Regular Season Game 3: Orlando Magic (1-1) at Toronto Raptors (2-1) - 7:30pm ET

[Skybox]

Vuc's performance doesn't concern me as much due to his unfavorable matchup with Gasol but where are the others? Great job by JI in a situational opportunity at C, but I don't see that as anything normal against most teams. Vuc (generally) bulldozes new-wave Centers with his old school size, smarts and footwork but Gasol out Old-Schools him every time.C'mon AG- let's go!

[Rainwater]

It is mindblowing to me that we have 4-10 pages of "Mo is trash" when he wasn't even the worst player tonight. That goes to AG or Vuc. How do you pay these guys huge contracts to be benched because they suck? It is damn shameful. If either of these losers had a backbone, they would come out for the Raptors, the team who thrashed them in the playoffs, and give them 110%. Instead, we got losers.

AG is the golden child for the magic, his wrongs are are always easily forgiven. While Vuc does get his hate but without him the magic would be pure trash.

People dog on AG all of the time, myself included. Vuc was in this game and we were pure trash.

Out of all the players on this team people are really forgiving of AG after a bad bad game typically blaming it on youth, coaching, spacing, injury or some other excuse. With out Vuc this team might be the worse in the league.

[MagicStarwipe]

AG is the golden child for the magic, his wrongs are are always easily forgiven. While Vuc does get his hate but without him the magic would be pure trash.

People dog on AG all of the time, myself included. Vuc was in this game and we were pure trash.

Out of all the players on this team people are really forgiving of AG after a bad bad game typically blaming it on youth, coaching, spacing, injury or some other excuse. With out Vuc this team might be the worse in the league.

You say that because you have AG hate blinders on. 80% of your posts are negative posts about AG. He gets criticised and defended just as every other player on the team gets criticised and defended. Vuc, Bamba, Fournier, DJ, Isaac... everyone. You just don't like that he gets defended at all because you don't like him.

[drsd]

You say that because you have AG hate blinders on. 80% of your posts are negative posts about AG.

Are you seriously defending Gordon in this game thread !?!?!?!?!?


..

[drsd]

One bright light: looks like Aminu has rediscovered his shooting form.

[Bergmaniac]

We can talk all day about coaching, plays run, rotations, and all that, but the main issue so far is we are just not shooting well at all even given the limited offensive talent on the team. You just can't win much in this league when you are shooting 26% from 3 and Ross, Vuc and AG are below 20% which is absurd. Midrange shooting has been pretty terrible outside of Fultz too. Even Fournier's solid scoring efficiency numbers are mostly thanks to his driving, his 3 point shot has gone missing in the last 2 games. So far the team has shot 23% on wide open 3s which is horrendous, and it's not just because of Fultz and MCW being left open intentionally. Most of Vucevic's 3 point attempts had been wide open and he's shot 9.1% on most of them. DJ is shooting 20% on pull-up 3s.

Also, I feel it's time for Clifford to stop playing DJ and Evan together, they are getting killed on D (114 DRTG).

Isaac at centre won't work full-time, but it could be quite effective in certain matchups.

[j-ragg]

AG had another bad night shooting, Vuc was invisible on both ends playing soft, and Ross still can’t get a rhythm on offense.

I thought Evan looked really good actually, drove to the hoop a lot. Fultz and JI played well too obviously.

I do like the small lineup, I give Cliff credit for tryin it.

[MagicStarwipe]

You say that because you have AG hate blinders on. 80% of your posts are negative posts about AG.

Are you seriously defending Gordon in this game thread !?!?!?!?!?


..

No, just pointing out something pretty obvious unless you are not familiar with Rainwater's posts.

[basketballRob]

3 Major reasons why Magic struggle are 3 highest payed players.
But i think Ross is most concerning one because Gordon will still play ok defense and find some rythm , Vuc will always get you some rebounds and assists, just should get his a** back in post again, but Ross being up and down is what he has been whole career long, minus last year.

When he is not making shots he is flat out negative contributor.

His defense has been excellent, his net rating is 76. It's funny how some posters will go far to blame anyone but Fournier and Vuc.

[PrimeThyme]

I cannot make this up, through 3 games our starters have a -51.6 net rating. Our second most-played lineup replaces DJ with Fultz and it has a positive 21 net rating. Starting Fultz is the most obvious move in the league right now.

[MagicStarwipe]

I'd still have Fultz coming off the bench for a little while as he continues to build confidence. I'd still give him the majority of the PG minutes and sub out DJ early. I just worry about what would happen if defenses start sagging way off him to start the game and he misses a few 3's.

[swarlesbarkley]

Last year during our solid stretch to end the season, did Cliff have DJ coming out of the game at the 8 minute mark in the first quarter and putting him back in the start the 2nd quarter? He's done that these past two games. It seems like he wants to get Fultz in there with the starters but that's messing up the rhythm with both the starting unit and the bench unit. Plus, we kept this team basically the same as last year for continuity, why diverge from that in game 2 of the season?

[Knightro]

Because Vuc and Ross played at 120% of their capabilities last year and they're both playing at about 30% this year. We banked on them at 100% for another playoff run.

I keep coming back to this because it's really accurate.

The Magic expected to be able to sustain SOME Vucevic/Ross regression with expected improvements/bounce backs from other players as well as some upgrades (Fultz/Aminu).

But the Magic haven't gotten "normal" regression so far. They've gotten absolutely horrific play from multiple players.

Terrence Ross is shooting .281 from the floor and .190 from three.
Nik Vucevic is shooting .333 from the floor and .167 from three.

If those two shoot like that all year (they won't obviously), the Magic are going to win about 10 games.

What's frustrating to me is going back to Swarles' example. If Ross and Vucevic had each played below average (or even well below average) to their capabilities (which would still be a massive drop from last year) in the first three games instead of absolutely awful, the Magic would be 3-0.

I trust both guys are going to figure it out eventually.

[Knightro]

I cannot make this up, through 3 games our starters have a -51.6 net rating. Our second most-played lineup replaces DJ with Fultz and it has a positive 21 net rating. Starting Fultz is the most obvious move in the league right now.

Still a crazy small sample size so take all of these numbers with a grain of salt, but to compound off of this...

Augustin/Ross are +28.5 NET
Augustin/Aminu are +28.2 NET
Augustin/MCW are +17.9 NET

Augustin/Fournier are -29.0
Augustin/Isaac are -27.1
Augustin/Gordon are -22.4

So Augustin has been really effective when playing with the bench guys, but really horrible playing with the starters. Fultz has been really good playing with the starters...

Does 1 + 1 = 2 in this case or is the sample size still too small to make an official determination is the big question. I *think* Clifford's going to give it a little more time to stabilize, but if after another 6-7 games this is still happening, I think the switch will have to be made.

[Driguez]

I don't like when Clifford plays DJ and Fultz together, but moving Issac to the 5 was a brilliant move. I fully expect Fultz to start much sooner than I thought.

[PrimeThyme]

Because Vuc and Ross played at 120% of their capabilities last year and they're both playing at about 30% this year. We banked on them at 100% for another playoff run.

I keep coming back to this because it's really accurate.

The Magic expected to be able to sustain SOME Vucevic/Ross regression with expected improvements/bounce backs from other players as well as some upgrades (Fultz/Aminu).

But the Magic haven't gotten "normal" regression so far. They've gotten absolutely horrific play from multiple players.

Terrence Ross is shooting .281 from the floor and .190 from three.
Nik Vucevic is shooting .333 from the floor and .167 from three.

If those two shoot like that all year (they won't obviously), the Magic are going to win about 10 games.

What's frustrating to me is going back to Swarles' example. If Ross and Vucevic had each played below average (or even well below average) to their capabilities (which would still be a massive drop from last year) in the first three games instead of absolutely awful, the Magic would be 3-0.

I trust both guys are going to figure it out eventually.

My issue with that though, is they weren't handed the contracts they got as if Weltman expected regression this year. They were paid to be the players they were last year. I think me and you had this discussion over the summer when I expressed my concerns of Vuc getting the contract he did, only because I feared regression. He obviously isnt going to be this bad, but if he isnt as efficient as he was last year (from 3 especially), I'm going to feel differently about his contract.

We thought we knew who both guys were before their career years last year. If they turn back into those players and not the guys they were last year, we are in trouble. I'm not seeing a jump from AG to soften the blow of both guys regressing. JI's offense as long as he plays this role is going to come and go with his 3pt shot, it won't be something we can rely on on a nightly basis.

[MartinsIzAfraud]

Cliff benching Vuc was a shot that's for sure and something that was nice to see. Paid like a top player then give effort like a top player or I'll find a way around it.

IDK what's up with AG, hate to say it but I could see him getting extremely annoyed and ask for a trade end of year. Dude doesn't really fit in here and we don't play at a fast enough pace for him to get out and cut/get easy buckets.

TRoss dude needs to find that form because right now it's still drunk from the summer Vaca

[Rainwater]

People dog on AG all of the time, myself included. Vuc was in this game and we were pure trash.

Out of all the players on this team people are really forgiving of AG after a bad bad game typically blaming it on youth, coaching, spacing, injury or some other excuse. With out Vuc this team might be the worse in the league.

You say that because you have AG hate blinders on. 80% of your posts are negative posts about AG. He gets criticised and defended just as every other player on the team gets criticised and defended. Vuc, Bamba, Fournier, DJ, Isaac... everyone. You just don't like that he gets defended at all because you don't like him.

Nothing against you and hopefully you don't take this personally because you a good poster despite our differences but you are his biggest advocate so this is not surprising.

And I do agree maybe I do have have the blinders on and I do agree that all magic players have been criticized and defended and have their supporters and defenders but I really do believe AG is given more room for mistakes then any other magic player. Let's not talk bout Vuc or Evan because that is obvious but JI and Mo have been here for 3 years and 2 years respectively and people are ready to cut off their heads after each off game yet AG been here for 6 and it's always "give him more time he will come around".

Btw, I don't hate AG he is actually a really good role player but he is just super over valued here. I don't know why it annoys me so much, lol.

[swarlesbarkley]

Yeah there's no way Vuc and Ross can play this bad all year, but there's a good chance they don't make it back to the 100% mark and maybe land on 80%. That's probably no playoffs and wasted investments in them.

The margin for error with these guys and these contracts (moreso Vuc, Ross is a movable contract) was so small to repeat their performance and it seems to be backfiring right now.

The silver lining is Fultz. We've been saying for years that Vuc (and AG) just needs to play with a playmaker on offense to unlock even more potential. Well, Fultz is looking like that guy. Can Fultz get Vuc back to all star levels with ridiculous pick and roll play? I hope so but my head just says Vuc isn't the guy we saw last year.

[GameOver25]

If Vuc can't assert himself, you bench him simple as that. He's back to shooting mid range jumpers and getting pushed out the paint again. I can't handle another season of him playing this way. So far last season was an outlier.