Shams: The season is suspended / Coronavirus Thread

[BadMofoPimp]

Had a co-worker go to a routine Checkup with his doctor and said he was only patient they had.

Another co-worker went to Urgent Care due to stomache issues he has had for almost a week while he said he was only person there.

Appears people staying away from Doctors offices.

[spinedoc]

Wow, how about that for timing? I just found out Governor Lee just signed an executive order prohibiting non-emergency care. Looks like I'm done, closing right now and going home. I tried to stay in the fight as long as I could. Looks like I've been benched, DJ Augustin you are not alone!,lol.

[Gomagic44]

I was very hesitant to go myself while symptomatic.

Had a co-worker go to a routine Checkup with his doctor and said he was only patient they had.

Another co-worker went to Urgent Care due to stomache issues he has had for almost a week while he said he was only person there.

Appears people staying away from Doctors offices.

Sent from my HD1900 using RealGM mobile app

[BadMofoPimp]

I was very hesitant to go myself while symptomatic.

Had a co-worker go to a routine Checkup with his doctor and said he was only patient they had.

Another co-worker went to Urgent Care due to stomache issues he has had for almost a week while he said he was only person there.

Appears people staying away from Doctors offices.

Sent from my HD1900 using RealGM mobile app

Did you goto Emergency for testing?

[tiderulz]

Just going to get ahead of this and say it now; there is no good evidence that chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine, and especially azithromycin, affects outcomes for COVID19. It's not even approved by the FDA for use against COVID19. There needs to be clinical trials including humans with COVID19, which are in motion now, before this ever becomes standard of practice, and that could be several months from now. This is really bad messaging by the president.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/23/health/chloroquine-hydroxycholoroquine-drugs-explained/index.html

Go ahead a take a few moments to read about it. While you are correct that currently we only have small study evidence on two of the drugs, the CDC is recommending testing now and it has "great signals" in test-tube study. Obviously we need real, large human field trials, but to dismiss it outright is worse messaging than that of the president.

No, Swami isn't dismissing, he's urging caution, which is a proper thing to do. Contrast that with what Trump is doing, which is over hyping it. What are you having trouble seeing? The article you posted has it in bold type "Evidence only anecdotal, expert says". That is the complete opposite of Trump talking about it as a miracle drug.

but what exactly does that mean?

[tiderulz]

My numbers from last night at 9:20 pm from bing.com/covid

As of 9:20 pm Sunday Night

USA- 33,889 confirmed cases( 33,282 active, 179 recovered, 428 deaths)
Florida- 937 confirmed cases( 924 active, 0 RECOVERED, 13 deaths)
Seminole county has 19 cases and Orange county has 33 cases

California- 1468 confirmed cases
Illinois- 1049 confirmed cases
Michigan- 1035 confirmed cases
New Jersey- 1914 confirmed cases
Washington- 1996 confirmed cases

Than the big one- NEW YORK- 15,168 total cases

Today's numbers as of 8 PM

USA- 43,874 confirmed cases
Florida- 1227
Seminole county has 22 cases and orange county has 48 cases

California- 1802 confirmed cases
Illinois- 1285 confirmed cases
Michigan- 1328 confirmed cases
New Jersey- 2844 confirmed cases
Washington- 2221 confirmed cases

NEW YORK- 20,875 confirmed cases

China has 81,116 confirmed cases( 72,703 have recovered but still 5182 active cases)
South Korea has 8961 confirmed cases( 3166 have recovered but still 5684 active cases)
Italy has 63,927 confirmed cases( 7432 have recovered but still 50,418 active cases)
USA has 43,874 confirmed cases( 178 have recovered but still 43,138 active cases)

Being that China has a bigger population than the USA BY FAR, I don't think the USA would pass China's 81,116 confirmed cases but that's misleading cause more than 81,116 people in china had the virus but they weren't confirmed.

USA- has around 327 million population
China has around 1.386 billion population

maybe. but you dont think more people in the US have the virus and are not confirmed? we dont have testing to even know.

[tiderulz]

Read on Twitter

?s=21

Very good read

look at HongKong. they let up and got @$%@$-slapped by it

[tiderulz]

No, Swami isn't dismissing, he's urging caution, which is a proper thing to do. Contrast that with what Trump is doing, which is over hyping it. What are you having trouble seeing? The article you posted has it in bold type "Evidence only anecdotal, expert says". That is the complete opposite of Trump talking about it as a miracle drug.

The expert said that the small scale human test results are anecdotal, not all the lab tests on both COVID and the whole SARS family where is has been shown to be successful enough to warrant both the FDA and CDC to push for human trials...

"The reason Trump lauds the drugs is because they've been shown, in labs, to be effective against severe acute respiratory syndrome coronaviruses -- including the SARS strain that causes Covid-19 -- as well as other coronaviruses, the CDC said."

How does that fit Swami's "No good evidence" claim at all man?

I've read all about it. I want it to work out as much as the next person. If I knew that it could work with certainty, I'd prescribe it to anyone who came to the ER with COVID19 and take it myself.

But, I stand by my claim of "no good evidence." Yes, there have been merely case reports of patients getting better after receiving the drug, but who knows if this is causative or correlative. As you said, it's only anecdotal.

There are some studies that show it prevents proliferation of virus in test tubes. But, you can never simply extrapolate data from that to assume it will make any difference in live humans. More times than not, what we see in those isolated lab experiments doesn't translate to humans.

Which is why it's important to have large, randomized controlled trials before jumping to any conclusions about chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine. Scientists and doctors don't make real life decisions based on anecdotal reports, or case studies.

The Chinese have released statements that the medicines worked for their patients, but they also offered no data to back that claim up.

This is what the President said:

"It's shown very encouraging -- very, very encouraging early results. And we're going to be able to make that drug available almost immediately. And that's where the FDA has been so great. They -- they've gone through the approval process; it's been approved. And they did it -- they took it down from many, many months to immediate. So we're going to be able to make that drug available by prescription or states," Trump said.

He added: "Normally the FDA would take a long time to approve something like that, and it's -- it was approved very, very quickly and it's now approved, by prescription.

I wouldn't even characterize it as "encouraging." The quality of the evidence to back this statement up is poor. It is among the worst in terms of scientific research. When evaluating studies, there's a hierarchy in terms of quality of data to practice good evidenced-based medicine.



The FDA has not approved this drug to be used for COVID19. And they won't until they have large RCT's that prove it works and that it can be safely given to patients. This will take months. It is not immediate.

The FDA even released a statement contradicting the President:

"there are no FDA-approved therapeutics or drugs to treat, cure or prevent COVID-19." Because chloroquine has been approved for other purposes, doctors are legally allowed to prescribe it for the unapproved or "off-label" use of treating the coronavirus if they want. But its safety and effectiveness has not been proven with regard to the coronavirus. FDA Commissioner Dr. Stephen Hahn, speaking after Trump at the briefing, said that chloroquine would be tested through a "large, pragmatic clinical trial" with coronavirus patients.

My issue with the president's statement is with regard to "ramping up production" for immediate use and describing the evidence is "strong." Sure, ramp up production for those clinical trials, but the idea that we're going to start prescribing this medicine tomorrow or even a month from now without any evidence to back it up would be malpractice.

Again, the moment there is good, quality data that supports it, I'll be all for it. But we're too far away from that right now. I'm hoping we're on the other side of the curve by the time that data come out.

my question. does it cure it? who knows, studies and trials will tell the story. Does it provide any better protection than we currently have, which is zero? if so, and the side effects are tolerable, i would be for taking it to give me any type of resistance or protection.

[tiderulz]

Just an additional thought. I'm not advocating anything, I simply have more questions. I worry about others who find themselves in this tough spot. I have enough to retire right now. This virus is hitting at a time that finds me the best prepared in my lifetime. Others?, not so much. We could have a broader discussion about how Germany takes care of their people better as well. That same huge economy that has Americans working more, has draw backs on the other end of that as well. If left to their own devices, there would be foreclosures as far as the eye could see. Unemployment as high as 20-30%, and people saying to pull yourselves up by your own boot straps, whether you have boots or not. That leads us back to government, a discussion some are loathed to have. Like I said, its more complicated than that.

i'm basically resigned to the fact, i will never retire, not unless the stock market makes dramatic recoveries soon.

[spinedoc]

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/23/health/chloroquine-hydroxycholoroquine-drugs-explained/index.html

Go ahead a take a few moments to read about it. While you are correct that currently we only have small study evidence on two of the drugs, the CDC is recommending testing now and it has "great signals" in test-tube study. Obviously we need real, large human field trials, but to dismiss it outright is worse messaging than that of the president.

No, Swami isn't dismissing, he's urging caution, which is a proper thing to do. Contrast that with what Trump is doing, which is over hyping it. What are you having trouble seeing? The article you posted has it in bold type "Evidence only anecdotal, expert says". That is the complete opposite of Trump talking about it as a miracle drug.

but what exactly does that mean?

I don't think I understand your question. Swami put out a detailed post further explaining himself. I was supporting his position as being more prudent. What happens in a test tube is much different than what happens in the human body. Testing is required to find out causality, until then we don't have anything. Swami did acknowledge that testing was warranted, so both Swami and Ducklett agree there is promise, but nothing can be asserted beyond that. I believe that is where both were in disagreement or talking past one another. Does that help?

Edit: Saw a report that a couple took chloroquine phosphate, which is a fish tank cleaner, because of these reports. He's dead, and she is in critical condition. This is why it could be dangerous to put out false information, or misleading information at least. Facts matter.

[MagicFan101]

No, Swami isn't dismissing, he's urging caution, which is a proper thing to do. Contrast that with what Trump is doing, which is over hyping it. What are you having trouble seeing? The article you posted has it in bold type "Evidence only anecdotal, expert says". That is the complete opposite of Trump talking about it as a miracle drug.

but what exactly does that mean?

I don't think I understand your question. Swami put out a detailed post further explaining himself. I was supporting his position as being more prudent. What happens in a test tube is much different than what happens in the human body. Testing is required to find out causality, until then we don't have anything. Swami did acknowledge that testing was warranted, so both Swami and Ducklett agree there is promise, but nothing can be asserted beyond that. I believe that is where both were in disagreement or talking past one another. Does that help?

Edit: Saw a report that a couple took chloroquine phosphate, which is a fish tank cleaner because of these reports. He's dead, and she is in critical condition. This is why it could be dangerous to put out false information, or misleading information at least. Facts matter.

... perhaps we can fix stupid after all.

[spinedoc]

but what exactly does that mean?

I don't think I understand your question. Swami put out a detailed post further explaining himself. I was supporting his position as being more prudent. What happens in a test tube is much different than what happens in the human body. Testing is required to find out causality, until then we don't have anything. Swami did acknowledge that testing was warranted, so both Swami and Ducklett agree there is promise, but nothing can be asserted beyond that. I believe that is where both were in disagreement or talking past one another. Does that help?

Edit: Saw a report that a couple took chloroquine phosphate, which is a fish tank cleaner because of these reports. He's dead, and she is in critical condition. This is why it could be dangerous to put out false information, or misleading information at least. Facts matter.

... perhaps we can fix stupid after all.

Darwin would refer to that as natural selection.

[Gomagic44]

I was very hesitant to go myself while symptomatic.

Had a co-worker go to a routine Checkup with his doctor and said he was only patient they had.

Another co-worker went to Urgent Care due to stomache issues he has had for almost a week while he said he was only person there.

Appears people staying away from Doctors offices.

Sent from my HD1900 using RealGM mobile app

Did you goto Emergency for testing?

I'm currently waiting to be picked up. This phlebotomist dude it driving all over central Florida today. Ocala and then me.

Sent from my HD1900 using RealGM mobile app

[Gomagic44]

I agree in part. But when you have a moron up top pushing certain medications......maybe they had prexisting conditions and we're desperate to not catch it because they would die anyway. Maybe not that couple, but the next couple.

It disgusts me that there is so little accountability at the top. But most workers can get fired for much pettier things.

I think he said "what do we have to lose!?"

The meaning of the preamble of the Constitution for one.

"Promote the general welfare"

Or sacrifice the meek. All in the name of the dollar.

Sent from my HD1900 using RealGM mobile app

[tiderulz]

No, Swami isn't dismissing, he's urging caution, which is a proper thing to do. Contrast that with what Trump is doing, which is over hyping it. What are you having trouble seeing? The article you posted has it in bold type "Evidence only anecdotal, expert says". That is the complete opposite of Trump talking about it as a miracle drug.

but what exactly does that mean?

I don't think I understand your question. Swami put out a detailed post further explaining himself. I was supporting his position as being more prudent. What happens in a test tube is much different than what happens in the human body. Testing is required to find out causality, until then we don't have anything. Swami did acknowledge that testing was warranted, so both Swami and Ducklett agree there is promise, but nothing can be asserted beyond that. I believe that is where both were in disagreement or talking past one another. Does that help?

Edit: Saw a report that a couple took chloroquine phosphate, which is a fish tank cleaner, because of these reports. He's dead, and she is in critical condition. This is why it could be dangerous to put out false information, or misleading information at least. Facts matter.

i underlined what i was asking. from a medical perspective, what does "anecdotal" mean?

and for that couple, or anyone, you dont take something that has only part of some solution. i feel bad for them, but come on, you have to check these things. and when would anyone think taking something that is a fish tank cleaner would be good? its like saying, bleach kills bacteria, just gargle some bleach and you will be okay

[tiderulz]

I agree in part. But when you have a moron up top pushing certain medications......maybe they had prexisting conditions and we're desperate to not catch it because they would die anyway. Maybe not that couple, but the next couple.

It disgusts me that there is so little accountability at the top. But most workers can get fired for much pettier things.

I think he said "what do we have to lose!?"

The meaning of the preamble of the Constitution for one.

"Promote the general welfare"

Or sacrifice the meek. All in the name of the dollar.

Sent from my HD1900 using RealGM mobile app

yeah, but that is any rich person. that is our society, for better or worse, and they convince people to help them out further.

[Gomagic44]

I agree. But it's still disgusting. My new CEO is "rich". I got my phone stolen at work. She didn't owe me anything but found something in the companies insurance policy that will reimburse me 100%. She didn't have to do that. She cares. She wrote me a 150$ check from her own bank account before she found the insurance thing. Now she's arranged and paid for my testing. While it's in her interest to do so as she has more liability from me being sick than I do(I will live), she didn't have to.

You don't have to be a soulless douchebag to be rich. Doing bare minimum for those below you.

I watched this Spanish show on Netflix about the 1000 story prison and we treat those below us just like that.

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[basketballRob]

Had a co-worker go to a routine Checkup with his doctor and said he was only patient they had.

Another co-worker went to Urgent Care due to stomache issues he has had for almost a week while he said he was only person there.

Appears people staying away from Doctors offices.

After i heard that the virus was still present in the Diamond Princess, 17 days after the passengers were gone, i don't want to go anywhere people have been.

https://amp-usatoday-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/2905924001?amp_js_v=a3&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQFKAGwASA%3D#aoh=15850787798953&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.usatoday.com%2Fstory%2Ftravel%2Fcruises%2F2020%2F03%2F24%2Fcoronavirus-diamond-princess-cabin-surfaces-contaminated-cdc-report%2F2905924001%2F


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[Xatticus]

but what exactly does that mean?

I don't think I understand your question. Swami put out a detailed post further explaining himself. I was supporting his position as being more prudent. What happens in a test tube is much different than what happens in the human body. Testing is required to find out causality, until then we don't have anything. Swami did acknowledge that testing was warranted, so both Swami and Ducklett agree there is promise, but nothing can be asserted beyond that. I believe that is where both were in disagreement or talking past one another. Does that help?

Edit: Saw a report that a couple took chloroquine phosphate, which is a fish tank cleaner, because of these reports. He's dead, and she is in critical condition. This is why it could be dangerous to put out false information, or misleading information at least. Facts matter.

i underlined what i was asking. from a medical perspective, what does "anecdotal" mean?

and for that couple, or anyone, you dont take something that has only part of some solution. i feel bad for them, but come on, you have to check these things. and when would anyone think taking something that is a fish tank cleaner would be good? its like saying, bleach kills bacteria, just gargle some bleach and you will be okay

Anecdotal would just be any non-scientific observation. The hype about quinine was based on an observation of 20 people, as I understand it. This is essentially meaningless, though it might serve as the starting point for further examination.

The thing is... it's really easy to draw spurious conclusions from anecdotal evidence. For instance, if you examined any 20 positive cases of covid-19, you would expect some variation in outcomes and you could use any number of characteristics (hair color, eye color, height, etc...) to draw erroneous conclusions from those outcomes. If you flipped a coin 20 times and it came up heads on 13 of those flips, the obvious conclusion would be that heads are significantly more likely than tails, but we know that isn't really the case.

I don't find these jokes to be in good taste. These are frightened people in search of hope that latched onto words from an authority figure that should never have been spoken. This is why scientists choose their words so carefully. We should not be talking out of our asses right now.

I know there are many people that give credence to the words that come out of Trump's mouth, but this is a mistake. He has an adolescent's understanding of the world around him. The world seems very simple to the ignorant man, because the ignorant man lacks the knowledge to appreciate how little he knows. Listen to the experts. They have dedicated years of their lives to the study of their fields of specialty.

[spinedoc]

I don't think I understand your question. Swami put out a detailed post further explaining himself. I was supporting his position as being more prudent. What happens in a test tube is much different than what happens in the human body. Testing is required to find out causality, until then we don't have anything. Swami did acknowledge that testing was warranted, so both Swami and Ducklett agree there is promise, but nothing can be asserted beyond that. I believe that is where both were in disagreement or talking past one another. Does that help?

Edit: Saw a report that a couple took chloroquine phosphate, which is a fish tank cleaner, because of these reports. He's dead, and she is in critical condition. This is why it could be dangerous to put out false information, or misleading information at least. Facts matter.

i underlined what i was asking. from a medical perspective, what does "anecdotal" mean?

and for that couple, or anyone, you dont take something that has only part of some solution. i feel bad for them, but come on, you have to check these things. and when would anyone think taking something that is a fish tank cleaner would be good? its like saying, bleach kills bacteria, just gargle some bleach and you will be okay

Anecdotal would just be any non-scientific observation. The hype about quinine was based on an observation of 20 people, as I understand it. This is essentially meaningless, though it might serve as the starting point for further examination.

The thing is... it's really easy to draw spurious conclusions from anecdotal evidence. For instance, if you examined any 20 positive cases of covid-19, you would expect some variation in outcomes and you could use any number of characteristics (hair color, eye color, height, etc...) to draw erroneous conclusions from those outcomes. If you flipped a coin 20 times and it came up heads on 13 of those flips, the obvious conclusion would be that heads are significantly more likely than tails, but we know that isn't really the case.

I don't find these jokes to be in good taste. These are frightened people in search of hope that latched onto words from an authority figure that should never have been spoken. This is why scientists choose their words so carefully. We should not be talking out of our asses right now.

I know there are many people that give credence to the words that come out of Trump's mouth, but this is a mistake. He has an adolescent's understanding of the world around him. The world seems very simple to the ignorant man, because the ignorant man lacks the knowledge to appreciate how little he knows. Listen to the experts. They have dedicated years of their lives to the study of their fields of specialty.

Yeah, you're right. It's in poor taste, but how can you not think to ask someone? Humor is most successful if there is some truth to it, but probably not the right time.