People were interested in these podcasts
ImageImageImageImage

Should the Magic fire JV now or wait abit?

Moderators: Def Swami, Howard Mass, ChosenSavior, UCF, Knightro, UCFJayBird

Should the Magic fire JV now?

Yes, nothing has changed fire his arse.
78
56%
Not 100% sure yet but it will happen this season.
35
25%
No, he's doing/done a great job.
26
19%
 
Total votes: 139

Bensational
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 31,245
And1: 13,713
Joined: Apr 10, 2001
     

Re: Should the Magic fire JV now or wait abit? 

Post#81 » by Bensational » Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:07 pm

way too early for this talk.

but JV better start bringing a legit offense to games in future, and making sure his players execute it.
NickAnderson
General Manager
Posts: 7,889
And1: 2,922
Joined: Jul 11, 2009
Location: Club Space
     

Re: Should the Magic fire JV now or wait abit? 

Post#82 » by NickAnderson » Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:09 pm

OrlandO wrote:Bucks blew a 24 point lead in the second half and lost to the Hornets. Biggest comeback in Charlotte franchise history. Yet... not a single fire Jason Kidd thread on the Bucks forum.


I still can't figure out why some of our fans act they way they do lmao

Sent from my VS985 4G using RealGM Forums mobile app
User avatar
mhectorgato
RealGM
Posts: 29,446
And1: 574
Joined: Jan 11, 2005
Location: Finals Baby!
 

Re: Should the Magic fire JV now or wait abit? 

Post#83 » by mhectorgato » Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:11 pm

OrlandO wrote:Bucks blew a 24 point lead in the second half and lost to the Hornets. Biggest comeback in Charlotte franchise history. Yet... not a single fire Jason Kidd thread on the Bucks forum.


Do they have 2 years of history with Kidd to see to a pattern continuing into the new season?
NEM wrote: However, I'm a fan of my team winning so, keep the winning coming. All the "tank" fans can take their crap to another board. We are here to win.
User avatar
mhectorgato
RealGM
Posts: 29,446
And1: 574
Joined: Jan 11, 2005
Location: Finals Baby!
 

Re: Should the Magic fire JV now or wait abit? 

Post#84 » by mhectorgato » Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:11 pm

Bensational wrote:way too early for this talk.

but JV better start bringing a legit offense to games in future, and making sure his players execute it.


Agree
NEM wrote: However, I'm a fan of my team winning so, keep the winning coming. All the "tank" fans can take their crap to another board. We are here to win.
Driguez
General Manager
Posts: 9,762
And1: 2,089
Joined: Jul 01, 2005
Location: Impartial
   

Re: Should the Magic fire JV now or wait abit? 

Post#85 » by Driguez » Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:24 pm

We should fire him and wait for Abit.

Sent from my HTC6525LVW using RealGM Forums mobile app
Huevos Bancheros
User avatar
tiderulz
RealGM
Posts: 36,868
And1: 14,810
Joined: Jun 16, 2010
Location: Atlanta
 

Re: Should the Magic fire JV now or wait abit? 

Post#86 » by tiderulz » Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:29 pm

mhectorgato wrote:
OrlandO wrote:Bucks blew a 24 point lead in the second half and lost to the Hornets. Biggest comeback in Charlotte franchise history. Yet... not a single fire Jason Kidd thread on the Bucks forum.


Do they have 2 years of history with Kidd to see to a pattern continuing into the new season?


but 2 years of driving the FO endorsed tank. Big difference.
User avatar
mhectorgato
RealGM
Posts: 29,446
And1: 574
Joined: Jan 11, 2005
Location: Finals Baby!
 

Re: Should the Magic fire JV now or wait abit? 

Post#87 » by mhectorgato » Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:33 pm

tiderulz wrote:
mhectorgato wrote:
OrlandO wrote:Bucks blew a 24 point lead in the second half and lost to the Hornets. Biggest comeback in Charlotte franchise history. Yet... not a single fire Jason Kidd thread on the Bucks forum.


Do they have 2 years of history with Kidd to see to a pattern continuing into the new season?


but 2 years of driving the FO endorsed tank. Big difference.


If we continue to see similar decisions by JV this year (as some have already seen in the 1st game), are we still tanking?

If we are not tanking now and JV makes the same types of decisions, were we really tanking last few years?

At some point the pattern of questionable in game time decisions and strategies has to be narrowed down to the coach and not the actual/perceived situation the franchise is in.
NEM wrote: However, I'm a fan of my team winning so, keep the winning coming. All the "tank" fans can take their crap to another board. We are here to win.
User avatar
tiderulz
RealGM
Posts: 36,868
And1: 14,810
Joined: Jun 16, 2010
Location: Atlanta
 

Re: Should the Magic fire JV now or wait abit? 

Post#88 » by tiderulz » Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:36 pm

mhectorgato wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
mhectorgato wrote:Do they have 2 years of history with Kidd to see to a pattern continuing into the new season?


but 2 years of driving the FO endorsed tank. Big difference.


If we continue to see similar decisions by JV this year (as some have already seen in the 1st game), are we still tanking?

If we are not tanking now and JV makes the same types of decisions, were we really tanking last few years?

At some point the pattern of questionable in game time decisions and strategies has to be narrowed down to the coach and not the actual/perceived situation the franchise is in.


i agree that he needs to be held accountable. But i personally dont hold the previous 2 years against up as a track record when the purpose was to lose.
User avatar
mhectorgato
RealGM
Posts: 29,446
And1: 574
Joined: Jan 11, 2005
Location: Finals Baby!
 

Re: Should the Magic fire JV now or wait abit? 

Post#89 » by mhectorgato » Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:43 pm

tiderulz wrote:
mhectorgato wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
but 2 years of driving the FO endorsed tank. Big difference.


If we continue to see similar decisions by JV this year (as some have already seen in the 1st game), are we still tanking?

If we are not tanking now and JV makes the same types of decisions, were we really tanking last few years?

At some point the pattern of questionable in game time decisions and strategies has to be narrowed down to the coach and not the actual/perceived situation the franchise is in.


i agree that he needs to be held accountable. But i personally dont hold the previous 2 years against up as a track record when the purpose was to lose.


Neither do I (though I still disagree with the "purpose to lose" part).

Even when the team is not designed to win but rebuild with youth, there still should be growth on a team level for team offense and defense. Last game -- granted it was the 1st game and we are short 2 starters - we saw similar mistakes to previous seasons. We saw #matchup based decisions.

I'm not calling for his head yet - like I mentioned elsewhere; I think he's safe until AS weekend. If we've not improved much by then, he needs to be on the hot seat then.

**

And by the way - it's not accountability that I was trying to focus on - it's that if he's the same coach this year and previous years, then his coaching then wasn't **tank** coaching.
NEM wrote: However, I'm a fan of my team winning so, keep the winning coming. All the "tank" fans can take their crap to another board. We are here to win.
User avatar
OrlandO
RealGM
Posts: 21,634
And1: 16,421
Joined: May 27, 2009

Re: Should the Magic fire JV now or wait abit? 

Post#90 » by OrlandO » Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:22 pm

mhectorgato wrote:
OrlandO wrote:Bucks blew a 24 point lead in the second half and lost to the Hornets. Biggest comeback in Charlotte franchise history. Yet... not a single fire Jason Kidd thread on the Bucks forum.


Do they have 2 years of history with Kidd to see to a pattern continuing into the new season?

Just realized you're the guy who who kept asking people to "prove we're tanking" last season. You obviously have a completely different viewpoint of the coach/team when it comes to comparing this year and the previous years, so I don't really want to get into it with you as it would be pretty pointless.
User avatar
mhectorgato
RealGM
Posts: 29,446
And1: 574
Joined: Jan 11, 2005
Location: Finals Baby!
 

Re: Should the Magic fire JV now or wait abit? 

Post#91 » by mhectorgato » Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:28 pm

OrlandO wrote:
mhectorgato wrote:
OrlandO wrote:Bucks blew a 24 point lead in the second half and lost to the Hornets. Biggest comeback in Charlotte franchise history. Yet... not a single fire Jason Kidd thread on the Bucks forum.


Do they have 2 years of history with Kidd to see to a pattern continuing into the new season?


Just realized you're the guy who who kept asking people to "prove we're tanking" last season. You obviously have a completely different viewpoint of the coach/team when it comes to comparing this year and the previous years, so I don't really want to get into it with you as it would be pretty pointless.


So instead of debating my points, you just want to call it pointless.

Tell my why similar questionable decisions and team tendencies made over the last few seasons which occur again *this* season should be considered as different.

I'm trying not to be like "I just don't like him and no matter what you say won't convince me". I would like to think that I'm trying to have a logical (albeit biased and emotion as I can't completely divorce myself from being a fan) discussion about the topic.

My having a different viewpoint should be a starting point for discussion and not close the door. I'm not trying to debate if we or didn't tank. Nor am I saying we should have been .500 team last year.

So far the only counterpoints are:
factual:
- it's only 1 game; and I accept and agree with that
- we're missing 2 starters; and I accept and agree with that

opinion:
- we were tanking last year, so JV is off the hook; obviously I don't agree; plus I'm not comparing records
NEM wrote: However, I'm a fan of my team winning so, keep the winning coming. All the "tank" fans can take their crap to another board. We are here to win.
User avatar
OrlandO
RealGM
Posts: 21,634
And1: 16,421
Joined: May 27, 2009

Re: Should the Magic fire JV now or wait abit? 

Post#92 » by OrlandO » Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:50 pm

mhectorgato wrote:
OrlandO wrote:
mhectorgato wrote:
Do they have 2 years of history with Kidd to see to a pattern continuing into the new season?


Just realized you're the guy who who kept asking people to "prove we're tanking" last season. You obviously have a completely different viewpoint of the coach/team when it comes to comparing this year and the previous years, so I don't really want to get into it with you as it would be pretty pointless.


So instead of debating my points, you just want to call it pointless.

Tell my why similar questionable decisions and team tendencies made over the last few seasons which occur again *this* season should be considered as different.

I'm trying not to be like "I just don't like him and no matter what you say won't convince me". I would like to think that I'm trying to have a logical (albeit biased and emotion as I can't completely divorce myself from being a fan) discussion about the topic.

My having a different viewpoint should be a starting point for discussion and not close the door. I'm not trying to debate if we or didn't tank. Nor am I saying we should have been .500 team last year.

So far the only counterpoints are:
factual:
- it's only 1 game; and I accept and agree with that
- we're missing 2 starters; and I accept and agree with that

opinion:
- we were tanking last year, so JV is off the hook; obviously I don't agree; plus I'm not comparing records



Yes, at this point, I think it's kind of pointless for us to get into a huge debate about whether or not he should be fired right now because there is too much of a gap between our viewpoints. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you see a coach who has had 165 games to show his ability to coach unrestricted and win games. I see a coach who has had 1 game to show his ability to coach unrestricted and win games. That's a pretty significant difference when evaluating a coach. I'm not saying ignore everything he did in the past two years, but I think he should have a chance to prove his methods actually do work when the leash is off. You are obviously going to be less patient with him and more likely to hold the last two years against him since you don't think we were tanking. Now 30 games in (maybe more, maybe less, just throwing out a number to make a point), the aforementioned gap gets smaller as the tanking viewpoint becomes much less relevant. Vaughn may turn out to really suck this year, but at this point, after 1 game, I think it is more of a prediction than a real evaluation.

Anyway, if this was last year, I don't think vaughn starts both rookie payton and unproven 22 yr old fournier over vets ridnour and the 4.5 million dollar man b. gordon in the first game of the season, especially with oladipo out. I'm also not expecting vaughn to bench our best players late in close games just so some vets can play 2 or 3 vs 5... but we'll see I guess.
User avatar
mhectorgato
RealGM
Posts: 29,446
And1: 574
Joined: Jan 11, 2005
Location: Finals Baby!
 

Re: Should the Magic fire JV now or wait abit? 

Post#93 » by mhectorgato » Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:25 pm

OrlandO wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but you see a coach who has had 165 games to show his ability to coach unrestricted and win games. I see a coach who has had 1 game to show his ability to coach unrestricted and win games. That's a pretty significant difference when evaluating a coach.


There's commonality in our viewpoints here. I also say he was restricted - though we have differing reasons of why. My feelings is that he was restricted by the personnel he had at his disposal. (Clarification: The personnel was based on a gradual rebuild, rather than a purposeful losing to get top picks)

OrlandO wrote:I'm not saying ignore everything he did in the past two years, but I think he should have a chance to prove his methods actually do work when the leash is off. You are obviously going to be less patient with him and more likely to hold the last two years against him since you don't think we were tanking.


If we can put aside the reason of why he was restricted for a second - if he makes similar "adjustments" (aka matchups, see game 1), and the team has similar flaws (lack of ball movement, poor team defense, strange substitutions, again see game 1) as there were in the previous 2 years, would that make you change your opinion of the previous years?

OrlandO wrote: Now 30 games in (maybe more, maybe less, just throwing out a number to make a point), the aforementioned gap gets smaller as the tanking viewpoint becomes much less relevant. Vaughn may turn out to really suck this year, but at this point, after 1 game, I think it is more of a prediction than a real evaluation.


I definitely agree - there's no reason to drop the guillotine on him so early in the season, and especially not based on 1 game.

OrlandO wrote: Anyway, if this was last year, I don't think vaughn starts both rookie payton and unproven 22 yr old fournier over vets ridnour and the 4.5 million dollar man b. gordon in the first game of the season, especially with oladipo out. I'm also not expecting vaughn to bench our best players late in close games just so some vets can play 2 or 3 vs 5... but we'll see I guess.


If I understand correctly, you're saying he would start "proven" players over youth last year. Or in pressure situations he wouldn't put in youth, but rely on the vets moreso.

I don't understand how Ridnour and B.Gordon starting is congruent with tanking. I would expect the otherwise - you put "proven" vets out there b/c you think they can win the game, until they show otherwise.
NEM wrote: However, I'm a fan of my team winning so, keep the winning coming. All the "tank" fans can take their crap to another board. We are here to win.
Orium
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,007
And1: 349
Joined: Oct 08, 2003

Re: Should the Magic fire JV now or wait abit? 

Post#94 » by Orium » Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:12 pm

My prediction: this is the season that Vaughn proves that this so called "leash" was much longer than given credit for, and many of the blunders were simply mistakes that he doesn't seem to be learning from.

You can't simply erase two seasons, tank or not.
The curse of Fran Vasquez lives on
Duradero
Pro Prospect
Posts: 900
And1: 136
Joined: May 30, 2003
   

Re: Should the Magic fire JV now or wait abit? 

Post#95 » by Duradero » Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:41 pm

It surprises me that a lot of you thought he was going to flip a switch and our playbook would all of a sudden be better/more efficient/not tanking. He's got things he's good at (play out of the time out) but for the most part, he's pretty mediocre. Do we even HAVE a playbook? I haven't seen a practice but I'd really like to know what he's running in those things. 'Do some cardio, take some shots and let's practice an out of bounds play.'

Get mad at a player, stop smiling - he's like Dwight 2.0 with less production. /rant
Orlwillbeback
RealGM
Posts: 11,435
And1: 3,679
Joined: May 23, 2013

Re: Should the Magic fire JV now or wait abit? 

Post#96 » by Orlwillbeback » Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:44 pm

OrlandO wrote:
mhectorgato wrote:
OrlandO wrote:Bucks blew a 24 point lead in the second half and lost to the Hornets. Biggest comeback in Charlotte franchise history. Yet... not a single fire Jason Kidd thread on the Bucks forum.


Do they have 2 years of history with Kidd to see to a pattern continuing into the new season?

Just realized you're the guy who who kept asking people to "prove we're tanking" last season. You obviously have a completely different viewpoint of the coach/team when it comes to comparing this year and the previous years, so I don't really want to get into it with you as it would be pretty pointless.

To be fair, i dont think anyone really answered his question and now that we are supposedly " not tanking" youd think we would be able to answer it now no?

Fact is, last game there was no great overhaul of the offense or better lineups, instead we saw poor ball movement and **** willie green at small forward over harkless.

Jacque should be gone by christmas.
User avatar
OrlandO
RealGM
Posts: 21,634
And1: 16,421
Joined: May 27, 2009

Re: Should the Magic fire JV now or wait abit? 

Post#97 » by OrlandO » Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:34 pm

Orlwillbeback wrote:
OrlandO wrote:
mhectorgato wrote:
Do they have 2 years of history with Kidd to see to a pattern continuing into the new season?

Just realized you're the guy who who kept asking people to "prove we're tanking" last season. You obviously have a completely different viewpoint of the coach/team when it comes to comparing this year and the previous years, so I don't really want to get into it with you as it would be pretty pointless.

To be fair, i dont think anyone really answered his question and now that we are supposedly " not tanking" youd think we would be able to answer it now no?

Fact is, last game there was no great overhaul of the offense or better lineups, instead we saw poor ball movement and **** willie green at small forward over harkless.

Jacque should be gone by christmas.

How can we answer it if our roster is damaged goods right now?
User avatar
OrlandO
RealGM
Posts: 21,634
And1: 16,421
Joined: May 27, 2009

Re: Should the Magic fire JV now or wait abit? 

Post#98 » by OrlandO » Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:53 pm

mhectorgato wrote:
If we can put aside the reason of why he was restricted for a second - if he makes similar "adjustments" (aka matchups, see game 1), and the team has similar flaws (lack of ball movement, poor team defense, strange substitutions, again see game 1) as there were in the previous 2 years, would that make you change your opinion of the previous years?

With two starters out, what exactly was so wrong with our lineup/rotations for game 1?
We are a very young team with a ton of new players and two rookies getting big minutes. Team defense is going to look awful for a while. Even with that in mind, our unhealthy team was going toe to toe with a better, healthier team until ryan anderson had the shooting spree of his life while our #4 pick made some classic rookie mistakes. I'm not discouraged by that at all.


If I understand correctly, you're saying he would start "proven" players over youth last year. Or in pressure situations he wouldn't put in youth, but rely on the vets moreso.

I don't understand how Ridnour and B.Gordon starting is congruent with tanking. I would expect the otherwise - you put "proven" vets out there b/c you think they can win the game, until they show otherwise.

I'd prefer not to get into the tanking debate with you. Just know that I don't think vaughn always got to start/finish with the players he wanted. I also think he deliberately prioritized certain lesser players over our younger, better players. I am not seeing that so far after 1 game. Our best players got the ball and our youngsters got big minutes. Now what I really want to see is what he does with a healthy starting lineup...
User avatar
mhectorgato
RealGM
Posts: 29,446
And1: 574
Joined: Jan 11, 2005
Location: Finals Baby!
 

Re: Should the Magic fire JV now or wait abit? 

Post#99 » by mhectorgato » Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:33 pm

OrlandO wrote:I'd prefer not to get into the tanking debate with you. Just know that I don't think vaughn always got to start/finish with the players he wanted. I also think he deliberately prioritized certain lesser players over our younger, better players. I am not seeing that so far after 1 game. Our best players got the ball and our youngsters got big minutes. Now what I really want to see is what he does with a healthy starting lineup...


Wasn't trying to debate that, but I guess I inadvertently ventured there. I agree, we should defer this conversation until more meaningful games have passed. My irritation at seeing more of the same in the first game (didn't get to see the 2nd) from JV was probably too quick to come out.
NEM wrote: However, I'm a fan of my team winning so, keep the winning coming. All the "tank" fans can take their crap to another board. We are here to win.
User avatar
tiderulz
RealGM
Posts: 36,868
And1: 14,810
Joined: Jun 16, 2010
Location: Atlanta
 

Re: Should the Magic fire JV now or wait abit? 

Post#100 » by tiderulz » Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:35 pm

omg, a team that wasnt even picked to make the playoffs lost their first 2 games to a playoff team and a team that should make the playoffs this year.

Image

Return to Orlando Magic