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We're following the Spurs model

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Re: We're following the Spurs model 

Post#61 » by Skin » Tue Feb 3, 2015 10:05 pm

MasterGMer wrote:How is Aaron Gordon ever like Kahwai?? Dude is a 4... Comon guys... Gordon won't have the ball handling skills like Lenoard

Questioning Gordon's ball skills is sinful. You must repent.
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Re: We're following the Spurs model 

Post#62 » by MiltownHawkeye » Tue Feb 3, 2015 10:38 pm

The Spurs had a PG, SG, SF, PF, and C for all their championships. The Magic have a PG, SG, SF, PF, and C right now.

You can't question these similarities.
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Re: We're following the Spurs model 

Post#63 » by Skin » Tue Feb 3, 2015 11:34 pm

purpleswordfish wrote:Alex Martins has gone on the record as saying the Magic are trying to build something similar to the Spurs model. Obviously, some in our front office actually used to work there, so there's that angle. The word Martins kept using when talking about it around the time of Hennigan/Vaughn's hiring was "sustainability." If you're looking for that in the NBA, there's no better model than the Spurs. The problem is getting the pieces to do that. I firmly believe the Magic have some really good pieces right now, but they have a long way to go.

The Spurs also have a world class shooting coach and arguably the best coach in the league. We're not quite there yet, either.

Keep preachin'. Damn right, the Magic have some really good pieces that these Debbie Doubters wanna knock. It's gonna take time, but I feel like we are getting real close in terms of our talent acquisition. The talent development is the part that separates us from the contenders right now. It'll require faith and patience and I applaud you for not following the flock that talks as if the present state of our team is also the limit to their potential.
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Re: We're following the Spurs model 

Post#64 » by Skin » Tue Feb 3, 2015 11:45 pm

Cammo101 wrote:So all we need is a Tim Duncan? Simple enough.

This was never about the suggestion that we have our problems solved. It was a suggestion that we are following a model. If the attempts we make in following it fail, then so does our progress. I don't know if people are trying to get And'1 funny points or if the concept is really that hard to grasp.
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Re: We're following the Spurs model 

Post#65 » by Skin » Tue Feb 3, 2015 11:49 pm

majortom71 wrote:
Skin wrote:
majortom71 wrote:Elfrid Payton is not Tony Parker

In some ways they are.... but if that's your only critique then I must have been money with all the others! Baaaayum! :D


Actually I did not review all of them, quickly saw Elf being equated to Parker and commented.
I can say that this Magic team is not close to a Spurs model. To me it's wishful thinking.
I'll go back later when I have more time and review thoroughly and give a quick review of it if you like.

I think you mean this Magic team is not close to the Spurs success. I agree with that.

But if you think we had chances to replicate their model and we chose not to, which decisions do you think reflect that?
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Re: We're following the Spurs model 

Post#66 » by Bensational » Tue Feb 3, 2015 11:53 pm

i think you're looking too literally at the 'model' of the Spurs. apart from Duncan, Parker and Manu, most of their pieces have all changed over the past 16 years that they've been elite. the only thing sustainable about the Spurs is that they've had 3 stars they could build around, who have attracted players with the right attitude and ethic to join them and share a vision long enough to win a title. once they've done their 3, 4 or 5 years there, though, they all move on.

when the Magic went into rebuild, and Martins was likely to have made that comment, the two recent WCF teams were the Spurs and Thunder - both teams that Henny had ties to. that Spurs team was still a 3 man band, with solid supporting role players. not the team it is now, which has much more involvement from other players who aren't Timmy D, Parker or Manu.

i don't think this team is following any model as if it were a blueprint. not in terms of trying to recreate player roles. the only model we're trying to recreate is one of players that have good team attitudes who are prepared to sacrifice individual performances in order to chase a ring. otherwise, we're just trying to collect the best pieces we can get. if the chance to draft a Derrick Rose came along, Henny would take that. if the chance to draft a Durant came along, Henny would take that. Anthony Davis? Henny would take it.

now that we've thrown all the vets out, all our young guys are playing for themselves, trying to take the reigns. trying to make a case that they should be our franchise guy. we will need to pick one, at some point, and start forming an identity around that. and those who don't make the cut, will likely leave the team looking for bigger opportunities elsewhere.
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Re: We're following the Spurs model 

Post#67 » by MagicStarwipe » Tue Feb 3, 2015 11:57 pm

MasterGMer wrote:How is Aaron Gordon ever like Kahwai?? Dude is a 4... Comon guys... Gordon won't have the ball handling skills like Lenoard

Kawhi's handles were listed as a weakness coming out of college and he's worked to tighten them up. Gordon's handles were listed as a strength and he certainly appears to have a more advanced handle than Leonard.
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Re: We're following the Spurs model 

Post#68 » by Skin » Wed Feb 4, 2015 12:07 am

Neato wrote:I think the comparison approach here might be a little off. I don't think direct player mappings make much sense if we are trying to compare ourselves to the spurs. let me rephrase...i don't think direct player mappings make much sense if we need to make a big stretch to accommodate some of those comparisons.

we need to be comparing how our team functions at the team level in comparison to how the spurs functions at the team level. so it's probably better to talk about 1) how our players complement each other and 2) what kind of system we are running on both ends of the floor. I'm not sure we have much of a team identity yet to be making comparisons to any model, especially when comparing against a model that is designed around the concept of a team game. this is probably the reason I'm interested in seeing what a new coach would do.

Yes! I should've made a better effort to explain that it's not just about the players, but the kind of players that were assembled to make it all fit. The impressive thing about the Spurs model is how they can adjust to any match up. They have the players to be successful in their half court offense, the have the players to run an uptempo fast paced game, they have the ability to play small ball, tall ball and even stretch 4. But they wouldn't be able to do it if they didn't have a specific roles on the bench at their arsenal.

This is where saying a sweet shooting 3pt threat at PG like Mills is missing here. This is where saying Frye gives the ability to stretch the floor like Bonner does for the Spurs. This is where saying that Ben Gordon can have a similar impact to Danny Green when he starts shooting it unconsciously from 3 land. This is why I felt comfortable comparing tweener Harris to tweener Diaw because I believe he could provide that flexibility for us to match up well in small ball rotations... and provide an X factor type impact off the bench... even though they have different strengths and weaknesses.

Thank you for your comment as it provoked further positive discussion.
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Re: We're following the Spurs model 

Post#69 » by Skin » Wed Feb 4, 2015 12:29 am

Bensational wrote:i think you're looking too literally at the 'model' of the Spurs. apart from Duncan, Parker and Manu, most of their pieces have all changed over the past 16 years that they've been elite. the only thing sustainable about the Spurs is that they've had 3 stars they could build around, who have attracted players with the right attitude and ethic to join them and share a vision long enough to win a title. once they've done their 3, 4 or 5 years there, though, they all move on.

when the Magic went into rebuild, and Martins was likely to have made that comment, the two recent WCF teams were the Spurs and Thunder - both teams that Henny had ties to. that Spurs team was still a 3 man band, with solid supporting role players. not the team it is now, which has much more involvement from other players who aren't Timmy D, Parker or Manu.

i don't think this team is following any model as if it were a blueprint. not in terms of trying to recreate player roles. the only model we're trying to recreate is one of players that have good team attitudes who are prepared to sacrifice individual performances in order to chase a ring. otherwise, we're just trying to collect the best pieces we can get. if the chance to draft a Derrick Rose came along, Henny would take that. if the chance to draft a Durant came along, Henny would take that. Anthony Davis? Henny would take it.

now that we've thrown all the vets out, all our young guys are playing for themselves, trying to take the reigns. trying to make a case that they should be our franchise guy. we will need to pick one, at some point, and start forming an identity around that. and those who don't make the cut, will likely leave the team looking for bigger opportunities elsewhere.

I think you think I'm looking at it too literally. I'm really not. It might look that way because I was doing a complete write up of their key players matched up to what we have. But we clearly have a lot of other differences that make us unique... and they are way further down the line in their experience, talent development, cohesion, and coaching expertise than we are.

Saw one guy who didn't like the Vucevic to Splitter compare. That's fine. One is better on offense and the other on defense. I get that. But we have KOQ who I would say is another guy who we have that fits that mold. I can easily see the Spurs wanting Vuc or KOQ on their team because they fit what they like to do. Team oriented players who play hard, have no drama and respond to coaching.

That goes exactly along the lines with what you are saying about the model and culture we are trying to create here. I just personally feel like it's influenced by the Spurs model. If Henny goes out and trades one of our top young players for an All-Star (ie. Wiggins for Love) or goes all out spending like a MoFo in FA for a big named player (ie. Aldridge or Millsap) then I will admit our direction is not similar to the Spurs model.

But he had the chance to do that and we didn't. He could have chased for a young upcoming FA star when we had the need at the position, but he passed on Bledsoe for Payton. He passed on chasing for Love. Instead, he pawned off Afflalo for a young Fournier. That's why I can't believe we'll be big spenders in FA unless it's resigning our own guys. That is how the Spurs spend their money. Coincidence or strategy?
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Re: We're following the Spurs model 

Post#70 » by Bensational » Wed Feb 4, 2015 12:45 am

Skin wrote:That goes exactly along the lines with what you are saying about the model and culture we are trying to create here. I just personally feel like it's influenced by the Spurs model. If Henny goes out and trades one of our top young players for an All-Star (ie. Wiggins for Love) or goes all out spending like a MoFo in FA for a big named player (ie. Aldridge or Millsap) then I will admit our direction is not similar to the Spurs model.

But he had the chance to do that and we didn't. He could have chased for a young upcoming FA star when we had the need at the position, but he passed on Bledsoe for Payton. He passed on chasing for Love. Instead, he pawned off Afflalo for a young Fournier. That's why I can't believe we'll be big spenders in FA unless it's resigning our own guys. That is how the Spurs spend their money. Coincidence or strategy?


we were too early into the rebuild to make a splash in FA previously - and we may still be. you do that to add final pieces once you've found a young core, or at the very least one stud to build around. and just because we spend money on a bigger name doesn't meant they'll be excluded from buying into our culture. i doubt Henny would throw money at DMC, but you don't think he'd throw money at Durant?

we didn't need Bledsoe, because we'd just drafted a PG and we had high hopes for him. we needed to see where our young players were falling before we tried to fit expensive vets on top. but that doesn't mean we won't ever spend money. remember, we don't have Tim Duncan, and he's the linch pin in your design. so unless we luck out and draft him, we might be forced to sign a Tim Duncan, or make a big trade for one. otherwise we'll be hoping Parker, Manu and Splitter can lead us to a championship, and that's just not gonna happen.

also, i'd keep my eyes on the Spurs throwing a big offer at Marc Gasol this summer. he's the perfect guy to replace Duncan. and if that happens, your model won't really stand up.
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Re: We're following the Spurs model 

Post#71 » by Big A All Day » Wed Feb 4, 2015 12:58 am

I don't think anyone is doubting the fact that we're trying to emulate the spurs but I just don't think we're anywhere close. That's why I asked you where do u think we are in this process right now? And if u had to give us a grade what would it be? But u never answered those questions.

The fact of the matter is EVERYBODY should be trying to emulate these guys. They're the class of the league and a "small market team" 2 boot. They're the model for sustainable success but just saying "player A can be our version of Duncan. Player B can become manu one day" isn't going to cut it. Every single player/draft/signing would have to pan out perfectly and it's just not realistic for that to happen.

It's much better to just conclude we are who we are, the Orlando Magic, with alot of good young talent that may or may not pan out
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Re: We're following the Spurs model 

Post#72 » by Skin » Wed Feb 4, 2015 1:37 am

Big A All Day wrote:I don't think anyone is doubting the fact that we're trying to emulate the spurs but I just don't think we're anywhere close. That's why I asked you where do u think we are in this process right now? And if u had to give us a grade what would it be? But u never answered those questions.

The fact of the matter is EVERYBODY should be trying to emulate these guys. They're the class of the league and a "small market team" 2 boot. They're the model for sustainable success but just saying "player A can be our version of Duncan. Player B can become manu one day" isn't going to cut it. Every single player/draft/signing would have to pan out perfectly and it's just not realistic for that to happen.

It's much better to just conclude we are who we are, the Orlando Magic, with alot of good young talent that may or may not pan out

If we drafted Towns, then my expectations for next season would be playoffs...probably a 1st round exit but hopefully we put up a challenge. From then on out, I don't see why we wouldn't be a perennial playoff team for the next decade. As the team keeps it's cap in shape to be able to keep the same main guys around, then they will continue to get better and better because I fully believe that long term team cohesiveness can make up for gaps in pure talent.

So my POV of where we are in the process is close in terms of being a sustainable playoff contender. As for actually winning it all, that's a question that nobody can answer truthfully. The model is in place here, but even if you think everyone should be trying to copy them. It really isn't being done universally. This has been an era where teams are using cap space and trades to build Super Teams to find immediate success and circumvent the traditional long rebuild.
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Re: We're following the Spurs model 

Post#73 » by Skin » Wed Feb 4, 2015 1:49 am

Bensational wrote:
Skin wrote:That goes exactly along the lines with what you are saying about the model and culture we are trying to create here. I just personally feel like it's influenced by the Spurs model. If Henny goes out and trades one of our top young players for an All-Star (ie. Wiggins for Love) or goes all out spending like a MoFo in FA for a big named player (ie. Aldridge or Millsap) then I will admit our direction is not similar to the Spurs model.

But he had the chance to do that and we didn't. He could have chased for a young upcoming FA star when we had the need at the position, but he passed on Bledsoe for Payton. He passed on chasing for Love. Instead, he pawned off Afflalo for a young Fournier. That's why I can't believe we'll be big spenders in FA unless it's resigning our own guys. That is how the Spurs spend their money. Coincidence or strategy?


we were too early into the rebuild to make a splash in FA previously - and we may still be. you do that to add final pieces once you've found a young core, or at the very least one stud to build around. and just because we spend money on a bigger name doesn't meant they'll be excluded from buying into our culture. i doubt Henny would throw money at DMC, but you don't think he'd throw money at Durant?

we didn't need Bledsoe, because we'd just drafted a PG and we had high hopes for him. we needed to see where our young players were falling before we tried to fit expensive vets on top. but that doesn't mean we won't ever spend money. remember, we don't have Tim Duncan, and he's the linch pin in your design. so unless we luck out and draft him, we might be forced to sign a Tim Duncan, or make a big trade for one. otherwise we'll be hoping Parker, Manu and Splitter can lead us to a championship, and that's just not gonna happen.

also, i'd keep my eyes on the Spurs throwing a big offer at Marc Gasol this summer. he's the perfect guy to replace Duncan. and if that happens, your model won't really stand up.

I could see the Spurs signing Gasol but that wouldn't be relevant because a Post-Duncan era could require a reshift in strategy. What I'm talking about is their old/current model.

We could throw money at Durant and while I'm an optimist, I can't see him taking our offer. I just can't. We could've afforded Bledsoe and he was in fact a trade target at one time for Henny, but once we had the opportunity to draft a young promising guy, we pulled an exit strategy on the Bledsoe idea. We're going organic... saving cap space for our own development success stories.
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Re: We're following the Spurs model 

Post#74 » by Orlwillbeback » Wed Feb 4, 2015 2:13 am

Skin wrote:
Bensational wrote:
Skin wrote:That goes exactly along the lines with what you are saying about the model and culture we are trying to create here. I just personally feel like it's influenced by the Spurs model. If Henny goes out and trades one of our top young players for an All-Star (ie. Wiggins for Love) or goes all out spending like a MoFo in FA for a big named player (ie. Aldridge or Millsap) then I will admit our direction is not similar to the Spurs model.

But he had the chance to do that and we didn't. He could have chased for a young upcoming FA star when we had the need at the position, but he passed on Bledsoe for Payton. He passed on chasing for Love. Instead, he pawned off Afflalo for a young Fournier. That's why I can't believe we'll be big spenders in FA unless it's resigning our own guys. That is how the Spurs spend their money. Coincidence or strategy?


we were too early into the rebuild to make a splash in FA previously - and we may still be. you do that to add final pieces once you've found a young core, or at the very least one stud to build around. and just because we spend money on a bigger name doesn't meant they'll be excluded from buying into our culture. i doubt Henny would throw money at DMC, but you don't think he'd throw money at Durant?

we didn't need Bledsoe, because we'd just drafted a PG and we had high hopes for him. we needed to see where our young players were falling before we tried to fit expensive vets on top. but that doesn't mean we won't ever spend money. remember, we don't have Tim Duncan, and he's the linch pin in your design. so unless we luck out and draft him, we might be forced to sign a Tim Duncan, or make a big trade for one. otherwise we'll be hoping Parker, Manu and Splitter can lead us to a championship, and that's just not gonna happen.

also, i'd keep my eyes on the Spurs throwing a big offer at Marc Gasol this summer. he's the perfect guy to replace Duncan. and if that happens, your model won't really stand up.

I could see the Spurs signing Gasol but that wouldn't be relevant because a Post-Duncan era could require a reshift in strategy. What I'm talking about is their old/current model.

We could throw money at Durant and while I'm an optimist, I can't see him taking our offer. I just can't. We could've afforded Bledsoe and he was in fact a trade target at one time for Henny, but once we had the opportunity to draft a young promising guy, we pulled an exit strategy on the Bledsoe idea. We're going organic... saving cap space for our own development success stories.



Yes, thank GOD we didnt get bledsoe.....lol
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Re: We're following the Spurs model 

Post#75 » by Bensational » Wed Feb 4, 2015 3:28 am

Skin wrote:also, i'd keep my eyes on the Spurs throwing a big offer at Marc Gasol this summer. he's the perfect guy to replace Duncan. and if that happens, your model won't really stand up.

I could see the Spurs signing Gasol but that wouldn't be relevant because a Post-Duncan era could require a reshift in strategy. What I'm talking about is their old/current model.

We could throw money at Durant and while I'm an optimist, I can't see him taking our offer. I just can't. We could've afforded Bledsoe and he was in fact a trade target at one time for Henny, but once we had the opportunity to draft a young promising guy, we pulled an exit strategy on the Bledsoe idea. We're going organic... saving cap space for our own development success stories.[/quote]

you are taking a very firm stance on something which is so fluid.

i think you could've saved us all a lot of time just by saying "i don't think we're going to sign or trade for any significant players". it's got nothing to do with a model, particularly one that will match up through comparisons. for starters, unless we draft Tim Duncan 2.0, we'll be most likely looking at A.Gordon, Dipo or Payton becoming our franchise player. that, then, becomes a completely different model, and the only thing it shares in common with SAS is that the players are high character and team oriented. that's the only common element. the makeup and performance is, currently, very different.

just because we didn't offer a deal on Bledsoe it makes zero difference on what we'll do in the future, once we know exactly what we're working with. we dropped $8M a season on a washed up 3pt shooting PF, does that mean we're gonna do the same every offseason going forwards?
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Re: We're following the Spurs model 

Post#76 » by majortom71 » Wed Feb 4, 2015 5:52 am

Skin wrote:And we're almost there!

Since Henny got here, he's been talking about sustainability, step by step and growing this organically. The Spurs have been the model for that philosophy and being a former Spurs guy, it's not hard to see why we would try to replicate their success.

It was clear when his first coaching hire was a Popovich disciple, but I couldn't help but notice how close the player comparisons have become over the years. Now, I've never believed in exactness in player comparisons, so don't try to go beyond level of reason in any disagreement you may have in these comparisons. But this is how I see it and feel free to share your thoughts.

JV the "Popovich disciple" will be fired soon, probably by the Lakers game. He has lost the team and it's clear that the players are all confused on the floor in recent games. He literally is trying to make things work by mixing lineups, it's a shot in the dark approach.

Skin wrote:Elfrid Payton = Tony Parker

Stregths in ball handling, passing and close range scoring efficiency. Payton is a better defender and Parker is a better shooter, but they both share the most important characteristics needed for the position.

Payton has a long way to go to be compared to Parker, he is closer to Rondo or I should say a Rondo with worse shooting (poor man's Rondo). If he improves we can call him a Rondo and if he keeps improving significantly we can bring up Parker's name, but let's not jump the gun.

Skin wrote:Victor Oladipo = Manu Ginobili

These 2 crazy guards are maniacs in their playing styles and good scorers. Great attacking the basket, either finishing in style or getting to the line. Not really known as 3 point marksmen, but definitely having that tool in the toolset. Hard work ethic. Willing to take the gamble on big shots.

I don't even see it. Manu is a very skilled player while Victor is more athletic. Dipo is closer to a Wade type player, of course he would need to significantly improve to be compared to Wade.

Skin wrote:Aaron Gordon = Kawhi Leonard

Long, explosive wings who came into the league bringing defense, but needing to improve or prove they could be reliable shooters. Possess strong athletic frames that can be asked to guard opposing team's top wing scorer. I think Henny was hoping Harkless would fill this role, but that hasn't panned out.

I don't see it. Again, let's not jump the gun. Aaron is a long term project for Magic, I actually think his ceiling will be far higher than Kawhi is. I see him becoming a better defender too, but right now he is not close to him.

Skin wrote:? = Tim Duncan
I don't forget the poor man Duncan comparisons that Andrew Nicholson used to get. Both have always moved like old men, but were slick big men shooters. AN showed promise with his back to the basket, but his defense has kept him on the pine. We saw Henny's attempt, but alas it remains to be the key missing piece for the Magic at this stage of their rebuild. Who will fill those shoes? Karl Towns is my best guess at the moment. People may be ham hawing at JV, but he's putting us in position to finally fill this spot with a high lottery pick.

No one in the next draft is close to Duncan. Might be other future drafts but not this one.

Skin wrote:Nikola Vucevic = Tiago Splitter

These international big men may not be perfect, but they are really good at being quiet and effective team players. Vucci Mane is clearly superior, but what I see here is that the Spurs have been able to win with a lesser player in Splitter at Center. If they can do it with Splitter, we can do it with Vucevic even though his defense gets a lot of negative attention.

Nikola is a great scoring big with range and great at rebounding. He is much better offensively obviously, while Tiago is a better rim protector. I am not even sure why you thought they were alike.

KEY BENCH PLAYERS

Skin wrote:Evan Fournier = Marco Bellinelli

Yes, Evan opened people's eye with a hot streak in the beginning of the season, but we don't necessarily need him to put up 18ppg on a nightly basis. 9-12 ppg with high efficiencies and intelligent play are the key here. Fournier and Bellinelli can spread the floor with their 3pt shooting, keep the ball and drive or make the correct pass. Jack of all trades, master of none describe the players here. Having a guy that can fill this role and be a team player is a key ingredient to success, especially in the playoffs. Bellinelli earns roughly $3M per year. I expect Fournier to earn a similar amount, which based on a curve with the new TV contracts, should be around the $5-7M per year range.

If anyone can be a Manu type player it would be Evan, he has that Euro style play but he needs to significantly improve and understand his role. Recently he's been playing poorly.

Skin wrote:Tobias Harris = Boris Diaw

I'm not selling Harris short. He's obviously more valued for a reason, but skillset wise, they have a lot in common. There were legitimate times last year where Diaw looked like the playoffs MVP for the Spurs. Making big baskets or grabbing a key rebound, he was instrumental in the Spurs success. A journeyman tweener before Popovich figured out how to use him best. The difference here is the individual vs team dynamic. It will be difficult for Harris to embrace a role off the bench after emerging as a leading scorer. But with his defensive concerns at the SF spot, yet the surprising ability to make occasional defensive stops at the PF spot, being a lead bench guy is probably Harris' best fit if he's on a real contender. If forced to be a lead starter, I feel like his team would struggle to be a legit contender. There are plenty of minutes to keep him as a core rotational player, but will he accept the diminished price tag? Thus, the debate on what to do with him exists.

Tobes = Melo lite, he is great at scoring but nothing compared to Melo. He is also struggling and needs to bounce back to his winning ways.

Skin wrote:Do you see what I see? Old news? New news? Completely disagree? Can we get there? Other thoughts?

I see wishful thinking. This team will have it's own identity. I am not worried about the players, but I do worry about who the coach is and who it will be. They need a good coach to get this team playing great ball together and develop the youth.
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Re: We're following the Spurs model 

Post#77 » by BadMofoPimp » Wed Feb 4, 2015 1:33 pm

Anyone can take any team in the NBA and rationalize how they took the Spurs route just by looking at the players. Every team has fans who can rationalize their players to Spurs players on any team. GM's most of the time have to take the best player available that they CAN get so they really can't follow any model to a "T".
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Re: We're following the Spurs model 

Post#78 » by Skin » Thu Feb 5, 2015 6:27 pm

BadMofoPimp wrote:Anyone can take any team in the NBA and rationalize how they took the Spurs route just by looking at the players. Every team has fans who can rationalize their players to Spurs players on any team. GM's most of the time have to take the best player available that they CAN get so they really can't follow any model to a "T".

I have emphasized that. You're regurgitating my own point. I don't know why you guys are so hung up on the side by side player comparisons. It's missing the point ENTIRELY. It was an exercise to show what TYPE of player we were looking for. Players who fit specific role types. You can't just fit any combination of roles and make it work.

I was also emphasizing HOW they were built. ORGANICALLY. You can't say every team follows that method. Miami bought theirs. Dallas had an amazing 1 man show. Boston traded for theirs. LA stole Pau. Detroit was a mix bag. Of all of those teams, the one that had the most longevity is the Spurs model. This is the model that I'm trying to say we are trying to follow. It might take while to get there, but once we have our young players in place and we have the right set of complimentary players around them, I believe we can win as a complete team even if our guys don't end up being in the Top 5 at their positions.
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Re: We're following the Spurs model 

Post#79 » by Skin » Thu Feb 5, 2015 6:59 pm

majortom71 wrote:
Skin wrote:And we're almost there!

Since Henny got here, he's been talking about sustainability, step by step and growing this organically. The Spurs have been the model for that philosophy and being a former Spurs guy, it's not hard to see why we would try to replicate their success.

It was clear when his first coaching hire was a Popovich disciple, but I couldn't help but notice how close the player comparisons have become over the years. Now, I've never believed in exactness in player comparisons, so don't try to go beyond level of reason in any disagreement you may have in these comparisons. But this is how I see it and feel free to share your thoughts.

JV the "Popovich disciple" will be fired soon, probably by the Lakers game. He has lost the team and it's clear that the players are all confused on the floor in recent games. He literally is trying to make things work by mixing lineups, it's a shot in the dark approach.

Skin wrote:Elfrid Payton = Tony Parker

Stregths in ball handling, passing and close range scoring efficiency. Payton is a better defender and Parker is a better shooter, but they both share the most important characteristics needed for the position.

Payton has a long way to go to be compared to Parker, he is closer to Rondo or I should say a Rondo with worse shooting (poor man's Rondo). If he improves we can call him a Rondo and if he keeps improving significantly we can bring up Parker's name, but let's not jump the gun.

Skin wrote:Victor Oladipo = Manu Ginobili

These 2 crazy guards are maniacs in their playing styles and good scorers. Great attacking the basket, either finishing in style or getting to the line. Not really known as 3 point marksmen, but definitely having that tool in the toolset. Hard work ethic. Willing to take the gamble on big shots.

I don't even see it. Manu is a very skilled player while Victor is more athletic. Dipo is closer to a Wade type player, of course he would need to significantly improve to be compared to Wade.

Skin wrote:Aaron Gordon = Kawhi Leonard

Long, explosive wings who came into the league bringing defense, but needing to improve or prove they could be reliable shooters. Possess strong athletic frames that can be asked to guard opposing team's top wing scorer. I think Henny was hoping Harkless would fill this role, but that hasn't panned out.

I don't see it. Again, let's not jump the gun. Aaron is a long term project for Magic, I actually think his ceiling will be far higher than Kawhi is. I see him becoming a better defender too, but right now he is not close to him.

Skin wrote:? = Tim Duncan
I don't forget the poor man Duncan comparisons that Andrew Nicholson used to get. Both have always moved like old men, but were slick big men shooters. AN showed promise with his back to the basket, but his defense has kept him on the pine. We saw Henny's attempt, but alas it remains to be the key missing piece for the Magic at this stage of their rebuild. Who will fill those shoes? Karl Towns is my best guess at the moment. People may be ham hawing at JV, but he's putting us in position to finally fill this spot with a high lottery pick.

No one in the next draft is close to Duncan. Might be other future drafts but not this one.

Skin wrote:Nikola Vucevic = Tiago Splitter

These international big men may not be perfect, but they are really good at being quiet and effective team players. Vucci Mane is clearly superior, but what I see here is that the Spurs have been able to win with a lesser player in Splitter at Center. If they can do it with Splitter, we can do it with Vucevic even though his defense gets a lot of negative attention.

Nikola is a great scoring big with range and great at rebounding. He is much better offensively obviously, while Tiago is a better rim protector. I am not even sure why you thought they were alike.

KEY BENCH PLAYERS

Skin wrote:Evan Fournier = Marco Bellinelli

Yes, Evan opened people's eye with a hot streak in the beginning of the season, but we don't necessarily need him to put up 18ppg on a nightly basis. 9-12 ppg with high efficiencies and intelligent play are the key here. Fournier and Bellinelli can spread the floor with their 3pt shooting, keep the ball and drive or make the correct pass. Jack of all trades, master of none describe the players here. Having a guy that can fill this role and be a team player is a key ingredient to success, especially in the playoffs. Bellinelli earns roughly $3M per year. I expect Fournier to earn a similar amount, which based on a curve with the new TV contracts, should be around the $5-7M per year range.

If anyone can be a Manu type player it would be Evan, he has that Euro style play but he needs to significantly improve and understand his role. Recently he's been playing poorly.

Skin wrote:Tobias Harris = Boris Diaw

I'm not selling Harris short. He's obviously more valued for a reason, but skillset wise, they have a lot in common. There were legitimate times last year where Diaw looked like the playoffs MVP for the Spurs. Making big baskets or grabbing a key rebound, he was instrumental in the Spurs success. A journeyman tweener before Popovich figured out how to use him best. The difference here is the individual vs team dynamic. It will be difficult for Harris to embrace a role off the bench after emerging as a leading scorer. But with his defensive concerns at the SF spot, yet the surprising ability to make occasional defensive stops at the PF spot, being a lead bench guy is probably Harris' best fit if he's on a real contender. If forced to be a lead starter, I feel like his team would struggle to be a legit contender. There are plenty of minutes to keep him as a core rotational player, but will he accept the diminished price tag? Thus, the debate on what to do with him exists.

Tobes = Melo lite, he is great at scoring but nothing compared to Melo. He is also struggling and needs to bounce back to his winning ways.

Skin wrote:Do you see what I see? Old news? New news? Completely disagree? Can we get there? Other thoughts?

I see wishful thinking. This team will have it's own identity. I am not worried about the players, but I do worry about who the coach is and who it will be. They need a good coach to get this team playing great ball together and develop the youth.

You spent a lot of effort here, yet you missed the entire point.

This was never about Player A = Player B. I told you that from that start, but you did it anyways. :roll: I could've gone around the league and found better side by side comparisons for our players, but it never was about that. It was looking at how the kind of talent they built their team with and seeing where Henny might be following suit with the decisions he made in choosing what types of players he wanted to bring in.

I thought we were going to have conversations about him choosing Payton over Smart and Exum because he was a "closer" match to Parker. But people went off the deep end thinking I meant "exact" matches. :crazy:

Or maybe explain why we traded for Fournier being similar to Bellinelli.... signing Gordon as a 3pt specialist ala Green or Brent Barry in the past. Frye flashing traits that Bonner or Horry did.

etc etc etc

This really was supposed to be more light hearted, and I started my earlier responses off that way (even taking shots at myself) so I dunno bro.
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Re: We're following the Spurs model 

Post#80 » by Bensational » Thu Feb 5, 2015 8:00 pm

Dude, you say all these people "missed the point" because of the player comparisons, but they take up 90% of your post. So, what you mean is 90% of your post is irrelevant crap, right?

Maybe you should go back and edit that OP so it is more straight to the point?

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