The Decision on Fultz?

[Medford]

24. Markelle Fultz - $16.5m

25. Kevin Porter Jr - 5yr / $3m
26. Monte Morris - 2yr / $9m
27. Ayo Dosumu - 1yr/ $1.5m
28. Dennis Schroder - 1yr / $1.9m
29. Tre Jones - 1yr / $1.7m
30. Killian Hayes - 3yr / $5.5m

Which one of these things is not like the others?

It's kind of deceiving to just show the guys below...

15. Jrue Holiday - 3yr / 33.7m
16. Jamal Murray - 3y / 31.7m
17. Fred VanVleet - 2y / 21.3m
18. CJ McCollum - 4y / 33.3m

19. Marcus Smart - 4y / 17.2m
20. Jordan Clarkson - 2y / 13.3m
21. Kyle Lowry - 2y / 28.3m
22. D'Angelo Russell - 1y / 31.4m
23. Reggie Jackson - 1yr / $ 11.2m

24. Markelle Fultz - $16.5m

Which one is totally like the others?
Just saying... you can almost adjust any statline to your needs.


I really like the way Fultz plays, especially on the devensive end. Without Bol or Cole in the starting lineup there are no glaring weaknesses, which seems to be key for their recent success.
I'm all in for keeping him in the starter role. At least until the end of the season.

[JoshuaPotter]

Read on Twitter

0-3 from 3 in the last 5 games as a starting point guard.

Thats also a cool statistic.

Good to see his assist numbers are breaking 5 though.

61% (including the 0-3 from 3)
why are you bashing someone that efficient?
He gets easy baskets.
People tried to knock DeRozen about this too, then he became a MVP candidate last year.

Yes, it would be great if we had a PG who shot 40% from 3, but they don't grow on trees.
Let us be happy with what he does great.
6+ assists on a team that averages less than 25 is very good. Not like he has the highest usage either.
6.4 assists for the season would put him in top 20 for the league.
Nobody was doing it before Fultz came back.
But whatever, if you don't like a player, who cares if he's helping win games.

Oh my goodness. I don't read any of the criticism as personal attacks at all.

- Some of your points you got from 5 games....out of the games he has played so far.
- He is on what we call a hot streak for now, lets see if its him getting better or not
- His numbers reflect definitively he is in the bottom half of the league as a starter at best (and thanks ranking him high and only counting 5 games.....)
- On the whole "We don't need a PG we need a SG for him to be better". The answer from most people critical of Fultz is "yes", "both would be good".
- I am not complaining about winning. Most people aren't. This is like the whole "every time we lose are we still tanking" mentality is still around.

Looks like we are a 500 team so far with our current glut of PG / SG. An improvement likely makes us a lock for playoff contenders for the foreseeable future. Otherwise, there isn't much to improve in the Forward position for potentially the next decade. So why not entertain the fact that our Guard roster is in need of a rework.

[VFX]

24. Markelle Fultz - $16.5m

25. Kevin Porter Jr - 5yr / $3m
26. Monte Morris - 2yr / $9m
27. Ayo Dosumu - 1yr/ $1.5m
28. Dennis Schroder - 1yr / $1.9m
29. Tre Jones - 1yr / $1.7m
30. Killian Hayes - 3yr / $5.5m

Which one of these things is not like the others?

It's kind of deceiving to just show the guys below...

15. Jrue Holiday - 3yr / 33.7m
16. Jamal Murray - 3y / 31.7m
17. Fred VanVleet - 2y / 21.3m
18. CJ McCollum - 4y / 33.3m

19. Marcus Smart - 4y / 17.2m
20. Jordan Clarkson - 2y / 13.3m
21. Kyle Lowry - 2y / 28.3m
22. D'Angelo Russell - 1y / 31.4m
23. Reggie Jackson - 1yr / $ 11.2m

24. Markelle Fultz - $16.5m

Which one is totally like the others?
Just saying... you can almost adjust any statline to your needs.


I really like the way Fultz plays, especially on the devensive end. Without Bol or Cole in the starting lineup there are no glaring weaknesses, which seems to be key for their recent success.
I'm all in for keeping him in the starter role. At least until the end of the season.

How so?

Were we comparing Fultz numbers to the absolute best point guards in the league? No.

I’m comparing Fultz amongst his peers as the fringe starting point guards.

He’s not half as valuable as Marcus Smart, who makes only slightly more. Boston would also never make that trade 1:1 if you happen to disagree.

[JoshuaPotter]

He’s not half as valuable as Marcus Smart, who makes only slightly more. Boston would also never make that trade 1:1 if you happen to disagree.

For the love of all that is pure and holy, someone please digest that we all agreed with the heart (spirit) of the numbered tier list of PG above and that Smart is currently the 19th "best" PG in the league..........

And there is no scenario where Fultz = Smart trades happen.

[Medford]

24. Markelle Fultz - $16.5m

...
How so?

Were we comparing Fultz numbers to the absolute best point guards in the league? No.

I’m comparing Fultz amongst his peers as the fringe starting point guards.

He’s not half as valuable as Marcus Smart, who makes only slightly more. Boston would also never make that trade 1:1 if you happen to disagree.

I assumed you tried to point out Fultz is to costly for his output... and I wouldn't disagree. Though, what I want to show is, that it's almost impossible to find a better point guard for the same salary.

As Boston surely won't make a 1:1 trade for Marcus Smart, Orlando won't swap for KPJ just because his contract is intriguing. I hope at least

[zaymon]

I assumed you tried to point out Fultz is to costly for his output... and I wouldn't disagree. Though, what I want to show is, that it's almost impossible to find a better point guard for the same salary.

As Boston surely won't make a 1:1 trade for Marcus Smart, Orlando won't swap for KPJ just because his contract is intriguing. I hope at least

We dont need better point guard. We need someone who is not undersized and who can shoot. We look a lot better with Gary Harris for exemple. There is little sense to play Fultz when ball is in Franz and Paolo hands most of the time in fourth quarter.
I even like Kevon Harris more next two our two stars. Fultz is hustling like crazy i will give him that, but thats not enough he is still a liability with his skill set.

[AaronB]

I assumed you tried to point out Fultz is to costly for his output... and I wouldn't disagree. Though, what I want to show is, that it's almost impossible to find a better point guard for the same salary.

As Boston surely won't make a 1:1 trade for Marcus Smart, Orlando won't swap for KPJ just because his contract is intriguing. I hope at least

That is great, because a health Fultz is a better PG than Smart, who last year was a great defensive player but this year only average, might be the least instinctive PH I have seen in a long time.

The only I have with Fultz is health.

[VFX]

I assumed you tried to point out Fultz is to costly for his output... and I wouldn't disagree. Though, what I want to show is, that it's almost impossible to find a better point guard for the same salary.

As Boston surely won't make a 1:1 trade for Marcus Smart, Orlando won't swap for KPJ just because his contract is intriguing. I hope at least

That is great, because a health Fultz is a better PG than Smart, who last year was a great defensive player but this year only average, might be the least instinctive PH I have seen in a long time.

The only I have with Fultz is health.

According to who? Magic fans?

Go ask the trade board who they’d rather have Fultz or Smart at 100% health and get laughed off.

[eyriq]

With a clear majority Fultz has locked up the starting spot. Interesting. If this was representative of our front office I'd expect us to:

1. Look hard at Suggs or Cole for the backup job and likely 6th man role.
2. Take BPA in the draft but put extra weight on floor stretching ability.
3. Triple down on finding a starting floor stretcher via a trade or free agency.

There is enough divisiveness on this subject that I'd also expect them to be on the lookout for continued growth. If Fultz stagnates he just isn't good enough long-term. Need to see his contributions reflected clearly in RPM as the dataset gets enough data to stabilize.

Which is to say while we seem to be overwhelmingly in favor of him starting for the foreseeable future a lot of it has continued improvement baked in.

[JBSouthpaw]

0-3 from 3 in the last 5 games as a starting point guard.

Thats also a cool statistic.

Good to see his assist numbers are breaking 5 though.

61% (including the 0-3 from 3)
why are you bashing someone that efficient?
He gets easy baskets.
People tried to knock DeRozen about this too, then he became a MVP candidate last year.

Yes, it would be great if we had a PG who shot 40% from 3, but they don't grow on trees.
Let us be happy with what he does great.
6+ assists on a team that averages less than 25 is very good. Not like he has the highest usage either.
6.4 assists for the season would put him in top 20 for the league.
Nobody was doing it before Fultz came back.
But whatever, if you don't like a player, who cares if he's helping win games.

Oh my goodness. I don't read any of the criticism as personal attacks at all.

- Some of your points you got from 5 games....out of the games he has played so far.
- He is on what we call a hot streak for now, lets see if its him getting better or not
- His numbers reflect definitively he is in the bottom half of the league as a starter at best (and thanks ranking him high and only counting 5 games.....)
- On the whole "We don't need a PG we need a SG for him to be better". The answer from most people critical of Fultz is "yes", "both would be good".
- I am not complaining about winning. Most people aren't. This is like the whole "every time we lose are we still tanking" mentality is still around.

Looks like we are a 500 team so far with our current glut of PG / SG. An improvement likely makes us a lock for playoff contenders for the foreseeable future. Otherwise, there isn't much to improve in the Forward position for potentially the next decade. So why not entertain the fact that our Guard roster is in need of a rework.

Wrong Josh.
I posted a tweet(not mine).
About Fultz having a pretty good run, that's it. It says 5 games in the tweet.
See, 5 games is a trend, trends can turn into new baselines. New baselines can turn future projections. (like how we now expect to win more games)
What I'm replying to, is someone trying to disvalue that run.
Sarcastic comment about him being 0-3 from 3 being "a cool stat too"
about YOUR team's player is just negative garbage.

[VFX]

61% (including the 0-3 from 3)
why are you bashing someone that efficient?
He gets easy baskets.
People tried to knock DeRozen about this too, then he became a MVP candidate last year.

Yes, it would be great if we had a PG who shot 40% from 3, but they don't grow on trees.
Let us be happy with what he does great.
6+ assists on a team that averages less than 25 is very good. Not like he has the highest usage either.
6.4 assists for the season would put him in top 20 for the league.
Nobody was doing it before Fultz came back.
But whatever, if you don't like a player, who cares if he's helping win games.

Oh my goodness. I don't read any of the criticism as personal attacks at all.

- Some of your points you got from 5 games....out of the games he has played so far.
- He is on what we call a hot streak for now, lets see if its him getting better or not
- His numbers reflect definitively he is in the bottom half of the league as a starter at best (and thanks ranking him high and only counting 5 games.....)
- On the whole "We don't need a PG we need a SG for him to be better". The answer from most people critical of Fultz is "yes", "both would be good".
- I am not complaining about winning. Most people aren't. This is like the whole "every time we lose are we still tanking" mentality is still around.

Looks like we are a 500 team so far with our current glut of PG / SG. An improvement likely makes us a lock for playoff contenders for the foreseeable future. Otherwise, there isn't much to improve in the Forward position for potentially the next decade. So why not entertain the fact that our Guard roster is in need of a rework.

Wrong Josh.
I posted a tweet(not mine).
About Fultz having a pretty good run, that's it. It says 5 games in the tweet.
See, 5 games is a trend, trends can turn into new baselines. New baselines can turn future projections. (like how we now expect to win more games)
What I'm replying to, is someone trying to disvalue that run.
Sarcastic comment about him being 0-3 from 3 being "a cool stat too"
about YOUR team's player is just negative garbage.

Here I'll clear it up.

I didn't feel the need to respond to your first reply because I thought it was obvious.

You posted a tweet about how he's having a great 5 game run in terms of fg% and assist numbers. You did this in a hotly contested thread (that I didn't create) asking about whether or not Fultz should be the starter for the foreseeable future. I DID point out his assist numbers look reasonable for once.

I also pointed out he's also only taken 3 shots from 3 in YOUR EXAMPLE of a 5 game spread, and he is 0-3. Thats LAUGHABLE as a starting point guard in the year 2023.

All of a sudden then 5 game sample size doesn't look too good when faced with these numbers, so you go back to posting his season numbers where he's taking exclusively mid-range jumpers, which is probably the only reason he's even starting.

You can't disagree with the numbers so you chose to be upset I pointed them out. Thats fine.

[JoshuaPotter]

Wrong Josh.
I posted a tweet(not mine).
About Fultz having a pretty good run, that's it. It says 5 games in the tweet.
See, 5 games is a trend, trends can turn into new baselines. New baselines can turn future projections. (like how we now expect to win more games)
What I'm replying to, is someone trying to disvalue that run.
Sarcastic comment about him being 0-3 from 3 being "a cool stat too"
about YOUR team's player is just negative garbage.

Basketball is a game of runs. Runs can indicate a trend, they can also indicate when a player is hot. The question is, is the trend sustainable when compared to a players age / upside. Upside can be calculated by injury history, past projections (looking at data), and age.

Fultz is only 24. Used to be 24 was "young" for a good point guard so we would give a lot of grace. Feels like nowadays the trend is 24 is "you are who you are and this is a shooters game".

0 of 3 is a very cool stat. It exclaims the direct negative inverse to the positives he does (dribbling well is a positive) bring to the court. In a very guard heavy scoring NBA we have yet to calculate how his defense impacts the game fully. Right now, it doesn't look any greater then where we have placed him.

Trying to value a player should never be seen as garbage. Fultz by no means is a "garbage" player. He is arguably as close to the agree upon 19th best rung of starters at best to near the end of the list at worst.

Yet suddenly discussing that makes the argument garbage......

As to him "turning a corner" that'd be nice, heaven knows we NEED HIM TOO or we need to FIND SOMEONE ELSE to help us in the coming DECADE.

If you continue to say this is a garbage debate from here. Its on you.

[AaronB]

I assumed you tried to point out Fultz is to costly for his output... and I wouldn't disagree. Though, what I want to show is, that it's almost impossible to find a better point guard for the same salary.

As Boston surely won't make a 1:1 trade for Marcus Smart, Orlando won't swap for KPJ just because his contract is intriguing. I hope at least

That is great, because a health Fultz is a better PG than Smart, who last year was a great defensive player but this year only average, might be the least instinctive PH I have seen in a long time.

The only I have with Fultz is health.

According to who? Magic fans?

Go ask the trade board who they’d rather have Fultz or Smart at 100% health and get laughed off.

I don't give a cr@p about the trade board opinions.

Most of them have never dribbled a basketball or as Sir Charles says "are basically typing from the gramma's basement".

I know what my eyes tell me.

Smart is a terrible PG.

I know that and I know the Celtics know that.

How do I know that the Celts know that?

In the last 2 years the Celts brought in 2 PGs at a very high cost just because Smart has such terrible instincts as a PG.

Oh, and a healthy Fultz is better than both those guys also.

Smart is actually having a career year distributing the basketball.

He is still nowhere near as good of PG as a healthy Fultz.

[VFX]

That is great, because a health Fultz is a better PG than Smart, who last year was a great defensive player but this year only average, might be the least instinctive PH I have seen in a long time.

The only I have with Fultz is health.

According to who? Magic fans?

Go ask the trade board who they’d rather have Fultz or Smart at 100% health and get laughed off.

I don't give a cr@p about the trade board opinions.

Most of them have never dribbled a basketball or as Sir Charles says "are basically typing from the gramma's basement".

I know what my eyes tell me.

Smart is a terrible PG.

I know that and I know the Celtics know that.

How do I know that the Celts know that?

In the last 2 years the Celts brought in 2 PGs at a very high cost just because Smart has such terrible instincts as a PG.

Oh, and a healthy Fultz is better than both those guys also.

Smart is actually having a career year distributing the basketball.

He is still nowhere near as good of PG as a healthy Fultz.

You're right.

3x all defense, 21-22 defensive POY, starting guard for the 2021 Eastern Conference Champions isn't as good as Markelle Fultz.

[AaronB]

LOL, Smart is a great PG, that is why the Celts keep sending out FRP's for more experienced PGs.

July 9, 2022 Re-signed F Sam Hauser and C Luke Kornet. Acquired G Malcolm Brogdon from Indiana in exchange for Fs Malik Fitts, Juwan Morgan and Daniel Theis and Gs Aaron Nesmith and Nik Stauskas and a 2023 first round draft pick.

February 10, 2022 Traded G Josh Richardson and a first-round pick to San Antonio in exchange for G Derrick White. Also sent G Romeo Langford to San Antonio. Acquired F Daniel Theis from Houston.

[Knightro]

LOL, Smart is a great PG, that is why the Celts keep sending out FRP's for more experienced PGs.

July 9, 2022 Re-signed F Sam Hauser and C Luke Kornet. Acquired G Malcolm Brogdon from Indiana in exchange for Fs Malik Fitts, Juwan Morgan and Daniel Theis and Gs Aaron Nesmith and Nik Stauskas and a 2023 first round draft pick.

February 10, 2022 Traded G Josh Richardson and a first-round pick to San Antonio in exchange for G Derrick White. Also sent G Romeo Langford to San Antonio. Acquired F Daniel Theis from Houston.

Ah yes Malcolm Brodgon who has *checks notes* started 0 games in his Celtics career and is playing all of 23 MPG and Derrick White who has played 85% of his minutes this season at SG/SF.

[AaronB]

LOL, Smart is a great PG, that is why the Celts keep sending out FRP's for more experienced PGs.

July 9, 2022 Re-signed F Sam Hauser and C Luke Kornet. Acquired G Malcolm Brogdon from Indiana in exchange for Fs Malik Fitts, Juwan Morgan and Daniel Theis and Gs Aaron Nesmith and Nik Stauskas and a 2023 first round draft pick.

February 10, 2022 Traded G Josh Richardson and a first-round pick to San Antonio in exchange for G Derrick White. Also sent G Romeo Langford to San Antonio. Acquired F Daniel Theis from Houston.

Ah yes Malcolm Brodgon who has *checks notes* started 0 games in his Celtics career and is playing all of 23 MPG and Derrick White who has played 85% of his minutes this season at SG/SF.

Great "Look, a squirrel moment".

[yoyojw17]

According to who? Magic fans?

Go ask the trade board who they’d rather have Fultz or Smart at 100% health and get laughed off.

I don't give a cr@p about the trade board opinions.

Most of them have never dribbled a basketball or as Sir Charles says "are basically typing from the gramma's basement".

I know what my eyes tell me.

Smart is a terrible PG.

I know that and I know the Celtics know that.

How do I know that the Celts know that?

In the last 2 years the Celts brought in 2 PGs at a very high cost just because Smart has such terrible instincts as a PG.

Oh, and a healthy Fultz is better than both those guys also.

Smart is actually having a career year distributing the basketball.

He is still nowhere near as good of PG as a healthy Fultz.

You're right.

3x all defense, 21-22 defensive POY, starting guard for the 2021 Eastern Conference Champions isn't as good as Markelle Fultz.

well... it's not apples and oranges either.... put smart on this team... and a lot might not be the same... for better or for worse. I'm sure that fultz would look better next to an established duo of Brown and tatum.

and comparing him to a fultz that is only 21 games return after missing the beginning of the season with a team searching for their identity... probably isn't quite fair either.

personally... i would take fultz over smart... because i believe that his potential still hasn't come to the surface yet.

[Knightro]

Great "Look, a squirrel moment".

You said the Celtics acquired Brogdon and White because of Smart's shortcomings at PG.

I pointed out that Brogdon is playing the lowest amount of minutes he's played in his career in a pure backup role and White is playing purely SG and all you can do is retort that I'm trying to distract from the topic?

Please.

[Audi]

So since the big gripe on Fultz seems to be his lack of 3pt shooting, how many 3pt attempts per game would it take to sway that opinion? This season he's averaging 1.3 attempts at 32%. To contrast, we have Cole (3.7 attempts at 30%) and Suggs (4.5 attempts at 27%).