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In his 12 prior seasons as an NBA head coach, Scott Skiles coached teams ranked in the top 50% of offenses in the NBA on only one -- ONE -- occasion. 11 out of 12 times -- his offenses have been worse than average. In fact, in 9 of those 12 seasons, his team's offense was one of the worst 8 in the league. This season is proving to be no exception as the Magic once again rank in the bottom 3rd of the league in offense.

Certainly one of the excuses that I have heard for that is that our young players have failed to develop as expected or have performed poorly. I have heard a lot of talk of late about EP's failure to develop and Dipo's regression this year and the need for us to bring in "better" players at their position in order to achieve more success in the future. Certainly, one player whose numbers dipped significantly this year was Tobias Harris. On the Magic, his 3 pt shooting dipped to .311 this year and his scoring dipped to only 13.7 ppg. Interestingly, albeit in a limited sample size of 6 games, those numbers have turned completely around in Detroit. Tobias is shooting 43% from 3 and is back to averaging 17 points per game. Again, its a limited sample size but it will be interesting to see how that plays out over the remainder of the year and into the future.

In light of this I think it is a reasonable question to ask whether Skiles offense has a chance to succeed in the NBA. My concern is not just that our team will struggle mightily offensively (as have teams in 12 of his 13 NBA seasons). Rather, my concern is that we will utilize the performance of our young guards in his offense as a litmus test for their value without accounting for what would appear to be the inherently diminished opportunity they have to succeed under Skiles.

The jury is still out on Payton and Dipo and perhaps neither of them will be able to harness the potential that we have seen flashes of on occasions throughout their first few years in the league. However, how painful would it be to have one or both of them traded away in the off-season to see them succeed under a coaching staff with a competent offensive philosophy...

Last season we were a bottom five team with the #25 ranked offense (by points per game).

This year we have already won more games and hold the #21 ranked offense (by points per game) despite changing nothing but the coach prior to the trade deadline.

The team is trending up despite few changes on the roster. This means the player development so many of you deny is in fact taking place. We also have an incredible amount of flexibility this summer to make major changes.

The problem is simple. The problem is that we are not yet finished rebuilding. True, the tank is over but the rebuilding process has at least another year in it. This really isn't a problem at all which is why Skiles should not and will not be fired any time soon. I only call it a problem due to the impatience of our fan base.

No Scott is not the problem. We have perimeters players that could some day be consistent offensive threats but not yet.

NBlue wrote:In his 12 prior seasons as an NBA head coach, Scott Skiles coached teams ranked in the top 50% of offenses in the NBA on only one -- ONE -- occasion. 11 out of 12 times -- his offenses have been worse than average. In fact, in 9 of those 12 seasons, his team's offense was one of the worst 8 in the league. This season is proving to be no exception as the Magic once again rank in the bottom 3rd of the league in offense.

Certainly one of the excuses that I have heard for that is that our young players have failed to develop as expected or have performed poorly. I have heard a lot of talk of late about EP's failure to develop and Dipo's regression this year and the need for us to bring in "better" players at their position in order to achieve more success in the future. Certainly, one player whose numbers dipped significantly this year was Tobias Harris. On the Magic, his 3 pt shooting dipped to .311 this year and his scoring dipped to only 13.7 ppg. Interestingly, albeit in a limited sample size of 6 games, those numbers have turned completely around in Detroit. Tobias is shooting 43% from 3 and is back to averaging 17 points per game. Again, its a limited sample size but it will be interesting to see how that plays out over the remainder of the year and into the future.

In light of this I think it is a reasonable question to ask whether Skiles offense has a chance to succeed in the NBA. My concern is not just that our team will struggle mightily offensively (as have teams in 12 of his 13 NBA seasons). Rather, my concern is that we will utilize the performance of our young guards in his offense as a litmus test for their value without accounting for what would appear to be the inherently diminished opportunity they have to succeed under Skiles.

The jury is still out on Payton and Dipo and perhaps neither of them will be able to harness the potential that we have seen flashes of on occasions throughout their first few years in the league. However, how painful would it be to have one or both of them traded away in the off-season to see them succeed under a coaching staff with a competent offensive philosophy...

Is there a long list of players that went on to thrive elsewhere after they left Skiles and become superstars or all-stars?

MagicFan101 wrote:Last season we were a bottom five team with the #25 ranked offense (by points per game).

This year we have already won more games and hold the #21 ranked offense (by points per game) despite changing nothing but the coach prior to the trade deadline.

The team is trending up despite few changes on the roster. This means the player development so many of you deny is in fact taking place. We also have an incredible amount of flexibility this summer to make major changes.

The problem is simple. The problem is that we are not yet finished rebuilding. True, the tank is over but the rebuilding process has at least another year in it. This really isn't a problem at all which is why Skiles should not and will not be fired any time soon. I only call it a problem due to the impatience of our fan base.

Victor's numbers are the same or worse in every offensive meaningful category. Same was true for Tobias. Although EP has improved his 3pt shooting significantly he has clearly struggled to run the offense and his PER and AST% have slightly worsened from last year.

Clearly, we are a far more competent team on the defensive end and are in the top half of the NBA teams in this area. Skiles teams have consistently improved and played well defensively but have struggled mightily on offense. I would attribute our slight improvement more to the defensive side and at least a coach who is not entirely incompetent more than anything else.

It's a false premise - two things can simultaneously be true. The rebuild isn't complete AND Skiles is an average to below average coach.

flying_mollusk wrote:

NBlue wrote:In his 12 prior seasons as an NBA head coach, Scott Skiles coached teams ranked in the top 50% of offenses in the NBA on only one -- ONE -- occasion. 11 out of 12 times -- his offenses have been worse than average. In fact, in 9 of those 12 seasons, his team's offense was one of the worst 8 in the league. This season is proving to be no exception as the Magic once again rank in the bottom 3rd of the league in offense.

Certainly one of the excuses that I have heard for that is that our young players have failed to develop as expected or have performed poorly. I have heard a lot of talk of late about EP's failure to develop and Dipo's regression this year and the need for us to bring in "better" players at their position in order to achieve more success in the future. Certainly, one player whose numbers dipped significantly this year was Tobias Harris. On the Magic, his 3 pt shooting dipped to .311 this year and his scoring dipped to only 13.7 ppg. Interestingly, albeit in a limited sample size of 6 games, those numbers have turned completely around in Detroit. Tobias is shooting 43% from 3 and is back to averaging 17 points per game. Again, its a limited sample size but it will be interesting to see how that plays out over the remainder of the year and into the future.

In light of this I think it is a reasonable question to ask whether Skiles offense has a chance to succeed in the NBA. My concern is not just that our team will struggle mightily offensively (as have teams in 12 of his 13 NBA seasons). Rather, my concern is that we will utilize the performance of our young guards in his offense as a litmus test for their value without accounting for what would appear to be the inherently diminished opportunity they have to succeed under Skiles.

The jury is still out on Payton and Dipo and perhaps neither of them will be able to harness the potential that we have seen flashes of on occasions throughout their first few years in the league. However, how painful would it be to have one or both of them traded away in the off-season to see them succeed under a coaching staff with a competent offensive philosophy...

Is there a long list of players that went on to thrive elsewhere after they left Skiles and become superstars or all-stars?

I think there is a difference between asserting that the Skiles offense marginally hampers player performance as opposed to saying Michael Jordan would have never amounted to anything if he played for Skiles. AG is probably the player on our roster that has the most superstar potential and he is clearly developing and even thriving (though one could argue whether that is because of our despite Skiles).

I suppose you could point to Joe Johnson and Amare Stoudemire as players who became allstars after Skiles left but he had them both very young and very briefly and I don't think that's very fair to Skiles. Its tough because he is at a job just a few years and then gets fired so its tough to make the analysis. I would guess the best example would be Michael Redd -- whose numbers dropped subtantially under Skiles. Although certainly not a superstar, Redd was an allstar who seemed to get worse each year under the Skiles offense. Of course, injuries played a large part in that -- but Redd was clearly better in the previous years.

It is true that Skiles is not an offensive guru but how many of you expected that of him? Please answer honestly so I know you aren't worth a debate.

As a second point, Vuc is our only truly offensively gifted player. After that, we lack consistent playmakers and that included Tobias.

How many coaches can take a team of young, inexperienced athletes who lack great offensive instincts and turn them into a high powered team in half a season? None. So I don't care about our offense.

The team defense is improving. The team chemistry is improving. We are shedding the fat off the roster and clearing space for big moves.

Be patient people.

MagicFan101 wrote:It is true that Skiles is not an offensive guru but how many of you expected that of him? Please answer honestly so I know you aren't worth a debate.

As a second point, Vuc is our only truly offensively gifted player. After that, we lack consistent playmakers and that included Tobias.

How many coaches can take a team of young, inexperienced athletes who lack great offensive instincts and turn them into a high powered team in half a season? None. So I don't care about our offense.

The team defense is improving. The team chemistry is improving. We are shedding the fat off the roster and clearing space for big moves.

Be patient people.

Well said. We do have to be patient. Moves are yet to be done and there is a chance one of the young players we have drafted in since the rebuild will be traded at some point. Add the possibility to free agency.

With that said, we need to be more patient with Elfrid. He has shown he is capable of having big time games and that means something. If he was a guy that has hardly shown us anything then fine but he has shown he is more than capable. Same with Dipo, he still has to continue developing and next year being his 4th year its where I feel we will see if he turns the corner or stays about the same.

Offense is fine, we scored 130 points. The issue is that guys aren't defending well. We cant let the freaking Sixers score over 100 points on us.

As soon as our players are good, the coach will not be the issue. duh.

Skin wrote:As soon as our players are good, the coach will not be the issue. duh.

I'm pretty sure you're kidding to some degree, but this isn't far from the truth in the NBA. More so than any other professional team sport, this is a star driven league. One super star makes more of a difference than any coach could. We don't have that guy.

Someone explain to me how it's Skiles fault when these guys go ice cold and miss wide open shots at some point every game...

Literally wide open bricks.

MagicFan101 wrote:It is true that Skiles is not an offensive guru but how many of you expected that of him? Please answer honestly so I know you aren't worth a debate.

As a second point, Vuc is our only truly offensively gifted player. After that, we lack consistent playmakers and that included Tobias.

How many coaches can take a team of young, inexperienced athletes who lack great offensive instincts and turn them into a high powered team in half a season? None. So I don't care about our offense.

The team defense is improving. The team chemistry is improving. We are shedding the fat off the roster and clearing space for big moves.

Be patient people.

I certainly did not (and do not) expect that of him. As I noted, he's been in the bottom half of the league 12 of 13 years he has coached and in the bottom 8 teams in the league the vast majority of those. His track record suggests he is a poor offensive coach and I find that to be true. The fact we scored 130 points against the Sixers doesn't suddenly make us a good offensive team -- we remain in the lower third of the league. The fact that I did not expect him to be a good offensive coach does not immunize him from criticism on that front. I don't understand your point on this?

I would agree with you that the team defense has improved this year and that is what I expected. Skiles has consistently proven himself to be a solid defensive coach. As to the chemistry -- I don't see that Skiles has done anything to improve that. I think we do have good team chemistry (as we had before Skiles arrival) and I don't see that he has done anything to improve that (though he hasn't made it worse either).

It is precisely those "big moves" that I am concerned about. I like our young nucleus. I think that they will organically progress if given the right coaching. I'm very concerned about the possibility the Martins/Skiles wing of the franchise will trade them away in the off-season for a mediocre player. Sure, I'd be happy if they brought in a Horford level player but -- my concerns is that EP, Tobias and Vic all either got worse or stayed the same offensively this year under Skiles -- that is not a good sign.

Tron Carter- wrote:Someone explain to me how it's Skiles fault when these guys go ice cold and miss wide open shots at some point every game...

Literally wide open bricks.

Nobody hits every shot they take. The purpose of an offensive scheme is to use whatever means you have at your disposal to put players in positions to take high percentage shots consistently. The complicating factor is that different players have different shots that they can hit consistently. An offensive system should not be static, but should adapt to the personnel on both teams. Brad Stevens is exceptional at this. It is on each player to develop his own repertoire, but it is on the coach to utilize his players' different skill sets.

Tron Carter- wrote:Someone explain to me how it's Skiles fault when these guys go ice cold and miss wide open shots at some point every game...

Literally wide open bricks.

It's not particularly complicated. Different coaches have different offensive philosophies and different offensive systems. Under Mark Jackson, the Warriors were an above average offensive squad -- under Kerr they are an offensive juggernaut.

Likewise, Tobias Harris was far more successful on offense last year (and this year under SVG in a very limited sample size) than he has been under Skiles.

I don't think there is any question that our team does not have a lot of polished offensive stars. But that doesn't mean that a coach who is good at coaching offense in the NBA would not be able to improve them.

NBlue wrote:

Tron Carter- wrote:Someone explain to me how it's Skiles fault when these guys go ice cold and miss wide open shots at some point every game...

Literally wide open bricks.

It's not particularly complicated. Different coaches have different offensive philosophies and different offensive systems. Under Mark Jackson, the Warriors were an above average offensive squad -- under Kerr they are an offensive juggernaut.

Likewise, Tobias Harris was far more successful on offense last year (and this year under SVG in a very limited sample size) than he has been under Skiles.

I don't think there is any question that our team does not have a lot of polished offensive stars. But that doesn't mean that a coach who is good at coaching offense in the NBA would not be able to improve them.

Kerr's Warriors are also a lot more experienced now...

Gotta take age into consideration. Skiles is working with youngsters.

Also your Tobias example is awful.

NBlue wrote:

MagicFan101 wrote:It is true that Skiles is not an offensive guru but how many of you expected that of him? Please answer honestly so I know you aren't worth a debate.

As a second point, Vuc is our only truly offensively gifted player. After that, we lack consistent playmakers and that included Tobias.

How many coaches can take a team of young, inexperienced athletes who lack great offensive instincts and turn them into a high powered team in half a season? None. So I don't care about our offense.

The team defense is improving. The team chemistry is improving. We are shedding the fat off the roster and clearing space for big moves.

Be patient people.

I certainly did not (and do not) expect that of him. As I noted, he's been in the bottom half of the league 12 of 13 years he has coached and in the bottom 8 teams in the league the vast majority of those. His track record suggests he is a poor offensive coach and I find that to be true. The fact we scored 130 points against the Sixers doesn't suddenly make us a good offensive team -- we remain in the lower third of the league. The fact that I did not expect him to be a good offensive coach does not immunize him from criticism on that front. I don't understand your point on this?

I would agree with you that the team defense has improved this year and that is what I expected. Skiles has consistently proven himself to be a solid defensive coach. As to the chemistry -- I don't see that Skiles has done anything to improve that. I think we do have good team chemistry (as we had before Skiles arrival) and I don't see that he has done anything to improve that (though he hasn't made it worse either).

It is precisely those "big moves" that I am concerned about. I like our young nucleus. I think that they will organically progress if given the right coaching. I'm very concerned about the possibility the Martins/Skiles wing of the franchise will trade them away in the off-season for a mediocre player. Sure, I'd be happy if they brought in a Horford level player but -- my concerns is that EP, Tobias and Vic all either got worse or stayed the same offensively this year under Skiles -- that is not a good sign.

Is it Skiles fault that they are not progressing offensively or is it their own natural limitations ?! For Harris I think it was more about fit with the rest of the roster more than anything . EP I think just has issues with shooting and keeping his energy up , both things are outside any coaches control and as for dipo it is HIS mentality and thinking he needs to be the go to player . Ironically our offense usually only stalls when our players go away from
The system Skiles has in place and when they stop moving the ball . When we are playing with pace and ball movement our offense actually looks quite good tbh . I think that we just need to be patient with our players and our coach.

Yes.

He is a dik and players will tune him out by the next midseason.