Official Speculation Thread ‘17-18’: XVIII: The Long Wait Continues

[PrimeThyme]

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Breaking: The Orlando Magic have signed Nikola Vucevic to an 80 million dollar 4-year extension && assigned Mo Bamba to the Lakeland Magic.

[Knightro]

“One person that I’ve really leaned on as far as helping me get used to the NBA game is Vooch,” Bamba said. “He’ll come up to me and he goes, ‘You want to do it this way and not this way,’ and he’ll explain why. He’s just been so helpful with just making this transition.”

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/orlando-magic/os-sp-orlando-magic-nikola-vucevic-0927-story.html

Robbins with a deep dive into Vucevic as he heads into what could be his final season in Orlando.

Sounds like Clifford wants to use him in the post/around the basket more. I'm not against that if it comes at the expense of midrange jumpers.

[pepe1991]

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Completely validating my criticism of his hiring.

He is 3rd coach in the row who is basically different face of same person.
Might as well keep Vogel for another year, not like they will learn anything new with any of them.

Magic didn't have high level coach since SVG, all this guys are replacment guys who fill roll and don't bring any additional value to a team. Mostly because non of them have name value to implement things they want to front office or ownership, therfore they are just exstended hand of front office.

Cliff going in public with this just means that team, front office included are still delusional . They simply don't understand how bad they are and how their inability to tank when they should led to countless of picks outside of top 5 where they can't land star needed to compete at this day and age . Literally only allstar they drafted in last 8 years is one who was selected within top 3 pick, and they never got top 3 pick again.

[Blue_and_Whte]

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Completely validating my criticism of his hiring.

Unbelievable. Its a fact that teams have to plan around defending Nik as one of our best overall players. What are you upset about? That it validates Nik as a good and respected nba player or that Cliff shared that fact?

[PennytoShaq]

Holy **** he called Bamba raw then turned around and called AD raw too Lmao. I feel bad for Bamba with those standards.

You’re the one who made the claim. If almost all high ceiling guys came through the league raw, it should be easy to figure out. I went through the top 30 - I’d consider Butler, Giannis, Gobert, Draymond the only “raw” ones entering the league on that list.






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I did not make any “claim”, what are you even going on about?

Do you not understand that I simply said that players come into the league raw, and that is stated over and over by coaches GMs and pundits? Anthony Davis was raw when he came in. That’s common knowledge. If you don’t understand this, then it explains why the discussion flew right over your head.

The funny thing is you ask me to debate this list, and I responded. I even told you to go watch him get drafted on YouTube and listen to the comments. And you respond with something childish that doesn’t even make sense.

Your consideration of who is “raw” is just not even in close to inline with mine or draft anyalysts. So there is no point in discussing this. Your opinion is in the small minority, so saying “fans of bad teams say these things” was just a ridiculous comment that you apparently can only back up with your own subjective opinion.

Againm, your opinion is meaningless. I am stating what others said. Don’t believe me? Here is AD’s draft profile weaknesses:

“Weaknesses: The number one drawback on Davis is his overall strength, or lack thereof .. Despite his youth, he is unquestionably thin and the issue remains just how much weight he can add, and how that added weight will affect his speed and agility ... His shoulders suggest he can build on his frame, and he’s noticeably chiseled his arms, however a thin waist likely means he won;t be able to bulk up substantially ... Must work on his core and lower body- easily gets pinned and backed down in the paint ... Unable to establish and maintain position inside, often finding himself bumped off balance ... Rarely used in isolation post-up’s during his freshman campaign, particularly given his size advantage on many nights and solid footwork ... Offensive canvas is raw, with obvious enormous room for improvement ... Doesn’t yet have a feel for his jump shot, often rushing the attempt and shooting a flat shot ... There are times where he displays extreme comfort handling the ball, but face-up/dribble-drive maneuvers are few and far between ... While he’s a tremendous secondary and tertiary leaper, he too often leaves his feet on pump fakes ... It’s hard to fault him for being shot block happy, but the lack of discipline is not to his benefit ... His athleticism and length won’t cover up all shortcomings against super competition ... Projecting Davis going forward, there’s not much to dislike ... Physical maturity is the only visible hurdle standing in his path to beast mode.”

You can type LOL and lie to yourself that AD was not raw when he came into the league, but it just demonstrates that you don’t really know what you are talking about.

If anything, this should make people feel better about what Bamba can become, same with JI.

Your claim was high ceiling players ALWAYS come into the league raw. That’s a significant claim that I feel like one should back or frame an actual argument.

Instead of copy and pasting quotes from media (you really blindly follow the media like that?) why don’t you just revisit his rookie season.. def not raw

NCAA champion (2012)
NCAA Final Four Most Outstanding Player (2012)
Consensus national player of the year (2012)
Consensus first-team All-American (2012)
NABC Defensive Player of the Year (2012)
USBWA National Freshman of the Year (2012)
SEC Player of the Year (2012)
SEC Defensive Player of the Year (2012)

That’s coming into the nba

Sell your season tickets for the magic so you have time to follow the rest of the league. Your casualness is embarrassing

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No, I said I meant to type “almost always” and you quoted me acknowledging that, so I imagine you read it. I would hope so at least.

You still completely missed the argument I made. It blew right over your head so now you are reduced to just saying I’m casual.

I posted about his rookie numbers initially. You missed that as well.

You just mentioned his college accolades, which really don’t mean anything. I would imagine that someone who pretends to have NBA knowledge would already see the phallacy in this, but you missed that too.

Even better, you started this whole argument by posting a media link from CBS sports as your main piece of evidence, then finished your argument by telling me not to copy and paste quotes from the media and blindly follow them.

Talk about moving the goalposts. Before trying to act high and mighty, at least learn how to make a proper argument instead of moving the goalposts every time. The only thing that is casual and embarrassing is how you can’t seem to see what you are doing.

[PennytoShaq]

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Completely validating my criticism of his hiring.

Well if that’s all it takes, it is safe to say that you would not give the guy a chance no matter what.

We literally all have agreed that preseason and media day is all words and it means nothing. Yet you get upset when Clifford says something that is the truth? Vuc is the guy who Orlando has ran the offense through for years. And until he gets traded, that’s probably still going to be the case since we have no real perimeter scoring and very young wing players.

Does it make sense to bench a starter for a new draft pick that barely weighs 225? To me, it seems like an unreasonable thing to expect from an NBA team. Would I like to see Bamba start? Yes, for sure. But why would the Magic bench Vuc, especially when they are possibly trying to trade him?

I don’t really see anything wrong with what Clifford is saying here, and I am not even a huge fan of the hire. An NBA coach is going to play his best guys.

Most people were saying that Clifford would not start Isaac yet that appears to not be the case at all. Besides Bamba not starting yet, I don’t see much wrong with the projected rotation. But I haven’t heard many people who are super critical of Clifford acknowledge that Isaac starting is great thing for us. Instead I see overreaction that Vuc is still here when there has not been one decent trade rumor that he is a part of yet.

[pepe1991]

You don't need to bench Vuc for Bamba but pointing out he is best Magic player, or no. 1 option is also unnecessary. Especially when nobody asked.
I still fail to see what makes him better than Evan who is by far best Magic offensive player but whatever.

[VFX]

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Completely validating my criticism of his hiring.

Unbelievable. Its a fact that teams have to plan around defending Nik as one of our best overall players. What are you upset about? That it validates Nik as a good and respected nba player or that Cliff shared that fact?

That for as long as they consider Vuc to be an integral part of the offense (for better or worse) this organization will never be forced to actually think outside what hasn’t worked for them since he’s been here. Vuc is great, but not as a crutch to lean on for lack of offense.

[OrlChamps2030]

I did not make any “claim”, what are you even going on about?

Do you not understand that I simply said that players come into the league raw, and that is stated over and over by coaches GMs and pundits? Anthony Davis was raw when he came in. That’s common knowledge. If you don’t understand this, then it explains why the discussion flew right over your head.

The funny thing is you ask me to debate this list, and I responded. I even told you to go watch him get drafted on YouTube and listen to the comments. And you respond with something childish that doesn’t even make sense.

Your consideration of who is “raw” is just not even in close to inline with mine or draft anyalysts. So there is no point in discussing this. Your opinion is in the small minority, so saying “fans of bad teams say these things” was just a ridiculous comment that you apparently can only back up with your own subjective opinion.

Againm, your opinion is meaningless. I am stating what others said. Don’t believe me? Here is AD’s draft profile weaknesses:

“Weaknesses: The number one drawback on Davis is his overall strength, or lack thereof .. Despite his youth, he is unquestionably thin and the issue remains just how much weight he can add, and how that added weight will affect his speed and agility ... His shoulders suggest he can build on his frame, and he’s noticeably chiseled his arms, however a thin waist likely means he won;t be able to bulk up substantially ... Must work on his core and lower body- easily gets pinned and backed down in the paint ... Unable to establish and maintain position inside, often finding himself bumped off balance ... Rarely used in isolation post-up’s during his freshman campaign, particularly given his size advantage on many nights and solid footwork ... Offensive canvas is raw, with obvious enormous room for improvement ... Doesn’t yet have a feel for his jump shot, often rushing the attempt and shooting a flat shot ... There are times where he displays extreme comfort handling the ball, but face-up/dribble-drive maneuvers are few and far between ... While he’s a tremendous secondary and tertiary leaper, he too often leaves his feet on pump fakes ... It’s hard to fault him for being shot block happy, but the lack of discipline is not to his benefit ... His athleticism and length won’t cover up all shortcomings against super competition ... Projecting Davis going forward, there’s not much to dislike ... Physical maturity is the only visible hurdle standing in his path to beast mode.”

You can type LOL and lie to yourself that AD was not raw when he came into the league, but it just demonstrates that you don’t really know what you are talking about.

If anything, this should make people feel better about what Bamba can become, same with JI.

Your claim was high ceiling players ALWAYS come into the league raw. That’s a significant claim that I feel like one should back or frame an actual argument.

Instead of copy and pasting quotes from media (you really blindly follow the media like that?) why don’t you just revisit his rookie season.. def not raw

NCAA champion (2012)
NCAA Final Four Most Outstanding Player (2012)
Consensus national player of the year (2012)
Consensus first-team All-American (2012)
NABC Defensive Player of the Year (2012)
USBWA National Freshman of the Year (2012)
SEC Player of the Year (2012)
SEC Defensive Player of the Year (2012)

That’s coming into the nba

Sell your season tickets for the magic so you have time to follow the rest of the league. Your casualness is embarrassing

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No, I said I meant to type “almost always” and you quoted me acknowledging that, so I imagine you read it. I would hope so at least.

You still completely missed the argument I made. It blew right over your head so now you are reduced to just saying I’m casual.

I posted about his rookie numbers initially. You missed that as well.

You just mentioned his college accolades, which really don’t mean anything. I would imagine that someone who pretends to have NBA knowledge would already see the phallacy in this, but you missed that too.

Even better, you started this whole argument by posting a media link from CBS sports as your main piece of evidence, then finished your argument by telling me not to copy and paste quotes from the media and blindly follow them.

Talk about moving the goalposts. Before trying to act high and mighty, at least learn how to make a proper argument instead of moving the goalposts every time. The only thing that is casual and embarrassing is how you can’t seem to see what you are doing.

I only posted that article to form some kind of base for ranking elite players. You can use any form of ranking to find elite players that were raw. You can even use your own rankings, I don’t mind. I’ve already stated my opinion: Butler, Giannis, Draymond, Gobert were the only raw players coming in that turned out elite later. There must be a lot of names im missing if almost all elite players were raw coming in.

It’s funny how you continue to quadruple down on AD being raw coming in.. he put up 13/8/2/1/1 on 29 mpg with a PER >20 as a 19 year old rookie. That’s a sensational rookie season. Everyone knew he was a future superstar as a rook.

My goal posts remain the same.. provide names of raw players who became elite/stars/superstars..

Phallacy had me dead though.. Freudian slip?

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[PennytoShaq]

Your claim was high ceiling players ALWAYS come into the league raw. That’s a significant claim that I feel like one should back or frame an actual argument.

Instead of copy and pasting quotes from media (you really blindly follow the media like that?) why don’t you just revisit his rookie season.. def not raw

NCAA champion (2012)
NCAA Final Four Most Outstanding Player (2012)
Consensus national player of the year (2012)
Consensus first-team All-American (2012)
NABC Defensive Player of the Year (2012)
USBWA National Freshman of the Year (2012)
SEC Player of the Year (2012)
SEC Defensive Player of the Year (2012)

That’s coming into the nba

Sell your season tickets for the magic so you have time to follow the rest of the league. Your casualness is embarrassing

Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

No, I said I meant to type “almost always” and you quoted me acknowledging that, so I imagine you read it. I would hope so at least.

You still completely missed the argument I made. It blew right over your head so now you are reduced to just saying I’m casual.

I posted about his rookie numbers initially. You missed that as well.

You just mentioned his college accolades, which really don’t mean anything. I would imagine that someone who pretends to have NBA knowledge would already see the phallacy in this, but you missed that too.

Even better, you started this whole argument by posting a media link from CBS sports as your main piece of evidence, then finished your argument by telling me not to copy and paste quotes from the media and blindly follow them.

Talk about moving the goalposts. Before trying to act high and mighty, at least learn how to make a proper argument instead of moving the goalposts every time. The only thing that is casual and embarrassing is how you can’t seem to see what you are doing.

I only posted that article to form some kind of base for ranking elite players. You can use any form of ranking to find elite players that were raw. You can even use your own rankings, I don’t mind. I’ve already stated my opinion: Butler, Giannis, Draymond, Gobert were the only raw players coming in that turned out elite later. There must be a lot of names im missing if almost all elite players were raw coming in.

It’s funny how you continue to quadruple down on AD being raw coming in.. he put up 13/8/2/1/1 on 29 mpg with a PER >20 as a 19 year old rookie. That’s a sensational rookie season. Everyone knew he was a future superstar as a rook.

My goal posts remain the same.. provide names of raw players who became elite/stars/superstars..

Phallacy had me dead though.. Freudian slip?

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What has me dead is how you just make this a personal argument since my entire point was that the majority of players who become stars come into the league raw. I just took a top 3 player and showed that. AD was clearly going to be a star but he was very raw in his first year. This is simply a fundamental disagreement on what your belief of rare actually is versus mine. The only difference is literally everyone who talked about AD coming into the league said he would be a star but it would take time and he was a raw prospect . And that’s all I have been saying the whole time. This last post just shows you are not getting what I am saying, which is amusing since I said it multiple times. I even showed you pre-draft analysis of him and your defense was “don’t believe the media”, clearly showing how you don’t understand that I am not the only person who saw him as a raw player. It just blew right past you somehow even after being clearly explained multiple times.

AD had no real offensive game his first year. He got a ton of usage and was scoring on dunks and put backs. But you reference it like he was this complete player. He was not even close to what he is now. Which is what my point has been the entire time. These guys come into the league undersized and not having near the skill sets that they develop over time. That’s what raw is to me and to all the other coaches and pundits who also described him as such.Why would I go through a list that you just copied and pasted when you don’t even understand what people mean when they desrcribe a player as raw? It would be a complete waste of my time. You posted the list, you can break it all down however you want.

[OrlChamps2030]

No, I said I meant to type “almost always” and you quoted me acknowledging that, so I imagine you read it. I would hope so at least.

You still completely missed the argument I made. It blew right over your head so now you are reduced to just saying I’m casual.

I posted about his rookie numbers initially. You missed that as well.

You just mentioned his college accolades, which really don’t mean anything. I would imagine that someone who pretends to have NBA knowledge would already see the phallacy in this, but you missed that too.

Even better, you started this whole argument by posting a media link from CBS sports as your main piece of evidence, then finished your argument by telling me not to copy and paste quotes from the media and blindly follow them.

Talk about moving the goalposts. Before trying to act high and mighty, at least learn how to make a proper argument instead of moving the goalposts every time. The only thing that is casual and embarrassing is how you can’t seem to see what you are doing.

I only posted that article to form some kind of base for ranking elite players. You can use any form of ranking to find elite players that were raw. You can even use your own rankings, I don’t mind. I’ve already stated my opinion: Butler, Giannis, Draymond, Gobert were the only raw players coming in that turned out elite later. There must be a lot of names im missing if almost all elite players were raw coming in.

It’s funny how you continue to quadruple down on AD being raw coming in.. he put up 13/8/2/1/1 on 29 mpg with a PER >20 as a 19 year old rookie. That’s a sensational rookie season. Everyone knew he was a future superstar as a rook.

My goal posts remain the same.. provide names of raw players who became elite/stars/superstars..

Phallacy had me dead though.. Freudian slip?

Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

What has me dead is how you just make this a personal argument since my entire point was that the majority of players who become stars come into the league raw. I just took a top 3 player and showed that. AD was clearly going to be a star but he was very raw in his first year. This is simply a fundamental disagreement on what your belief of rare actually is versus mine. The only difference is literally everyone who talked about AD coming into the league said he would be a star but it would take time and he was a raw prospect . And that’s all I have been saying the whole time. This last post just shows you are not getting what I am saying and would rather just make it a personal thing instead.

AD had no real offensive game his first year. He got a ton of usage and was scoring on dunks and put backs. But you reference it like he was this complete player. He was not even close to what he is now. Which is what my point has been the entire time. These guys come into the league undersized and not having near the skill sets that they develop over time. That’s what raw is to me. What’s funny is I explained that every single time and you still can’t understand it.

Hm I guess we’ll have to just agree that we have different definitions of raw. If it matters, my definition of raw is not being able to stay on the floor due to lack of skill/lack of strength/lack of athleticism/etc.


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[SOUL]

Just imagine if we resigned Vuc next offseason lol

Then wed have two good centers. (assuming bamba pans out). Plus the whining and crying would rival Hillary supporters after the election.

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You're right, keeping Vuc as starting center the next 4 years would be almost as bad as Trump as president.

[j-ragg]

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Must be nice.

[SOUL]

I think Vucevic will be a huge help for Bamba though, for the time he is here. The staff and front office know that Bamba is the future and Clifford did point out that Bamba will still get a lot of playing time, so I'm hopeful about our "strategy" of bringing him along this year until proven otherwise. As long as there isn't some weird extension given to Vucevic and some huge minute disparity this year between him and Bamba, I'll be fine with how we bring him along.

I don't think Bamba will be as raw as some people think though.

[PennytoShaq]

Im not excited about more buddy ball but i know the end is around the corner. If Bamba can take a fast leap, it will be here before we know it.

Just knowing things are going to change and we are close to moving to a new era of magic basketball has me interested in watching the team this season.

[FFBlitzace]

Teams have just done a REALLY good job of gameplanning for Vuc the past 6 years.

[OrlandoDream]

I dont expect Vuc to start for very long. Going into year 7 of this is enough. The only consistent losing piece since the Dwight days has been Vuc. He is just not a good starting C. DO you really need to see more then 7 years worth of evidence? Bamba will be a starter depending on how the scoring load is kept up by AG, Tross, Fournier, and Isaac.

[MagicStarwipe]

Vuc has definitely been the best representative of our team culture the last few years. Soft, lazy, entitled, unwilling to sacrifice.

It would be nice to think that Clifford is just talking him up to boost his trade value, but I think that would be giving him too much credit.

Another eye bleedingly good season ahead.

[NickAnderson]

Vuc will always be better than Payton!!

[PrimeThyme]

Vuc will always be better than Payton!!

Those are some really really low standards you have for him.