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Shaq lies: "Amaree is best big in the NBA"

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Post#81 » by MagiChamps » Sun Feb 24, 2008 8:26 pm

oakfanintheeast wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



why compare point guards to jordan? obviously they would have different skill sets. kobe would be a lot better to compare to jordan than point guards.


Because you gave the ultimatum better skill set=better offensive player. I assumed that would apply to all positions. And yes that's why because they have different skill sets, just like Dwight has a different skill set from KG and Duncan. In the example Jordan=Dwight and Nash/Paul/Williams=KG/Duncan.
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Post#82 » by N4U|Redux » Sun Feb 24, 2008 8:52 pm

oakfan, I'd bail out, these guys obviously don't have eyeballs and their criteria for "best" is pretty warped.

lots of guys are able to be effective during the "normal" course of the game (i.e. Zach Randolph) but are easily shut down by others.

Michael Jordan is one of the best ever offensively because nobody could shut him down under any circumstance except himself. Dwight is very easily shut down by himself at times, and is not a player you ever go to for points unless in particular situations -- Duncan or KG (or Jordan) you could go to at anytime for some very efficient play.

I bailed out awhile ago, I'd advise you to do so as well alez and oakfan.
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Post#83 » by Last Guardian » Sun Feb 24, 2008 9:06 pm

I see their point. Its that Dwight isn't as reliable offensively as he should be. Shaq is a brute force guy but he was reliable. Dwight on the other hand can be taken out of the game on the offensive end. When he can use his strength and athleticism to be an unstoppable scorer in any situation, then he will be considered a better offensive player than KG and Duncan.

But oakfans argument is still horrible. He basically said because they can shoot they are better offensive players. Is Dirk a better offensive player than Shaq or Wilt was? Come on. It doesn't matter how you score.

Obviously, I still want Dwight to be more skilled on offense, since he doesn't have the size of Shaq to be as dominant a scorer in that way. He'll have to add a little Duncan to his game, who is good with those little shots around the basket.
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Post#84 » by N4U|Redux » Sun Feb 24, 2008 9:35 pm

Solid Snake wrote:I see their point. Its that Dwight isn't as reliable offensively as he should be. Shaq is a brute force guy but he was reliable. Dwight on the other hand can be taken out of the game on the offensive end. When he can use his strength and athleticism to be an unstoppable scorer in any situation, then he will be considered a better offensive player than KG and Duncan.


I don't know if oakfan really ever expressed it as that, but that was my exactly expressed point. Good job!

BTW - I wasn't including you in the unreasonable category; and if the guys I do have included in it can recognize the main point of my offensive argument (which you restated for me) then they're not as unreasonable as they appear.

But oakfans argument is still horrible. He basically said because they can shoot they are better offensive players. Is Dirk a better offensive player than Shaq or Wilt was? Come on. It doesn't matter how you score.


I agree with you here and disagree with him that he seems to be weighting finesse more for some reason.

As long as a guy can reliably produce results, something Shaq could do and Dwight cannot, it doesn't matter how he does it.

Obviously, I still want Dwight to be more skilled on offense, since he doesn't have the size of Shaq to be as dominant a scorer in that way. He'll have to add a little Duncan to his game, who is good with those little shots around the basket.


I'm hoping for a hybrid between the two. It would've been nice if Duncan were to bulk up a bit and assert more physical dominance through his career -- just as it'll now be nice to see if Dwight has it in him to become more than an athletic freak.
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Post#85 » by oakfanintheeast » Sun Feb 24, 2008 9:42 pm

i'm not weighing finesse, i'm weighing versatility. if you take a part away from KG's or TD's game, they can do something else. if you push dwight away from the basket, he's very limited.
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Post#86 » by N4U|Redux » Sun Feb 24, 2008 9:47 pm

oakfanintheeast wrote:i'm not weighing finesse, i'm weighing versatility. if you take a part away from KG's or TD's game, they can do something else. if you push dwight away from the basket, he's very limited.


I get the main emphasis you have, but I don't entirely agree with you.

Essentially what I'm saying is, while Shaq isn't as well rounded as a guy like Duncan may be (and thus, have less overall offensive ability) his "best" moves in the past were likely so good and so effective as to trump anything Duncan can do.

Duncan's versatility may almost make up for the difference of Shaq's sheer dominance but Shaq just couldn't be stopped if he wanted points most of the time. The issue of pushing Shaq away from the basket just didn't happen or he was always clever enough to get decent position.

At some point versatility becomes overrated compared to just being reliable regardless of how you do it.

One point where we defniitely agree though is that Dwight is not in Shaq's league really and that he does not exhibit enough sheer dominance and reliability at what he's good at to trump Duncan like Shaq feasibly could. So, Dwight really doesn't deserve to be in discussions with Duncan/KG.

Oh, and defensively, Dwight is does not possess even half of the ability KG/Duncan do. So, he in no way is better than these guys.
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Post#87 » by Happyfoosball » Sun Feb 24, 2008 9:48 pm

playjredz wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Awesome sig.


Thx, i'm a Kobe hater and i'm damn proud of it.
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Post#88 » by Bensational » Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:21 pm

Solid Snake wrote:I see their point. Its that Dwight isn't as reliable offensively as he should be. Shaq is a brute force guy but he was reliable. Dwight on the other hand can be taken out of the game on the offensive end. When he can use his strength and athleticism to be an unstoppable scorer in any situation, then he will be considered a better offensive player than KG and Duncan.

But oakfans argument is still horrible. He basically said because they can shoot they are better offensive players. Is Dirk a better offensive player than Shaq or Wilt was? Come on. It doesn't matter how you score.

Obviously, I still want Dwight to be more skilled on offense, since he doesn't have the size of Shaq to be as dominant a scorer in that way. He'll have to add a little Duncan to his game, who is good with those little shots around the basket.



thank god somebody finally got it right. it was hurting my head to read everyone calling Shaq most dominate ever.


i think the argument has finally run its course and been cleared up by Solid and N4U in the end.
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Post#89 » by mfishy » Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:44 pm

For the record, neither shaq nor duncan is looked at a whole lot during crunch time because they both shoot FT's like Dwight. Last time shaq mattered it was Wade on nearly every play down the stretch and the Spurs use Manu and Parker.

People use to cringe when wilt took jumpers because he was unstoppable by the rim. It's tough to argue that there has ever been a better ofensive player than wilt!

I for one am happy seeing Dwight continue to dominate as he does. It really is demoralizing for the opponent to get dunked on - moreso than to have a fadeaway landed on you. Lastly, Dwight's post game is solid and I only expect that to get better.
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Post#90 » by MagiChamps » Mon Feb 25, 2008 2:37 pm

mfishy wrote:For the record, neither shaq nor duncan is looked at a whole lot during crunch time because they both shoot FT's like Dwight. Last time shaq mattered it was Wade on nearly every play down the stretch and the Spurs use Manu and Parker.

People use to cringe when wilt took jumpers because he was unstoppable by the rim. It's tough to argue that there has ever been a better ofensive player than wilt!

I for one am happy seeing Dwight continue to dominate as he does. It really is demoralizing for the opponent to get dunked on - moreso than to have a fadeaway landed on you. Lastly, Dwight's post game is solid and I only expect that to get better.


Good point I wish I had brought that up.
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Post#91 » by N4U|Redux » Mon Feb 25, 2008 4:40 pm

All these exceptions evading the actual point that Dwight is not as refined as a player like Duncan or dominant as a player like Shaq was.

There's nothing wrong with Dwight's current style -- but he still has room to improve at that even, because he can easiliy be taken out of it. Short of "hack-a-shaq" there's no way you're disarming Shaq. You can employ "Hack-a-Dwight" on Dwight and........*insert strategy*
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Post#92 » by Happyfoosball » Mon Feb 25, 2008 4:51 pm

Dwight shoots free throws so much better then Shaq ever did. And he's getting better.
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Post#93 » by N4U|Redux » Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:00 pm

Happyfoosball wrote:Dwight shoots free throws so much better then Shaq ever did. And he's getting better.


It still takes him out.

And, the point wasn't the free throws. It was that, Shaq was so dominant that there was effectively no way to take him out without committing half of your team to him (which in turn made the rest of Shaq's team much better). Dwight is not in such a position of dominance.

I don't particularly care how a player scores. This is effectively the argument you guys have about him not being "pretty" like Duncan -- and I agree with you guys there. However, Duncan and Shaq (a better comparision for Dwight) are so much more 'unstoppable' when they have the ball (whether via finesse or sheer power) that it's a moot point how they accomplish their offensive efficiency. The only slight knock they have on them is their FT shooting, but we're sort of ignoring that for the sake of argument.

Dwight is not 'unstoppable' by any means dominance or finesse aside. So, it's not even debatable for him to be compared to great finesse bigs like Duncan or Hakeem, or a great purely dominant big like Shaq or Wilt.

Frankly, if you can't get that, you have no basketball IQ.

We're almost in accord here, I think we just differ in one aspect -- you probably feel Dwight IS as unstoppable as Duncan or Shaq are -- and that is baffling. Though, it is relieving that we both do not really care HOW a player scores, just that he does; I just don't feel Dwight is as reliable as some of the greats you guys are lumping him in with.
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Post#94 » by Happyfoosball » Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:17 pm

N4U|Redux wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



It still takes him out.

And, the point wasn't the free throws. It was that, Shaq was so dominant that there was effectively no way to take him out without committing half of your team to him (which in turn made the rest of Shaq's team much better). Dwight is not in such a position of dominance.

I don't particularly care how a player scores. This is effectively the argument you guys have about him not being "pretty" like Duncan -- and I agree with you guys there. However, Duncan and Shaq (a better comparision for Dwight) are so much more 'unstoppable' when they have the ball (whether via finesse or sheer power) that it's a moot point how they accomplish their offensive efficiency. The only slight knock they have on them is their FT shooting, but we're sort of ignoring that for the sake of argument.

Dwight is not 'unstoppable' by any means dominance or finesse aside. So, it's not even debatable for him to be compared to great finesse bigs like Duncan or Hakeem, or a great purely dominant big like Shaq or Wilt.

Frankly, if you can't get that, you have no basketball IQ.

We're almost in accord here, I think we just differ in one aspect -- you probably feel Dwight IS as unstoppable as Duncan or Shaq are -- and that is baffling. Though, it is relieving that we both do not really care HOW a player scores, just that he does; I just don't feel Dwight is as reliable as some of the greats you guys are lumping him in with.


I love how you keep saying that guys like Duncan and Shaq were UNSTOPPABLE and then you continue to make knocks on my basketball iq. Dude **** off. You don't have to call me or anyone else stupid everytime you post. Eat a dick.

Now back to talking about the subject, Duncan is not "unstoppable" i've seen him shut down on more then one occasion, and every great big man occasionally has to pass it out because he can't get a good shot. Dwgihts pretty damn good at getting a good shot. Good enough to average over 20 a game at the age of 22. And yeah mabye you can say guys like KG are "unstoppable" because if you take away his inside he can fade away and shoot a jumper, but that jumper isn't that high of a percentage shot especially if a defender gets his hand in his face and forces him beyond 15 feet. Sure if he's open he's gonna hit it 60-70 percent of the time, bot how many guys are gonna leave open? There is a reason why guys like Duncan's career high ppg are 25. KG's is usually a 20-24 ppg scorer as well, and KG with the game on the line isn't someone any team wants to go too. I've seen him miss so many game winning shots it's not even funny.

Those guys are not unstoppable. Shaq was as close too being unstoppable a big man that i've seen, then Hakeem during that 2 year stretch, but Hakeem wasn't for a large part of his career. You completely ignore the fact that Hakeem took years to develop the moves that he had, and by the time he mastered them, he was old 3 or 4 years later and couldn't do it anymore.

You don't know as much as you think I do. I admit I post angry all the time, and don't make the best posts, but I understand the game just fine and i'm sick of listening to little bitches like you constantly put me down. So **** you.
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Post#95 » by N4U|Redux » Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:31 pm

Happyfoosball wrote:You don't have to call me or anyone else stupid everytime you post. Eat a dick.


Have I done that here? Talking about basketball IQ is an entirely separate matter from "stupid." Einstein probably had a low basketball IQ, but he was certainly not "stupid."

Now back to talking about the subject, Duncan is not "unstoppable" i've seen him shut down on more then one occasion, and every great big man occasionally has to pass it out because he can't get a good shot.


Obviously he is not 'unstoppable' in a literal sense. However, "in general" it's understood that he's very reliable. As is KG and Shaq -- Dwight's peers that he's stacked up against in this thread.

On passing out because they cannot get a good shot, this is probably the biggest area offensively where Dwight differs from his great peers. He is a horrid passer out of pressure.

Dwgihts pretty damn good at getting a good shot. Good enough to average over 20 a game at the age of 22. And yeah mabye you can say guys like KG are "unstoppable" because if you take away his inside he can fade away and shoot a jumper, but that jumper isn't that high of a percentage shot especially if a defender gets his hand in his face and forces him beyond 15 feet.


Ah, immediately to the finesse argument which I'm not a part of. Let's say KG didn't need to do the fade away -- or, more easily comprehended, using Shaq -- it doesn't matter if he simply plows over his opponent to score when necessary (as long as he's not called for charging very often), Dwight possesses no move to score virtually at will with and is not a great passer out of pressure as noted earlier. Just as you're whining about finesse being seemingly favored by oakfan, why do you try to hamper finesse? If KG is effective at shooting as he is on the low block, does it matter? Does it matter that Jordan shot from outside of 15 ft much of the time and managed to shoot 50%? I don't think so, the argument applies both ways: it does not matter how you score if it's reliable in most cases despite seeing different types of pressures. Dwight is the least capable of fulfilling this type of need of his contemporaries.

I've seen him miss so many game winning shots it's not even funny.


That isn't the point. As explained earlier, there are some guys who are just great clutch guys and bad throughout the normal course of the game, and vice versa -- we're trying not to bias much here. It's not the point that Dwight isn't clutch, it's the point that he's not even reliable enough to bother consider going to in the clutch.

Those guys are not unstoppable. Shaq was as close too being unstoppable a big man that i've seen, then Hakeem during that 2 year stretch, but Hakeem wasn't for a large part of his career. You completely ignore the fact that Hakeem took years to develop the moves that he had, and by the time he mastered them, he was old 3 or 4 years later and couldn't do it anymore.


I completely ignored the fact? Where did I state that I was assuming Hakeem was such a great offensive player his entire career? I've been comparing these guys in their primes (as if that weren't obvious: Shaq is no longer unstoppable) just as Duncan and KG are rounding out theirs (yet Dwight isn't even close to his and he's being compared to them by certain people).

Oh and again, I did not mean unstoppable in a literal sense. They about as unstoppable as a human being is capable of against other human beings though. Nobody shoots 100%.

You don't know as much as you think I do. I admit I post angry all the time, and don't make the best posts, but I understand the game just fine and i'm sick of listening to little bitches like you constantly put me down. So **** you.


Then go away, I'm pretty sure nobody likes you anyway. There's a reason you are constantly harped on. Go away frat boy.
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Post#96 » by Happyfoosball » Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:01 pm

Dude your like John Kerry. You argue your way out of everything and constantly change little things in your posts to create new ways to prove how wrong I am. First you say Dwight doesn't deserve to be compared to KG and Duncan then you say they are rounding out and are on the down side of their career, then you say OF course you were talking about Hakeem in his prime when compairing to Dwight, and my response to that is why? Dwights 22 and far from his prime, why should he be compaired to Hakeem in his prime? That makes no friggen sense. And if Duncan and KG are rounding out then why can't Dwight be compaired to them? Are they THAT much better then Dwight right now or aren't they? Try making a consistent stance and sticking with it rather then flip flopping your opinions in a way to make you seem smarter then you really are everytime you post.

For example when you say unstoppable, it means unstoppable. It doesn't mean something else because your argument would be weakened if it were.

Other aspects of your post i have a problem with
+ Dwights gotten a lot better at passing out of the post, his turnovers are finally beneath 3. He's by no means perfercted it but he absolutely shouldn't be considered "limited" at that aspect of his game anymore.
+ Dwight has developed a jump hook, a bank jumper that i've seen him make on more then one occasion that both allow him to get off shots in the post without dunking and he can hit both of those shots now. The hump hook more often then the jumper but when either are on they are on.
+ Dwights become a decent free throw shooter down the stretch. When he's on, he's on and i've seen him close out many games this season hitting 80 percent of his free throws down the stretch. Then when he's off, he's off. But he's on a lot more then many in this thread give him credit for
+ Dwight has games where he doesn't get a lot of points, but so do Duncan, and Garnett. Shaq in his prime did not, but then Shaq sucks now so it really isn't relevent to this discussion anyway.

In closing, I still believe Dwight this year is better then KG and Duncan. I believe KG has a better supporting cast with Allen and Peirce and I believe that Duncan has a better cast in SA. Duncans a better passer, and a better touch shooter but he lacks explosion, KG has explosion but his old and he gets hurt easily, he's also not someone who can be relied on to a tough shot. Because as awesome as his fade aways are, the dude isn't strong enough to do what say Dwight does down low.

Oh and I post here because i'm an Orlando Magic fan and if you don't like me, oh well I could really give a rats ass. You're a stuck up prick anyway.
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Post#97 » by N4U|Redux » Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:57 pm

Happyfoosball wrote:Dude your like John Kerry. You argue your way out of everything and constantly change little things in your posts to create new ways to prove how wrong I am.


Dear God...

First you say Dwight doesn't deserve to be compared to KG and Duncan then you say they are rounding out and are on the down side of their career, then you say OF course you were talking about Hakeem in his prime when compairing to Dwight, and my response to that is why?


I never said KG/Duncan are "rounding out" their career. I said they're moving toward the end of the spectrum of their primes. That doesn't mean they're out of their primes yet, and it certainly doesn't mean they're
careers are winding down.


I wasn't comparing Dwight to Hakeem. I was comparing Shaq to Hakeem; which was an appropriate bridge for Dwight to Duncan, that could very well be our modern day Shaq/Hakeem. I merely cited Shaq/Hakeem as..get this, precedence.

Dwights 22 and far from his prime, why should he be compaired to Hakeem in his prime? That makes no friggen sense. And if Duncan and KG are rounding out then why can't Dwight be compaired to them? Are they THAT much better then Dwight right now or aren't they?


Repeat: Duncan and KG are not rounding out their careers. Also, they are some of the best PFs to ever play the game, just as the Dream is one of the bet Cs to ever play the game.

Try making a consistent stance and sticking with it rather then flip flopping your opinions in a way to make you seem smarter then you really are everytime you post.


Yes dubbya, I"m flip flopping. Go chug another beer.

For example when you say unstoppable, it means unstoppable. It doesn't mean something else because your argument would be weakened if it were.


Actually, unstoppable was being used in relative terms. Based on your criteria, nobody and nothing is unstoppable because unstoppable is an absolute term. However, I did not characterize my argument around the usage of "unstoppable" you're merely dissecting that word -- I also used the idea of "reliability" quite a bit. That is, Shaq/Hakeem or Duncan/KG are considerably more reliable than Dwight, in addition they are both more unstoppable than Dwight, though none of the above 5 are absolutely unstoppable obviously.

Why am I explaining semantics of language here? Did you make it out of HS, or did you drink your way through college and forget everything you learned in grade school?

+ Dwights gotten a lot better at passing out of the post, his turnovers are finally beneath 3. He's by no means perfercted it but he absolutely shouldn't be considered "limited" at that aspect of his game anymore.


Fair enough. Regardless, the question isn't if Dwight is "good." The question is whether he's better than the BEST (namely, KG/Duncan) not being as TO prone doesn't mean he's a better passer than them somehow. It means he's improved as any 22 year old is going to do, and he'll continue to do so, hopefully to the point he's a better passer than both of them.

Dwights become a decent free throw shooter down the stretch. When he's on, he's on and i've seen him close out many games this season hitting 80 percent of his free throws down the stretch. Then when he's off, he's off.


Go figure, when a player is making shots he's making them and when he's not, he's not. And I'm the one with poor speech mannerisms.

Dwight has games where he doesn't get a lot of points, but so do Duncan, and Garnett. Shaq in his prime did not, but then Shaq sucks now so it really isn't relevent to this discussion anyway.


Shaq does suck, and scoring every single game doesn't matter. It matters that you're reliable enough to be considered. I question this at times with Dwight, which is fine since he's 22 and still developing. I don't question such a thing in general with KG/Duncan or the "old" (which was the young) Shaq.

In closing, I still believe Dwight this year is better then KG and Duncan. I believe KG has a better supporting cast with Allen and Peirce and I believe that Duncan has a better cast in SA. Duncans a better passer, and a better touch shooter but he lacks explosion, KG has explosion but his old and he gets hurt easily, he's also not someone who can be relied on to a tough shot. Because as awesome as his fade aways are, the dude isn't strong enough to do what say Dwight does down low.


KG's cast has nothing to do with anything, he was an even better statistical player in previous years before having the cast he now has. Duncan's cast is likely great because of him, not despite him. Like I mentioned, I wish he'd go elsewhere because I want to see if its him or Popovich that are the primary reasons for the success of SA.

Oh and I post here because i'm an Orlando Magic fan and if you don't like me, oh well I could really give a rats ass. You're a stuck up prick anyway.


Ok drunkie. It is hilarious to see your posting style change though. I remember the actual "happy" foosball, perhaps you ought to change your name to "bitter drunk" foosball.

BTW - You're the one lashing out at people in the thread HF, not me, the other people I was disagreeing with were giving great debates, I'm not sure why I even bothered responding to you.
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Post#98 » by aleZ » Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:03 pm

N4U|Redux wrote: I remember the actual "happy" foosball, perhaps you ought to change your name to "bitter drunk" foosball.


:rofl: I remember him too, I mean the "50 wins" Happyfoosball of 04-05. Man, that thread, especially when he went back to delete his prediction, was classic. If only dr3 and Lucky were still around...
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Post#99 » by mhectorgato » Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:20 pm

aleZ wrote: :rofl: I remember him too, I mean the "50 wins" Happyfoosball of 04-05. Man, that thread, especially when he went back to delete his prediction, was classic. If only dr3 and Lucky were still around...


He's now a lurker.
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Post#100 » by Idunkonyou2 » Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:12 pm

Classic thread.

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