Regular Season Game 3: Orlando Magic (1-1) at Toronto Raptors (2-1) - 7:30pm ET

[magicman112]

Were still in the game for most of it even with AG and Vuc combining for 7 points. If they would have gotten anywhere close to their averages Magic win this game. It's game 3 of 82 so no sense in getting completely bent out of shape over it though. JI had a fantastic game on the positive side of things and Fultz turned in another steady performance.

[pepe1991]

If Vuc can't assert himself, you bench him simple as that. He's back to shooting mid range jumpers and getting pushed out the paint again. I can't handle another season of him playing this way. So far last season was an outlier.

Bench for who?
.

[GameOver25]

Out of all the players on this team people are really forgiving of AG after a bad bad game typically blaming it on youth, coaching, spacing, injury or some other excuse. With out Vuc this team might be the worse in the league.

You say that because you have AG hate blinders on. 80% of your posts are negative posts about AG. He gets criticised and defended just as every other player on the team gets criticised and defended. Vuc, Bamba, Fournier, DJ, Isaac... everyone. You just don't like that he gets defended at all because you don't like him.

Nothing against you and hopefully you don't take this personally because you a good poster despite our differences but you are his biggest advocate so this is not surprising.

And I do agree maybe I do have have the blinders on and I do agree that all magic players have been criticized and defended and have their supporters and defenders but I really do believe AG is given more room for mistakes then any other magic player. Let's not talk bout Vuc or Evan because that is obvious but JI and Mo have been here for 3 years and 2 years respectively and people are ready to cut off their heads after each off game yet AG been here for 6 and it's always "give him more time he will come around".

Btw, I don't hate AG he is actually a really good role player but he is just super over valued here. I don't know why it annoys me so much, lol.

AG needs to accept he's not a #1, #2, or even #3 option and he needs to effect the game in other areas. Once again he's trying new things he worked on in the off season, but it's just not translating over to the real games. He gets by his defender on offense, but has no idea what to do at the basket. At this point I'm ready for him to be a lunch bucket player or trade him for whatever value he has left.

[Furinkazan]

[Knightro]

My issue with that though, is they weren't handed the contracts they got as if Weltman expected regression this year. They were paid to be the players they were last year. I think me and you had this discussion over the summer when I expressed my concerns of Vuc getting the contract he did, only because I feared regression. He obviously isnt going to be this bad, but if he isnt as efficient as he was last year (from 3 especially), I'm going to feel differently about his contract.

We thought we knew who both guys were before their career years last year. If they turn back into those players and not the guys they were last year, we are in trouble. I'm not seeing a jump from AG to soften the blow of both guys regressing. JI's offense as long as he plays this role is going to come and go with his 3pt shot, it won't be something we can rely on on a nightly basis.

I totally get what you're saying and you're definitely not wrong. Vucevic and Ross both got paid (Vuc more than Ross) under the guise that they would be able to provide most if not all of what they gave last season.

But at the same time...

If Vucevic and Ross had simply shot the ball at the levels of the worst year's of their career which for Ross would be 40% FG, 32% 3PT and Vucevic 47% FG, 31% 3PT, the Magic are 3-0 right now and everyone is PUMPED.

[GameOver25]

If Vuc can't assert himself, you bench him simple as that. He's back to shooting mid range jumpers and getting pushed out the paint again. I can't handle another season of him playing this way. So far last season was an outlier.

Bench for who?
.

I guess I should clarify, bench him early and sit him when he's not being assertive.
I wish every game someone would show him that dunk on Pau Gasol. He needs a spark.

[PrimeThyme]

If Vuc can't assert himself, you bench him simple as that. He's back to shooting mid range jumpers and getting pushed out the paint again. I can't handle another season of him playing this way. So far last season was an outlier.

Bench for who?
.

You can't. Bamba is far worse, Isaac can't play starting minutes at the 5, and even a regressed Vuc is better than Birch. If things continue this way I think Cliff would have to be tempted to play Isaac/AG 15-20 minutes at the 5 though and remove Bamba from the rotation. MCW too. MCW is someone you play in a 4th quarter every 15 games or so when you need a stop or a jolt of energy. He should never be part of a consistent NBA rotation in 2019.

[magicman112]

If Vuc can't assert himself, you bench him simple as that. He's back to shooting mid range jumpers and getting pushed out the paint again. I can't handle another season of him playing this way. So far last season was an outlier.

Bench for who?
.

Precisely. I mean I'm a Bamba supporter but even I know he's not ready to be a starter at this point. Birch is experienced enough that he could do it but that's just not what he's suited for he's a guy you bring in to give you some energy and effort off the bench.

[Knightro]

Even in the absolute worst case scenario of Vucevic regressing all the way down to his career worst season, he's still a 15-10-3-1-1 guy on a .470/.300/.740 slash with a positive BPM.

Not worth 100M, but certainly still a viable NBA starter.

He's not getting benched.

[Xatticus]

I cannot make this up, through 3 games our starters have a -51.6 net rating. Our second most-played lineup replaces DJ with Fultz and it has a positive 21 net rating. Starting Fultz is the most obvious move in the league right now.

Still a crazy small sample size so take all of these numbers with a grain of salt, but to compound off of this...

Augustin/Ross are +28.5 NET
Augustin/Aminu are +28.2 NET
Augustin/MCW are +17.9 NET

Augustin/Fournier are -29.0
Augustin/Isaac are -27.1
Augustin/Gordon are -22.4

So Augustin has been really effective when playing with the bench guys, but really horrible playing with the starters. Fultz has been really good playing with the starters...

Does 1 + 1 = 2 in this case or is the sample size still too small to make an official determination is the big question. I *think* Clifford's going to give it a little more time to stabilize, but if after another 6-7 games this is still happening, I think the switch will have to be made.

The offense has been consistently awful, but the team has been holding its own when the starting unit isn't on the floor. It was something that was glossed over last year when discussing our defensive success, but our bench unit was far better than the starting unit defensively after we sorted out the rotation. The bench was only good at the offensive end when Ross was scorching, but it was consistently good at the defensive end and that kept us in games. It doesn't help that we have faced Young and Lowry in the last two games, but the Augustin, Fournier, and Vucevic combination has too many deficiencies at the defensive end.

This won't be a popular suggestion...

If we are intent on playing MCW, I'd prefer that we start him instead of Augustin. I'm not advocating for more minutes for MCW, but I believe his value is maximized by matching him up against the opposition's best offensive weapons. This would let us hide Fournier at the defensive end and it would give us a chance at defending the one-five pick-and-roll. You can still bring Fultz in early and let him finish halves. It would also allow us to stagger the minutes of Augustin and Fournier.

[basketballRob]

Cliff benching Vuc was a shot that's for sure and something that was nice to see. Paid like a top player then give effort like a top player or I'll find a way around it.

IDK what's up with AG, hate to say it but I could see him getting extremely annoyed and ask for a trade end of year. Dude doesn't really fit in here and we don't play at a fast enough pace for him to get out and cut/get easy buckets.

TRoss dude needs to find that form because right now it's still drunk from the summer Vaca

We don't share the ball enough. By the time he touches the ball he tries to force a shot.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app

[MagicStarwipe]

Out of all the players on this team people are really forgiving of AG after a bad bad game typically blaming it on youth, coaching, spacing, injury or some other excuse. With out Vuc this team might be the worse in the league.

You say that because you have AG hate blinders on. 80% of your posts are negative posts about AG. He gets criticised and defended just as every other player on the team gets criticised and defended. Vuc, Bamba, Fournier, DJ, Isaac... everyone. You just don't like that he gets defended at all because you don't like him.

Nothing against you and hopefully you don't take this personally because you a good poster despite our differences but you are his biggest advocate so this is not surprising.

And I do agree maybe I do have have the blinders on and I do agree that all magic players have been criticized and defended and have their supporters and defenders but I really do believe AG is given more room for mistakes then any other magic player. Let's not talk bout Vuc or Evan because that is obvious but JI and Mo have been here for 3 years and 2 years respectively and people are ready to cut off their heads after each off game yet AG been here for 6 and it's always "give him more time he will come around".

Btw, I don't hate AG he is actually a really good role player but he is just super over valued here. I don't know why it annoys me so much, lol.

I don't take it personally. I have a soft spot for AG because I had high hopes for the Oladipo, Payton, Gordon trio. Obviously that didn't work out, but as you say AG is still a good role player and I think that best case scenario in the right situation he could scrape into an all-star game at some point in his career. Maybe this is not the right situation. I don't think it's worth getting bent out of shape about AG because at his normal level of play he is worth his contract. He's had a bad start to the season but I expect him to return to normal AG sooner than later.

[ShotCreator]

Too early to say Vuc has regressed.

[basketballRob]

Too early to say Vuc has regressed.

He's been in a funk since last years playoffs. He stunk in FIBA, preseason, and now the first three games.

[tommyg]

It was good to see them fight back and at least stay in the game. I really think Khem Birch deserves that backup center spot. Bamba looks pretty lost out there.

[orlando_joe]

I would like to see wes play min mcw is getting he looked good in preseason..

[Blue_and_Whte]

Bamba looks like a gimmick right now(7’10 wingspan!, faster sprint than Westbrook! A terrible song about him!) and Birch will TAKE his minutes when Cliff is ready to get serious.

[Def Swami]

Similar issues as the first 2 games. Failed to crack 100 and the team just struggles to hit open shots. At some point, the Magic will shoot better than this (hopefully), and we'll swing some of these games in our favor. Defensively, the Magic look the part. They're doing their job on that end. But, they have to crack 100 to give themselves a shot to win most games.

I was actually pretty encouraged overall by what I saw last night. Jonathan Isaac was far and away our best player and it was the best game I've ever seen him play. He battled Siakam really well all night and hit open shots. We could really use these kind of nights consistently from him.

I mentioned in the last game thread that I trust Clifford to make adjustments as the season progresses and he didn't disappoint me last night. I loved the way he sat Vucevic and Bamba and went with Isaac/Gordon switching between PF and C. I've always wished we had done this more in the past. There's not enough data to back this up, but Isaac is probably a better center than Mo Bamba on most nights, and I'm not sure there's going to be much utility for Bamba unless he can ever match the defensive intensity that Isaac displays nightly. Both Vucevic and Bamba were bad last night and we need to find ways to get more playmakers and shooting on the floor. I thought it was a nice in game adjustment by Clifford that seemed to work, but we just came up short in the 4th quarter. You have to hand it to the Raptors. They're a really good team.

Vucevic was just terrible. Gordon was terrible again. Gordon being this bad has been a little frightening considering how good he looked in 2 preseason games and has been absolutely horrible since then. I hope both these guys turn it around soon. At least for Gordon, his defensive intensity isn't wavering.

Another pretty encouraging game by Fultz's standards.

Otherwise, the Magic were competitive on the road against the defending champs. We've dropped 2 winnable games. Hopefully law of averages plays out and we make up some ground as the season progresses.

[PrimeThyme]

I was actually pretty encouraged overall by what I saw last night. Jonathan Isaac was far and away our best player and it was the best game I've ever seen him play. He battled Siakam really well all night and hit open shots. We could really use these kind of nights consistently from him.

I mentioned in the last game thread that I trust Clifford to make adjustments as the season progresses and he didn't disappoint me last night. I loved the way he sat Vucevic and Bamba and went with Isaac/Gordon switching between PF and C. I've always wished we had done this more in the past. There's not enough data to back this up, but Isaac is probably a better center than Mo Bamba on most nights, and I'm not sure there's going to be much utility for Bamba unless he can ever match the defensive intensity that Isaac displays nightly. Both Vucevic and Bamba were bad last night and we need to find ways to get more playmakers and shooting on the floor. I thought it was a nice in game adjustment by Clifford that seemed to work, but we just came up short in the 4th quarter. You have to hand it to the Raptors. They're a really good team.

Yeah, I personally don't even think its a contest. There isnt one thing that Mo Bamba does better than Isaac. He gets more blocks sheerly do to his length, but in no world is he even close to being the rim protector that Isaac is. I suppose he gets more rebounds, but when you watch him on the court it sure feels like he struggles with positioning and gives up a lot of offensive boards. Isaac has also put on size and is officially a 7 footer with shoes while being a better defender, shooter, passer, and pretty much better at anything else you could think of.

I feel like if you were a GM in this league and needed a center and were choosing between him and Bamba you would take Isaac 10/10. Isaac is the mold the 5 spot is moving towards in today's NBA. Ibaka has done it successfully for 2 years now. Won't be surprised to see Zion develop full time as one in the future either.

[Cockers]

Just watched the game... i'm not dissapointed anymore... still 79 games to go