2025-2026 Regular Season Game 3: Chicago Bulls (1-0) at Orlando Magic (1-1) - 7pm ET

[DiplomaticMagic]

Watch on YouTube

This popped up on my feed lol

[pepe1991]

That Boston team had 29 year olds Kemba and Hayward. Be serious. Orlando's top 6 were all 24 and younger. Weighted average age for Boston's top six was 25.4, for Orlando it was 22.6.

News flash, experience matters. Those teams were at different stages of their respective builds.

Same goes for the Cavs, that was a veteran heavy team. Concepts for you: rebuild stages, the effect of experience on offense, and the importance of context when making comparisons.

Regarding the rest, yes, that is playmaking. Players developing into better playmakers is important.

Hawyard barely played in the playoffs. They had it in the same sense Orlando is having JI right now i guess. Be serious.

He was pimping their regular season offense. Try to keep up, sir

Huh?

Magic, impact vise, one of most important players of that season was 36 years old.

This was list of 3 of worst Magic players, net rating vise, for a season:

Anthony Black- the worst (rookie)
Paolo Banchero - second worst- highest usage
Markelle Fultz- third worst - starter


This was list of Magic best players, for a season, net rating vise:

Jonathan Isaac- bench player (age 26)
Joe Ingles- bench player ( 36)
Franz Wagner - starter (age 22)
Gary Harris - part time starter ( age 29)


Without really needing to explain any of this, Magic kept winning because their bench was actually best bench in nba. Magic starters were, at best capable of not getting blown out, ( minus Franz) and this is why Mosley's 11-12 men lineups actually worked. Because staggering and separating starters was best thing he could do, given starters sucked at basketball.


In Boston- opposite spectrum, can you guess who was guy with best net rating ? Tatum.
Very same Jayson Tatum, at age of 23, Paolo's current age, took team to finals.

This is where your whole concept of "wing hub" argument crumbles. Advanced stats are nothing but measurable data for impact on basketball games. Year after year after year, guys like Dončić, Tatum, Lebron , Victor come out with incredible impact numbers, regardless of age, because year after year smart people adjust their analytics to be more accurate.
And yet, year after year after year every single data that points out Tatum is elite player, shows that Banchero simply isn't.
You watch Celtics today, with all those "superstar role players" + Brown. Literally, they are 0-3 without Tatum. All years of evidence point out Tatum is best player. He is out, they suck. This is as white & black as it gets.

Yet, Magic continue to play better whenever Paolo Banchero is either on bench or out of games. Because his plays= high usage, poor spacing, fishing for fouls, poor defense, bad shot selection, poor rim protection, mediocre rebounding aren't really trait of winning basketball style. On top of that, his ball hogging doesn't lead to "great playmaking" or makes anybody around him better, it just gives him counting stat of APG to appear better at making plays than he is. You have living evidence called Demar Derozan of player who Banchero is most similar to, and who always had incredible counting stats, yet team after team played better without him ,despite him having on surface, superstar- like -numbers. One Austin Reaves is much better playmaker than Banchero. By wide margin.

Franz Wagner won world cup and Eurobasket with Schorder being playmaker.

Whole your concept of "hub wing offense" is just using phrasing of words to avoid reality. You can call it how it's actually called. Bad offense without point guard.

[GelbeWand09]

Hawyard barely played in the playoffs. They had it in the same sense Orlando is having JI right now i guess. Be serious.

He was pimping their regular season offense. Try to keep up, sir

Huh?

Magic, impact vise, one of most important players of that season was 36 years old.

This was list of 3 of worst Magic players, net rating vise, for a season:

Anthony Black- the worst (rookie)
Paolo Banchero - second worst- highest usage
Markelle Fultz- third worst - starter


This was list of Magic best players, for a season, net rating vise:

Jonathan Isaac- bench player (age 26)
Joe Ingles- bench player ( 36)
Franz Wagner - starter (age 22)
Gary Harris - part time starter ( age 29)


Without really needing to explain any of this, Magic kept winning because their bench was actually best bench in nba. Magic starters were, at best capable of not getting blown out, ( minus Franz) and this is why Mosley's 11-12 men lineups actually worked. Because staggering and separating starters was best thing he could do, given starters sucked at basketball.


In Boston- opposite spectrum, can you guess who was guy with best net rating ? Tatum.
Very same Jayson Tatum, at age of 23, Paolo's current age, took team to finals.

This is where your whole concept of "wing hub" argument crumbles. Advanced stats are nothing but measurable data for impact on basketball games. Year after year after year, guys like Dončić, Tatum, Lebron , Victor come out with incredible impact numbers, regardless of age, because year after year smart people adjust their analytics to be more accurate.
And yet, year after year after year every single data that points out Tatum is elite player, shows that Banchero simply isn't.
You watch Celtics today, with all those "superstar role players" + Brown. Literally, they are 0-3 without Tatum. All years of evidence point out Tatum is best player. He is out, they suck. This is as white & black as it gets.

Yet, Magic continue to play better whenever Paolo Banchero is either on bench or out of games. Because his plays= high usage, poor spacing, fishing for fouls, poor defense, bad shot selection, poor rim protection, mediocre rebounding aren't really trait of winning basketball style. On top of that, his ball hogging doesn't lead to "great playmaking" or makes anybody around him better, it just gives him counting stat of APG to appear better at making plays than he is. You have living evidence called Demar Derozan of player who Banchero is most similar to, and who always had incredible counting stats, yet team after team played better without him ,despite him having on surface, superstar- like -numbers. One Austin Reaves is much better playmaker than Banchero. By wide margin.

Franz Wagner won world cup and Eurobasket with Schorder being playmaker.

Whole your concept of "hub wing offense" is just using phrasing of words to avoid reality. You can call it how it's actually called. Bad offense without point guard.

Where is the +3 button.

[GelbeWand09]

To be honest I thought several times over the summer that the winning streak team of last year around Franz and Suggs + Bane wins more games (better defense and more eff offense) without Paolo if he doesn't improve this season. Pretty sad if you think that of your 23 year old "star" player and all stats, advanced stars and the games/minutes without him confirm that. That's stuff you normally deal with in the rookie year of star players like Durant and Co but 2nd season they became impactful.

[zaymon]

He was pimping their regular season offense. Try to keep up, sir

Huh?

Magic, impact vise, one of most important players of that season was 36 years old.

This was list of 3 of worst Magic players, net rating vise, for a season:

Anthony Black- the worst (rookie)
Paolo Banchero - second worst- highest usage
Markelle Fultz- third worst - starter


This was list of Magic best players, for a season, net rating vise:

Jonathan Isaac- bench player (age 26)
Joe Ingles- bench player ( 36)
Franz Wagner - starter (age 22)
Gary Harris - part time starter ( age 29)


Without really needing to explain any of this, Magic kept winning because their bench was actually best bench in nba. Magic starters were, at best capable of not getting blown out, ( minus Franz) and this is why Mosley's 11-12 men lineups actually worked. Because staggering and separating starters was best thing he could do, given starters sucked at basketball.


In Boston- opposite spectrum, can you guess who was guy with best net rating ? Tatum.
Very same Jayson Tatum, at age of 23, Paolo's current age, took team to finals.

This is where your whole concept of "wing hub" argument crumbles. Advanced stats are nothing but measurable data for impact on basketball games. Year after year after year, guys like Dončić, Tatum, Lebron , Victor come out with incredible impact numbers, regardless of age, because year after year smart people adjust their analytics to be more accurate.
And yet, year after year after year every single data that points out Tatum is elite player, shows that Banchero simply isn't.
You watch Celtics today, with all those "superstar role players" + Brown. Literally, they are 0-3 without Tatum. All years of evidence point out Tatum is best player. He is out, they suck. This is as white & black as it gets.

Yet, Magic continue to play better whenever Paolo Banchero is either on bench or out of games. Because his plays= high usage, poor spacing, fishing for fouls, poor defense, bad shot selection, poor rim protection, mediocre rebounding aren't really trait of winning basketball style. On top of that, his ball hogging doesn't lead to "great playmaking" or makes anybody around him better, it just gives him counting stat of APG to appear better at making plays than he is. You have living evidence called Demar Derozan of player who Banchero is most similar to, and who always had incredible counting stats, yet team after team played better without him ,despite him having on surface, superstar- like -numbers. One Austin Reaves is much better playmaker than Banchero. By wide margin.

Franz Wagner won world cup and Eurobasket with Schorder being playmaker.

Whole your concept of "hub wing offense" is just using phrasing of words to avoid reality. You can call it how it's actually called. Bad offense without point guard.

Where is the +3 button.

We have to do it the old way :p

At least Pepe is in mid season form. We will waste his prime years on first round exits.

[zaymon]

To be honest I thought several times over the summer that the winning streak team of last year around Franz and Suggs + Bane wins more games (better defense and more eff offense) without Paolo if he doesn't improve this season. Pretty sad if you think that of your 23 year old "star" player and all stats, advanced stars and the games/minutes without him confirm that. That's stuff you normally deal with in the rookie year of star players like Durant and Co but 2nd season they became impactful.

Every player we drafted #1 was a star and took us to the finals. We just need to believe harder and not look at reality. Reality is frustrating and demands tough choices.

[pepe1991]

Huh?

Magic, impact vise, one of most important players of that season was 36 years old.

This was list of 3 of worst Magic players, net rating vise, for a season:

Anthony Black- the worst (rookie)
Paolo Banchero - second worst- highest usage
Markelle Fultz- third worst - starter


This was list of Magic best players, for a season, net rating vise:

Jonathan Isaac- bench player (age 26)
Joe Ingles- bench player ( 36)
Franz Wagner - starter (age 22)
Gary Harris - part time starter ( age 29)


Without really needing to explain any of this, Magic kept winning because their bench was actually best bench in nba. Magic starters were, at best capable of not getting blown out, ( minus Franz) and this is why Mosley's 11-12 men lineups actually worked. Because staggering and separating starters was best thing he could do, given starters sucked at basketball.


In Boston- opposite spectrum, can you guess who was guy with best net rating ? Tatum.
Very same Jayson Tatum, at age of 23, Paolo's current age, took team to finals.

This is where your whole concept of "wing hub" argument crumbles. Advanced stats are nothing but measurable data for impact on basketball games. Year after year after year, guys like Dončić, Tatum, Lebron , Victor come out with incredible impact numbers, regardless of age, because year after year smart people adjust their analytics to be more accurate.
And yet, year after year after year every single data that points out Tatum is elite player, shows that Banchero simply isn't.
You watch Celtics today, with all those "superstar role players" + Brown. Literally, they are 0-3 without Tatum. All years of evidence point out Tatum is best player. He is out, they suck. This is as white & black as it gets.

Yet, Magic continue to play better whenever Paolo Banchero is either on bench or out of games. Because his plays= high usage, poor spacing, fishing for fouls, poor defense, bad shot selection, poor rim protection, mediocre rebounding aren't really trait of winning basketball style. On top of that, his ball hogging doesn't lead to "great playmaking" or makes anybody around him better, it just gives him counting stat of APG to appear better at making plays than he is. You have living evidence called Demar Derozan of player who Banchero is most similar to, and who always had incredible counting stats, yet team after team played better without him ,despite him having on surface, superstar- like -numbers. One Austin Reaves is much better playmaker than Banchero. By wide margin.

Franz Wagner won world cup and Eurobasket with Schorder being playmaker.

Whole your concept of "hub wing offense" is just using phrasing of words to avoid reality. You can call it how it's actually called. Bad offense without point guard.

Where is the +3 button.

We have to do it the old way :p

At least Pepe is in mid season form. We will waste his prime years on first round exits.

I don't even want any of this. I don't want to argue or talk about same old stuff over and over again. But entire success of 2023-24 team was built on bench pick&roll of M. Wagner & Joe Ingles with Isaac playing very elite rim defense and few blessing injuries like Fultz missing half of a season and on top of that, several players shot 3% way above their base level and never came close to those numbers since ( Carter, Suggs, Black , Isaac ).

And those mirages of shooting weren't even close to be sustainable.
Carter is career 31,6% guy who shot 37,4% that year.
Black is 34,4% guy who shot 39,4%
Isaac is 32,2% guy who shot 37,5%
Suggs is 33,1% guy who shot 39,7%

Shooting 5-6% above your base level was always unsustainable. And despite all this, offense was still complete a**, as i pointed in first post, all worst teams on offense were blatant tankers. Like, best team with worst offense had 31-51 record


Last few years i personally think, and i know i'm not only one, that problem Magic offense just manifests through shooting numbers but root problem isn't (just) shooting. It's complete lack of structure within flow of the offense that is very common for teams without lead guards.

How it manifests? Desperation shots.

Two teams who took most shots with 4-0 shots at shot clock last year ?
Point-guard-less Nets ( 26-56 ) and point guard- less Magic (41-41).
In mix with second most FGA taken with pressure of shot clock, Magic were also 4th worst in efficiency in same shots. 39% EFG.

Just to give context of this, if somebody thinks we talk about some small sample size. No. Magic averaged 9,7 extra late-in shot clock- shots- a game.
Those brick laying under pressure made 11,3% of all shots they took.

Can you guess who led league in most 3 point shots taken with 0-4 sec on the clock?

Spoiler:

You know it without clicking

14% of all 3s were taken with clock pressure.

Can you guess efficiency of 3 ball in such shots? 24,5%. 9th worst. And pretty much all worst teams either attempted way less shots OR were tanking teams.

To me pointing out shooting sucks is easy. Superficial. Not that insightful, bit of amateurish and even simple-minded way of thinking. All players can make open shots at high rate if you put them in situation where such shots come easy, with good looks and within good flow. Nobody plays with Jokić and has worst shooting season of his life. Because Jokić will find you, and those shots will be shooting practice difficult.
Nobody has worst shooting years with Lebron. Because Lebron will find you, his gravity will tie defense to him and shooter will have field day.

There was some interview with Zubac as him and Harden on start played without any chemistry, and he said that Harden called him to private practice to learn what he likes to do in pick&roll, and after that they are one of best pick&roll duos. But stuff like that is possible because Harden is play maker who understands offense.

Magic simply do not have that guy who will control offense. So entire team is held hostage of basketball ideology that only "works" when best player is top 3 player in the world but happens to be a wing. In reality ,such player(s) would work regardless of ideology.
Suggs and Bane are still more comfortable off ball than on ball, and Magic still rely heavily on players who aren't good decision makers to make decisions.

Such basketball decisions put ceiling on team for no reason and boil down to front office that has poor understanding of modern basketball. Nothing more. Nothing less.

[eyriq]

Hawyard barely played in the playoffs. They had it in the same sense Orlando is having JI right now i guess. Be serious.

He was pimping their regular season offense. Try to keep up, sir

Huh?

Magic, impact vise, one of most important players of that season was 36 years old.

This was list of 3 of worst Magic players, net rating vise, for a season:

Anthony Black- the worst (rookie)
Paolo Banchero - second worst- highest usage
Markelle Fultz- third worst - starter


This was list of Magic best players, for a season, net rating vise:

Jonathan Isaac- bench player (age 26)
Joe Ingles- bench player ( 36)
Franz Wagner - starter (age 22)
Gary Harris - part time starter ( age 29)


Without really needing to explain any of this, Magic kept winning because their bench was actually best bench in nba. Magic starters were, at best capable of not getting blown out, ( minus Franz) and this is why Mosley's 11-12 men lineups actually worked. Because staggering and separating starters was best thing he could do, given starters sucked at basketball.


In Boston- opposite spectrum, can you guess who was guy with best net rating ? Tatum.
Very same Jayson Tatum, at age of 23, Paolo's current age, took team to finals.

This is where your whole concept of "wing hub" argument crumbles. Advanced stats are nothing but measurable data for impact on basketball games. Year after year after year, guys like Dončić, Tatum, Lebron , Victor come out with incredible impact numbers, regardless of age, because year after year smart people adjust their analytics to be more accurate.
And yet, year after year after year every single data that points out Tatum is elite player, shows that Banchero simply isn't.
You watch Celtics today, with all those "superstar role players" + Brown. Literally, they are 0-3 without Tatum. All years of evidence point out Tatum is best player. He is out, they suck. This is as white & black as it gets.

Yet, Magic continue to play better whenever Paolo Banchero is either on bench or out of games. Because his plays= high usage, poor spacing, fishing for fouls, poor defense, bad shot selection, poor rim protection, mediocre rebounding aren't really trait of winning basketball style. On top of that, his ball hogging doesn't lead to "great playmaking" or makes anybody around him better, it just gives him counting stat of APG to appear better at making plays than he is. You have living evidence called Demar Derozan of player who Banchero is most similar to, and who always had incredible counting stats, yet team after team played better without him ,despite him having on surface, superstar- like -numbers. One Austin Reaves is much better playmaker than Banchero. By wide margin.

Franz Wagner won world cup and Eurobasket with Schorder being playmaker.

Whole your concept of "hub wing offense" is just using phrasing of words to avoid reality. You can call it how it's actually called. Bad offense without point guard.

Raw on/off and single-season net ratings are role-biased; starters absorb hardest minutes while low-usage bench guys benefit from softer units, so “bench > starters” is misleading. Tatum’s 23-year leap happened inside elite spacing/defense; context matters and Paolo is now in similar context. High usage isn’t the problem, bending defenses is. DeRozan comp misses: different rim pressure, size, and defensive arc. Use a better lense: ESPN NET POINTS. Orlando’s ceiling is wing hub + guard release + elite D; clean the geometry and turnover hygiene and enjoy the dubs.

[basketballRob]

Where is the +3 button.

We have to do it the old way

At least Pepe is in mid season form. We will waste his prime years on first round exits.

I don't even want any of this. I don't want to argue or talk about same old stuff over and over again. But entire success of 2023-24 team was built on bench pick&roll of M. Wagner & Joe Ingles with Isaac playing very elite rim defense and few blessing injuries like Fultz missing half of a season and on top of that, several players shot 3% way above their base level and never came close to those numbers since ( Carter, Suggs, Black , Isaac ).

And those mirages of shooting weren't even close to be sustainable.
Carter is career 31,6% guy who shot 37,4% that year.
Black is 34,4% guy who shot 39,4%
Isaac is 32,2% guy who shot 37,5%
Suggs is 33,1% guy who shot 39,7%

Shooting 5-6% above your base level was always unsustainable. And despite all this, offense was still complete a**, as i pointed in first post, all worst teams on offense were blatant tankers. Like, best team with worst offense had 31-51 record


Last few years i personally think, and i know i'm not only one, that problem Magic offense just manifests through shooting numbers but root problem isn't (just) shooting. It's complete lack of structure within flow of the offense that is very common for teams without lead guards.

How it manifests? Desperation shots.

Two teams who took most shots with 4-0 shots at shot clock last year ?
Point-guard-less Nets ( 26-56 ) and point guard- less Magic (41-41).
In mix with second most FGA taken with pressure of shot clock, Magic were also 4th worst in efficiency in same shots. 39% EFG.

Just to give context of this, if somebody thinks we talk about some small sample size. No. Magic averaged 9,7 extra late-in shot clock- shots- a game.
Those brick laying under pressure made 11,3% of all shots they took.

Can you guess who led league in most 3 point shots taken with 0-4 sec on the clock?

Spoiler:

You know it without clicking

14% of all 3s were taken with clock pressure.

Can you guess efficiency of 3 ball in such shots? 24,5%. 9th worst. And pretty much all worst teams either attempted way less shots OR were tanking teams.

To me pointing out shooting sucks is easy. Superficial. Not that insightful, bit of amateurish and even simple-minded way of thinking. All players can make open shots at high rate if you put them in situation where such shots come easy, with good looks and within good flow. Nobody plays with Jokić and has worst shooting season of his life. Because Jokić will find you, and those shots will be shooting practice difficult.
Nobody has worst shooting years with Lebron. Because Lebron will find you, his gravity will tie defense to him and shooter will have field day.

There was some interview with Zubac as him and Harden on start played without any chemistry, and he said that Harden called him to private practice to learn what he likes to do in pick&roll, and after that they are one of best pick&roll duos. But stuff like that is possible because Harden is play maker who understands offense.

Magic simply do not have that guy who will control offense. So entire team is held hostage of basketball ideology that only "works" when best player is top 3 player in the world but happens to be a wing. In reality ,such player(s) would work regardless of ideology.
Suggs and Bane are still more comfortable off ball than on ball, and Magic still rely heavily on players who aren't good decision makers to make decisions.

Such basketball decisions put ceiling on team for no reason and boil down to front office that has poor understanding of modern basketball. Nothing more. Nothing less.

I think Black and Suggs can reach nearly 40% from 3 again this season if everyone is healthy. Neither Black or Suggs are good at creating 3s on their own. Suggs is at 714, and Black is at 400 currently.

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using RealGM mobile app

[Last Guardian]

Hawyard barely played in the playoffs. They had it in the same sense Orlando is having JI right now i guess. Be serious.

He was pimping their regular season offense. Try to keep up, sir

Huh?

Magic, impact vise, one of most important players of that season was 36 years old.

This was list of 3 of worst Magic players, net rating vise, for a season:

Anthony Black- the worst (rookie)
Paolo Banchero - second worst- highest usage
Markelle Fultz- third worst - starter


This was list of Magic best players, for a season, net rating vise:

Jonathan Isaac- bench player (age 26)
Joe Ingles- bench player ( 36)
Franz Wagner - starter (age 22)
Gary Harris - part time starter ( age 29)


Without really needing to explain any of this, Magic kept winning because their bench was actually best bench in nba. Magic starters were, at best capable of not getting blown out, ( minus Franz) and this is why Mosley's 11-12 men lineups actually worked. Because staggering and separating starters was best thing he could do, given starters sucked at basketball.


In Boston- opposite spectrum, can you guess who was guy with best net rating ? Tatum.
Very same Jayson Tatum, at age of 23, Paolo's current age, took team to finals.

This is where your whole concept of "wing hub" argument crumbles. Advanced stats are nothing but measurable data for impact on basketball games. Year after year after year, guys like Dončić, Tatum, Lebron , Victor come out with incredible impact numbers, regardless of age, because year after year smart people adjust their analytics to be more accurate.
And yet, year after year after year every single data that points out Tatum is elite player, shows that Banchero simply isn't.
You watch Celtics today, with all those "superstar role players" + Brown. Literally, they are 0-3 without Tatum. All years of evidence point out Tatum is best player. He is out, they suck. This is as white & black as it gets.

Yet, Magic continue to play better whenever Paolo Banchero is either on bench or out of games. Because his plays= high usage, poor spacing, fishing for fouls, poor defense, bad shot selection, poor rim protection, mediocre rebounding aren't really trait of winning basketball style. On top of that, his ball hogging doesn't lead to "great playmaking" or makes anybody around him better, it just gives him counting stat of APG to appear better at making plays than he is. You have living evidence called Demar Derozan of player who Banchero is most similar to, and who always had incredible counting stats, yet team after team played better without him ,despite him having on surface, superstar- like -numbers. One Austin Reaves is much better playmaker than Banchero. By wide margin.

Franz Wagner won world cup and Eurobasket with Schorder being playmaker.

Whole your concept of "hub wing offense" is just using phrasing of words to avoid reality. You can call it how it's actually called. Bad offense without point guard.

Going to have to agree here unfortunately. Paolo/Franz are not even Hedo level playmakers. It was worth a shot to see if we could gain an edge on the competition, but it is a failed experiment.