Orlando Magic Official Training Camp Thread - 9/27 to 10/9

[Ducklett]

It's funny that JI says he's "healthy" (I mean in a JI healthy way) and there's video of him as well and people are still stuck on the "HE ISN'T READY!" part by Weltman which.. of course they're going to work him in slowly. Haven't we been predicting he'd come off the bench with a minutes restriction? He's going to have to shake two years of rust so I have no issues with what they're doing or what was said. Unless it comes out they're not playing him until January or something then let's calm a bit with the panic

$17,400,000

That is like 1/9th of what we paid Gilbert Arenas. Who cares.

I'm trying to see more of that Franz.

[JF5]

I never understood why people are so mad about a guy's pay on a tanking/semi team. If this was even a middling/on the cusp team then I would understand. But the Magic have to pay somebody to reach the cap floor. Might as well spend it on guys with talent and gobs of potential. A team like the Magic have the time to focus on reclamation projects like Fultz/Issac.

If it works... Then you have more assets/pieces to push you to winning quicker. If not you can let them go with no major effect to what you want to do in the future cap wise trying to sign/resign players.

People are frustrated about injuries. But seeing how things have worked out the last 2 years I personally see no reason to be that upset. Everything has worked out for the most part.

[ORLMagicGirl15]

Watch on YouTube

Last 10 years has been rough… Thought you guys might like this behind the scene look at media day.

[fendilim]

I never understood why people are so mad about a guy's pay on a tanking/semi team. If this was even a middling/on the cusp team then I would understand. But the Magic have to pay somebody to reach the cap floor. Might as well spend it on guys with talent and gobs of potential. A team like the Magic have the time to focus on reclamation projects like Fultz/Issac.

If it works... Then you have more assets/pieces to push you to winning quicker. If not you can let them go with no major effect to what you want to do in the future cap wise trying to sign/resign players.

People are frustrated about injuries. But seeing how things have worked out the last 2 years I personally see no reason to be that upset. Everything has worked out for the most part.

Spoiled attitude. They can’t get the what they want from management.

[pepe1991]

Fact checking.

1) nba is salary restrcited league, so every time you resign somebody, it takes away potential to sign somebody else
2) Fultz and Isaac combine for over $30M a year. That over last 2 years is around 30% of all Magic aveliable cap
3) Isaac was resigned injuried, without any hope to play in his contract year
4) In times Magic resigned them, Orlando did not have much cap space to work with, their exstension impacted their flexiblity further
5 ) One of main reasons why Orlando was in position where they have to re-re-rebuild is because 1/4th of cap space was dead due their ties with Fultz & Isaac


I don't give a damn what players make, but there isn't much difference between some poisen Kemba Walker $35M 2021-22 contract and Isaac and Fultz playing 18 games combined, in same period of time, owning $35M combined.

Asset is only asset if somebody is willing to give you something in return.
Fultz in particular isn't very valuable basketball player in nba. Aside from being average/below average defender, well below average shooter , scorer with subpar efficiency his aveliablility hardly makes him any better than guys like Dennis Schroder, who plays on $2,6M a year contract. For some backup PG you would probably rather have Cam Payne on $6M thatn Fultz on $16M contract .


Whole angle of "things worked out great, they are broken but we win lottery" is laughable take. You might as well had John Wall in that period and "achive" same resulsts.
So what execlly having two broken players brings you but needed salary floor? And what's the difference between paying dead cap to some Kevin Love or those two? Notion they are "young"? Well Kevin Love actually suits up to play from time to time, unlike them.

Also winning lottery is great, but is complete luck and it takes no strategy nor planning to achive. Magic could just as easly drafted 5th and everybody would be crying whole summer. Magic got lucky, drafted Banchero. Great. But roster still makes no funcional sense and is still poised to lose 50 games in next season, even if everybody is healthy. So we are still 2 years away from being 2 years away from anything.

[drsd]

Watch on YouTube

Last 10 years has been rough… Thought you guys might like this behind the scene look at media day.

Banchero has what Larry Bird called "soft muscle". After two years in the Magic weight room, Paolo is going to look like a greek-god. It is clear his upper body has a huge amount of room for weight and mass. Banchero could evolve in to the strongest, most physical PF in the league.

And speaking of muscles, that video reveals huge gains for Bamba in his upper body. He now looks to be supporting the frame we fans have been waiting for. No more being pushed around.


..

[drsd]

Magic could just as easly drafted 5th and everybody would be crying whole summer. Magic got lucky, drafted Banchero. Great. But roster still makes no funcional sense and is still poised to lose 50 games in next season, even if everybody is healthy. So we are still 2 years away from being 2 years away from anything.

Did you have a Mr. #5 in mind? That Jaden Ivey went 5 speaks miles here. As does this #5:

[drsd]

$17,400,000

That is like 1/9th of what we paid Gilbert Arenas. Who cares.

I'm trying to see more of that Franz.

Isaac's contract is the same cost as the new Magic training centre. Which is a better investment for the team?


..

[pepe1991]

Magic could just as easly drafted 5th and everybody would be crying whole summer. Magic got lucky, drafted Banchero. Great. But roster still makes no funcional sense and is still poised to lose 50 games in next season, even if everybody is healthy. So we are still 2 years away from being 2 years away from anything.

Did you have a Mr. #5 in mind? That Jaden Ivey went 5 speaks miles here. As does this #5:

I didn't really have anybody in mind, i pointed out how much of a dumb luck ( or unlucky ) lottery can be.
There isn't any actual strategy involved between Zion and some random Jarret Culver.


As for Suggs and 2021 class in general,that draft order was messed up big time.

[drsd]

As for Suggs and 2021 class in general,that draft order was messed up big time.

Hard to really fault the way the top of the draft went. Maybe in a redraft Orlando selected F-Wagner 5, but then Suggs gets selected at 8. (I think Suggs still has more upside than Davion Mitchell who went 9).


But I question the professionalism when these three:
10 Ziaire Williams
11 James Bouknight
12 Joshua Primo


Go before these three:
14 Moses Moody
15 Corey Kispert
16 Alperen Şengün


In what universe are Williams, Bouknight, Primo better prospects than Moody, Kispert, and Şengün. I mean that both before the actual draft and in a re-draft.


How does Luka Garza go 52? He is a proven scorer and has NBA skills suggesting a decade-long NBA career as a backup big.

....


Are NBA scouts really that bad?




..

[basketballRob]

As for Suggs and 2021 class in general,that draft order was messed up big time.

Hard to really fault the way the top of the draft went. Maybe in a redraft Orlando selected F-Wagner 5, but then Suggs gets selected at 8. (I think Suggs still has more upside than Davion Mitchell who went 9).


But I question the professionalism when these three:
10 Ziaire Williams
11 James Bouknight
12 Joshua Primo


Go before these three:
14 Moses Moody
15 Corey Kispert
16 Alperen Şengün


In what universe are Williams, Bouknight, Primo better prospects than Moody, Kispert, and Şengün. I mean that both before the actual draft and in a re-draft.


How does Luka Garza go 52? He is a proven scorer and has NBA skills suggesting a decade-long NBA career as a backup big.

....


Are NBA scouts really that bad?




..

I'd still take Primo and Williams over Sengun and Kispert.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app

[pepe1991]

Imo they drafted Primo that high because of his age.
No wonder certain popular pages have among most popular categories " barley legal"

[Ducklett]

Stay safe everyone that is here in the path of Ian. They are saying it could get bad (2 feet of rain). Pixie the chihuahua and I got everything ready to go. Be careful my friends!

[Knightro]

Magic practice was understandably cancelled today.

Read on Twitter

[JF5]

Fact checking.

Here we go again where I have to step in and make you look bad

1) nba is salary restrcited league, so every time you resign somebody, it takes away potential to sign somebody else

I think I've questioned you and many other posters about this the last 2-3 years about this "Potential of signing someone else".

1. The Magic during the Vucevic era were a mediocre/small market team with their All-Star Center hitting his 30's.
So I'm going to ask this question. What AllStar/Superstar was going to jump ship actually was going to come to Orlando?

I ask this because clearing cap space if you're team like Memphis/Orlando/Milwaukee means nothing unless you have an established Superstar like a Ja Morant or Giannis Antetokounmpo on a winning team/winning culture that can lure those type of star players. The Magic at the time were at best a mediocre team.

2) Fultz and Isaac combine for over $30M a year. That over last 2 years is around 30% of all Magic aveliable cap

AND? How does that affect a team that was purposely tanking and trying to horde young talent as their main objective the last 2 seasons?

3) Isaac was resigned injuried, without any hope to play in his contract year

The Magic just clearly drafted his replacement as a core piece in Paolo Banchero. If JI comes back and stays long terms (Which I don't think that is happening) his role would be the Super 6th Man behind Wendell/Paolo.

If he's not here long term. He'd be a trade piece for a better fitting player/superstar or star caliber player.

4) In times Magic resigned them, Orlando did not have much cap space to work with, their exstension impacted their flexiblity further

I also want you to answer this important question... how does flexibility matter for a Tanking/Bad/Mediocre Small Market team?

5 ) One of main reasons why Orlando was in position where they have to re-re-rebuild is because 1/4th of cap space was dead due their ties with Fultz & Isaac

This is interesting to say because a few things here.

1. The last 3-4 years Free-agency has been pretty much non-existent. Most Star Players over this time have been traded away rather than outright signed because those teams trading away the star players wanted value back.

This is the reason why teams like Oklahoma/Magic are hording draft picks/young talent rather than clearing Cap Space.

2. Star players recently have had wish list they make public for teams they wish to be traded too. I've never seen a Star Player in recent history say they wanted to go to Orlando, lmao. ... They've all opted to go to bigger market teams or teams that were much more talented.

I don't give a damn what players make, but there isn't much difference between some poisen Kemba Walker $35M 2021-22 contract and Isaac and Fultz playing 18 games combined, in same period of time, owning $35M combined.

Asset is only asset if somebody is willing to give you something in return.
Fultz in particular isn't very valuable basketball player in nba. Aside from being average/below average defender, well below average shooter , scorer with subpar efficiency his aveliablility hardly makes him any better than guys like Dennis Schroder, who plays on $2,6M a year contract. For some backup PG you would probably rather have Cam Payne on $6M thatn Fultz on $16M contract .

This is the point of reclamation projects. The Magic know they're not going to get good talent through Free-Agency without SEVERELY over playing for it. So they are trying to trade for young guys who they think they can re-develop and try to maximize their talent.

Again, given where the Magic are from how I explained in this point and my previous. It's just ridiculous to complain about it.

Whole angle of "things worked out great, they are broken but we win lottery" is laughable take. You might as well had John Wall in that period and "achive" same resulsts.

They have a whole new core centered around a new set of young guys. This isn't like 2-3 years ago where the Magic's core was Centered around guys in their mid to late 20s who had clearly maxed out their potential.

Ironically you mention John Wall (who the Rockets essentially benched in favor of going with the youth movement). That's what the Magic themselves are clearly aiming towards with their recent transactions/draft moves.

So what execlly having two broken players brings you but needed salary floor? And what's the difference between paying dead cap to some Kevin Love or those two? Notion they are "young"? Well Kevin Love actually suits up to play from time to time, unlike them.

It's pointless arguing this because you need to fast forward 2-3 years into the future to see if what they did with Fultz/Issac is successful.

Also winning lottery is great, but is complete luck and it takes no strategy nor planning to achive. Magic could just as easly drafted 5th and everybody would be crying whole summer. Magic got lucky, drafted Banchero. Great. But roster still makes no funcional sense and is still poised to lose 50 games in next season, even if everybody is healthy. So we are still 2 years away from being 2 years away from anything.

What happened has happened. We got Banchero. Everyone knows the draft is about luck. But how the team is able to structure and develop Banchero and the guys around him is key. This is something that honestly can't be argued about until 2-3 years either.

But right now, coming out of tanking. They've got ALOT of good young talent. We'll see how it goes.

[Skybox]

Magic practice was understandably cancelled today.

Read on Twitter

Obvious tank move

[pepe1991]

Fact checking.

Here we go again where I have to step in and make you look bad

1) nba is salary restrcited league, so every time you resign somebody, it takes away potential to sign somebody else

I think I've questioned you and many other posters about this the last 2-3 years about this "Potential of signing someone else".

1. The Magic during the Vucevic era were a mediocre/small market team with their All-Star Center hitting his 30's.
So I'm going to ask this question. What AllStar/Superstar was going to jump ship actually was going to come to Orlando?

I ask this because clearing cap space if you're team like Memphis/Orlando/Milwaukee means nothing unless you have an established Superstar like a Ja Morant or Giannis Antetokounmpo on a winning team/winning culture that can lure those type of star players. The Magic at the time were at best a mediocre team.

2) Fultz and Isaac combine for over $30M a year. That over last 2 years is around 30% of all Magic aveliable cap

AND? How does that affect a team that was purposely tanking and trying to horde young talent as their main objective the last 2 seasons?

3) Isaac was resigned injuried, without any hope to play in his contract year

The Magic just clearly drafted his replacement as a core piece in Paolo Banchero. If JI comes back and stays long terms (Which I don't think that is happening) his role would be the Super 6th Man behind Wendell/Paolo.

If he's not here long term. He'd be a trade piece for a better fitting player/superstar or star caliber player.

4) In times Magic resigned them, Orlando did not have much cap space to work with, their exstension impacted their flexiblity further

I also want you to answer this important question... how does flexibility matter for a Tanking/Bad/Mediocre Small Market team?

5 ) One of main reasons why Orlando was in position where they have to re-re-rebuild is because 1/4th of cap space was dead due their ties with Fultz & Isaac

This is interesting to say because a few things here.

1. The last 3-4 years Free-agency has been pretty much non-existent. Most Star Players over this time have been traded away rather than outright signed because those teams trading away the star players wanted value back.

This is the reason why teams like Oklahoma/Magic are hording draft picks/young talent rather than clearing Cap Space.

2. Star players recently have had wish list they make public for teams they wish to be traded too. I've never seen a Star Player in recent history say they wanted to go to Orlando, lmao. ... They've all opted to go to bigger market teams or teams that were much more talented.

I don't give a damn what players make, but there isn't much difference between some poisen Kemba Walker $35M 2021-22 contract and Isaac and Fultz playing 18 games combined, in same period of time, owning $35M combined.

Asset is only asset if somebody is willing to give you something in return.
Fultz in particular isn't very valuable basketball player in nba. Aside from being average/below average defender, well below average shooter , scorer with subpar efficiency his aveliablility hardly makes him any better than guys like Dennis Schroder, who plays on $2,6M a year contract. For some backup PG you would probably rather have Cam Payne on $6M thatn Fultz on $16M contract .

This is the point of reclamation projects. The Magic know they're not going to get good talent through Free-Agency without SEVERELY over playing for it. So they are trying to trade for young guys who they think they can re-develop and try to maximize their talent.

Again, given where the Magic are from how I explained in this point and my previous. It's just ridiculous to complain about it.

Whole angle of "things worked out great, they are broken but we win lottery" is laughable take. You might as well had John Wall in that period and "achive" same resulsts.

They have a whole new core centered around a new set of young guys. This isn't like 2-3 years ago where the Magic's core was Centered around guys in their mid to late 20s who had clearly maxed out their potential.

Ironically you mention John Wall (who the Rockets essentially benched in favor of going with the youth movement). That's what the Magic themselves are clearly aiming towards with their recent transactions/draft moves.

So what execlly having two broken players brings you but needed salary floor? And what's the difference between paying dead cap to some Kevin Love or those two? Notion they are "young"? Well Kevin Love actually suits up to play from time to time, unlike them.

It's pointless arguing this because you need to fast forward 2-3 years into the future to see if what they did with Fultz/Issac is successful.

Also winning lottery is great, but is complete luck and it takes no strategy nor planning to achive. Magic could just as easly drafted 5th and everybody would be crying whole summer. Magic got lucky, drafted Banchero. Great. But roster still makes no funcional sense and is still poised to lose 50 games in next season, even if everybody is healthy. So we are still 2 years away from being 2 years away from anything.

What happened has happened. We got Banchero. Everyone knows the draft is about luck. But how the team is able to structure and develop Banchero and the guys around him is key. This is something that honestly can't be argued about until 2-3 years either.

But right now, coming out of tanking. They've got ALOT of good young talent. We'll see how it goes.

1)

I ask this because clearing cap space if you're team like Memphis/Orlando/Milwaukee means nothing unless you have an established Superstar like a Ja Morant or Giannis Antetokounmpo on a winning team/winning culture that can lure those type of star players. The Magic at the time were at best a mediocre team.

What does "winning culture" even means? Majority of teams establishes " winning culture " once they have enough talent to actually- win. In general nba most talented teams tend to win whole thing in like 85% cases. Probably more. That's why teams who have 2 of top 10 players tend to always be title favorites and win whole thing more often than not. ( Warriors with Curry & Durant, Heat with Lebron & Wade, Jordan with Pippen & Jordan, Lakers with Shaq and Kobe...)

Cases against "culture".
Lakers weren't winning team when Lebron James joined them. They were actually awful team stuck in rebuild "in right way" that went nowhere.
Cavs for sure weren't winning team when they signed Lebron in free agency in 2016.
Heat were Shaq's handpicked team to be traded in 2004 despite Heat winning 25 games two years prior, and 42 games in season before he joined them. By that point they passed , in their entire history, first round of playoffs 3 or 4 times.
Were Magic good team when Tracy joined them? They had 41-41 record, missed playoffs.
Suns were mediocrity before Nash.

On opposite side, Spurs were definition of "winning culture" for 15 years. Best free agent ever for that franchise is- Lamarcus Aldrige? ouch.

AND? How does that affect a team that was purposely tanking and trying to horde young talent as their main objective the last 2 seasons?

This is hilarious take since your opening stetmant is " have to step in and make you look bad ". You look yourself look bad. Magic resigned Fultz and Isaac were resigned in December of 2020. Team had aspirations to compete , not to tank.

So... yea, you just make yourself look bad

The Magic just clearly drafted his replacement as a core piece in Paolo Banchero. If JI comes back and stays long terms (Which I don't think that is happening) his role would be the Super 6th Man behind Wendell/Paolo.

If he's not here long term. He'd be a trade piece for a better fitting player/superstar or star caliber player.

Trade peace/asset is only asset if somebody is willing to take him. For same resaons why Magic are not flushing unprotected picks for Lonzo Ball, who, on surface is everything this team loves ( 6'7, elite defender, plus shooter, elite passer , not high usage guy ), is same reason why nobody will offer anything substantial for Isaac. Even if you belive that he is good player, there isn't any reason to belive he will play enough games where that would mean anything. Injury prone player out of action for over 2 years .

Fultz is just bad contract. I don't know what's there to even say. Random 10-12 ppg on 50% TS and subpar defense. What's there to sell him onto? Elfrid Payton without hair?

I also want you to answer this important question... how does flexibility matter for a Tanking/Bad/Mediocre Small Market team?

Pepe educates people time- cause and effect sequence :rofl

For start, i didn't adress this earlier because i assumed you had any clue what you are talking about .Very foolish in my behalf i have to admit.

Dates:
Jonathan Isaac torns ACL in October of 2020.
Markell Fultz and Jonathan Isaac resign with Orlando at December 20, 2020.
Markelle Fultz torns ACL Janury 1st, 2021.
Aaron Gordon demands trade in public at March 24th, 2021.
Rebuild starts at end of March of 2021.

So it's not hard to figure Jonathan Isaac was signed AFTER he torn acl. And both him and Fultz were resigned BEFORE Orlando started rebuild.

You got whole cause & effect sequence all wrong, and you keep repeating it and you are proud of having messed up timeline of events.

1. The last 3-4 years Free-agency has been pretty much non-existent. Most Star Players over this time have been traded away rather than outright signed because those teams trading away the star players wanted value back.

3-4 years?
So 2018-2022 , right?
Lebron James, Kevin Durant, Derozan, Kawhi Leonard, Brook Lopez, Julius Randle, Kemba Walker, Kyrie Irving , Jimmy Butler, Al Horford, both Bogdanovic, Lonzo Ball, Kyle Lowry, Jarret Culver, Jalen Brunson...
That's what? 12-13 allstars?
I didn't even count all guys who did sign& trades ( Paul George for example ) , such trade can't be possible without all 3 sides green lighting it.

pepe1991 wrote:
Whole angle of "things worked out great, they are broken but we win lottery" is laughable take. You might as well had John Wall in that period and "achive" same resulsts.


They have a whole new core centered around a new set of young guys. This isn't like 2-3 years ago where the Magic's core was Centered around guys in their mid to late 20s who had clearly maxed out their potential.

Ironically you mention John Wall (who the Rockets essentially benched in favor of going with the youth movement). That's what the Magic themselves are clearly aiming towards with their recent transactions/draft moves.

I'm sure there is some point here you tried to make, it just missed you

pepe1991 wrote:
So what execlly having two broken players brings you but needed salary floor? And what's the difference between paying dead cap to some Kevin Love or those two? Notion they are "young"? Well Kevin Love actually suits up to play from time to time, unlike them.


It's pointless arguing this because you need to fast forward 2-3 years into the future to see if what they did with Fultz/Issac is successful.

Jonathan Isaac. Joined Orlando Magic in 2017. Played 136 games.
Markelle Fultz. Joined Orlando Magic in February of 2019. Played. 98 games.

Yea , there is more than enough evidence to now where it's headed with that trackrecord without needing 2 more additional years of them not being aveliable to know where it's headed. LIke i didn't need year 4 of Payton , Hezonja nor Bamba to know where their career is headed. You might need. I don't.


Most hilarious think here is that there is living person, who isn't hired by team's awful PR team that actually tries to defend notion that players signed in 2020, who combined for 26 games in 2 full seasons- aren't awful contracts for team who plays in league that is salary restrcited, and their existence in books alone prevents team from improving and adding more players that actually -can play basketball on regular bases.
This is trully a twilight zone. What's next? You will argue that player having ACL tear is good thing because it helps them improve his shooting? Holy Jesus.

[Bergmaniac]

The thing about Fultz's contract is that our management gave an injury prone player player a contract which is way above what his performances at the time merited even if he was known for his durability and never missed games. His numbers and performance in 2019/20 merited a 6-7 mln. per year at most, and even that is a stretch. So for the contract to be a good deal he had to both stay reasonably healthy and improve massively. None of this has happened so far, which is not exactly a surprise.

[basketballRob]

Fact checking.

Here we go again where I have to step in and make you look bad

1) nba is salary restrcited league, so every time you resign somebody, it takes away potential to sign somebody else

I think I've questioned you and many other posters about this the last 2-3 years about this "Potential of signing someone else".

1. The Magic during the Vucevic era were a mediocre/small market team with their All-Star Center hitting his 30's.
So I'm going to ask this question. What AllStar/Superstar was going to jump ship actually was going to come to Orlando?

I ask this because clearing cap space if you're team like Memphis/Orlando/Milwaukee means nothing unless you have an established Superstar like a Ja Morant or Giannis Antetokounmpo on a winning team/winning culture that can lure those type of star players. The Magic at the time were at best a mediocre team.

2) Fultz and Isaac combine for over $30M a year. That over last 2 years is around 30% of all Magic aveliable cap

AND? How does that affect a team that was purposely tanking and trying to horde young talent as their main objective the last 2 seasons?

3) Isaac was resigned injuried, without any hope to play in his contract year

The Magic just clearly drafted his replacement as a core piece in Paolo Banchero. If JI comes back and stays long terms (Which I don't think that is happening) his role would be the Super 6th Man behind Wendell/Paolo.

If he's not here long term. He'd be a trade piece for a better fitting player/superstar or star caliber player.

4) In times Magic resigned them, Orlando did not have much cap space to work with, their exstension impacted their flexiblity further

I also want you to answer this important question... how does flexibility matter for a Tanking/Bad/Mediocre Small Market team?

5 ) One of main reasons why Orlando was in position where they have to re-re-rebuild is because 1/4th of cap space was dead due their ties with Fultz & Isaac

This is interesting to say because a few things here.

1. The last 3-4 years Free-agency has been pretty much non-existent. Most Star Players over this time have been traded away rather than outright signed because those teams trading away the star players wanted value back.

This is the reason why teams like Oklahoma/Magic are hording draft picks/young talent rather than clearing Cap Space.

2. Star players recently have had wish list they make public for teams they wish to be traded too. I've never seen a Star Player in recent history say they wanted to go to Orlando, lmao. ... They've all opted to go to bigger market teams or teams that were much more talented.

I don't give a damn what players make, but there isn't much difference between some poisen Kemba Walker $35M 2021-22 contract and Isaac and Fultz playing 18 games combined, in same period of time, owning $35M combined.

Asset is only asset if somebody is willing to give you something in return.
Fultz in particular isn't very valuable basketball player in nba. Aside from being average/below average defender, well below average shooter , scorer with subpar efficiency his aveliablility hardly makes him any better than guys like Dennis Schroder, who plays on $2,6M a year contract. For some backup PG you would probably rather have Cam Payne on $6M thatn Fultz on $16M contract .

This is the point of reclamation projects. The Magic know they're not going to get good talent through Free-Agency without SEVERELY over playing for it. So they are trying to trade for young guys who they think they can re-develop and try to maximize their talent.

Again, given where the Magic are from how I explained in this point and my previous. It's just ridiculous to complain about it.

Whole angle of "things worked out great, they are broken but we win lottery" is laughable take. You might as well had John Wall in that period and "achive" same resulsts.

They have a whole new core centered around a new set of young guys. This isn't like 2-3 years ago where the Magic's core was Centered around guys in their mid to late 20s who had clearly maxed out their potential.

Ironically you mention John Wall (who the Rockets essentially benched in favor of going with the youth movement). That's what the Magic themselves are clearly aiming towards with their recent transactions/draft moves.

So what execlly having two broken players brings you but needed salary floor? And what's the difference between paying dead cap to some Kevin Love or those two? Notion they are "young"? Well Kevin Love actually suits up to play from time to time, unlike them.

It's pointless arguing this because you need to fast forward 2-3 years into the future to see if what they did with Fultz/Issac is successful.

Also winning lottery is great, but is complete luck and it takes no strategy nor planning to achive. Magic could just as easly drafted 5th and everybody would be crying whole summer. Magic got lucky, drafted Banchero. Great. But roster still makes no funcional sense and is still poised to lose 50 games in next season, even if everybody is healthy. So we are still 2 years away from being 2 years away from anything.

What happened has happened. We got Banchero. Everyone knows the draft is about luck. But how the team is able to structure and develop Banchero and the guys around him is key. This is something that honestly can't be argued about until 2-3 years either.

But right now, coming out of tanking. They've got ALOT of good young talent. We'll see how it goes.

1)

I ask this because clearing cap space if you're team like Memphis/Orlando/Milwaukee means nothing unless you have an established Superstar like a Ja Morant or Giannis Antetokounmpo on a winning team/winning culture that can lure those type of star players. The Magic at the time were at best a mediocre team.

What does "winning culture" even means? Majority of teams establishes " winning culture " once they have enough talent to actually- win. In general nba most talented teams tend to win whole thing in like 85% cases. Probably more. That's why teams who have 2 of top 10 players tend to always be title favorites and win whole thing more often than not. ( Warriors with Curry & Durant, Heat with Lebron & Wade, Jordan with Pippen & Jordan, Lakers with Shaq and Kobe...)

Cases against "culture".
Lakers weren't winning team when Lebron James joined them. They were actually awful team stuck in rebuild "in right way" that went nowhere.
Cavs for sure weren't winning team when they signed Lebron in free agency in 2016.
Heat were Shaq's handpicked team to be traded in 2004 despite Heat winning 25 games two years prior, and 42 games in season before he joined them. By that point they passed , in their entire history, first round of playoffs 3 or 4 times.
Were Magic good team when Tracy joined them? They had 41-41 record, missed playoffs.
Suns were mediocrity before Nash.

On opposite side, Spurs were definition of "winning culture" for 15 years. Best free agent ever for that franchise is- Lamarcus Aldrige? ouch.

AND? How does that affect a team that was purposely tanking and trying to horde young talent as their main objective the last 2 seasons?

This is hilarious take since your opening stetmant is " have to step in and make you look bad ". You look yourself look bad. Magic resigned Fultz and Isaac were resigned in December of 2020. Team had aspirations to compete , not to tank.

So... yea, you just make yourself look bad

The Magic just clearly drafted his replacement as a core piece in Paolo Banchero. If JI comes back and stays long terms (Which I don't think that is happening) his role would be the Super 6th Man behind Wendell/Paolo.

If he's not here long term. He'd be a trade piece for a better fitting player/superstar or star caliber player.

Trade peace/asset is only asset if somebody is willing to take him. For same resaons why Magic are not flushing unprotected picks for Lonzo Ball, who, on surface is everything this team loves ( 6'7, elite defender, plus shooter, elite passer , not high usage guy ), is same reason why nobody will offer anything substantial for Isaac. Even if you belive that he is good player, there isn't any reason to belive he will play enough games where that would mean anything. Injury prone player out of action for over 2 years .

Fultz is just bad contract. I don't know what's there to even say. Random 10-12 ppg on 50% TS and subpar defense. What's there to sell him onto? Elfrid Payton without hair?

I also want you to answer this important question... how does flexibility matter for a Tanking/Bad/Mediocre Small Market team?

Pepe educates people time- cause and effect sequence :rofl

For start, i didn't adress this earlier because i assumed you had any clue what you are talking about .Very foolish in my behalf i have to admit.

Dates:
Jonathan Isaac torns ACL in October of 2020.
Markell Fultz and Jonathan Isaac resign with Orlando at December 20, 2020.
Markelle Fultz torns ACL Janury 1st, 2021.
Aaron Gordon demands trade in public at March 24th, 2021.
Rebuild starts at end of March of 2021.

So it's not hard to figure Jonathan Isaac was signed AFTER he torn acl. And both him and Fultz were resigned BEFORE Orlando started rebuild.

You got whole cause & effect sequence all wrong, and you keep repeating it and you are proud of having messed up timeline of events.

1. The last 3-4 years Free-agency has been pretty much non-existent. Most Star Players over this time have been traded away rather than outright signed because those teams trading away the star players wanted value back.

3-4 years?
So 2018-2022 , right?
Lebron James, Kevin Durant, Derozan, Kawhi Leonard, Brook Lopez, Julius Randle, Kemba Walker, Kyrie Irving , Jimmy Butler, Al Horford, both Bogdanovic, Lonzo Ball, Kyle Lowry, Jarret Culver, Jalen Brunson...
That's what? 12-13 allstars?
I didn't even count all guys who did sign& trades ( Paul George for example ) , such trade can't be possible without all 3 sides green lighting it.

pepe1991 wrote:
Whole angle of "things worked out great, they are broken but we win lottery" is laughable take. You might as well had John Wall in that period and "achive" same resulsts.


They have a whole new core centered around a new set of young guys. This isn't like 2-3 years ago where the Magic's core was Centered around guys in their mid to late 20s who had clearly maxed out their potential.

Ironically you mention John Wall (who the Rockets essentially benched in favor of going with the youth movement). That's what the Magic themselves are clearly aiming towards with their recent transactions/draft moves.

I'm sure there is some point here you tried to make, it just missed you

pepe1991 wrote:
So what execlly having two broken players brings you but needed salary floor? And what's the difference between paying dead cap to some Kevin Love or those two? Notion they are "young"? Well Kevin Love actually suits up to play from time to time, unlike them.


It's pointless arguing this because you need to fast forward 2-3 years into the future to see if what they did with Fultz/Issac is successful.

Jonathan Isaac. Joined Orlando Magic in 2017. Played 136 games.
Markelle Fultz. Joined Orlando Magic in February of 2019. Played. 98 games.

Yea , there is more than enough evidence to now where it's headed with that trackrecord without needing 2 more additional years of them not being aveliable to know where it's headed. LIke i didn't need year 4 of Payton , Hezonja nor Bamba to know where their career is headed. You might need. I don't.


Most hilarious think here is that there is living person, who isn't hired by team's awful PR team that actually tries to defend notion that players signed in 2020, who combined for 26 games in 2 full seasons- aren't awful contracts for team who plays in league that is salary restrcited, and their existence in books alone prevents team from improving and adding more players that actually -can play basketball on regular bases.
This is trully a twilight zone. What's next? You will argue that player having ACL tear is good thing because it helps them improve his shooting? Holy Jesus.

You're assuming that Isaac and Fultz have no value.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app

[JF5]

1)

I ask this because clearing cap space if you're team like Memphis/Orlando/Milwaukee means nothing unless you have an established Superstar like a Ja Morant or Giannis Antetokounmpo on a winning team/winning culture that can lure those type of star players. The Magic at the time were at best a mediocre team.

What does "winning culture" even means? Majority of teams establishes " winning culture " once they have enough talent to actually- win. In general nba most talented teams tend to win whole thing in like 85% cases. Probably more. That's why teams who have 2 of top 10 players tend to always be title favorites and win whole thing more often than not. ( Warriors with Curry & Durant, Heat with Lebron & Wade, Jordan with Pippen & Jordan, Lakers with Shaq and Kobe...)

Cases against "culture".
Lakers weren't winning team when Lebron James joined them. They were actually awful team stuck in rebuild "in right way" that went nowhere.
Cavs for sure weren't winning team when they signed Lebron in free agency in 2016.
Heat were Shaq's handpicked team to be traded in 2004 despite Heat winning 25 games two years prior, and 42 games in season before he joined them. By that point they passed , in their entire history, first round of playoffs 3 or 4 times.
Were Magic good team when Tracy joined them? They had 41-41 record, missed playoffs.
Suns were mediocrity before Nash.

On opposite side, Spurs were definition of "winning culture" for 15 years. Best free agent ever for that franchise is- Lamarcus Aldrige? ouch.

This whole thing is pretty much useless to the conversation and semantics.

The whole point was about Star Players in RECENT NBA history wanting to be traded to teams who on a trajectory to compete are already competing.

I don't know why you even wrote most of this.

Cavs for sure weren't winning team when they signed Lebron in free agency in 2016.

I'll entertain this (Though you'll think I'm nitpicking whatever weird point about a point I wasn't even related to the overall argument.

This was actually back in 2014 and there were multiple aspects at play for the Cavs.

1. Kyrie Irving (albeit young) was on the team and was pretty much an All-Star by Lebron's arrival.

2. The Cavs had a Treasure Chest of Assets which they picked up in previous drafts (Wiggins/Waiters/Bennett/Picks). Which they could flip for another star which they did in Kevin Love and other complimentary players in Iman Shumpert and J.R. Smith. LeBron (or LeGM) saw this and essentially orchestrated a lot of this transactions.

3. This was LeBron's home town/state. Outside of the Cavs having a crap ton of assets to work with. He had a history with the State/City/Team. So of course him coming back was always a possibility given his connection to that location.

This is hilarious take since your opening stetmant is " have to step in and make you look bad ". You look yourself look bad. Magic resigned Fultz and Isaac were resigned in December of 2020. Team had aspirations to compete , not to tank.

So... yea, you just make yourself look bad

This goes back to the fact that the Magic couldn't sign a substantial talent that actually wanted to play in Orlando during this time. (Which again you consistently refuse to answer my question of which Star Player they could've picked up that actually wanted to be here).

Also, my original point is that CURRENTLY people are upset that the team is paying them the money when it doesn't essentially doesn't hurt the team because they're reclamation projects on a REBUILDING team.

Trade peace/asset is only asset if somebody is willing to take him. For same resaons why Magic are not flushing unprotected picks for Lonzo Ball, who, on surface is everything this team loves ( 6'7, elite defender, plus shooter, elite passer , not high usage guy ), is same reason why nobody will offer anything substantial for Isaac. Even if you belive that he is good player, there isn't any reason to belive he will play enough games where that would mean anything. Injury prone player out of action for over 2 years .

Fultz is just bad contract. I don't know what's there to even say. Random 10-12 ppg on 50% TS and subpar defense. What's there to sell him onto? Elfrid Payton without hair?

Like I said this has to play out the next 2-3 years. I'm not an apparent fortune teller like you are to see if any of these reclamation projects work out.

Pepe educates people time- cause and effect sequence :rofl

For start, i didn't adress this earlier because i assumed you had any clue what you are talking about .Very foolish in my behalf i have to admit.

Dates:
Jonathan Isaac torns ACL in October of 2020.
Markell Fultz and Jonathan Isaac resign with Orlando at December 20, 2020.
Markelle Fultz torns ACL Janury 1st, 2021.
Aaron Gordon demands trade in public at March 24th, 2021.
Rebuild starts at end of March of 2021.

So it's not hard to figure Jonathan Isaac was signed AFTER he torn acl. And both him and Fultz were resigned BEFORE Orlando started rebuild.

You got whole cause & effect sequence all wrong, and you keep repeating it and you are proud of having messed up timeline of events.

Again, here is where I'm going with this and I've asked this already. WHO EXACTLY WHO THE MAGIC WERE GOING TO SIGN THAT ACTUALLY WOULD'VE MADE A DIFFERENCE AND WANTED TO PLAY HERE AT THAT TIME?!?!

Can you actually answer that question?

1. The last 3-4 years Free-agency has been pretty much non-existent. Most Star Players over this time have been traded away rather than outright signed because those teams trading away the star players wanted value back.

3-4 years?
So 2018-2022 , right?
Lebron James, Kevin Durant, Derozan, Kawhi Leonard, Brook Lopez, Julius Randle, Kemba Walker, Kyrie Irving , Jimmy Butler, Al Horford, both Bogdanovic, Lonzo Ball, Kyle Lowry, Jarret Culver, Jalen Brunson...
That's what? 12-13 allstars?

This is HIGHLY disingenuous and borderline criminal

Julius Randle, Al Horford, Kyle Lowry, Brook Lopez and especially Jalen Brunson, Brogdan Bogdanovic, and Jarret Culver (Probably Trolling) were either past their primes as all-stars, or were never really stars in the last 3-4 years

I could give you Kemba Walker.

But once Kemba Walker signed his contract with Boston and started playing he was no longer on an All-Star Level, which you even mention yourself about him having a bloated contract.

Also, Julius Randle when he was signed with the Knicks. There wasn't expectations from the Organization for him to be an All-Star Caliber player. That man is clearly not an All-Star player in the present tense either.

But to Give you the Benefit of the doubt for Kemba at least given the contract he signed. So the list of

1. LeBron James
2. Kevin Durant (Signed and Traded and went to the destination he wanted thought - Warriors Received D'Angelo Russell)
3. Kawhi Leonard
4. Kemba Walker
5. Jimmy Butler
6. Demar Derozan

Compared to

1. Anthony Davis
2. Paul George
3. Jimmy Butler (Traded to the 76ers)
4. James Harden (Traded to the Nets)
5. Russell Westbrook (Traded to the Rockets)
6. Chris Paul
7. Kawhi Leonard (Traded to Toronto)
8. Donovan Mitchell
9. Rudy Gobert
10. Dajonte Murray
11. Nikola Vucevic
12. C.J. McCollum (Though Never Selected as an All-Star But All-Star Quality)
13. Demar Derozan (Traded to the Spurs)
14. Russell Westbrook (Traded to the Lakers)
15. James Harden (Traded to the Sixers)
16. Ben Simmons
17. John Wall
18. Russell Westbrook (Traded to the Wizards)
19. D'Angelo Russell (Traded to the Warriors)
20. Domatas Sabonis

That's from what I was able to research. That's about 76.9 Percent. Essentially 77 percent of all All-Stars all being moved during the last 3-4 years were TRADED.

I didn't even count all guys who did sign& trades ( Paul George for example ) , such trade can't be possible without all 3 sides green lighting it.

Paul George was never signed-then-traded. He signed an extension with Oklahoma City saying he'd be there for the long haul with Russ during the 2018 offseason. When they lost that series against the Blazers in 2019 the Thunder decided to blow it up THEN traded him to the Clippers.

Whole angle of "things worked out great, they are broken but we win lottery" is laughable take. You might as well had John Wall in that period and "achive" same resulsts.

It's all going to end in the same results because clearly you know know the future right? If you know the future the he hell do you even watch sports. You clearly know what's going to happen next right?

So what execlly having two broken players brings you but needed salary floor? And what's the difference between paying dead cap to some Kevin Love or those two? Notion they are "young"? Well Kevin Love actually suits up to play from time to time, unlike them.

Yea , there is more than enough evidence to now where it's headed with that trackrecord without needing 2 more additional years of them not being aveliable to know where it's headed. LIke i didn't need year 4 of Payton , Hezonja nor Bamba to know where their career is headed. You might need. I don't.

I've mentioned this before. There have been other players Like Antonio McDyess/Derrick Rose/Bernard King/Joel Embiid/Andrew Bogut who had multiple years of missing tons of games and were able to overcome them to have careers.

To act like its impossible for Fultz/Issac to not carve out similar paths is very near-sighted.

Most hilarious think here is that there is living person, who isn't hired by team's awful PR team that actually tries to defend notion that players signed in 2020, who combined for 26 games in 2 full seasons- aren't awful contracts for team who plays in league that is salary restrcited, and their existence in books alone prevents team from improving and adding more players that actually -can play basketball on regular bases.
This is trully a twilight zone. What's next? You will argue that player having ACL tear is good thing because it helps them improve his shooting? Holy Jesus.

That's your opinion... But again if you can actually answer the relevant questions then I can actually take your post serious.

Like

1. Who of STAR QUALITY the could've have traded/gotten/cleared the books for during the Vucevic Era that actually wanted to be here?

2. What's the the real problem of taking part of the Relamation projects of Fultz/Issac when the team CURRENTLY is not going anywhere?

If you can actually answer these questions rather than side stepping them this conversation would be able to go farther than you just questioning the organization and being angry rather than providing any sort of tangible solution.

I'm waiting for those answers, Pepe.