot more impressive than they actually were to better your own argument.

He was not and frankly has not ever been a particularly dynamic offensive player even dating back to high school where he only averaged 13-6-4 as a high school senior.

His calling card as a prospect has always been his size and his ability to do guard things at 6'7" 200 lbs. But he's never really been a good scorer or a good shot creator for others at any level of basketball.

I'm literally just arguing that he's a PG. Because, like, he's been a PG at every level he's played.

You keep moving the goal posts because the argument he's not a PG is dumb and can't be credibly made. I get it.

I don't really care if he's an elite playmaking prospect and have never argued he is. You are over here throwing NBA Shelvin Mack comps into the mix because one averaged 3.9 assists in the NBA and the other averaged 3.9 assists in college. That's as disingenuous as it comes.

[eyriq]

Sickening

Eh, I just can't fathom using pre-extension cap space on a guard when we've already invested 3 lotto picks into the backcourt. It actually strikes me as incongruent. We need to use assets more efficiently, and pre-extension cap space can be used on a big like Claxton. Let the lotto talent blossom, and usher in the extension season with a young and hungry team.

The guard situation is what it is. If the guys we've spent picks and money on aren't good enough or not ready enough you have to make improvements. We've given Cole 4years and he's still inconsistent. Bringing in someone like Monk would replace Cole long term while Black and Howard are still developing.
When you do a 36 minute comparison on Claxton and Goga they aren't very different. Goga comes out as a slightly better shot blocker and a better foul shooter. I think you are going to have to give Claxton around $20M when you can get Goga for probably $8 or $9M. I like Claxton but not sure he's worth the money.

I wouldn't mind upgrading Cole at all!

[Knightro]

I'm literally just arguing that he's a PG. Because, like, he's been a PG at every level he's played.

You keep moving the goal posts because the argument he's not a PG is dumb and can't be credibly made. I get it.

I don't really care if he's an elite playmaking prospect and have never argued he is. You are over here throwing NBA Shelvin Mack comps into the mix because one averaged 3.9 assists in the NBA and the other averaged 3.9 assists in college. That's as disingenuous as it comes.

You're still missing my point.

Being a "point guard" doesn't matter if you're not a good one, ya know?

Yes Anthony Black played PG in high school. Yes Anthony Black played PG in college. But no, he didn't play at a particularly high level offensively at either one of those levels.

Black also hasn't really YET shown - and to be completely fair to him he's barely out of his teens and still quite raw, so I am not writing him off by any means - very much in his limited NBA burn that would lead me to believe he's ready to actually play point guard at the most basic functioning level.

He basically played as a 3&D wing when he started games at "point guard" for the Magic. He initiated pretty much zero sets. The few times per game he did dribble the ball up, he simply passed it as soon as he crossed halfcourt and then went and planted himself in a corner or on the wing.

[eyriq]

I'm literally just arguing that he's a PG. Because, like, he's been a PG at every level he's played.

You keep moving the goal posts because the argument he's not a PG is dumb and can't be credibly made. I get it.

I don't really care if he's an elite playmaking prospect and have never argued he is. You are over here throwing NBA Shelvin Mack comps into the mix because one averaged 3.9 assists in the NBA and the other averaged 3.9 assists in college. That's as disingenuous as it comes.

You're still missing my point.

Being a "point guard" doesn't matter if you're not a good one, ya know?

Yes Anthony Black played PG in high school. Yes Anthony Black played PG in college. But no, he didn't play at a particularly high level offensively at either one of those levels.

Black also hasn't really YET shown - and to be completely fair to him he's barely out of his teens and still quite raw, so I am not writing him off by any means - very much in his limited NBA burn that would lead me to believe he's ready to actually play point guard at the most basic functioning level.

He basically played as a 3&D wing when he started games at "point guard" for the Magic. He initiated pretty much zero sets. The few times per game he did dribble the ball up, he simply passed it as soon as he crossed halfcourt and then went and planted himself in a corner or on the wing.

He's in a low usage role by design and when he does consume a possession it's to finish the play with a shot in most cases. To his credit he has a higher offensive rating than Fultz or Cole. He's doing his job.

Edit: and on defense he's an elite PG. So, there's that too.

[eyriq]

Read on Twitter

?t=J463Iu7mxwcYnIRhkBViZA&s=19

[Knightro]

Like we often destroy Gary Harris (and Fultz to a lesser extent) on a routine basis in the game threads for "getting cardio" out there, but Anthony Black started 29 games, playing over 21 MPG in those games, and averaged just 5-3-2 with a miniscule 11.5 USG rate.

I get that he's super young, but you can't just have a guy out there doing that little on offense and expect to maintain success as a team. It puts way too much pressure on the other guys.

If the dude is an A++ game changing defender or something like Isaac, then it helps, but I wouldn't say Black is there yet either.

[eyriq]

Like we often destroy Gary Harris (and Fultz to a lesser extent) on a routine basis in the game threads for "getting cardio" out there, but Anthony Black started 29 games, playing over 21 MPG in those games, and averaged just 5-3-2 with a miniscule 11.5 USG rate.

I get that he's super young, but you can't just have a guy out there doing that little on offense and expect to maintain success as a team. It puts way too much pressure on the other guys.

If the dude is an A++ game changing defender or something like Isaac, then it helps, but I wouldn't say Black is there yet either.

AB has more sweater vest points that Fultz and Harris COMBINED