Playoffs G4: Toronto Raptors (2) @ Orlando Magic (7)

[npiper17]

Jazz aren’t in the playoffs without Mitchell.
Embiid and Simmons draw talent to go to a previously terrible situation in Philly.
DLO and Dinwiddie have a promising back court and it took them only 2 years.
KP doesn’t go to Dallas without Luka.
Tatum is essential for Boston right now.
Siakam was drafted in 2017 and is one of their best players now.

So no. It doesn’t take 5 years. These are just examples off the top of my head without any digging.

Embiid was drafted 5 years ago!
Jazz were a decent team before Mitchell (who by the way was picked outside the top 10 and haven’t tanked).
And besides that Utah, Philly and Brooklyn have no chance to win a title.
Dallas isn’t even in the playoffs in the West.
You could make an argument that Boston and Toronto are contenders but I would disagree with you.

If you think a team leaps into championship contention in 1-2 years by drafting one young player then you still think it’s the 1990s.

My original statement was that you NEED talent to put yourself in situations that make you competitive and relevant. Those players, in less than 5 years, were all drafted near the top of the lottery have made those franchises playoff quality / have brighter futures. You are now moving the goalposts. All of the players mentioned made those teams relevant in less time. It’s not even “championship” caliber we are talking about, because again the best players in the nba are likely going to be in the finals/ deep playoffs - Giannis, Durant, Harden, Curry, etc.

If you don’t believe those teams are where they are now because of the players I listed off the top of my head, and better for them, you are lying to yourself.

Your original statement was that ‘the NBA fluctuates very often’ due to young players coming into the league which simply isn’t true.

You also said building and developing which I took to mean building and developing towards a championship-calibre team because otherwise what are you building and developing towards?

I’m not moving goalposts. I’m responding to your direct quotes.

[MagicMatic]

Embiid was drafted 5 years ago!
Jazz were a decent team before Mitchell (who by the way was picked outside the top 10 and haven’t tanked).
And besides that Utah, Philly and Brooklyn have no chance to win a title.
Dallas isn’t even in the playoffs in the West.
You could make an argument that Boston and Toronto are contenders but I would disagree with you.

If you think a team leaps into championship contention in 1-2 years by drafting one young player then you still think it’s the 1990s.

My original statement was that you NEED talent to put yourself in situations that make you competitive and relevant. Those players, in less than 5 years, were all drafted near the top of the lottery have made those franchises playoff quality / have brighter futures. You are now moving the goalposts. All of the players mentioned made those teams relevant in less time. It’s not even “championship” caliber we are talking about, because again the best players in the nba are likely going to be in the finals/ deep playoffs - Giannis, Durant, Harden, Curry, etc.

If you don’t believe those teams are where they are now because of the players I listed off the top of my head, and better for them, you are lying to yourself.

Your original statement was that ‘the NBA fluctuates very often’ due to young players coming into the league which simply isn’t true.

You also said building and developing which I took to mean building and developing towards a championship-calibre team because otherwise what are you building and developing towards?

I’m not moving goalposts. I’m responding to your direct quotes.

Does KP go to Dallas without Doncic?
Does Butler accept going to Philly without their youth?
Does Brooklyn get into the playoffs without DLO?
Does Utah make playoffs in the west without Mitchell?
Where does Boston end up this year w/o Tatum?
What about Derrick White in San Antonio w/o Murray?
How important has Siakam been for Tor?

I’d say those are all pretty substantial questions that impact the league and most of them have playoff implications to an extent. If you choose to disagree then fine. All of those teams became exponentially better due to their young players in less than 5 years. Sorry, I know that doesn’t fit with the usual Magic fan agenda of everything taking a decade to build and lottery picks not mattering for at least 5 years. Choose what you want to believe.

[RookieStar]

Due to work and stuff, I wasn't able to watch the game and was only ablr yo sneak peek the score. Did we fight to the end? If so, that's all I ask for.

Did we really think we can get pass this series? We are a team that is just happy to be in the playoffs.

One step at a time. Next season is when we expect to get out of the 1st round.

[npiper17]

My original statement was that you NEED talent to put yourself in situations that make you competitive and relevant. Those players, in less than 5 years, were all drafted near the top of the lottery have made those franchises playoff quality / have brighter futures. You are now moving the goalposts. All of the players mentioned made those teams relevant in less time. It’s not even “championship” caliber we are talking about, because again the best players in the nba are likely going to be in the finals/ deep playoffs - Giannis, Durant, Harden, Curry, etc.

If you don’t believe those teams are where they are now because of the players I listed off the top of my head, and better for them, you are lying to yourself.

Your original statement was that ‘the NBA fluctuates very often’ due to young players coming into the league which simply isn’t true.

You also said building and developing which I took to mean building and developing towards a championship-calibre team because otherwise what are you building and developing towards?

I’m not moving goalposts. I’m responding to your direct quotes.

Does KP go to Dallas without Doncic?
Does Butler accept going to Philly without their youth?
Does Brooklyn get into the playoffs without DLO?
Does Utah make playoffs in the west without Mitchell?
Where does Boston end up this year w/o Tatum?
What about Derrick White in San Antonio w/o Murray?
How important has Siakam been for Tor?

I’d say those are all pretty substantial questions that impact the league and most of them have playoff implications to an extent. If you choose to disagree then fine. All of those teams became exponentially better due to their young players in less than 5 years. Sorry, I know that doesn’t fit with the usual Magic fan agenda of everything taking a decade to build and lottery picks not mattering for at least 5 years. Choose what you want to believe.

I think you shouldn’t have gone with saying the NBA fluctuates very often due to young players - I think you agree with me on that which is why you haven’t referenced that you made that statement in any of your responses.

It’s not about what I choose to believe, it’s about what is true. None of the examples you have given have impacted the NBA at championship level. Could they in time? Yes. But then that would only further prove my point that it takes longer than 1-2 years for a young player to have a championship-level impact. And that’s not me ‘changing the goalposts’ it’s me responding to your line on ‘fluctuations in the NBA.’

Re your Magic comment - hasn’t Isaac started to have an impact in less than your 5 year timeline?

[OrlandO]

There are only two avenues to add talent outside of trades. The draft and free agency. So how are we adding talent if we are finishing, let’s say, similarly to how we will this season? I don’t need to know what the roster will look like to tell you there is a strong chance we never add an allstar level talent picking in the middle of the draft and overpaying role players every season to “tweak” the roster.

It’s not a tanking strategy, it’s shuffling the deck through trades and seeing what works with different lineups. If that happens to net Orlando higher picks for lack of talent then so be it. You make it seem like “building and developing” is a process that should take 5 years. It isn’t. The nba is a talent driven league and fluctuates very often because of young players.

Please explain how the NBA fluctuates very often because of young players. The NBA has similar contenders (max 4 to 5 teams most years but even less in this latest iteration) that do change but that process takes 4 to 5 years - this is the building and developing period for other teams.

Jazz aren’t in the playoffs without Mitchell.
Embiid and Simmons draw talent to go to a previously terrible situation in Philly.
DLO and Dinwiddie have a promising back court and it took them only 2 years.
KP doesn’t go to Dallas without Luka.
Tatum is essential for Boston right now.
Siakam was drafted in 2017 and is one of their best players now.

So no. It doesn’t take 5 years. These are just examples off the top of my head without any digging.

Embiid, Simmons, KP, Tatum weren't projects. Russell and Dinwiddie got traded and needed 4-5 years to get going. Knicks traded KP for a PG that might need 4+ years to develop. Guards usually develop faster too. FYI the Nets and Jazz are getting destroyed in the first round just like us. Knicks did nothing with KP.

Going back to your previous question of how we add to our team if we bring back vuc/ross... look no further than your own list. Dinwiddie was a 2nd rounder that was waived. We might have already traded for our DLO this season. We could be in position to trade for the next KP or another disgruntled star when the opportunity presents itself... we have to be a decent team to go for it. 25 year old Siakam was a late first rounder developed on a good team. The never-tanking Jazz used their 24th pick and trey lyles in a pick swap to get mitchell on draft night.

[MagicMatic]

Your original statement was that ‘the NBA fluctuates very often’ due to young players coming into the league which simply isn’t true.

You also said building and developing which I took to mean building and developing towards a championship-calibre team because otherwise what are you building and developing towards?

I’m not moving goalposts. I’m responding to your direct quotes.

Does KP go to Dallas without Doncic?
Does Butler accept going to Philly without their youth?
Does Brooklyn get into the playoffs without DLO?
Does Utah make playoffs in the west without Mitchell?
Where does Boston end up this year w/o Tatum?
What about Derrick White in San Antonio w/o Murray?
How important has Siakam been for Tor?

I’d say those are all pretty substantial questions that impact the league and most of them have playoff implications to an extent. If you choose to disagree then fine. All of those teams became exponentially better due to their young players in less than 5 years. Sorry, I know that doesn’t fit with the usual Magic fan agenda of everything taking a decade to build and lottery picks not mattering for at least 5 years. Choose what you want to believe.

I think you shouldn’t have gone with saying the NBA fluctuates very often due to young players - I think you agree with me on that which is why you haven’t referenced that you made that statement in any of your responses.

It’s not about what I choose to believe, it’s about what is true. None of the examples you have given have impacted the NBA at championship level. Could they in time? Yes. But then that would only further prove my point that it takes longer than 1-2 years for a young player to have a championship-level impact. And that’s not me ‘changing the goalposts’ it’s me responding to your line on ‘fluctuations in the NBA.’

Re your Magic comment - hasn’t Isaac started to have an impact in less than your 5 year timeline?

Quote me where I said “young players fluctuate the league on a championship level” nowhere in my post did I claim that. Your words not mine. Isaac did have an impact. Do you think that because I excluded him means I don’t think that? Thanks for proving my point that he did impact Orlando’s roster in less than 5 years with this being his first full season.

The original point without using the wordage that obviously triggered you, is that teams need to acquire talent, draft or otherwise, rather than making minor tweaks to what hasn’t been working. The teams I listed figured this all out in less time because of said players. The reason for even responding to the original post was merely saying that more needs to be done than “minor tweaks” and it doesn’t take 10 years to figure this out.

[npiper17]

Does KP go to Dallas without Doncic?
Does Butler accept going to Philly without their youth?
Does Brooklyn get into the playoffs without DLO?
Does Utah make playoffs in the west without Mitchell?
Where does Boston end up this year w/o Tatum?
What about Derrick White in San Antonio w/o Murray?
How important has Siakam been for Tor?

I’d say those are all pretty substantial questions that impact the league and most of them have playoff implications to an extent. If you choose to disagree then fine. All of those teams became exponentially better due to their young players in less than 5 years. Sorry, I know that doesn’t fit with the usual Magic fan agenda of everything taking a decade to build and lottery picks not mattering for at least 5 years. Choose what you want to believe.

I think you shouldn’t have gone with saying the NBA fluctuates very often due to young players - I think you agree with me on that which is why you haven’t referenced that you made that statement in any of your responses.

It’s not about what I choose to believe, it’s about what is true. None of the examples you have given have impacted the NBA at championship level. Could they in time? Yes. But then that would only further prove my point that it takes longer than 1-2 years for a young player to have a championship-level impact. And that’s not me ‘changing the goalposts’ it’s me responding to your line on ‘fluctuations in the NBA.’

Re your Magic comment - hasn’t Isaac started to have an impact in less than your 5 year timeline?

Quote me where I said “young players fluctuate the league on a championship level” nowhere in my post did I claim that. Your words not mine. Isaac did have an impact. Do you think that because I excluded him means I don’t think that? Thanks for proving my point that he did impact Orlando’s roster in less than 5 years with this being his first full season.

The original point without using the wordage that obviously triggered you, is that teams need to acquire talent, draft or otherwise, rather than making minor tweaks to what hasn’t been working. The teams I listed figured this all out in less time because of said players.

Here is what you wrote in your original post:

You make it seem like “building and developing” is a process that should take 5 years. It isn’t. The nba is a talent driven league and fluctuates very often because of young players.

I’ve already explained that by saying the league fluctuates very often because of young players, this implies that the outcome of the league is impacted because of said young players. That’s what I took issue with and addressed.

Now you say that’s not what you meant then fine but it makes me wonder what your actual point is? If it’s that teams can change their mid to longer terms outlooks by drafting / acquiring young players then of course that’s true and I agree. Isaac is an example of this for the Magic and there are countless others around the league.

Is it that you’re concerned the Magic will only make what you consider to be minor tweaks to something that if fundamentally flawed when you’re looking at building a championship-level team?

[MagicMatic]

I think you shouldn’t have gone with saying the NBA fluctuates very often due to young players - I think you agree with me on that which is why you haven’t referenced that you made that statement in any of your responses.

It’s not about what I choose to believe, it’s about what is true. None of the examples you have given have impacted the NBA at championship level. Could they in time? Yes. But then that would only further prove my point that it takes longer than 1-2 years for a young player to have a championship-level impact. And that’s not me ‘changing the goalposts’ it’s me responding to your line on ‘fluctuations in the NBA.’

Re your Magic comment - hasn’t Isaac started to have an impact in less than your 5 year timeline?

Quote me where I said “young players fluctuate the league on a championship level” nowhere in my post did I claim that. Your words not mine. Isaac did have an impact. Do you think that because I excluded him means I don’t think that? Thanks for proving my point that he did impact Orlando’s roster in less than 5 years with this being his first full season.

The original point without using the wordage that obviously triggered you, is that teams need to acquire talent, draft or otherwise, rather than making minor tweaks to what hasn’t been working. The teams I listed figured this all out in less time because of said players.

Here is what you wrote in your original post:

You make it seem like “building and developing” is a process that should take 5 years. It isn’t. The nba is a talent driven league and fluctuates very often because of young players.

I’ve already explained that by saying the league fluctuates very often because of young players, this implies that the outcome of the league is impacted because of said young players. That’s what I took issue with and addressed.

Now you say that’s not what you meant then fine but it makes me wonder what your actual point is? If it’s that teams can change their mid to longer terms outlooks by drafting / acquiring young players then of course that’s true and I agree. Isaac is an example of this for the Magic and there are countless others around the league.

Is it that you’re concerned the Magic will only make what you consider to be minor tweaks to something that if fundamentally flawed when you’re looking at building a championship-level team?

In so many words, Orlando needs to try a different avenue, rather than committing to Vuc and settling on minor tweaks. Committing to the youth isn’t a bad idea.

[pepe1991]

Fultz, Jah Okafor ,Noel, MCW, Šarić.

6 years in lottery to flip them into:
J. Simmons, nothing, nothing , nothing and Jimmy Butler.

That was really nice spent time ,wasn't it? 6 years to get expiring Butler.

Let's see how rebuild through draft goes for Kings, since 2005:
nothing,nothing,nothing,nothing,nothing,nothing,nothing,nothing,Cousins,nothing,nothing,traded Cousins for Buddy Hield, Fox, still no playoffs.

Another shiny example of sucessful rebuild.

And grand winner of them all , Suns.
In 6 years 14 first round picks, including 4 top 5 picks in last 6 years.
ANd where they are after 7 years? Oh, yea, just where they were 7 years ago, on bottom, with second worst record in nba.

Maybe it's not about draft, maybe it's about who drafts them and what you do with them later?

[SOUL]

I think this just proves there is no surefire way to rebuild with assurance that it's a good direction to take. We've tried the tanking route and misfired (even if some of the bullets were self inflicted) and people are tired of that, and on the other hand, keeping the team the same also doesn't seem to be the best route to commit to either and people are tired of that as well. It's not an easy decision for the FO.

[npiper17]

Quote me where I said “young players fluctuate the league on a championship level” nowhere in my post did I claim that. Your words not mine. Isaac did have an impact. Do you think that because I excluded him means I don’t think that? Thanks for proving my point that he did impact Orlando’s roster in less than 5 years with this being his first full season.

The original point without using the wordage that obviously triggered you, is that teams need to acquire talent, draft or otherwise, rather than making minor tweaks to what hasn’t been working. The teams I listed figured this all out in less time because of said players.

Here is what you wrote in your original post:

You make it seem like “building and developing” is a process that should take 5 years. It isn’t. The nba is a talent driven league and fluctuates very often because of young players.

I’ve already explained that by saying the league fluctuates very often because of young players, this implies that the outcome of the league is impacted because of said young players. That’s what I took issue with and addressed.

Now you say that’s not what you meant then fine but it makes me wonder what your actual point is? If it’s that teams can change their mid to longer terms outlooks by drafting / acquiring young players then of course that’s true and I agree. Isaac is an example of this for the Magic and there are countless others around the league.

Is it that you’re concerned the Magic will only make what you consider to be minor tweaks to something that if fundamentally flawed when you’re looking at building a championship-level team?

In so many words, Orlando needs to try a different avenue, rather than committing to Vuc and settling on minor tweaks. Committing to the youth isn’t a bad idea.

And I’m all for this approach. I see no avenue where Weltman offers Vuc anything more than 2 years (if he even makes an offer at all). It could well be a scenario where Vuc gets a 3 or 4 year offer elsewhere and he’s sent on his way with good wishes before money / contract length are even discussed with the Magic.

[Bensational]

I, for one, enjoy watching competitive basketball more than tanking ball. I also have faith in Weltman, Hammond and Lloyd to find us quality youth in the draft with mid-first round picks. Butler, Giannis, Brogdon, Siakam - they've done it before so I trust they can continue adding to our team whilst we continue to pursue higher stakes competition.

These playoffs have been tough, but my god, they've still been the most enjoyable basketball in years.

[darthmerrick]

Lets go Magic. Find a way to bring it back to Orlando for Game 6.

[Dmagic]

One thing that turned this series was the play of kawhi Leonard. He is back, that's for sure.
Always was a fan. Also the magic need upgraded at the sg position and center. There are cheaper centers that a far better defensively. Point will improve dramatically with the inclusion of markelle fultz. He is a far better defenender than dj and Fournier put together.
This team will be even better defensively next year no doubt. Bring in a few decent players that have proved themselves by playing good in the post season. Orlando should be ok draw for FA's in parts thanks to AG and coaching for most part. AG is going to beast next year! Can't wait excited to see what our gm does this off-season.

[tiderulz]

:o One thing that turned this series was the play of kawhi Leonard. He is back, that's for sure.
Always was a fan. Also the magic need upgraded at the sg position and center. There are cheaper centers that a far better defensively. Point will improve dramatically with the inclusion of markelle fultz. He is a far better defenender than dj and Fournier put together.
This team will be even better defensively next year no doubt. Bring in a few decent players that have proved themselves by playing good in the post season. Orlando should be ok draw for FA's in parts thanks to AG and coaching for most part. AG is going to beast next year! Can't wait excited to see what our gm does this off-season.

if we need upgrade at SG and center, then we need upgrades all over the team. A better defender isnt whats killing us in this series, its complete lack of offense. as for Fultz being a better defender than DJ, while thats not hard, Fultz was one of the worse defenders in college ball if i remember correctly.

[Par36]

Wrong thread***