RickB-Orlando wrote:Here's my reasoning.
- Early each season he struggles. Three different coaches all concluded he needed to be benched to help, the team win. Hell, DJ Augustine was an improvement.
A fair point. My counterpoint is that most of the guards from his class either come off of the bench or have been just as up and down at different points of the season. He still played the best of all of them and finished a top 15 PG in most categories. At 22/23.
My other counterpoint is that Augustin was better for what, about 4 games max? The second time Payton was benched wasafter him playing team-best ball in January for Watson, who at the time was averaging around 30/30 shooting splits. I guarantee that second "benching" was to get something, anything from the bench since he and Vucevic played well there when they were placed there aerlier.
RickB-Orlando wrote:- When the games count, he pukes up stats like nobody's business. But he doesn't make the players around him better, and even when stat stuffing he isn't carrying the team to wins.
I assume you mean don't count? If so, name me one player that played well consistently when Ibaka was here besides Ibaka, and compare that to how many players played better when he left. (AG, Fournier, Payton). I feel like only Ibaka played up to par when he was here and that's it.
Also, Payton was (I forgot what I compiled for pepe last time, but either +50-70 on the floor the last 22 games when Ibaka was traded).That alone, plus his team high win shares means he is helping the team and making it better. The atrocity that was our bench for most of last year does not get enough blame.
Also, I don't know why you state "carry the team" like that's ever been his prerequisite to stay, because nobody on the team does that and I don't think he was ever booked as that sort of guy. If Westbrook throwing up the most ridiculous season since Oscar is barely hobbling a pretty barren but more talented OKC team into the playoffs and getting killed there, there is no way Payton is "carrying" this team.
RickB-Orlando wrote:- He's consistently showed an attitude of 'I just do what I'm told' rather than accepting responsibility for team losses. A winner says something like "I need to help the team play better."
I'd have to see specific examples of this. I've seen him take the blame and be hard for himself when he messes up late. I know he gets a little annoyed at dumb questions after hard losses, but I say that everybody but AG is kinda bad at being professional about that stuff. Not a huge issue to me.
RickB-Orlando wrote:- His defense, which was supposed to be a given, has been average at absolute best, and often sub-par. He's certainly not a plus defender.
I agree with this, but again, we were an abysmal defensive team with Gordon, Biyombo and Ibaka, so there is a teamwide issue going on there.
RickB-Orlando wrote:I know some of the counterarguments to this involve 'new coaches, new systems, not his style of play' and to that insay - it doesn't matter. When we shift to 'his style of play' he still isn't leading us to wins.
But.. all of that does matter. That's where teams lose talented young players to other teams, because they're either forced to play in a system that doesn't benefit them, buried behind lesser talent or they're put in a situation where nothing is consistent, or whatever else can muddy up stuff that pure talent doesn't hide.
This is the first year of a continuous coach for AG and Payton. The offense DID look better the end of the year, the starters played well. The bench did not. It's hard to say that offense cannot work out when we seemed like we were actively trying to lose some games down the stretch by playing our bench and certain lineups for however many minutes.
That's not to say we should build our offense around him or any of our players, just stating how I think there is a lot more people that should be looked at before him, but that's my opinion.
