Official 2021 NBA Draft Thread Part 2

[Magic Mops]

I said he has shades of T-Mac. Not that he is the new T-Mac. Reading comprehension is important.

You loved Hezonja, so does that discredit your basketball opinions too? Gimme a break. Doncic has surpassed expectations. That is not the norm for European players. That is the exception.

...laughing at the fact that you think you were the first person to know Kuminga and you want credit for bringing him up first. Classic.

Shades of T mac. IF T mac couldn't shoot to save his life. if he couldn't,he wouldn't be T mac but Gerald Wallace. It's like saying Kaminsky has shades of Hakeem because he hit turnaround jumper once in practice.

He is fairly athletic and has strong frame, but he can't shoot and isn't that tall.

I'm not writing him off, but i see more of Isaac Okoro type prospect than two way- superstar wing like you are projecting.

Hezonja had nice tools, but it's clear his head was never there and his ego surpassed his talent. How many times i said i f*** Hezonja prediction? 4564544464225 times?

Doncic was best prospect in Europe and you written him off because he wasn't athletic. With MVP being Europien player, with former MVP being Europien player, with DPOY being Europien with best young player being Luka, it's clear that you need to drop your stereotypes.

laughing at the fact that you think you were the first person to know Kuminga and you want credit for bringing him up first.

Look, you can look it up. It's something factual. Compared him with OG Anunoby. Defense, not stiff, plus athlete, not so talented offensive player.

If the draft goes Cade, Mobley, Green, Suggs and were picking 5th, who do you draft pepe?

He will draft himself!!!
Magic will be Champions with Pepe!!

Skin who is your favorite with the Magic pick?
And who do you want with the Bulls pick?

[jonbob17]

Brothers....watching these scouting videos for the millionth time....it's cade bro.......we need to get this guy.....people whoever you need to pray to do.....do it.....4 leaf clovers.....lucky rabbit's foot.....whatever cliche good luck charm you got....we need it....i mean i would be really happy with Green and happy with Kuminga/Suggs/Mobley(i guess) but it's cade....he fits perfect with us

Sure, i mean this isnt a controversial stance, i think most people feel this way regardless of what team they support, but its really not realistic. If we dont get the first pick, i dont think theres much we can do. say we get 3rd or 4th pick, do you think the team thats gets #1 will be willing to give him up? I cant imagine they would take any trade for him unless it involves both our picks, probably multiple 1st coming up (probably our 1st next year) and a young player

So say we get 3rd, are you doing this?

Out - 3rd pick, 8th pick, 2022 1st, probably a SRP or two and atleast one of Cole,RJ, bamba or okeke?
In - Cade

That sounds like an awful steep price, but it is probably fairly accurate, assuming the team at the top would move off it anyways. If we could protect that '22 pick top 4-5, I'd probably make that deal. Unprotected 22 probably too much with this young squad.

I have Cade pretty comfortable at the top. I think the ceiling of the top 4 guys are all very high, but Cade's floor is also very high. He is going to be a very good player. Not so sure on the others.
Can Suggs make it as a 1? Can he be a top 10 point guard? It is a very crowded position.
I really like Green, but we haven't seen too many have a lot of success at that size and position lately. My money is on him, but there is plenty of risk. He's the best looking scoring guard in a long time imo.
Mobley, may have the highest upside, but probably the most risk of the top 4. He's the one I could see not being a decent starter.

Kuminga is just all projection. Who knows. Not sure I would even take him at 5, but probably. Though I might be able to be talked into taking him earlier on a good day.

I really think we should do what we can to get Cade. I thought we should do what we could to move up and steal Lamelo last year too, but probably completely unrealistic. I like tall guys that can pass.

[pepe1991]

In the sense of saying "If x is so easy, why can't x player do x?" You will find any examples for any player to prove a point. Defense, ball handling, awareness, passing, effort.. we can all give examples of players where it DOESN'T work... if I had the energy to post players that DID improve their shooting a decent amount or even massively, I can name like probably 50+ in the last 10 years easily.

Just off the top of my head taking 10 seconds to look up, a few starting guards that have are Kemba, Lowry, and even Marcus Smart can hit 5+ threes a game. The former were like sub 30% three point shooter for four/five years before consistently putting up 35%+ years.. and this is thinking for like 20 secs of guys I remember being really bad shooters at some point. Even Jaylen Brown was really bad in college his one year and looks like a great three point shooter in the NBA. That's 3 examples on one team alone

Even with your examples:

Gordon was a 40% FT shooter in college to around 70% in NBA. Had two years of NBA where he shot over 34% from three and this year for us shot 37% (small sample size) - obviously still not a great shooter, but at least can hit a few a game.

Isaac shouldn't even be on list. Hovers around 34% and looked really comfortable from the corners before his consecutive injuries. 80% from FT line. Again, never going to be a sharpshooter but not someone you can disregard as a non-threat from three.

Payton, sure, never became good shooter.

Fultz was one and then the shoulder stuff.

Howard/Simmons don't even try. Howard developed a bit of a mid-range game but nothing beyond that. They like to do their damage inside.

You have a point if people are saying these guys will turn into Duncan Robinson, then obviously no, a lot of guys do not develop into becoming someone you rely on for threes. That's changing their entire playstyle.

The point I think that tide is trying to be made here is that very rarely can you take a look at a college or NBA guy and say "He will be bad at shooting his entire career". Some guys prove that wrong from college straight into NBA, some take years in the NBA to develop that skill, but it gets there.. but if they have a skillset of Isaac where you know you are getting all-world defense, having shooting is a nice extra thing.

Also I don't think tide is saying it's easy.. it's that if someone has decent form and work ethic, it's something a lot of guys find easier than other skills. Some still never develop it, a lot do. It's a risk/reward scenario that a lot are willing to take the chance on.

My thing is, we need a pure go-to scorer. Some of the best scorers in NBA history were never great three point shooters, Jordan, Kobe, Wade. Different eras obviously, we can't ignore needing the ability to knock down the three, but having someone that just knows how to score, draw fouls, and create for themselves with ease will alleviate the pressure that our offense has faced the last .. however many years.

No one should ever draft ~looking~ for shooting. I can only see that as a viable option if the roster is already set and we need more guys that can stretch the floor, otherwise it's a crapshoot because a lot of the best shooters in college get exposed in the NBA OR take a few years to get to that level again, which in that case you might as well go for someone with more versatile scoring/upside.

This was some epic goal-posts moving to make point that other side ( in this case me ) never even made because tide goes to his usual di** measuring contest with me about his own agendas and opinions.

So let's go to orginal post


It was about Kuminga & Barnes being godawful fit for team that nobody can shoot even at league's average.
How da hell is this debatable? IT's not, that's the whole point. So he goes and reaches for " players can learn how to shoot " claims , despite ORlando has history with guys like Payton, Gordon, Oladipo, Bamba , Isaac , Fultz , Howard... who never actually become good shooters despite they were all pegged with same " they will figure shooting later " claims upon their drafting.
For crying out loud, Oladipo, best shooter among them, for career is actually still below league's average from 3 point line. And only in 2 out of 8 years, he shot above league's average.

Now let's expend on things in ever said, that you tried to bank on.

Where did i say that we should draft college stand-still shooter because those guys are elite in nba?
Well, you won't find it , because i never said it.
Over years i always talked down about guys like McDermott & Stauskas because they don't provide no "safe net " to their upside if they can't shoot in nba.

My thing is, we need a pure go-to scorer. Some of the best scorers in NBA history were never great three point shooters, Jordan, Kobe, Wade. Different eras obviously, we can't ignore needing the ability to knock down the three, but having someone that just knows how to score, draw fouls, and create for themselves with ease will alleviate the pressure that our offense has faced the last .. however many years.

Completly irrelevant to conversation. Conversation was can bad shooter learn how to be good/Great one.
His examples are:
Jason Kidd ( career 34,9 three point shooter on 50,7% TS, who by today's standards would be worst version of Westborok)

Nikola Vučević & Brook Lopez , two centers who are in their 30s who spent vast majority of their youth & nba career playing in era where not a single center shot a ball

Magic Johnson - guy who played in era where whole teams shot less 3s than Lillard shoots in single game. Do you know how dumb ,sad and missleading this sad attemp was ? Luka Doncic made more threes in 8 playoff games than Magic Johnson in first 5 nba seasons combined.

Trevor Ariza, guy who needed eight years ( 8 years ! ) to shoot over league's average for first time and who also spent vast majority of early nba years in league where teams shot 14,7 threes a game.

And all this comes from guy who i had debate last year how Doncic ( and Harden) are way better shooters than their percentages show because their gravity & triple treats make defense overreact , but their percentages are low because almost non of their threes are assisted. But last year tide said Doncic is "terribler shooter" because of percentages.


What I did NOT claim is that team needs to use lottery pick to draft good spot up shooter. What whole debate is about is how da f*** will Barnes & kuminga help this team when they will be another non-shooters on team where nobody can shoot?

Simple question - why are you worrying about ‘fit’ on a team with nobody good enough to warrant fitting in with?

We’re looking to draft the foundation of the future, not dress up the demolition site

Yet, adding poor shooter on team where nobody can shoot will devalue him as player a lot and make him that much worst as his weaknessess will be impossible to hide.
For better or worst most guys from this bunch: Isaac, Wendell, Bamba, Cole, Hampton, Okeke, Fultz are guys that will play with that guy for at least first 2,3 if not more years of his career. We can't pretend that fit doesn't matter when other guys will make 7 of 10 rotation players next year and probably beyond that.
Magic are not like 76ers during Process, where they had 3 rookies and army of desposable G league players. All above guys mentioned are first round picks on rookie contracts who will command exstension in next 3 years .
Decisions weather keeping him for long, trading him or letting them go in RFA is what will shape out this roster. You can like it or not, but that's pretty much reality.
You already have first decision comming this summer, about Wendell & Bamba. Makes no sense to burn up cumulative salary of + 20-25M a year for center position just to keep them both.
Fultz has team's option after 2023. Okeke , Hampton & Cole are eligiable for exstension in 2023.

[pepe1991]

I said he has shades of T-Mac. Not that he is the new T-Mac. Reading comprehension is important.

You loved Hezonja, so does that discredit your basketball opinions too? Gimme a break. Doncic has surpassed expectations. That is not the norm for European players. That is the exception.

...laughing at the fact that you think you were the first person to know Kuminga and you want credit for bringing him up first. Classic.

Shades of T mac. IF T mac couldn't shoot to save his life. if he couldn't,he wouldn't be T mac but Gerald Wallace. It's like saying Kaminsky has shades of Hakeem because he hit turnaround jumper once in practice.

He is fairly athletic and has strong frame, but he can't shoot and isn't that tall.

I'm not writing him off, but i see more of Isaac Okoro type prospect than two way- superstar wing like you are projecting.

Hezonja had nice tools, but it's clear his head was never there and his ego surpassed his talent. How many times i said i f*** Hezonja prediction? 4564544464225 times?

Doncic was best prospect in Europe and you written him off because he wasn't athletic. With MVP being Europien player, with former MVP being Europien player, with DPOY being Europien with best young player being Luka, it's clear that you need to drop your stereotypes.

laughing at the fact that you think you were the first person to know Kuminga and you want credit for bringing him up first.

Look, you can look it up. It's something factual. Compared him with OG Anunoby. Defense, not stiff, plus athlete, not so talented offensive player.

If the draft goes Cade, Mobley, Green, Suggs and were picking 5th, who do you draft pepe?

Cry?

I mean , you can use future & present assets to try to climb up to top 3. You can draft Kuminga if that is the case. But we can't pretend that adding Kuminga on roster with Wendell Carter, Isaac & Fultz is smart. It's not. It's much like 76ers decision to draft Fultz due "upside" despite Tatum being way better fit for their need. Sure they had Embiid & Simmons but in times they made that, probably decade altering mistake, Simmons played 0 nba games and Embiid played 31 games in nba.

We can pretend all day that it doesn't matter, that we will just flip switch and change whole roster for THAT guy, but other side of the coin is closer to reality. THAT guy won't look like THAT guy if everybody around him exposes his weaknesses and does not play up to his strenghts.

Let's assume KUminga is next Jimmy Butler. Now Jimmy is amazing player. But if you stick Rondo, Wade, Robin Lopez & Taj Gipson with him, how good he will be? Well, that roster was .500 roster on East and looked like definition of treadmill team.
Now move Butler to a team that has some sense of logic, with 3 shooters around him. Well, now you have team that goes to nba finals. And let's not act that Heat 2020 roster was that much more talented than .500 Bulls team that lost in first round. Difference is how Dragic, Adebayo, Herro & Robinson compliment Jimmy Buttler, opposite of how Rondo, Jimmy & Wade just clogged the paint and teams just built a wall in front of them, daring them to brick long jumpers. And this was still very good Wade, one that year earlier lead team to 48-34 record as go-to guy with only 53 games from Bosh ( before he had to retire).

[Bensational]

This was some epic goal-posts moving to make point that other side ( in this case me ) never even made because tide goes to his usual di** measuring contest with me about his own agendas and opinions.

So let's go to orginal post


It was about Kuminga & Barnes being godawful fit for team that nobody can shoot even at league's average.
How da hell is this debatable? IT's not, that's the whole point. So he goes and reaches for " players can learn how to shoot " claims , despite ORlando has history with guys like Payton, Gordon, Oladipo, Bamba , Isaac , Fultz , Howard... who never actually become good shooters despite they were all pegged with same " they will figure shooting later " claims upon their drafting.
For crying out loud, Oladipo, best shooter among them, for career is actually still below league's average from 3 point line. And only in 2 out of 8 years, he shot above league's average.

Now let's expend on things in ever said, that you tried to bank on.

Where did i say that we should draft college stand-still shooter because those guys are elite in nba?
Well, you won't find it , because i never said it.
Over years i always talked down about guys like McDermott & Stauskas because they don't provide no "safe net " to their upside if they can't shoot in nba.




Completly irrelevant to conversation. Conversation was can bad shooter learn how to be good/Great one.
His examples are:
Jason Kidd ( career 34,9 three point shooter on 50,7% TS, who by today's standards would be worst version of Westborok)

Nikola Vučević & Brook Lopez , two centers who are in their 30s who spent vast majority of their youth & nba career playing in era where not a single center shot a ball

Magic Johnson - guy who played in era where whole teams shot less 3s than Lillard shoots in single game. Do you know how dumb ,sad and missleading this sad attemp was ? Luka Doncic made more threes in 8 playoff games than Magic Johnson in first 5 nba seasons combined.

Trevor Ariza, guy who needed eight years ( 8 years ! ) to shoot over league's average for first time and who also spent vast majority of early nba years in league where teams shot 14,7 threes a game.

And all this comes from guy who i had debate last year how Doncic ( and Harden) are way better shooters than their percentages show because their gravity & triple treats make defense overreact , but their percentages are low because almost non of their threes are assisted. But last year tide said Doncic is "terribler shooter" because of percentages.


What I did NOT claim is that team needs to use lottery pick to draft good spot up shooter. What whole debate is about is how da f*** will Barnes & kuminga help this team when they will be another non-shooters on team where nobody can shoot?

Simple question - why are you worrying about ‘fit’ on a team with nobody good enough to warrant fitting in with?

We’re looking to draft the foundation of the future, not dress up the demolition site

Yet, adding poor shooter on team where nobody can shoot will devalue him as player a lot and make him that much worst as his weaknessess will be impossible to hide.
For better or worst most guys from this bunch: Isaac, Wendell, Bamba, Cole, Hampton, Okeke, Fultz are guys that will play with that guy for at least first 2,3 if not more years of his career. We can't pretend that fit doesn't matter when other guys will make 7 of 10 rotation players next year and probably beyond that.
Magic are not like 76ers during Process, where they had 3 rookies and army of desposable G league players. All above guys mentioned are first round picks on rookie contracts who will command exstension in next 3 years .
Decisions weather keeping him for long, trading him or letting them go in RFA is what will shape out this roster. You can like it or not, but that's pretty much reality.
You already have first decision comming this summer, about Wendell & Bamba. Makes no sense to burn up cumulative salary of + 20-25M a year for center position just to keep them both.
Fultz has team's option after 2023. Okeke , Hampton & Cole are eligiable for exstension in 2023.

So you’re saying you’d draft a player to complete this team rather than drafting the best talent and moving the other players to fit them? After spending countless posts already talking about how bad every player on the roster is, now you’re worried about how our next top draft pick will fit with them?

[pepe1991]

Simple question - why are you worrying about ‘fit’ on a team with nobody good enough to warrant fitting in with?

We’re looking to draft the foundation of the future, not dress up the demolition site

Yet, adding poor shooter on team where nobody can shoot will devalue him as player a lot and make him that much worst as his weaknessess will be impossible to hide.
For better or worst most guys from this bunch: Isaac, Wendell, Bamba, Cole, Hampton, Okeke, Fultz are guys that will play with that guy for at least first 2,3 if not more years of his career. We can't pretend that fit doesn't matter when other guys will make 7 of 10 rotation players next year and probably beyond that.
Magic are not like 76ers during Process, where they had 3 rookies and army of desposable G league players. All above guys mentioned are first round picks on rookie contracts who will command exstension in next 3 years .
Decisions weather keeping him for long, trading him or letting them go in RFA is what will shape out this roster. You can like it or not, but that's pretty much reality.
You already have first decision comming this summer, about Wendell & Bamba. Makes no sense to burn up cumulative salary of + 20-25M a year for center position just to keep them both.
Fultz has team's option after 2023. Okeke , Hampton & Cole are eligiable for exstension in 2023.

So you’re saying you’d draft a player to complete this team rather than drafting the best talent and moving the other players to fit them? After spending countless posts already talking about how bad every player on the roster is, now you’re worried about how our next top draft pick will fit with them?

This is such and bull**** goal post argument from start that it's hilarious. From 3 different sides, you tide and Soul, keep debating things that you pretend i said, so you can "debunk it" despite it's clear from every post i'm not saying what you are pretending that i'm saying.

How da f*** will drafting Kuminga ever do you any good if you alredy exstended Isaac on 4 years contract, Fultz on 3 years contract and regardless who center you decide to keep ( if not both) they also won't provide any spacing ?
On top of that with 3 years of their contracts up, Hampton & Anthony are going anywhere any time soon.


You want to draft BPA, sure,but that best player avelible will NEVER LOOK LIKE BEST PLAYER AVELIABLE if every single player around him exposes his weaknesses. It's like drafting Ben Simmons to put MCW, Biyombo, MKG & Tony Allen next to him. OFc he would suck. Nobody would be able to make jumpshot, teams would just clog paint and destroy Ben Simmons & his value.

if you draft Kuminga you have to start moving peaces that fit his game.
What a hell is here even arguable ? That drafting player that shot 25% for 3 & 65% FTs will be harmful if you add to his game center& PG who also shoot 25% for 3? Do any of you actaully watch any basketball outside of Orlando ? Do you see what happends when Bradley Beal is only player capable of making <8 foot jumper in starting lineup ? Spoiler alert: nothing good.

I'm talking about fit of Kuminga & Barnes and their fit with Orlando from my entery, first post, despite countless attemps to move goalposts it still doesn't change fact i'm talking about them. You, Knightro, Soul & Tide can try debate things that i never said, it still doesn't change fact that i didn't say them

[Skybox]

Beyond all of the measurables and the projections...how do we locate the guy with the FEROCITY of a Ja Morant or Spida Mitchell? That's where, in my very limited opinion, Suggs might be the great consolation prize at 2 or 3. He just might be the DWade of the group that plays way above projections because he just has that toughness and insane competitive spirit that is really difficult to sniff out with such limited info...I kind of feel the same way about Giddy with the CHI pick-does he just have that BBIQ that will blow up in the NBA?

[Bensational]

I’ve never heard you argue for Fultz and Isaac to be starters for our team so hard before.

And you want to talk about moving goal posts? Just be honest with yourself and admit no matter what decision is made you’ll find a way to bitch about it.

[Skybox]

Yet, adding poor shooter on team where nobody can shoot will devalue him as player a lot and make him that much worst as his weaknessess will be impossible to hide.
For better or worst most guys from this bunch: Isaac, Wendell, Bamba, Cole, Hampton, Okeke, Fultz are guys that will play with that guy for at least first 2,3 if not more years of his career. We can't pretend that fit doesn't matter when other guys will make 7 of 10 rotation players next year and probably beyond that.
Magic are not like 76ers during Process, where they had 3 rookies and army of desposable G league players. All above guys mentioned are first round picks on rookie contracts who will command exstension in next 3 years .
Decisions weather keeping him for long, trading him or letting them go in RFA is what will shape out this roster. You can like it or not, but that's pretty much reality.
You already have first decision comming this summer, about Wendell & Bamba. Makes no sense to burn up cumulative salary of + 20-25M a year for center position just to keep them both.
Fultz has team's option after 2023. Okeke , Hampton & Cole are eligiable for exstension in 2023.

So you’re saying you’d draft a player to complete this team rather than drafting the best talent and moving the other players to fit them? After spending countless posts already talking about how bad every player on the roster is, now you’re worried about how our next top draft pick will fit with them?

This is such and bull**** goal post argument from start that it's hilarious. From 3 different sides, you tide and Soul, keep debating things that you pretend i said, so you can "debunk it" despite it's clear from every post i'm not saying what you are pretending that i'm saying.

How da f*** will drafting Kuminga ever do you any good if you alredy exstended Isaac on 4 years contract, Fultz on 3 years contract and regardless who center you decide to keep ( if not both) they also won't provide any spacing ?
On top of that with 3 years of their contracts up, Hampton & Anthony are going anywhere any time soon.


You want to draft BPA, sure,but that best player avelible will NEVER LOOK LIKE BEST PLAYER AVELIABLE if every single player around him exposes his weaknesses. It's like drafting Ben Simmons to put MCW, Biyombo, MKG & Tony Allen next to him. OFc he would suck. Nobody would be able to make jumpshot, teams would just clog paint and destroy Ben Simmons & his value.

if you draft Kuminga you have to start moving peaces that fit his game.
What a hell is here even arguable ? That drafting player that shot 25% for 3 & 65% FTs will be harmful if you add to his game center& PG who also shoot 25% for 3? Do any of you actaully watch any basketball outside of Orlando ? Do you see what happends when Bradley Beal is only player capable of making <8 foot jumper in starting lineup ? Spoiler alert: nothing good.

I'm talking about fit of Kuminga & Barnes and their fit with Orlando from my entery, first post, despite countless attemps to move goalposts it still doesn't change fact i'm talking about them. You, Knightro, Soul & Tide can try debate things that i never said, it still doesn't change fact that i didn't say them

So who would you take at 5 with the obvious 4 gone?

[SOUL]

What didn't you say that I said you said?

All I was doing was clarifying tide's position on shooting, which is unless it's completely broken form wise (MKG) or traditional sort of center that has no desire to shoot (Biyombo/Capela), most people are going to take a prospect who isn't the best shooter percentage wise if he has a lot of other good skills.

I wouldn't pick that sort of player over a natural scorer/shooter that has just as much upside (Green/Cade), but if we're talking a draft situation between someone like Kuminga or Kispert, I'm picking a Kuminga 100% of the time.

I don't really care about fit either. Most of this roster won't be here when we're competing again. The only guy that has straight up earned a starting spot is Isaac, but he's going to have to prove more with his health, and hell, he might be some sort of PF/C hybrid. Can't even call him a small-ball C anymore because he's the same size as Vuc height wise, and he has seemed to grow into his frame a lot more.

[pepe1991]

I’ve never heard you argue for Fultz and Isaac to be starters for our team so hard before.

And you want to talk about moving goal posts? Just be honest with yourself and admit no matter what decision is made you’ll find a way to bitch about it.

Where they starters this year? Yes.
Last year? Yes
Year before ? Yes
Next year? Will be
Do they have exstensions for next 3 & 4 yeras ? Yes

What's so hard to grap that they are starting for us?

[Orl_Magic]

I have a feeling with the Bulls pick, WeHam will draft some player like Chuma. Some total sleeper pick that nobody sees coming.

[pepe1991]

What didn't you say that I said you said?

All I was doing was clarifying tide's position on shooting, which is unless it's completely broken form wise (MKG) or traditional sort of center that has no desire to shoot (Biyombo/Capela), most people are going to take a prospect who isn't the best shooter percentage wise if he has a lot of other good skills.

I wouldn't pick that sort of player over a natural scorer/shooter that has just as much upside (Green/Cade), but if we're talking a draft situation between someone like Kuminga or Kispert, I'm picking a Kuminga 100% of the time.

I don't really care about fit either. Most of this roster won't be here when we're competing again. The only guy that has straight up earned a starting spot is Isaac, but he's going to have to prove more with his health, and hell, he might be some sort of PF/C hybrid. Can't even call him a small-ball C anymore because he's the same size as Vuc height wise, and he has seemed to grow into his frame a lot more.

Where execlly i said that we should draft great stand still shooter that has no other game nor skills?
I asked that same question, in previous reply, and you didn't reply back, because i never said it.

Kuminga & Barnes are not mediocre shooters who are some 30-32% 3 point college / G league shooters who have really nice form but just can't get them to go in.
They are terrible shooters from every range. They simply do not have shooting touch at all at this moment.
Barnes can't even score in general, from any range.
in 12 out of 24 games he didn't even score 10 points.
His career high in college from 3 point line was 2 threes made.
In 5 college games he went to FT line 0 times. In additional 5 he failed to go to FT line more than once.



And to not reply on 5 posts at sime time. What to do if you fall to 5th and you think 4 good prospects are gone? isn't answer obvious? Trade up,whatever it takes or trade down, use Bulls pick and hord assets. Being 5th and going home with Kuminga probably long term will do nothing for your franchise. Just like going 5th with Hezonja did nothing, after we fell out of sweapstakes for Porzingis , Russell & Towns.

[tiderulz]

Yet, adding poor shooter on team where nobody can shoot will devalue him as player a lot and make him that much worst as his weaknessess will be impossible to hide.
For better or worst most guys from this bunch: Isaac, Wendell, Bamba, Cole, Hampton, Okeke, Fultz are guys that will play with that guy for at least first 2,3 if not more years of his career. We can't pretend that fit doesn't matter when other guys will make 7 of 10 rotation players next year and probably beyond that.
Magic are not like 76ers during Process, where they had 3 rookies and army of desposable G league players. All above guys mentioned are first round picks on rookie contracts who will command exstension in next 3 years .
Decisions weather keeping him for long, trading him or letting them go in RFA is what will shape out this roster. You can like it or not, but that's pretty much reality.
You already have first decision comming this summer, about Wendell & Bamba. Makes no sense to burn up cumulative salary of + 20-25M a year for center position just to keep them both.
Fultz has team's option after 2023. Okeke , Hampton & Cole are eligiable for exstension in 2023.

So you’re saying you’d draft a player to complete this team rather than drafting the best talent and moving the other players to fit them? After spending countless posts already talking about how bad every player on the roster is, now you’re worried about how our next top draft pick will fit with them?

This is such and bull**** goal post argument from start that it's hilarious. From 3 different sides, you tide and Soul, keep debating things that you pretend i said, so you can "debunk it" despite it's clear from every post i'm not saying what you are pretending that i'm saying.

How da f*** will drafting Kuminga ever do you any good if you alredy exstended Isaac on 4 years contract, Fultz on 3 years contract and regardless who center you decide to keep ( if not both) they also won't provide any spacing ?
On top of that with 3 years of their contracts up, Hampton & Anthony are going anywhere any time soon.


You want to draft BPA, sure,but that best player avelible will NEVER LOOK LIKE BEST PLAYER AVELIABLE if every single player around him exposes his weaknesses. It's like drafting Ben Simmons to put MCW, Biyombo, MKG & Tony Allen next to him. OFc he would suck. Nobody would be able to make jumpshot, teams would just clog paint and destroy Ben Simmons & his value.

if you draft Kuminga you have to start moving peaces that fit his game.
What a hell is here even arguable ? That drafting player that shot 25% for 3 & 65% FTs will be harmful if you add to his game center& PG who also shoot 25% for 3? Do any of you actaully watch any basketball outside of Orlando ? Do you see what happends when Bradley Beal is only player capable of making <8 foot jumper in starting lineup ? Spoiler alert: nothing good.

I'm talking about fit of Kuminga & Barnes and their fit with Orlando from my entery, first post, despite countless attemps to move goalposts it still doesn't change fact i'm talking about them. You, Knightro, Soul & Tide can try debate things that i never said, it still doesn't change fact that i didn't say them

I dont move goalposts, i just quote your words and arguments. and you need to keep my name out of your mouth. You took things to a personal and offensive level. i'm done engaging with you altogether. keep believing your opinion is better than everyone else here.

[Magic Mops]

What didn't you say that I said you said?

All I was doing was clarifying tide's position on shooting, which is unless it's completely broken form wise (MKG) or traditional sort of center that has no desire to shoot (Biyombo/Capela), most people are going to take a prospect who isn't the best shooter percentage wise if he has a lot of other good skills.

I wouldn't pick that sort of player over a natural scorer/shooter that has just as much upside (Green/Cade), but if we're talking a draft situation between someone like Kuminga or Kispert, I'm picking a Kuminga 100% of the time.

I don't really care about fit either. Most of this roster won't be here when we're competing again. The only guy that has straight up earned a starting spot is Isaac, but he's going to have to prove more with his health, and hell, he might be some sort of PF/C hybrid. Can't even call him a small-ball C anymore because he's the same size as Vuc height wise, and he has seemed to grow into his frame a lot more.

Where execlly i said that we should draft great stand still shooter that has no other game nor skills?
I asked that same question, in previous reply, and you didn't reply back, because i never said it.

Kuminga & Barnes are not mediocre shooters who are some 30-32% 3 point college / G league shooters who have really nice form but just can't get them to go in.
They are terrible shooters from every range. They simply do not have shooting touch at all at this moment.
Barnes can't even score in general, from any range.
in 12 out of 24 games he didn't even score 10 points.
His career high in college from 3 point line was 2 threes made.
In 5 college games he went to FT line 0 times. In additional 5 he failed to go to FT line more than once.



And to not reply on 5 posts at sime time. What to do if you fall to 5th and you think 4 good prospects are gone? isn't answer obvious? Trade up,whatever it takes or trade down, use Bulls pick and hord assets. Being 5th and going home with Kuminga probably long term will do nothing for your franchise. Just like going 5th with Hezonja did nothing, after we fell out of sweapstakes for Porzingis , Russell & Towns.

So who would you draft?

[pepe1991]

What didn't you say that I said you said?

All I was doing was clarifying tide's position on shooting, which is unless it's completely broken form wise (MKG) or traditional sort of center that has no desire to shoot (Biyombo/Capela), most people are going to take a prospect who isn't the best shooter percentage wise if he has a lot of other good skills.

I wouldn't pick that sort of player over a natural scorer/shooter that has just as much upside (Green/Cade), but if we're talking a draft situation between someone like Kuminga or Kispert, I'm picking a Kuminga 100% of the time.

I don't really care about fit either. Most of this roster won't be here when we're competing again. The only guy that has straight up earned a starting spot is Isaac, but he's going to have to prove more with his health, and hell, he might be some sort of PF/C hybrid. Can't even call him a small-ball C anymore because he's the same size as Vuc height wise, and he has seemed to grow into his frame a lot more.

Where execlly i said that we should draft great stand still shooter that has no other game nor skills?
I asked that same question, in previous reply, and you didn't reply back, because i never said it.

Kuminga & Barnes are not mediocre shooters who are some 30-32% 3 point college / G league shooters who have really nice form but just can't get them to go in.
They are terrible shooters from every range. They simply do not have shooting touch at all at this moment.
Barnes can't even score in general, from any range.
in 12 out of 24 games he didn't even score 10 points.
His career high in college from 3 point line was 2 threes made.
In 5 college games he went to FT line 0 times. In additional 5 he failed to go to FT line more than once.



And to not reply on 5 posts at sime time. What to do if you fall to 5th and you think 4 good prospects are gone? isn't answer obvious? Trade up,whatever it takes or trade down, use Bulls pick and hord assets. Being 5th and going home with Kuminga probably long term will do nothing for your franchise. Just like going 5th with Hezonja did nothing, after we fell out of sweapstakes for Porzingis , Russell & Towns.

So who would you draft?

I answered that question. I would prefer trade up if it's possible, if not, i would consider trading down for additional assets in future.
Tbh, if you have 5th pick and you hear rumors SGA is on a move, that's a guy i'm targeting.

[VFX]

I can’t believe I half-agree with pepe on something for once.

Not really sure why it gets thrown out there that “this isn’t the final roster, so it doesn’t matter who we select as long as they are bpa” argument.

Even if you disregard “fit” entirely, you are then focusing on “fit” down the road in the other direction. You probably wouldn’t draft a guy, to a team with poor shooters, with the expectation that they’re going to flip the whole roster to accommodate a top picks shortcomings ...

Either that, or you’re admitting down the road that the roster is inherently flawed because moves weren’t made, and the draft reports were accurate. Kinda like the last iteration of Orlando with Vuc/AG/Fournier/EP, or the Chicago/Philly example. The roster composition has to make sense at some point or you’re just burning time.

If you want to throw that argument out entirely, assuming moves will be made, then are you selecting a top 5 pick knowing they aren’t really players you would “build around” due to their shortcomings despite being “BPA?” We know there are countless examples of players considered BPA that are taken high to bust, but some aforementioned Donovan Mitchell, SGA, etc. always emerge because they have actual basketball skill.

Yes, players get better and can develop a shot. 1 season of stats against professional athletes isn’t the end all for a player’s journey. That being said, I also just have a hard time believing entire rosters are moved to accommodate shortcomings and that you can “build around” certain player archetypes successfully in this current form of nba basketball.

[Magic Mops]

Where execlly i said that we should draft great stand still shooter that has no other game nor skills?
I asked that same question, in previous reply, and you didn't reply back, because i never said it.

Kuminga & Barnes are not mediocre shooters who are some 30-32% 3 point college / G league shooters who have really nice form but just can't get them to go in.
They are terrible shooters from every range. They simply do not have shooting touch at all at this moment.
Barnes can't even score in general, from any range.
in 12 out of 24 games he didn't even score 10 points.
His career high in college from 3 point line was 2 threes made.
In 5 college games he went to FT line 0 times. In additional 5 he failed to go to FT line more than once.



And to not reply on 5 posts at sime time. What to do if you fall to 5th and you think 4 good prospects are gone? isn't answer obvious? Trade up,whatever it takes or trade down, use Bulls pick and hord assets. Being 5th and going home with Kuminga probably long term will do nothing for your franchise. Just like going 5th with Hezonja did nothing, after we fell out of sweapstakes for Porzingis , Russell & Towns.

So who would you draft?

I answered that question. I would prefer trade up if it's possible, if not, i would consider trading down for additional assets in future.
Tbh, if you have 5th pick and you hear rumors SGA is on a move, that's a guy i'm targeting.

I don't think Oklahoma will trade SGA.

Trading down for who?

Trade up for Cade.

[Knightro]

I can’t believe I half-agree with pepe on something for once.

Not really sure why it gets thrown out there that “this isn’t the final roster, so it doesn’t matter who we select as long as they are bpa” argument.

Even if you disregard “fit” entirely, you are then focusing on “fit” down the road in the other direction. You probably wouldn’t draft a guy, to a team with poor shooters, with the expectation that they’re going to flip the whole roster to accommodate a top picks shortcomings ...

Either that, or you’re admitting down the road that the roster is inherently flawed because moves weren’t made, and the draft reports were accurate. Kinda like the last iteration of Orlando with Vuc/AG/Fournier/EP, or the Chicago/Philly example. The roster composition has to make sense at some point or you’re just burning time.

If you want to throw that argument out entirely, assuming moves will be made, then are you selecting a top 5 pick knowing they aren’t really players you would “build around” due to their shortcomings despite being “BPA?” We know there are countless examples of players considered BPA that are taken high to bust, but some aforementioned Donovan Mitchell, SGA, etc. always emerge because they have actual basketball skill.

Yes, players get better and can develop a shot. 1 season of stats against professional athletes isn’t the end all for a player’s journey. That being said, I also just have a hard time believing entire rosters are moved to accommodate shortcomings and that you can “build around” certain player archetypes successfully in this current form of nba basketball.

The most valuable NBA archetype to me are tall perimeter based players who can score from three levels, create open shots for teammates either through passing or sheer gravity and also capably defend their position or multiple positions.

LeBron, Durant, Leonard, Giannis, Harden, Luka - that's the superstar archetype.

Yes, there are other positions that have great players, the three finalists for MVP are two centers and a point guard.

But think about this way.

If you had a team of five players who were all 6'8" and could do it all, everyone was a plus scorer/passer/defender - would you ever lose?

The group of 6'8" guys are going to beat five players who are 6'3" because they're just as skilled, only way bigger and stronger. They're also going to beat a team of 7 footers because they're faster and more effective in wide open space.

That is what makes guys like Kuminga and Barnes appealing for a lot of decision makers.

They may both have a tiny percentage chance to ever reach an elite level, but the absolute best case scenario for both of them is the arguably the most valuable archetype in the sport.

I can totally understand why people would not want to gamble on a player who may have very low odds of becoming a star, especially when there are other guys at other positions who seem like they have much higher odds.

Just giving my own two cents into the thought process.

[nicnac215]

I have a feeling with the Bulls pick, WeHam will draft some player like Chuma. Some total sleeper pick that nobody sees coming.

I can see WeHam trading one of Bamba/WCJ+ Bulls pick to trade back a few slots, draft Sengun and get a future 1st.