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Magic 5-0 When Jameer Is Out [Merged]

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Post#81 » by knappy » Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:59 pm

Hairy Midget wrote:Two threads?


I didn't want my comments to get lost in the other thread since there were so many posts already and I think I was adding a different dimension to the 5 - 0.

I am not sure if you are high on Carlos or not, but I wanted to make sure that people see it all in context. I haven't been on this board too much - I used to post on the Magic board, which I no longer do, but the Carlos love is just too much for me - he just isn't that good in my opinion - not that Jameer is playing well - because he isn't, but in the two tough games that we won when Jameer got a DNP - it wasn't because Carlos lit things up.

I just get tired of the Carlos fanaticisim and continual effort by his fans to get him into the starting role regardless of how he plays. I think Dooling is playing better than Carlos although I think Carlos handles the ball better than Dooling.

I think Jameer is a better player than Carlos, but he hasn't shown up much this season. Carlos is not taking this team anywhere and I would be ok with a different backup - someone taller. Sorry, that I am not a big fan of Carlos - I like him better than Garrity, but he just doesn't do it for me - although I think he is playing better than I have seen him play in a while, but he will need to improve a lot more before I can get excited about what he can bring.
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Post#82 » by bigshawn » Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:59 pm

Solid Snake wrote:Lol Carlos is not a better passer. Lol at Carlos being taller. Barely taller. Don't care what he is listed at there is a photo of them standing next to each other and Carlos has maybe a 5 centimeter advantage in height. That combined with his slower footspeed and lack of strength make him a bigger liability than Jameer. And unless my eyes decieve me, Jameer gets assists at a better rate so you can say Carlos is a better passer too bad there is no proof to back that up. Don't give me the BS about stats either, they only don't matter when they don't support your arguments.


5 centimeters huh, lol. You superman or something. Let me guess you can tell with your X-ray microscopic vision the difference in height. Well superman, like I said before neither is good, but Jameer has never been a setup man before. He wasn't in college and now you think he can learn on the job in the best league in the world, please. Anyone with good vision can see if Carlos wasn't such a hotdog and knucklehead he would be an upgrade over Jameer in passing ability. He just doesn't do it. He is capable though.

Jameer however is not capable of doing it. SEE the difference.
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Post#83 » by Last Guardian » Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:06 am

bigshawn wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



5 centimeters huh, lol. You superman or something. Let me guess you can tell with your X-ray microscopic vision the difference in height. Well superman, like I said before neither is good, but Jameer has never been a setup man before. He wasn't in college and now you think he can learn on the job in the best league in the world, please. Anyone with good vision can see if Carlos wasn't such a hotdog and knucklehead he would be an upgrade over Jameer in passing ability. He just doesn't do it. He is capable though.

Jameer however is not capable of doing it. SEE the difference.


This is hilarious argument. First you call me superman which makes no sense in the context you are using. X-ray vision makes you see through walls not tell the difference in height. lol.

Next you say IF Carlos wasn't such an idiot he would be an upgrade. Lol, what a genius you are. He is capable he just doesn't do it, lmao. Maybe he just isn't capable. Stop lying to yourself. You basically admit his faults and end your argument that he is 'capable'. Brilliant. Jameer isn't capable yet he gets more assists, shoots better % and a far better rebounder despite being "shorter".

So the whole thing is, if Carlos wasn't an idiot he would be an upgrade over Jameer. I hope you realize how stupid an argument that is.
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Post#84 » by bigshawn » Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:28 am

Solid Snake wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



This is hilarious argument. First you call me superman which makes no sense in the context you are using. X-ray vision makes you see through walls not tell the difference in height. lol.

Next you say IF Carlos wasn't such an idiot he would be an upgrade. Lol, what a genius you are. He is capable he just doesn't do it, lmao. Maybe he just isn't capable. Stop lying to yourself. You basically admit his faults and end your argument that he is 'capable'. Brilliant. Jameer isn't capable yet he gets more assists, shoots better % and a far better rebounder despite being "shorter".

So the whole thing is, if Carlos wasn't an idiot he would be an upgrade over Jameer. I hope you realize how stupid an argument that is.



Dude, I've stating many times. They both SUCK.

But, as of right now your boy Jameer isn't playing and we're winning. We need a PG who makes plays for others. Stay with me now, ok.

Jameer has never done that, EVER. Carlos is a chucker and I dislike his game, however he is the best person on our team right now that can make plays for others. I don't care what your BS stats say about Jameer assists, the man is not a PG. He is not a playmaker. He did not win player of the year in college for making others better. He won for scoring a lot of points, not for being a pass first PG.

You act like he is going to wake up one day and suddenly learn how to pass, and make others better thats just ignorance.

The definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over again, but expect a different outcome. If it aint broke don't fix it. That's all I'm saying.

I think its insane to keep going down this road with Nelson when you already know the outcome
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Post#85 » by otownflava21 » Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:30 am

sorry, but some people are just too ignorant. you gotta be BLIND to not see that carlos is by FAR the better passer.

the only only only ONLY thing jameer has on carlos is his jumpshot. which really doesnt matter becuase carlos is shooting very well too (35% 3pt)
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Post#86 » by mhectorgato » Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:34 am

bigshawn wrote:Dude, I've stating many times. They both SUCK.

But, as of right now your boy Jameer isn't playing and we're winning. We need a PG who makes plays for others. Stay with me now, ok.


Did we win much during the start of the season with Jameer starting?

The definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over again, but expect a different outcome.


I must be insane for posting on RealGM then ....


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Post#87 » by karizma87 » Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:46 am

as a perfectly neutral supporter of carlos and nelson i'll say this:

carlos is better when he wants to be, but that isn't saying much...
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Post#88 » by MagicStarwipe » Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:50 am

Carlos may be a better passer than Jameer, however... he is not as willing a passer as Jameer is. He kills ball movement more than Jameer. And finally Jameer is much better at getting the ball to Dwight. Jameer is always finding Dwight for alley-oops. Dwight just gets way more opertunites when Jameer runs the offense.
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Post#89 » by Last Guardian » Fri Jan 25, 2008 1:06 am

otownflava21 wrote:sorry, but some people are just too ignorant. you gotta be BLIND to not see that carlos is by FAR the better passer.

the only only only ONLY thing jameer has on carlos is his jumpshot. which really doesnt matter becuase carlos is shooting very well too (35% 3pt)


You are the only ones blind. Jameer is a better assist guy therefore a better point guard. Carlos is a flashier passer and thats it.
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Post#90 » by cjrwell22 » Fri Jan 25, 2008 1:29 am

jameer is a little disappointing. especially becuz otis already gave him an extension. he's not a very good player right now, hes just decent. but this raises a larger issue, mainly that we still need a better pg, or 2 guard that can create off the dribble for his own offense as well as others, while getting to the line. we need that as much if not more than another PF considering with Battie, a draft pick, and the MLE to get another big.
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Post#91 » by Bensational » Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:02 am

can we all just agree that our team's success has more to do with Turk, Lewis and Evans (not to mention most of the rest of the team) all hitting shots, especially 3's, at an exceptionally high clip??? that's how we won at the start of the season, it's how we're winning now.

there's not enough difference between the guards to make a major impact on our W's and L's, short of how much of a liability they are on the night. and that's negated when every guy on your team can seemingly knock them down at will from deep.
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Post#92 » by Last Guardian » Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:08 am

Bensational wrote:can we all just agree that our team's success has more to do with Turk, Lewis and Evans (not to mention most of the rest of the team) all hitting shots, especially 3's, at an exceptionally high clip??? that's how we won at the start of the season, it's how we're winning now.

there's not enough difference between the guards to make a major impact on our W's and L's, short of how much of a liability they are on the night. and that's negated when every guy on your team can seemingly knock them down at will from deep.


You're probably right about that. I still get tired of the Jameer bashing. As if we wouldn't win a game with Jameer if the team went 18/33 from 3.
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Post#93 » by mhectorgato » Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:11 am

Bensational wrote:can we all just agree that our team's success has more to do with Turk, Lewis and Evans (not to mention most of the rest of the team) all hitting shots, especially 3's, at an exceptionally high clip??? that's how we won at the start of the season, it's how we're winning now.

there's not enough difference between the guards to make a major impact on our W's and L's, short of how much of a liability they are on the night. and that's negated when every guy on your team can seemingly knock them down at will from deep.


I don't think there's been absolute agreement on any subject during my tenure on this site.

But I do agree.
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Post#94 » by Hairy Midget » Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:08 am

Carlos is more skilled than Jameer at the NBA game, the only problem is that Arroyo doesn't always use his skills.

I think that if Arroyo truly wanted to be a really good PG, he could. He has the court vision and dribbling skills. He just hasn't figured it out yet, and he's been in the league long enough that it's time to admit that it'll never happen.
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Post#95 » by knappy » Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:27 am

Hairy Midget wrote:Carlos is more skilled than Jameer at the NBA game, the only problem is that Arroyo doesn't always use his skills.

I think that if Arroyo truly wanted to be a really good PG, he could. He has the court vision and dribbling skills. He just hasn't figured it out yet, and he's been in the league long enough that it's time to admit that it'll never happen.


I didn't and I don't think Arroyo will ever be anything more than a backup PG. I think he will get less money per year from whatever team signs him at the end of the season - I would be very surprised if a team gave him $4m a season - I think he'll end up getting around $2 to $2.5m. Not a bad check. Now, with that being said about Carlos.

I am very disappointed with Jameer - he had personal things going on in his life that have affected him, but it is time to step up. He no longer has anything in his way of reaching a different level. We have seen glimpses of what he can do, but I am very disappointed with his play. He is trying to play Carlos Arroyo's game - passing all the time and not looking for his shot, while Carlos is playing Jameer's game - trying to be a scorer. Jameer needs to score and he'll get assists, but he needs to score first and be aggressive with his scoring. Carlos needs to be a pass first PG as that is what he is best at.

We have a great coach and Otis is behind Jameer and no one is asking him to defer. I don't know how much impact his injury is having on him and how much of it is mental. I think he has talent to play the game - I don't think that is what is going on, but I expected this to be the season for him to step up and he hasn't. I still think he can be a major force in the league, but I'd like him to step up now.

I think our biggest need is at PF - we need a banger with talent that will allow Rashard to abuse a SF and for Hedo to do some abusing as well.

I am just tired of all the Carlos is God BS. Carlos is better, Carlos should start - well screw Carlos - I wouldn't get so annoyed if he was playing great. Sing Hedo's praises - I won't have a problem - I think Hedo needs to be a key piece, but the go to guy I want it to be Lewis or Nelson as our top 2 options - Hedo does better when he can play and go for over 18 a night without being the go to guy. An important guy, but not the go to guy doing a Lebron imitation.

It is like going absolutely nuts over Bogans - how Bogans played last year - like he is Dwayne Wade. He's not - he is playing much better this year and has actually turned into a good backup, but I would compare Bogans of last year to Carlos - not a whole lot to get excited about. And, it would just bug me if the guy in front of Bogans was just unmercifully chastised. If Bogans was from PR we would hear the same about Bogans - it is not possible for people to rate him for what he is - he is a backup PG - nothing more. I will be happy when he is gone and I hope we can get a PF in trade that is good - Arroyo has some trade value and then whatever team he goes to - the message board can be ruined for the fans of that team.
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Post#96 » by magicman123 » Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:43 am

jameer isnt playing bad..just not aggressive offensively, like in the past...he is taking 2 less shots a game then last year, and he is prolly the 4th option or so now (dwight improving, turk playin consistant, and lewis can score). and we do have 3 guys averaging around 20pts..
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Post#97 » by Optimus_Steel » Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:19 am

Hairy Midget wrote:Carlos is more skilled than Jameer at the NBA game, the only problem is that Arroyo doesn't always use his skills.

I think that if Arroyo truly wanted to be a really good PG, he could. He has the court vision and dribbling skills. He just hasn't figured it out yet, and he's been in the league long enough that it's time to admit that it'll never happen.


I agree. Carlos is just such a darn bonehead that he doenst do what he is really best suited for. And he has been in the league enough that if he hasent done it already he prob never will. Its a shame because like you said he does have the court vision, passing ability and dribble. He is just a bonehead though.
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Post#98 » by EasternMagic » Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:24 am

arroyo has been playing alright defense of late and passing good but i just think meer has better ball handling and runs the offense better
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Post#99 » by EasternMagic » Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:26 am

whocares wrote:1. -(jameer / (foot * p)) + arroyo (1 - q) + dooling / (hedo + dooling) = w, where p and q are in [0,1].
2. p : the rumor coefficient.
3. q : questioning (stan's decision) uncertainty constant.

you're just annoying
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Post#100 » by lovehoops01 » Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:35 am

magictreat wrote:-= original quote snipped =-


And he will get abuse once again by Billups, unless Stan, will put Mo Evans on Chauncey, which will be open season for Hamilton, God help us!!!!!!!!!!!! Jameer is such defensive liability....... :pray:


Hello.....That's what they did most of the game the other night when they beat Detroit. For the most part, Bogans or Evans were guarding Billups.

So if the Magic lose tonight and Jameer doesn't play, what will that mean? And if they lose Sunday and Jameer doesn't play, what does that mean? Personally, I think Jameer should stay out tonight and even Sunday if he's not feeling 100 percent yet. He needs to get healthy so that he will stay healthy for as much of the rest of the season as possible.

I say that even though there have been some things that have happened while he's been out that have been unsettling. In the game against Portland, there was a point when Carlos was playing PG when the entire offense was standing there watching Carlos dribble and finally Hedo threw his arms up in the air like, "What the hell are we doing?'' And then Arroyo took a shot because the shot clock was almost down to zero.

And then there was the game -- it might have been the same one -- when Carlos had zero assists.

There's been decidedly fewer alley oops while Jameer has been out, too -- and more missed ones. I've also noticed that they have had more home games lately and mostly capitalized on that. And I'm sure that the absence of Jameer is why Hedo has played better the past couple games (it's not that he was sick before that or anything) and why Rashard suddenly has been so much more aggressive. It's why Brian Cook suddenly is contributing, too, when he wasn't playing at all before. Yep, all that is because Jameer hasn't played.

Sure you can trade Jameer. And then Carlos and Keyon can leave in free agency, and you don't have a single point guard and not any significant money to go out and get one. You also would be trading the guy whose teammates elected him a captain, which means they respect him quite a bit. Which means you could set off a chemistry disaster the proportions of which you have no idea.

For all the trades we like to make on this board, the bottom line is that we have no idea what the relationships -- on the court and off -- are like. That's why I think you have to leave this sort of stuff to the team execs -- the coaches and the GMs.

For as much as you like to hate on Otis and tell everyone how clueless he is, he has put together a team that has one of the best records in the NBA even though most people would not look at their roster and say it's as talented as New Jersey's or even New York's, neither of which currently has one of the best records in the league. You could make a move that would have the chemistry-destroying nature that the Nets did when that ticked off Jason Kidd because they let Kenyon Martin go to the Denver Nuggets. If you'll notice, there have been rumors ever since then that Kidd wants out and that he will be traded. The GMs and coaches do know these guys and the relationships between them and who is important to what on the team. Do you guys think of any of this stuff when you just starting throwing all these trades out there?

You can put together all-star teams of guys who look like they can play together and they can't play together at all or get along at all. Believe it or not, the people closest to the situation, in this case, probably do know more than we do, and personally, I'm for letting them work it out instead of trying to create all this divisiveness on the same subjects on almost a daily basis. I'm sure there are reasons for their decisions. Otis has proved to us in the past that he would part ways with guys who he was fond of -- DeShawn and Trevor -- if he believed that he was making a move that would help the team in the end. I don't know him from Adam, but he definitely has his reasons for the moves he makes. And Van Gundy seems to have a pretty good pulse on this team, too, and I'm sure he will have his say moving forward.

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