Stay the course or rebuild now

[Skin]

Love the detailed write up Skin! Fun read.

My biggest question is: what separates that team from what Chicago already is? What elevates them? And is there room for a young wing like Ramsey/Okeke to emerge as a star if they end up being a superior talent?

Also, what's your plan for convincing the DeVos family to sell up?

Thanks! I do try to elevate the fun factor sometimes.

I can see where you might be going with the CHI comparison because they have guys like Otto Porter and Coby White, but I think that's where the comparisons stop. Their frontcourt defense would not compare with ours here. Yes, Thad Young is included but they have decreased his playing time. He hasn't played less mpg since his rookie season. They are focused on development. When you look at Lauri Markkanen, Wendell Carter, Cristiano Felicio, Luke Kornet, Daniel Gafford and compare it to Jonathan Isaac, Al-Farouq Aminu, Paul Reed, Mo Bamba and Khem Birch, there is a big difference. If we can harness our full defensive potential then that would be our big separator. CHI kinda reminds me of our young Magic team when we had Oladipo. Weird mixture of talented players that needs to find a direction and choose who their real keepers are.

[UCFJayBird]

Keep Clifford but make major changes to roster. Only players safe to me: Isaac, Fultz, Okeke, and maybe Ross & Bamba. Just because I still think it's a little early in Bamba's career but if the right deal came along i'd consider throwing him in on a trade. Ross is such a spark plug and a great 6th man that i'd rather hang on to him.

Everyone else is fair game, and I think Evan and Nik need to be traded. I've had in my mind for years that I think that the locker room leadership needs to change, but Evan and Nik have been here for so long now that they're the de facto leaders and it won't really shift until they're gone. The team just leans to them too much and (IMO) stunts other players opportunities. I've never been a huge fan of Evan, but I really do like Nik, and I'll be sad to see him play elsewhere but I think it's time to move on. I also think Aaron is now entering that territory where he'll be the de facto leader if/when they leave, and I don't think that'd be a good move.

I just see our ceiling rising until the on the court dynamic/leadership changes. Also, we need more shooters for crying out loud.

Gordon been here just as long as Fournier and likely seen as just as much a leader the past few years, especially with more name recognition. not saying you are wrong for wanted a change in leadership, just think AG belongs in that group

I guess I was a little vague, but that's what I was alluding to with the last sentence in the paragraph (bolded above). I agree it's probably time for AG to move on as well. He's also probably the biggest trading chip we have that we're realistically willing to give up (especially given the log jam at the position, though Isaac and Okeke are huge question marks due to injury and inexperience).

[Viper1500]

Minor trades will lead to nothing. I want to see everyone go except Isaac and Fultz.

I do truly like Vuc, unless 75% of this board, but he isn't winning us anything being our #1.

[Skin]

That team would be a lot of fun to watch. Probably would be a bottom 10 team in defense. Can’t imagine it is any better than the current team, but not significantly worse either. Another good example of the Magic being stuck.

It would help the team get younger and be more flexible moving forward. Reed would be an absolute steal at that pick. I am still hoping there is a high upside player falls to 15, Anthony, Maxey, Hampton. I like Ramsey, but there are a lot of questions.

Way too much length and athleticism for that team to be bottom 10 in defense. Plus, those cats are hard nosed players. Nothing like our choir boy softies. Coach would have to be a numbskull. Funny you have the imagination that they would be bottom 10 defense and yet nothing better than our current team.

[Skin]

Very nice, detailed write up. I think the moves are mostly lateral. Lineups you wrote lack shooting basketball iq and passing. It would be ugly me first basketball, much worse than we have now. Our ceiling also stays the same, if not lower. We still dont have a star and additionaly we dont have a center.

Sounds like you like our roster too much. So I can't really value this opinion. Lower ceiling? Zach is closer to being an actual star than anything else we have on our roster. Don't bring up Vuc. He's fool's gold. A Fultz-Lavine-Oubre-Isaac-Bamba starting lineup seems far from ugly me-first basketball. Surely it's better than Buddy Ball. Besides, coaching influences the system. What is unknown is how well could they gel and who could be the unknown breakout players. Any of them could be future breakout stars.

[PrimeThyme]

At this point, if I have to accept the fact that this team isn't going to rebuild and will stay the course, I would not be necessarily opposed to that Lavine deal Skin proposed (great write-up btw). Young is a proven starting 4 in this league who has stayed healthy throughout his career and Lavine would be a shot in the arm offensively.

We'd miss Ross but I don't think his production is necessarily irreplaceable. However, with how offensively challenged and dependent on his scoring our bench unit is he just might be for the time being.

We would also still have a glaring hole at the 3 spot. A Lavine/Fournier pairing would be a nightmare defensively and Young/Aminu are 100% 4's. Isaac won't be playing next season.

This makes me think that moving AG for a surefire SF would still be our best bet. Not sure who is truly available though. I don't think any of our other players have value on the open market. Maybe you could dangle a first and Bamba for something, but I wouldn't expect much.

Fournier and a first might get you back a slice of cheese.

[Skin]

first of all, great research, breakdown and right up. that said, i have a few comments (or nitpicks based on opinion)
1 - While i still not necessarily like the efficiency of Rozier, the league is winning with inefficient players. He is still a turnstile on defense (115 DRTG) but i agree that he isnt afraid of the bright lights (time spent with Boston helped this). I believe the team needs a big change of direction, so i wouldnt be against this move. Good thoughts and research

2 - ok, have a little problem here. Oubre to me does not have "similar skills of McGrady". Oubre may "fit" better as a SF, but he is not a good shooter and coming off knee injury i believe (likely not a long term issue). He wanted major money last time and with an increase in ppg, will likely demand that again. trading for Fournier, we lose shooting but its not the end of the world, because

3 - Lavine would likely be the #1 option, with Rozier as the #2. your wings list of Rozier/Lavine/Oubre, there will be scoring but the defense is going to be bad to very bad. that being said, teams are winning with offense so maybe its time for a change. Not like we have won a title with defense.

but with those moves, Fultz goes to the bench. No idea how that will affect his psyche.

no issue with your draft picks.

great all around thoughts and research.

Thanks, you bring up a good point about the league trend of winning despite inefficient players. Efficiency can be overrated if that's the only thing people look at.

As for McGrady, I think people only think of him as a star because of his high ppg, but both his career FG% and 3PT% are right there with Oubre. So how are you judging him as not a good shooter, but saying he's not McGrady. T-Mac blew up being the ONLY option and then he grew from there. I'm viewing it more like T-Mac in Toronto being similar to Oubre in Phoenix. Nobody expected T-Mac to grow into the player he ended up as.

Rozier would be #2 if Isaac and Fultz don't develop... or even Ramsey. Rozier is more ideally fit as a 6th. That's why I have Fultz starting. He's taking Ross' spot. But at the end of games when we need shooting, Rozier would be on the floor in place of Fultz (at least until he develops his range). Rozier was at the right hip of Devonte Graham's development. He could be a positive influence on Fultz as well. I think there are some misconceptions about Scary Terry.

[tiderulz]

first of all, great research, breakdown and right up. that said, i have a few comments (or nitpicks based on opinion)
1 - While i still not necessarily like the efficiency of Rozier, the league is winning with inefficient players. He is still a turnstile on defense (115 DRTG) but i agree that he isnt afraid of the bright lights (time spent with Boston helped this). I believe the team needs a big change of direction, so i wouldnt be against this move. Good thoughts and research

2 - ok, have a little problem here. Oubre to me does not have "similar skills of McGrady". Oubre may "fit" better as a SF, but he is not a good shooter and coming off knee injury i believe (likely not a long term issue). He wanted major money last time and with an increase in ppg, will likely demand that again. trading for Fournier, we lose shooting but its not the end of the world, because

3 - Lavine would likely be the #1 option, with Rozier as the #2. your wings list of Rozier/Lavine/Oubre, there will be scoring but the defense is going to be bad to very bad. that being said, teams are winning with offense so maybe its time for a change. Not like we have won a title with defense.

but with those moves, Fultz goes to the bench. No idea how that will affect his psyche.

no issue with your draft picks.

great all around thoughts and research.

Thanks, you bring up a good point about the league trend of winning despite inefficient players. Efficiency can be overrated if that's the only thing people look at.

As for McGrady, I think people only think of him as a star because of his high ppg, but both his career FG% and 3PT% are right there with Oubre. So how are you judging him as not a good shooter, but saying he's not McGrady. T-Mac blew up being the ONLY option and then he grew from there. I'm viewing it more like T-Mac in Toronto being similar to Oubre in Phoenix. Nobody expected T-Mac to grow into the player he ended up as.

Rozier would be #2 if Isaac and Fultz don't develop... or even Ramsey. Rozier is more ideally fit as a 6th. That's why I have Fultz starting. He's taking Ross' spot. But at the end of games when we need shooting, Rozier would be on the floor in place of Fultz (at least until he develops his range). Rozier was at the right hip of Devonte Graham's development. He could be a positive influence on Fultz as well. I think there are some misconceptions about Scary Terry.

McGrady had handles, shot creation, great passing. Tracy was 5 apg career, Oubre less than 1 apg. Oubre seems athletic, but i just dont see any McGrady in him. And Tracy was trending up big time. people may not have seen HOF, but many people expected him to explode. And i dont see Rozier, after being 6th man in Boston, getting starter job in Charlotte, being happy to be 6th man to Fultz here.

[Skin]

first of all, great research, breakdown and right up. that said, i have a few comments (or nitpicks based on opinion)
1 - While i still not necessarily like the efficiency of Rozier, the league is winning with inefficient players. He is still a turnstile on defense (115 DRTG) but i agree that he isnt afraid of the bright lights (time spent with Boston helped this). I believe the team needs a big change of direction, so i wouldnt be against this move. Good thoughts and research

2 - ok, have a little problem here. Oubre to me does not have "similar skills of McGrady". Oubre may "fit" better as a SF, but he is not a good shooter and coming off knee injury i believe (likely not a long term issue). He wanted major money last time and with an increase in ppg, will likely demand that again. trading for Fournier, we lose shooting but its not the end of the world, because

3 - Lavine would likely be the #1 option, with Rozier as the #2. your wings list of Rozier/Lavine/Oubre, there will be scoring but the defense is going to be bad to very bad. that being said, teams are winning with offense so maybe its time for a change. Not like we have won a title with defense.

but with those moves, Fultz goes to the bench. No idea how that will affect his psyche.

no issue with your draft picks.

great all around thoughts and research.

Thanks, you bring up a good point about the league trend of winning despite inefficient players. Efficiency can be overrated if that's the only thing people look at.

As for McGrady, I think people only think of him as a star because of his high ppg, but both his career FG% and 3PT% are right there with Oubre. So how are you judging him as not a good shooter, but saying he's not McGrady. T-Mac blew up being the ONLY option and then he grew from there. I'm viewing it more like T-Mac in Toronto being similar to Oubre in Phoenix. Nobody expected T-Mac to grow into the player he ended up as.

Rozier would be #2 if Isaac and Fultz don't develop... or even Ramsey. Rozier is more ideally fit as a 6th. That's why I have Fultz starting. He's taking Ross' spot. But at the end of games when we need shooting, Rozier would be on the floor in place of Fultz (at least until he develops his range). Rozier was at the right hip of Devonte Graham's development. He could be a positive influence on Fultz as well. I think there are some misconceptions about Scary Terry.

McGrady had handles, shot creation, great passing. Tracy was 5 apg career, Oubre less than 1 apg. Oubre seems athletic, but i just dont see any McGrady in him. And Tracy was trending up big time. people may not have seen HOF, but many people expected him to explode. And i dont see Rozier, after being 6th man in Boston, getting starter job in Charlotte, being happy to be 6th man to Fultz here.

Well, I wasn't trying to make a side by side player comparison. More like player situation comparison. Then you said Oubre wasn't a shooter and I was just pointing out that T-Mac has similar shooting percentages. If you remember my original post I acknowledged that... I said maybe he could have a TJ Warren or Oladipo type breakout.

[Skin]

Great post Skin. Not going to copy and paste due to how long is it is, but I liked every trade. Congrats on making the best post since the break in the season.

I do think it’s possible (and likely) that team doesn’t eclipse this year’s win total. But I do feel as though it has more upside and offensive versatility.

LaVine has more offensive upside than any player going out in the deal. I like Oubre’s fit as a true wing more than AG on the roster. Rozier would bring serious firepower off the bench too, which we are severely lacking in.

C position is a little thin, but luckily it’s the easiest position to fill and depth can be found via MLE/2nd round/UDFA/overseas. I’d much rather invest the ~30mill that goes to Vuc every year in other positions. And we would get to see Bamba sink or swim.

I do think with a personnel change so significant, there would be no reason to keep Clifford around and I’d rather try our luck at a first time NBA head coach. No more retreads.

Glad you liked it. I wanted to show that gutting this team doesn't necessarily mean tanking for a top pick.

Agreed C is thin, but yeah it's much easier to fill. Hopefully Bamba pans out.

[Skybox]

Great post Skin. Not going to copy and paste due to how long is it is, but I liked every trade. Congrats on making the best post since the break in the season.

I do think it’s possible (and likely) that team doesn’t eclipse this year’s win total. But I do feel as though it has more upside and offensive versatility.

LaVine has more offensive upside than any player going out in the deal. I like Oubre’s fit as a true wing more than AG on the roster. Rozier would bring serious firepower off the bench too, which we are severely lacking in.

C position is a little thin, but luckily it’s the easiest position to fill and depth can be found via MLE/2nd round/UDFA/overseas. I’d much rather invest the ~30mill that goes to Vuc every year in other positions. And we would get to see Bamba sink or swim.

I do think with a personnel change so significant, there would be no reason to keep Clifford around and I’d rather try our luck at a first time NBA head coach. No more retreads.

Glad you liked it. I wanted to show that gutting this team doesn't necessarily mean tanking for a top pick.

Agreed C is thin, but yeah it's much easier to fill. Hopefully Bamba pans out.

Agreed...if we get some scorers/ball handlers, we can always bring in a Lopez/Zaza type while hoping for Bamba to click

[Skin]

Ya'll should do the same exercise I just did. It was fun, but I'd be interested to see what you come up with as well.

[Ducklett]

The only thing that can keep me positive about this team is thinking about what kind of future we could have if we blew things up.

To some, that means tanking, but I don't think that has to be the case.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
TRADES - Here's some trade examples that I vetted through other teams fans.
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Trade 1: Vucevic to Charlotte for Terry Rozier

Hmmm, a straight swap of Rozier for Vucevic is interesting, but salaries don't match up.

we have cap room

It was tough finding a trade partner for Vuc. I was bashed for liking Rozier in the past and critics bashed his FG efficiency. Well, he raised all his numbers after getting unleashed away from Boston and has looked good. 18 ppg, .407 3PT%, .430 FG%, and his last game before "the pause" he put up 40 points which included shooting 8 of 13 from 3. Rozier is 26 years old and has 2 more years under contract after this season. Young enough to grow with our youth, but also be a leader. His addition DOES NOT mean giving up on Fultz. It puts less pressure on Fultz, but that can be a good thing. He needs time to work on his 3PT shot. Rozier can be put in at the end of games as he likes taking big shots. He has also played a lot of SG this season as he made way for the huge emergence of Devonte Graham even after he signed a big new contract. I think a 3 man rotation between the 1 and 2 would easily work.

I first started liking Rozier while watching Boston in the playoffs. The floor was not too big for him and he played like a dawg. Didn't step down to anyone. I've always liked the strategy of getting young guys who have been a part of winning teams and know what it takes to be there. Especially if they had a significant role. We NEED more toughness and Scary Terry helps add that. Lowry doesn't get away for hurting AG if Terry is on the team.


Trade 2: Fournier to Phoenix for Kelly Oubre and a future 1st round swap where PHX gains the advantage.

...if Fournier picks up his PO, I'd trade Oubre for him and your pick (or 2021 lightly protected / pick swap, so we can chase a PG). I'd include Okobo for salary matching.

I think Evan could play on the wing alongside either Book or Bridges in a three man rotation.

I like Fournier and consider that, especially if we draft a PG, big or sell our pick.

I initially approached the Suns fans about Gordon, but they ended up liking Fournier more. Fiiiiine by me! Oubre has Energy and Swag to change the identity of this team. 24 years old. Length, Athleticism, Scoring, Spacing, Defense and another guy who plays with a chip on his shoulder. Ever since T-Mac showed us it was possible, I've always had a fascination on players on other teams who could be our next T-Mac like breakout player. Oubre has similar athletic size and skills as T-Mac and has never been truly appreciated. Could have a T-Mac like breakout happen again? Haha...ooooookkkkk... ok.... even if that's a bit overzealous, I'd be happy if he had an Oladipo or TJ Warren like breakout tbh.

Watch on YouTube

Trade 3: Gordon/Ross to Chicago for Lavine/Thad Young

I think that's the perfect deal. And1. Dial it into the commish's office.

Yup, I could live with that deal as well. Well done

I think that's the perfect deal. And1. Dial it into the commish's office.

I will probably take this as well

...AND NOW WE'RE COOKIN'! Rozier/Lavine/Oubre on the wings is DYNAMITE. You might think there are not enough shots to go around, but when you subtract the amount of shots that Fournier, Ross, Gordon and Vuc took, there are PLENTY enough shots to go around for our new trio and both Rozier and Lavine average over 4 apg, so they are not ball stoppers. Thad Young and his 7'1 wingspan is another prototype fit for WeHam's desire for a roster full of long wingspans and at 32 years old he knows his role as a starter will be temporary until Jonathan Isaac returns from injury.

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FREE AGENCY
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SAY BYE, BYE!
DJ Augustin
Michael Carter Williams
Melvin Frazier
Gary Clark

WELCOME BACK!
Wes Iwundu


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DRAFT
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1ST ROUND, PICK 15 - GUARD, JAHMI'US RAMSEY - 6'4 (6'10 Wingspan), 195

Tired of projects with length, but no size, that need to learn basketball skills? Then Ramsey is your cure. Ramsey is a baller's baller. This guy has an NBA ready body and scores on all 3 levels. 43% 3PT%, smooth handles, footwork, can carve a defense and score in bunches. Uses his long wingspan and athleticism to produce explosive plays on offense and defense. He fills depth at both Guard spots and certainly has the potential to be a star as he continues to develop his game. Shades of Donovan Mitchell.

Watch on YouTube

2ND ROUND, PICK 45 - FORWARD, PAUL REED, DEPAUL - 6'9 (7'2 Wingspan), 220

With Aaron Gordon gone (in this scenario) and Jonathan Isaac hurt, PF is an area that can be strengthened through the draft as both Thad Young and Al-Farouq Aminu are both aged veterans. Some folks compare Reed to a poor man's Pascal Siakam "type" of prospect. Certain qualities stand out right away... his length, controlled body contortion and mobility with the ball, smooth aggressiveness, shoots with confidence, and maybe most impressively and defensive demon who averaged 2.6 bpg and 1.9 spg. "His defensive presence has arguably been his most important trait as a college basketball player. He currently leads the conference in blocks, defensive win shares, defensive rating and defensive box plus-minus. Meanwhile, his block percentage (12.2 percent) ranks Top 20 in the nation." If you haven't heard of Paul Reed, I encourage you to check him out.

Good read: https://hoopshype.com/2019/12/09/depaul-paul-reed-scouting-report-nba-draft-analysis/

Read on Twitter

Watch on YouTube

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2020-21 ROSTER - Name Wingspan (Age)
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PG Markelle Fultz 6’9 (22) / 6TH Terry Rozier 6’8 (26)
SG Zach Lavine 6’8 (25) / Jahmi’us Ramsey 6’10 (19) / Wes Iwundu 7’1 (25)
SF Kelly Oubre 7’3 (24) / Chuma Okeke 7’0 (21) / James Ennis 7’0 (30)
PF Thad Young 7’1 (32) / Paul Reed 7'2 (21) / IR Jonathan Isaac 7’1 (22)
C Mo Bamba 7’10 (22) / Khem Birch 7’ (27) / Al-Faruq Aminu 7’3 (29)

-- Future --
PG Markelle Fultz / Terry Rozier
SG Zach Lavine / Jahmi'us Ramsey
SF Kelly Oubre / Chuma Okeke
PF Jonathan Isaac / Paul Reed
C Mo Bamba / FA or Draft




Versatility ALL OVER. Big boost in wing scoring, spacing, athleticism, and tenacity. Similar age range for core players can lead to longevity and consistency. Vets on the roster are ones who understand their roles and are not "looking for theirs" or using us as "stepping stones" to bigger/better deals. Are they contenders? Maybe, maybe not, but this would be a super fun team to watch with plenty of hope for a brighter future each year they stay together. As Isaac returns from injury this team could really start to be a part of the new NBA contenders. Whaddayasay??? Do you like it? Yes or No? or

How did we pick Ramsey if you traded our pick for Oubre? You can't possibly want to trade our 21 pick for Oubre, right?

With how much Isaac's health has burned us, I don't feel comfortable trading for another guy with knee surgeries this year.

[pepe1991]

1# trade



Fun fact: Terry Rozier left Boston because he DID NOT WANT TO COME OFF BENCH.

2# trade Evan trade for Oubre is impossible until Evan picks player's option.
Oubre is expiring contract, Suns can shop him for more value elsewhere, probably to contender that can use some bench depth help in return for dead salary and pick.

3# trade
Bulls have below zero reasons to trade for any SF, PF or C.
SF ; Otto Porter and his overpriced contract, Denzel Valentine, rookie scale contract Hutchison
PF : Markannen
C: Gafford and Wendell Carter

On other hand they have no starting PG, and without Lavine, no starting two-guard.
Gordon isn't any better than healthy Porter for SF, and isn't any more brigther "star" than Markannen. So he would do what execlly? Play off bench on team that starts Tomas Satoransky and Coby White?

Fact: Bamba would not start on any nba team today nor any team any time soon.

Another fun fact: how execlly are you trading same pick two times?

Fun fact 2: Suns record with Oubre: 22-34
Suns record without Oubre : 12-5

Guys like Oubre and Rozier have name value, but smart GMs know, mostly by watching Knicks and Nets rosters over years, that name value has no - playing value. Oubre on serious team is 20-ish min per game bench player due no BBIQ and defense, along with too big ego to fit a building. We know for fact that Celtics moved Rozier for that specific reason.
Rozier last year in playoffs averaged 6 points on 32% FG, during regular season he averaged 9 points on 38% FG.
He is averaging lot of points now because he plays on 23-42 team and shoots 15 times a game. His efficiency is still just around league's average, but if you look how much points he adds by shooting- negative 27 ( 4th worst on whole Hornets roster).

[zaymon]

Very nice, detailed write up. I think the moves are mostly lateral. Lineups you wrote lack shooting basketball iq and passing. It would be ugly me first basketball, much worse than we have now. Our ceiling also stays the same, if not lower. We still dont have a star and additionaly we dont have a center.

Sounds like you like our roster too much. So I can't really value this opinion. Lower ceiling? Zach is closer to being an actual star than anything else we have on our roster. Don't bring up Vuc. He's fool's gold. A Fultz-Lavine-Oubre-Isaac-Bamba starting lineup seems far from ugly me-first basketball. Surely it's better than Buddy Ball. Besides, coaching influences the system. What is unknown is how well could they gel and who could be the unknown breakout players. Any of them could be future breakout stars.

So you value only opinions of people who agree with you ? Seems like Earvin "Magic" Johnson aproach. I am not thrilled with our team, but i think trades you proposed make us significantly worse, without raising our ceiling. You trade for as you mentioned yourself "fools gold" players and expect to start winning ? I did comparison of Lavine vs Fournier. Lavine is better at drawing fouls, and isolation, Fournier is better at everything else. Most importantly Fournier is better at handling the ball and decision making.
Oubre is atrocious passer, with 6,6% assist percantage. He refuses to pass the ball, and cant make the right play by himself.
Rozier is another underwhelming passer with suspect decision making.
All players you suggested are bad defenders, bad to average passers, and low basketball iq guys. Ramsey is exactly the same type.
Not even one of the players above fit with Isaac who is a below average passer himself. I wont even start on Bamba.
If we want to go into Tmac direction, Levert seems like the only viable option. I propably wouldnt do it becouse it doesnt raise our ceiling, but next year we would be much better. I could talk myself into it, if we showcased him as a lead ball handler and then traded when Isaac is back.
I appreciate your effort, and every idea is worth considering, but i just dont like this one.

[tiderulz]

Thanks, you bring up a good point about the league trend of winning despite inefficient players. Efficiency can be overrated if that's the only thing people look at.

As for McGrady, I think people only think of him as a star because of his high ppg, but both his career FG% and 3PT% are right there with Oubre. So how are you judging him as not a good shooter, but saying he's not McGrady. T-Mac blew up being the ONLY option and then he grew from there. I'm viewing it more like T-Mac in Toronto being similar to Oubre in Phoenix. Nobody expected T-Mac to grow into the player he ended up as.

Rozier would be #2 if Isaac and Fultz don't develop... or even Ramsey. Rozier is more ideally fit as a 6th. That's why I have Fultz starting. He's taking Ross' spot. But at the end of games when we need shooting, Rozier would be on the floor in place of Fultz (at least until he develops his range). Rozier was at the right hip of Devonte Graham's development. He could be a positive influence on Fultz as well. I think there are some misconceptions about Scary Terry.

McGrady had handles, shot creation, great passing. Tracy was 5 apg career, Oubre less than 1 apg. Oubre seems athletic, but i just dont see any McGrady in him. And Tracy was trending up big time. people may not have seen HOF, but many people expected him to explode. And i dont see Rozier, after being 6th man in Boston, getting starter job in Charlotte, being happy to be 6th man to Fultz here.

Well, I wasn't trying to make a side by side player comparison. More like player situation comparison. Then you said Oubre wasn't a shooter and I was just pointing out that T-Mac has similar shooting percentages. If you remember my original post I acknowledged that... I said maybe he could have a TJ Warren or Oladipo type breakout.

I may have read too much into it. I just saw

Ever since T-Mac showed us it was possible, I've always had a fascination on players on other teams who could be our next T-Mac like breakout player. Oubre has similar athletic size and skills as T-Mac and has never been truly appreciated

and though, Oubre does not have similar skills as T-Mac. I agree McGrady was not a great showing shooter in Toronto and didnt become a decent shooter until later in his career. Oubre may very well blossom more and did raise his game up this past year. Sorry, didnt mean to come across too criticizing if i did. like i said, great research and thoughts overall.

[tiderulz]

The only thing that can keep me positive about this team is thinking about what kind of future we could have if we blew things up.

To some, that means tanking, but I don't think that has to be the case.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
TRADES - Here's some trade examples that I vetted through other teams fans.
---------------------------------------------------------------------


Trade 1: Vucevic to Charlotte for Terry Rozier

we have cap room

It was tough finding a trade partner for Vuc. I was bashed for liking Rozier in the past and critics bashed his FG efficiency. Well, he raised all his numbers after getting unleashed away from Boston and has looked good. 18 ppg, .407 3PT%, .430 FG%, and his last game before "the pause" he put up 40 points which included shooting 8 of 13 from 3. Rozier is 26 years old and has 2 more years under contract after this season. Young enough to grow with our youth, but also be a leader. His addition DOES NOT mean giving up on Fultz. It puts less pressure on Fultz, but that can be a good thing. He needs time to work on his 3PT shot. Rozier can be put in at the end of games as he likes taking big shots. He has also played a lot of SG this season as he made way for the huge emergence of Devonte Graham even after he signed a big new contract. I think a 3 man rotation between the 1 and 2 would easily work.

I first started liking Rozier while watching Boston in the playoffs. The floor was not too big for him and he played like a dawg. Didn't step down to anyone. I've always liked the strategy of getting young guys who have been a part of winning teams and know what it takes to be there. Especially if they had a significant role. We NEED more toughness and Scary Terry helps add that. Lowry doesn't get away for hurting AG if Terry is on the team.


Trade 2: Fournier to Phoenix for Kelly Oubre and a future 1st round swap where PHX gains the advantage.

I like Fournier and consider that, especially if we draft a PG, big or sell our pick.

I initially approached the Suns fans about Gordon, but they ended up liking Fournier more. Fiiiiine by me! Oubre has Energy and Swag to change the identity of this team. 24 years old. Length, Athleticism, Scoring, Spacing, Defense and another guy who plays with a chip on his shoulder. Ever since T-Mac showed us it was possible, I've always had a fascination on players on other teams who could be our next T-Mac like breakout player. Oubre has similar athletic size and skills as T-Mac and has never been truly appreciated. Could have a T-Mac like breakout happen again? Haha...ooooookkkkk... ok.... even if that's a bit overzealous, I'd be happy if he had an Oladipo or TJ Warren like breakout tbh.

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Trade 3: Gordon/Ross to Chicago for Lavine/Thad Young

Yup, I could live with that deal as well. Well done

I will probably take this as well

...AND NOW WE'RE COOKIN'! Rozier/Lavine/Oubre on the wings is DYNAMITE. You might think there are not enough shots to go around, but when you subtract the amount of shots that Fournier, Ross, Gordon and Vuc took, there are PLENTY enough shots to go around for our new trio and both Rozier and Lavine average over 4 apg, so they are not ball stoppers. Thad Young and his 7'1 wingspan is another prototype fit for WeHam's desire for a roster full of long wingspans and at 32 years old he knows his role as a starter will be temporary until Jonathan Isaac returns from injury.

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FREE AGENCY
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SAY BYE, BYE!
DJ Augustin
Michael Carter Williams
Melvin Frazier
Gary Clark

WELCOME BACK!
Wes Iwundu


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DRAFT
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1ST ROUND, PICK 15 - GUARD, JAHMI'US RAMSEY - 6'4 (6'10 Wingspan), 195

Tired of projects with length, but no size, that need to learn basketball skills? Then Ramsey is your cure. Ramsey is a baller's baller. This guy has an NBA ready body and scores on all 3 levels. 43% 3PT%, smooth handles, footwork, can carve a defense and score in bunches. Uses his long wingspan and athleticism to produce explosive plays on offense and defense. He fills depth at both Guard spots and certainly has the potential to be a star as he continues to develop his game. Shades of Donovan Mitchell.

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2ND ROUND, PICK 45 - FORWARD, PAUL REED, DEPAUL - 6'9 (7'2 Wingspan), 220

With Aaron Gordon gone (in this scenario) and Jonathan Isaac hurt, PF is an area that can be strengthened through the draft as both Thad Young and Al-Farouq Aminu are both aged veterans. Some folks compare Reed to a poor man's Pascal Siakam "type" of prospect. Certain qualities stand out right away... his length, controlled body contortion and mobility with the ball, smooth aggressiveness, shoots with confidence, and maybe most impressively and defensive demon who averaged 2.6 bpg and 1.9 spg. "His defensive presence has arguably been his most important trait as a college basketball player. He currently leads the conference in blocks, defensive win shares, defensive rating and defensive box plus-minus. Meanwhile, his block percentage (12.2 percent) ranks Top 20 in the nation." If you haven't heard of Paul Reed, I encourage you to check him out.

Good read: https://hoopshype.com/2019/12/09/depaul-paul-reed-scouting-report-nba-draft-analysis/

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Watch on YouTube

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2020-21 ROSTER - Name Wingspan (Age)
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PG Markelle Fultz 6’9 (22) / 6TH Terry Rozier 6’8 (26)
SG Zach Lavine 6’8 (25) / Jahmi’us Ramsey 6’10 (19) / Wes Iwundu 7’1 (25)
SF Kelly Oubre 7’3 (24) / Chuma Okeke 7’0 (21) / James Ennis 7’0 (30)
PF Thad Young 7’1 (32) / Paul Reed 7'2 (21) / IR Jonathan Isaac 7’1 (22)
C Mo Bamba 7’10 (22) / Khem Birch 7’ (27) / Al-Faruq Aminu 7’3 (29)

-- Future --
PG Markelle Fultz / Terry Rozier
SG Zach Lavine / Jahmi'us Ramsey
SF Kelly Oubre / Chuma Okeke
PF Jonathan Isaac / Paul Reed
C Mo Bamba / FA or Draft




Versatility ALL OVER. Big boost in wing scoring, spacing, athleticism, and tenacity. Similar age range for core players can lead to longevity and consistency. Vets on the roster are ones who understand their roles and are not "looking for theirs" or using us as "stepping stones" to bigger/better deals. Are they contenders? Maybe, maybe not, but this would be a super fun team to watch with plenty of hope for a brighter future each year they stay together. As Isaac returns from injury this team could really start to be a part of the new NBA contenders. Whaddayasay??? Do you like it? Yes or No? or

How did we pick Ramsey if you traded our pick for Oubre? You can't possibly want to trade our 21 pick for Oubre, right?

With how much Isaac's health has burned us, I don't feel comfortable trading for another guy with knee surgeries this year.

well, he did say pick swap, not just giving a pick. and for surgery, it was just arthroscopic, 4 week recovery. Westbrook has had this surgery and he didnt lose much if any explosiveness. Zion had this same knee surgery last year, Lonzo Ball, Paul George. You obviously would want doctors to check him out, but his type of injury doesnt scare me too much. And you have a year to watch and evaluate if it would become a long term issue

[tiderulz]

1# trade



Fun fact: Terry Rozier left Boston because he DID NOT WANT TO COME OFF BENCH.

2# trade Evan trade for Oubre is impossible until Evan picks player's option.
Oubre is expiring contract, Suns can shop him for more value elsewhere, probably to contender that can use some bench depth help in return for dead salary and pick.

3# trade
Bulls have below zero reasons to trade for any SF, PF or C.
SF ; Otto Porter and his overpriced contract, Denzel Valentine, rookie scale contract Hutchison
PF : Markannen
C: Gafford and Wendell Carter

On other hand they have no starting PG, and without Lavine, no starting two-guard.
Gordon isn't any better than healthy Porter for SF, and isn't any more brigther "star" than Markannen. So he would do what execlly? Play off bench on team that starts Tomas Satoransky and Coby White?

Fact: Bamba would not start on any nba team today nor any team any time soon.

Another fun fact: how execlly are you trading same pick two times?

Fun fact 2: Suns record with Oubre: 22-34
Suns record without Oubre : 12-5

Guys like Oubre and Rozier have name value, but smart GMs know, mostly by watching Knicks and Nets rosters over years, that name value has no - playing value. Oubre on serious team is 20-ish min per game bench player due no BBIQ and defense, along with too big ego to fit a building. We know for fact that Celtics moved Rozier for that specific reason.
Rozier last year in playoffs averaged 6 points on 32% FG, during regular season he averaged 9 points on 38% FG.
He is averaging lot of points now because he plays on 23-42 team and shoots 15 times a game. His efficiency is still just around league's average, but if you look how much points he adds by shooting- negative 27 ( 4th worst on whole Hornets roster).

how many of those losses with Oubre were without Ayton? with young players not ready for the NBA? Rozier didnt do good in the playoffs last year, but has played well previously. Also, how do you say he trades the same pick twice? i only saw a pick swap. And Oubre's defense was better this past year. He hasnt been playing for any coaches really known for defense.

you seem awfully critical of this without offering any alternatives. I have previously been like this and if i dont like something, i at least would want to offer an alternative.

[Skin]

How did we pick Ramsey if you traded our pick for Oubre? You can't possibly want to trade our 21 pick for Oubre, right?

With how much Isaac's health has burned us, I don't feel comfortable trading for another guy with knee surgeries this year.

The pick is a FUTURE 1st rounder (in a pick swap) where PHX gains an advantage in moving up. That may or may not be in 2021.

Oubre might be returning to play soon. A torn meniscus is not an ACL or even MCL injury. Trading him for Fournier is a big win, especially in terms of changing team culture.

“I’ve been saying since Day One he’s kind of the heart of the team,” Ricky Rubio said. “He brings a lot, not just scoring. Momentum, good energy, on and off the court, he helps us a lot.”

[Skin]

1# trade



Fun fact: Terry Rozier left Boston because he DID NOT WANT TO COME OFF BENCH.

2# trade Evan trade for Oubre is impossible until Evan picks player's option.
Oubre is expiring contract, Suns can shop him for more value elsewhere, probably to contender that can use some bench depth help in return for dead salary and pick.

3# trade
Bulls have below zero reasons to trade for any SF, PF or C.
SF ; Otto Porter and his overpriced contract, Denzel Valentine, rookie scale contract Hutchison
PF : Markannen
C: Gafford and Wendell Carter

On other hand they have no starting PG, and without Lavine, no starting two-guard.
Gordon isn't any better than healthy Porter for SF, and isn't any more brigther "star" than Markannen. So he would do what execlly? Play off bench on team that starts Tomas Satoransky and Coby White?

Fact: Bamba would not start on any nba team today nor any team any time soon.

Another fun fact: how execlly are you trading same pick two times?

Fun fact 2: Suns record with Oubre: 22-34
Suns record without Oubre : 12-5

Guys like Oubre and Rozier have name value, but smart GMs know, mostly by watching Knicks and Nets rosters over years, that name value has no - playing value. Oubre on serious team is 20-ish min per game bench player due no BBIQ and defense, along with too big ego to fit a building. We know for fact that Celtics moved Rozier for that specific reason.
Rozier last year in playoffs averaged 6 points on 32% FG, during regular season he averaged 9 points on 38% FG.
He is averaging lot of points now because he plays on 23-42 team and shoots 15 times a game. His efficiency is still just around league's average, but if you look how much points he adds by shooting- negative 27 ( 4th worst on whole Hornets roster).

#1 trade: It doesn't work in the trade machine because that tool doesn't take into account what the Hornets cap space will look like this summer. The Hornets only have $80M in committed salary. This year's cap limit was $115M. Even if it stays the same or is lowered, they should still have enough to absorb the $8M difference between Vuc and Rozier.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/charlotte-hornets/yearly/cap/

Rozier didn't want to come off the bench in Boston because he was entering FA and wanted to get paid. Now that he's been paid, it's a non-issue. ...and even when it was an issue, he was still a TEAM first guy and that storyline was being overly dramatic.

"I go from starting in the playoffs to coming off the bench. ... I'm pretty sure it's not easy for nobody. But I'm not complaining. And, if you know me, I would never be the one to complain about it. "I would never go to the media or bring out the unhappy thing. Like I said, people that know me know I wouldn't do that. I've never been a selfish type of person, selfish player. You can tell the way I play I'm all about team. "Everything will be all right. It's not as bad as people make it seem."

“I’m going to be coming off the bench, like I’ve been saying, and I want to make an impact when I come in,” he said on Monday. “Obviously, I’m not the starter. I’m OK with that. We’re way past that now. Now it’s what I do when I come into the game, impacting the game, that’s what I want to do.”

He had no issues making room for "Most Improved Player" candidate Devonte Graham who had a huge breakout season. Terry just want court time.

#2 trade: Yes, it does depend on Fournier opting-in. What would you say the odds are of that? Likely or unlikely? ...and Oubre will be a FA in 2021 since he signed a 2 year deal this past offseason. He is not a FA after this season.

#3 trade: I wouldn't have used a trade scenario if Bulls fans didn't like it. That was one of the criteria I wanted to ensure before including any trade scenario in this rebuild. You know their team better than their own fans? They are a frustrated fan base just like us and Markannen is in a lot of trade talks on their forum... they absolutely LOVE Coby White (not sure why you overlook him). They love him so much they'd move Zach to make him the face of the franchise.

https://pippenainteasy.com/2020/07/27/3-reasons-why-the-chicago-bulls-should-trade-zach-lavine/4/

Coby White has a better shot at becoming the face of the franchise
There’s just little to no chance at this point that a LaVine-led Bulls team is going to take this group to the heights of true contention in the Eastern Conference. The Bulls do have a very solid piece in the starting five with LaVine at the two guard, but he likely won’t become the superstar that he sometimes look like he could become.

#1 Fun Fact: Bamba could start, but it doesn't mean he logs 30-35 mpg. We will know more about his conditioning after he has a full offseason to learn his new body and take the proper conditioning. I'll say this.... if he isn't starting at all in ANY part of the future, then WeHam will have major egg on their faces.

...and what are you talking about... the same draft pick being traded twice??? Your responses are totally out of sync.

#2 Fun Fact: How much of that losing do you credit to one player? I'm curious if you would use that same logic in your defense of Fournier... or Vucevic.