Coaching Search: 7/8 Update - Magic to hire Jamahl Mosley per Woj

[Nyce_1]

I know I mentioned this in an earlier post, but Mosley and Unseld Jr. have *remarkably* similar resumes.

-Both played four years of college basketball.
-Both went undrafted.
-Both broke in to the coaching ranks as player development coaches in 2005.
-Both were soon promoted to on the bench assistants.
-Both guys moved on and became assistant coaches on REALLY bad teams (Unseld on the post-Dwight Magic, Mosley on the post-LeBron Cavs)
-Despite coaching for those bad teams, both guys got snapped up by great coaches of playoff contenders in the West and gradually worked their way up to lead assistant in charge of the defensive schemes.

The only real difference from a resume perspective is Unseld Jr. went straight into scouting out of college and Mosley played professionally overseas for five years.

Otherwise they are pretty interchangeable from a resume perspective.

I'm giving the nod to Unseld because he's being credited with being behind a top-10 offense with the Wizards and a top-10 defense with the Nuggets. Give me a coach that can do it on both sides of the ball.

[EasternMagic]

Really surprised Atkinson hasn’t gotten any noise. Maybe that’s how it goes down though.

I am surprised by that as well. There's zero indication out there in the public space that he has interviewed for any of the seven openings that were out there.

There were minor reports about Atkinson being a "leading candidate" early on. With how this front office has operated, I wouldn't be surprised if he was or still is in the mix.

[pepe1991]

You guys are stressing too much about position that will be once again changed in year or two. No matter who takes this team, Phil Jackson with Greg Popovich and Bred Stevens as assistent, team is simply designed in this moment to be bad for at least 2-3 more years.
That's why guys like Atkinson will never take it. Hell, that's probably main reason why Penny didn't want it.
Most of rebuilding teams take no-name coaches because they are expendables.

[89Magicfan]

You guys are stressing too much about position that will be once again changed in year or two. No matter who takes this team, Phil Jackson with Greg Popovich and Bred Stevens as assistent, team is simply designed in this moment to be bad for at least 2-3 more years.
That's why guys like Atkinson will never take it. Hell, that's probably main reason why Penny didn't want it.
Most of rebuilding teams take no-name coaches because they are expendables.

I’m just surprised he’s not in talks with any team.

[Knightro]

You guys are stressing too much about position that will be once again changed in year or two. No matter who takes this team, Phil Jackson with Greg Popovich and Bred Stevens as assistent, team is simply designed in this moment to be bad for at least 2-3 more years.
That's why guys like Atkinson will never take it. Hell, that's probably main reason why Penny didn't want it.
Most of rebuilding teams take no-name coaches because they are expendables.

Ehh, I disagree.

If anything this being a clear rebuild will pretty much guarantee a coach job stability for at least 3 years because there are no expectations to win.

And Atkinson already took the Nets job and did well with the role when they had less talent *and* much worse incoming draft picks after that awful Pierce/Garnett trade.

Coaches believe in themselves and their abilities.

As far as Penny goes, I very much believe that he wanted the job more than Weltman and Hammond actually wanted to hire him.

[Nyce_1]

I'm hoping for a Woj tweet:

Kenny Atkinson, former Brooklyn Nets head coach, and current assistant with the Los Angeles Clippers, has emerged as a serious candidate for the Orlando Magic.

[pepe1991]

You guys are stressing too much about position that will be once again changed in year or two. No matter who takes this team, Phil Jackson with Greg Popovich and Bred Stevens as assistent, team is simply designed in this moment to be bad for at least 2-3 more years.
That's why guys like Atkinson will never take it. Hell, that's probably main reason why Penny didn't want it.
Most of rebuilding teams take no-name coaches because they are expendables.

Ehh, I disagree.

If anything this being a clear rebuild will pretty much guarantee a coach job stability for at least 3 years because there are no expectations to win.

And Atkinson already took the Nets job and did well with the role when they had less talent *and* much worse incoming draft picks after that awful Pierce/Garnett trade.

Coaches believe in themselves and their abilities.

As far as Penny goes, I very much believe that he wanted the job more than Weltman and Hammond actually wanted to hire him.

Brett Stevens saw whole rebuild through, most coaches simply don't.

Lloyd Pierce fired in Atlanta after 3 years.
Sam Mitchell fired in Minessota after 1 year.
Ryan Saunders fired in Minessota after 2 years.
Dave Joerger 3 years ( probably because he didn't want to start Bagley )
JV 3 years.
Lawrence Frank 2 years with Detroit
Fizdale 1 year with Knicks
John Beilein with Cavs 64 games
Larry Drew 1 year with Cavs

Suns changed 7 coaches ( and intrum coaches ) in 8 years.

You can belive in whatever you want, if you don't have talent required to compete and win, you are doomed. I remember when José Mourinho took over Man united in soccer. As he was leaving, and fans were booing him out of existence, he told them that being 4th was achivment with untalented bunch he had. History proved.... Him right. As they were even worst after him.

[OrlChamps2030]

I'm hoping for a Woj tweet:

Kenny Atkinson, former Brooklyn Nets head coach, and current assistant with the Los Angeles Clippers, has emerged as a serious candidate for the Orlando Magic.

Maybe the front office is keeping it low key, but it seems like Atkinson is choosing to wait for better jobs. I think we end up going with a first timer

[Knightro]

Brett Stevens saw whole rebuild through, most coaches simply don't.

Lloyd Pierce fired in Atlanta after 3 years.
Sam Mitchell fired in Minessota after 1 year.
Ryan Saunders fired in Minessota after 2 years.
Dave Joerger 3 years ( probably because he didn't want to start Bagley )
JV 3 years.
Lawrence Frank 2 years with Detroit
Fizdale 1 year with Knicks
John Beilein with Cavs 64 games
Larry Drew 1 year with Cavs

Suns changed 7 coaches ( and intrum coaches ) in 8 years.

All I said is that given the circumstances of the rebuild, I believe that the next coach of the Magic is going to get three years before ownership decides they're not the right man for the job. Heck, of the 9 coaches you cited, three of them got 3 years which is all I was saying in the first place.

And there are plenty of examples over the last decade of coaches getting 3 years despite having little success.

-Luke Walton got 3 years with the Lakers. He's about to start his 3rd year with the Kings. Never made the playoffs in either spot.
-James Borrego is about to start year 4 with the Hornets. Never made the playoffs.
-Brett Brown won just 75 games in four years not even sniffing the playoffs and got three more years after that.
-Mike Woodson missed the playoffs his first 3 years with Atlanta and got three more years after that.
-Byron Scott missed the playoffs his first 3 years with New Orleans and got two more years after that.
-Byron Scott again got 3 years with the Cavs. Never made the playoffs.
-Mike Malone missed the playoffs his first 3 years with Denver and got three more after that and counting.

The only risk for a potential head coach hire is that Weltman and Hammond are heading into their 5th offseason with the team and ownership might decide they're no longer the right men for the job sooner than they would the new head coach.

But since PBO's and GM's are often tied to their HC hires, the HC could get tossed out with Weltman and Hammond if they were to get fired first.

Otherwise? I expect the coach is going to get plenty of rope.

[OrlChamps2030]

Brett Stevens saw whole rebuild through, most coaches simply don't.

Lloyd Pierce fired in Atlanta after 3 years.
Sam Mitchell fired in Minessota after 1 year.
Ryan Saunders fired in Minessota after 2 years.
Dave Joerger 3 years ( probably because he didn't want to start Bagley )
JV 3 years.
Lawrence Frank 2 years with Detroit
Fizdale 1 year with Knicks
John Beilein with Cavs 64 games
Larry Drew 1 year with Cavs

Suns changed 7 coaches ( and intrum coaches ) in 8 years.

All I said is that given the circumstances of the rebuild, I believe that the next coach of the Magic is going to get three years before ownership decides they're not the right man for the job. Heck, of the 9 coaches you cited, three of them got 3 years which is all I was saying in the first place.

And there are plenty of examples over the last decade of coaches getting 3 years despite having little success.

-Luke Walton got 3 years with the Lakers. He's about to start his 3rd year with the Kings. Never made the playoffs in either spot.
-James Borrego is about to start year 4 with the Hornets. Never made the playoffs.
-Brett Brown won just 75 games in four years not even sniffing the playoffs and got three more years after that.
-Mike Woodson missed the playoffs his first 3 years with Atlanta and got three more years after that.
-Byron Scott missed the playoffs his first 3 years with New Orleans and got two more years after that.
-Byron Scott again got 3 years with the Cavs. Never made the playoffs.
-Mike Malone missed the playoffs his first 3 years with Denver and got three more after that and counting.

The only risk for a potential head coach hire is that Weltman and Hammond are heading into their 5th offseason with the team and ownership might decide they're no longer the right men for the job sooner than they would the new head coach.

But since PBO's and GM's are often tied to their HC hires, the HC could get tossed out with Weltman and Hammond if they were to get fired first.

Otherwise? I expect the coach is going to get plenty of rope.

I mean, look no farther than our own history post D-12.

Jacque Vaughn - 2.5 seasons
Borrego - .5 seasons
Skiles - 1 season
Vogel - 2 seasons
Clifford - 3 seasons

Safe to say, this isn’t the most stable organization. We’re about to enter a ground up rebuild.

I do agree the coach will get atleast 2 seasons - but it’s tough to turn it around after 2 tanking seasons. I think that’s why you don’t see/hear many experienced coaches interested in coaching here.

I agree with Pepe to an extent - Chances are our next hire won’t be our coach of the future (id be happy To be wrong). It will most likely just be a young sacrificial lamb that will keep the seat warm during this transitionary rebuild stage until we look for our next Clifford/Vogel/Skiles when Ownership decides they want to go all in on the 8th seed again

[davey_wavy]

Brett Stevens saw whole rebuild through, most coaches simply don't.

Lloyd Pierce fired in Atlanta after 3 years.
Sam Mitchell fired in Minessota after 1 year.
Ryan Saunders fired in Minessota after 2 years.
Dave Joerger 3 years ( probably because he didn't want to start Bagley )
JV 3 years.
Lawrence Frank 2 years with Detroit
Fizdale 1 year with Knicks
John Beilein with Cavs 64 games
Larry Drew 1 year with Cavs

Suns changed 7 coaches ( and intrum coaches ) in 8 years.

All I said is that given the circumstances of the rebuild, I believe that the next coach of the Magic is going to get three years before ownership decides they're not the right man for the job. Heck, of the 9 coaches you cited, three of them got 3 years which is all I was saying in the first place.

And there are plenty of examples over the last decade of coaches getting 3 years despite having little success.

-Luke Walton got 3 years with the Lakers. He's about to start his 3rd year with the Kings. Never made the playoffs in either spot.
-James Borrego is about to start year 4 with the Hornets. Never made the playoffs.
-Brett Brown won just 75 games in four years not even sniffing the playoffs and got three more years after that.
-Mike Woodson missed the playoffs his first 3 years with Atlanta and got three more years after that.
-Byron Scott missed the playoffs his first 3 years with New Orleans and got two more years after that.
-Byron Scott again got 3 years with the Cavs. Never made the playoffs.
-Mike Malone missed the playoffs his first 3 years with Denver and got three more after that and counting.

The only risk for a potential head coach hire is that Weltman and Hammond are heading into their 5th offseason with the team and ownership might decide they're no longer the right men for the job sooner than they would the new head coach.

But since PBO's and GM's are often tied to their HC hires, the HC could get tossed out with Weltman and Hammond if they were to get fired first.

Otherwise? I expect the coach is going to get plenty of rope.

I mean, look no farther than our own history post D-12.

Jacque Vaughn - 2.5 seasons
Borrego - .5 seasons
Skiles - 1 season
Vogel - 2 seasons
Clifford - 3 seasons

Safe to say, this isn’t the most stable organization. We’re about to enter a ground up rebuild.

I do agree the coach will get atleast 2 seasons - but it’s tough to turn it around after 2 tanking seasons. I think that’s why you don’t see/hear many experienced coaches interested in coaching here.

I agree with Pepe to an extent - Chances are our next hire won’t be our coach of the future (id be happy To be wrong). It will most likely just be a young sacrificial lamb that will keep the seat warm during this transitionary rebuild stage until we look for our next Clifford/Vogel/Skiles when Ownership decides they want to go all in on the 8th seed again

Exactly. Look at it in a real world situation: Would you apply for a job somewhere that's notorious for firing its employees?

I wouldn't unless I was desperate. Stability is so important

[Magic#1]

All I said is that given the circumstances of the rebuild, I believe that the next coach of the Magic is going to get three years before ownership decides they're not the right man for the job. Heck, of the 9 coaches you cited, three of them got 3 years which is all I was saying in the first place.

And there are plenty of examples over the last decade of coaches getting 3 years despite having little success.

-Luke Walton got 3 years with the Lakers. He's about to start his 3rd year with the Kings. Never made the playoffs in either spot.
-James Borrego is about to start year 4 with the Hornets. Never made the playoffs.
-Brett Brown won just 75 games in four years not even sniffing the playoffs and got three more years after that.
-Mike Woodson missed the playoffs his first 3 years with Atlanta and got three more years after that.
-Byron Scott missed the playoffs his first 3 years with New Orleans and got two more years after that.
-Byron Scott again got 3 years with the Cavs. Never made the playoffs.
-Mike Malone missed the playoffs his first 3 years with Denver and got three more after that and counting.

The only risk for a potential head coach hire is that Weltman and Hammond are heading into their 5th offseason with the team and ownership might decide they're no longer the right men for the job sooner than they would the new head coach.

But since PBO's and GM's are often tied to their HC hires, the HC could get tossed out with Weltman and Hammond if they were to get fired first.

Otherwise? I expect the coach is going to get plenty of rope.

I mean, look no farther than our own history post D-12.

Jacque Vaughn - 2.5 seasons
Borrego - .5 seasons
Skiles - 1 season
Vogel - 2 seasons
Clifford - 3 seasons

Safe to say, this isn’t the most stable organization. We’re about to enter a ground up rebuild.

I do agree the coach will get atleast 2 seasons - but it’s tough to turn it around after 2 tanking seasons. I think that’s why you don’t see/hear many experienced coaches interested in coaching here.

I agree with Pepe to an extent - Chances are our next hire won’t be our coach of the future (id be happy To be wrong). It will most likely just be a young sacrificial lamb that will keep the seat warm during this transitionary rebuild stage until we look for our next Clifford/Vogel/Skiles when Ownership decides they want to go all in on the 8th seed again

Exactly. Look at it in a real world situation: Would you apply for a job somewhere that's notorious for firing its employees?

I wouldn't unless I was desperate. Stability is so important

Would you take the job if it gave you a couple million dollars and even if it didn't work out, you could still likely go and earn six figures elsewhere? I'm sure candidates want some guarantee that they'll be given time due to our young roster, but a HC job in the NBA pays enough that even if they're fired, they can sit around for the rest of their life if they want.

[89Magicfan]

All I said is that given the circumstances of the rebuild, I believe that the next coach of the Magic is going to get three years before ownership decides they're not the right man for the job. Heck, of the 9 coaches you cited, three of them got 3 years which is all I was saying in the first place.

And there are plenty of examples over the last decade of coaches getting 3 years despite having little success.

-Luke Walton got 3 years with the Lakers. He's about to start his 3rd year with the Kings. Never made the playoffs in either spot.
-James Borrego is about to start year 4 with the Hornets. Never made the playoffs.
-Brett Brown won just 75 games in four years not even sniffing the playoffs and got three more years after that.
-Mike Woodson missed the playoffs his first 3 years with Atlanta and got three more years after that.
-Byron Scott missed the playoffs his first 3 years with New Orleans and got two more years after that.
-Byron Scott again got 3 years with the Cavs. Never made the playoffs.
-Mike Malone missed the playoffs his first 3 years with Denver and got three more after that and counting.

The only risk for a potential head coach hire is that Weltman and Hammond are heading into their 5th offseason with the team and ownership might decide they're no longer the right men for the job sooner than they would the new head coach.

But since PBO's and GM's are often tied to their HC hires, the HC could get tossed out with Weltman and Hammond if they were to get fired first.

Otherwise? I expect the coach is going to get plenty of rope.

I mean, look no farther than our own history post D-12.

Jacque Vaughn - 2.5 seasons
Borrego - .5 seasons
Skiles - 1 season
Vogel - 2 seasons
Clifford - 3 seasons

Safe to say, this isn’t the most stable organization. We’re about to enter a ground up rebuild.

I do agree the coach will get atleast 2 seasons - but it’s tough to turn it around after 2 tanking seasons. I think that’s why you don’t see/hear many experienced coaches interested in coaching here.

I agree with Pepe to an extent - Chances are our next hire won’t be our coach of the future (id be happy To be wrong). It will most likely just be a young sacrificial lamb that will keep the seat warm during this transitionary rebuild stage until we look for our next Clifford/Vogel/Skiles when Ownership decides they want to go all in on the 8th seed again

Exactly. Look at it in a real world situation: Would you apply for a job somewhere that's notorious for firing its employees?

I wouldn't unless I was desperate. Stability is so important

We didn’t fire Cliff

[drsd]

I agree with Pepe to an extent - Chances are our next hire won’t be our coach of the future

This might be true, but it is unlikely how PBO Weltman is approaching the process. The best coach will be hired, and the intention is thus to create winning. As winning could take three years, the next coach might be fired during that turnaround.

..

[davey_wavy]

I mean, look no farther than our own history post D-12.

Jacque Vaughn - 2.5 seasons
Borrego - .5 seasons
Skiles - 1 season
Vogel - 2 seasons
Clifford - 3 seasons

Safe to say, this isn’t the most stable organization. We’re about to enter a ground up rebuild.

I do agree the coach will get atleast 2 seasons - but it’s tough to turn it around after 2 tanking seasons. I think that’s why you don’t see/hear many experienced coaches interested in coaching here.

I agree with Pepe to an extent - Chances are our next hire won’t be our coach of the future (id be happy To be wrong). It will most likely just be a young sacrificial lamb that will keep the seat warm during this transitionary rebuild stage until we look for our next Clifford/Vogel/Skiles when Ownership decides they want to go all in on the 8th seed again

Exactly. Look at it in a real world situation: Would you apply for a job somewhere that's notorious for firing its employees?

I wouldn't unless I was desperate. Stability is so important

Would you take the job if it gave you a couple million dollars and even if it didn't work out, you could still likely go and earn six figures elsewhere? I'm sure candidates want some guarantee that they'll be given time due to our young roster, but a HC job in the NBA pays enough that even if they're fired, they can sit around for the rest of their life if they want.

Sometimes you only get 1 shot at a HC job- want to use it on our team? There's no guarantees you'll be an assistant afterwards once you are canned either. You'll be rich, sure, but that's not what we are talking about. We are discussing why someone would pass on a job that offers zero stability

[RickB-Orlando]

I mean, look no farther than our own history post D-12.

Jacque Vaughn - 2.5 seasons
Borrego - .5 seasons
Skiles - 1 season
Vogel - 2 seasons
Clifford - 3 seasons

Safe to say, this isn’t the most stable organization. We’re about to enter a ground up rebuild.

I do agree the coach will get atleast 2 seasons - but it’s tough to turn it around after 2 tanking seasons. I think that’s why you don’t see/hear many experienced coaches interested in coaching here.

I agree with Pepe to an extent - Chances are our next hire won’t be our coach of the future (id be happy To be wrong). It will most likely just be a young sacrificial lamb that will keep the seat warm during this transitionary rebuild stage until we look for our next Clifford/Vogel/Skiles when Ownership decides they want to go all in on the 8th seed again

Exactly. Look at it in a real world situation: Would you apply for a job somewhere that's notorious for firing its employees?

I wouldn't unless I was desperate. Stability is so important

We didn’t fire Cliff

Or Skiles. Borrego was an intErim, so you can’t count him.

The only ones that really got fired were Vaughn and Vogel, and both were disastrous here, showing no improvement and minimal player development.

[OrlChamps2030]

Exactly. Look at it in a real world situation: Would you apply for a job somewhere that's notorious for firing its employees?

I wouldn't unless I was desperate. Stability is so important

We didn’t fire Cliff

Or Skiles. Borrego was an intErim, so you can’t count him.

The only ones that really got fired were Vaughn and Vogel, and both were disastrous here, showing no improvement and minimal player development.

I never said they got fired. Their short tenures still reflect as instability.

They quit because they didn’t believe/agree with the direction of management. Not sure how much more stable that is than getting fired.

[D J C]

I know I mentioned this in an earlier post, but Mosley and Unseld Jr. have *remarkably* similar resumes.

-Both played four years of college basketball.
-Both went undrafted.
-Both broke in to the coaching ranks as player development coaches in 2005.
-Both were soon promoted to on the bench assistants.
-Both guys moved on and became assistant coaches on REALLY bad teams (Unseld on the post-Dwight Magic, Mosley on the post-LeBron Cavs)
-Despite coaching for those bad teams, both guys got snapped up by great coaches of playoff contenders in the West and gradually worked their way up to lead assistant in charge of the defensive schemes.

The only real difference from a resume perspective is Unseld Jr. went straight into scouting out of college and Mosley played professionally overseas for five years.

Otherwise they are pretty interchangeable from a resume perspective.

Great observations and doesn't seem accidental at all. Also, both seem to good with player relationships and have support of their superstars. Doncic had great things to say about Mosley, and Jokic about Unseld.

[89Magicfan]

We didn’t fire Cliff

Or Skiles. Borrego was an intErim, so you can’t count him.

The only ones that really got fired were Vaughn and Vogel, and both were disastrous here, showing no improvement and minimal player development.

I never said they got fired. Their short tenures still reflect as instability.

No Vaughn just sucked.

[OrlChamps2030]

You guys are stressing too much about position that will be once again changed in year or two. No matter who takes this team, Phil Jackson with Greg Popovich and Bred Stevens as assistent, team is simply designed in this moment to be bad for at least 2-3 more years.
That's why guys like Atkinson will never take it. Hell, that's probably main reason why Penny didn't want it.
Most of rebuilding teams take no-name coaches because they are expendables.

Let’s be real, most first time head coaches are patsys. They get hired during an inevitable rebuild because they can lose with a smile on their face and won’t rage like Skiles/Clifford.

Like you said - most experienced coaches aren’t signing up for a rebuild.

First time coaches get hired cheap, collect the blame when the loses pile up during year 2/3 of the rebuild, and then collect millions after they get fired. Everybody wins!