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I was just wondering what people thoughts were in regards to the teams apparent current direction and intentions compared with what we've been fed for the last 4 years?

When the rebuilding project and Hennigan era started 4 years ago, all the sound bytes coming from Henny, Alex Martins and the front office in general were that the goal was to "Win a championship". It was all about a championship. They were quite brash about it and forthright about their long term intentions. They fell short of putting a time scale on it (understandably), but each new season and each new coach hire that has passed, the message has always been the same. "We want to win a championship!" The term "building a championship culture" has been used frequently during the process and has always been the core message being delivered from the top brass.

However......

Is it me or do the goalposts seem to have moved in the last 12 months?

Although i'm sure everybody still craves and desires that illusive championship, that no longer seems to be the outward message. not publicly anyway. What is public though, is the goal and necessity to reach the play offs. Frank Vogel has said it, Hennigan has said it, and it now seems to be the team mantra and measuring stick that the 2016/17 Orlando Magic must make the play offs.

Everybody is tired of all the losing and the 4th year of the rebuild saw only marginal improvement. So much so Skiles was pushed (or jumped).

So the decision and direction seemed set. Play offs or bust! Win now! The thing is, as has been discussed at length on this board and across all Media outlets, the direction of this team now seems to have been muddied slightly by the moves made this summer.
I'm not going to repeat what we've all heard so much of the last couple of weeks, but can we honestly say that the moves we have made got us closer to that title that seemed to be everybodys goal? Or have we just improved our chances of a post season appearance? I understand you have to have one for the other, but we still fell a long way off the goal that was so vocally touted for so long, and now we've made the moves (somewhat riskily) to achieve a more realistic but short term goal that is being publicly touted.

We've certainly improved our team on last year. Nobody doubts that. But everyone also see's the questions and problems that the currently assembled roster presents.

We've been proactive and aggressive as promised. Are there risky and questionable moves? Absolutely! Ibaka could bolt after one year, and we've a lot of money invested in Biyambo as we know. What his role will look like is a mystery at the moment.
But after towing the line with a young promising core that we were hoping to develop but never really came, we now see Harris gone, Oladipo gone and a potential scenario where Vucevic is gone. And we still don't have that player or players that we can likely build around to get to that championship level.

I just worry that our immediate future prospects and dreams have changed due to poor management/performance and although nobody expected to be challenging for honours with 4 years of the 'Dwightmare', are really any further on going in to year 5 than we were at the start? with lots of questions and hopes that young players may or may not fulfil?

This year, success is deemed a play off appearance! So then what? A post series victory? Then what? Conference final?

It looks like to me that we are still very much in rebuild mode, if not right at the start of another!!!!

Need to reach the playoffs, before we even talk about championship.

The approach we've taken this summer in particular does worry me a bit. We've obviously hit the fast forward button on the rebuild but that could very well mean we can be a treadmill team ala Atl or Memphis

fendilim wrote:Need to reach the playoffs, before we even talk about championship.

Understand that of course. Just wondered if the goals of the team building is merely to reach the playoffs?

When this all started we were assembling assets and talent in order to build a championship core and culture. It seems though that has been disbanded and abandoned in favour of just making the playoffs.

We didn't get the lottery balls to go the way we were hoping so we don't have the luxury of drafting a bonafide star at the moment. So now we got to make the team competitive to make the team more attractive to established players and stars via free agency and trades. We needed to become tougher for people to start taking us serious again and with that front line we have now we gonna be tough. Its about building that respect again.

Baka_La Flame wrote:The approach we've taken this summer in particular does worry me a bit. We've obviously hit the fast forward button on the rebuild but that could very well mean we can be a treadmill team ala Atl or Memphis

I don't think it's necessarily about hitting fast forward and treadmilling. I do, though, see lots of high quality free agents next season and the potential to resign Ibaka with another max slot available. I think it is more important, at this point, to prove to these free agents that we're ready to win, as opposed to continuing a rebuild and not being an attractive destination at all.

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Optimus_Steel wrote:We didn't get the lottery balls to go the way we were hoping so we don't have the luxury of drafting a bonafide star at the moment. So now we got to make the team competitive to make the team more attractive to established players and stars via free agency and trades. We needed to become tougher for people to start taking us serious again and with that front line we have now we gonna be tough. Its about building that respect again.

I get that and I do agree. I don't necessarily disagree with the moves we've made for the most part. Its just the risk that we could be back where we started this time next year.

Even if Vooch is or isn't on the block, his value won't return the star we need, and if Ibaka walks and Bismack fails to become anything more than a solid defensive big off the bench, we could find ourselvs next summer with another average squad, without Vooch, without Ibaka and with an expensive back up centre to show for our re-build.

All ifs i know. But it just worries me!

It's about having a bunch of non-no. 1 picks/youngsters, and shedding the ones you already can put LOW ceilings on. Especially on a team level aspect.

Then it's about realizing that cap can be traded around super easy these days, and that Orlando is one of the best FA teams in the league. Not every other team is in L.A.

So don't be surprised if the team changes a lot in free agencies, and wins big because of certain free agents yet to appear.

Baka_La Flame wrote:The approach we've taken this summer in particular does worry me a bit. We've obviously hit the fast forward button on the rebuild but that could very well mean we can be a treadmill team ala Atl or Memphis

I'm really starting to hate the term "treadmill" team. I would have killed to not have to go through the past four seasons of garbage and instead had a competitive and successful team like Atlanta and Memphis. How is having a team go into multiple deep playoff runs or to the Eastern or Western Conference finals a bad thing? I swear, it seems like some on this board would like to just tank forever and hype up young prospects and dream of a winning instead of actually doing it. There's a reason everyone is saying playoffs, because losing sucks and everyone can benefit from making the playoffs. You wanna know the best way to develop these young guys like AG, Mario, Payton, Evan? Give them playoff experience!

The way some of the people on here talk about this current roster and what Rob has done this offseason is so ridiculous. I cant even read that ESPN "expert" thread anymore because of some of the garbage post in there. This is the best team the Magic have had since Dwight left, a team that very well could finally make the playoffs and some people just want to complain about the details. I'm sick of the complaints about Biyombo's contract, or how we don't have a go to scorer, or why did we sign Biyombo if we have Vuc, or Vuc sucks, or how dare the Magic sign players and have depth instead of letting the starters play 48 minutes because there isn't enough minutes to go around, and so on.

Instead I'm excited as hell about this team. We have a damn good coach who gets the best out of his player and makes crazy people who blow into peoples ears like Lance Stephenson look like allstars. We have a talented roster who was designed exactly to fit like how Vogel wants to play. The team has very tradable pieces if they want to do that. They are still going to have capspace next year, so it's not like they can never sign more talent. We have the Swat Brother or whatever you guys want to call it. Oh and we have Aaron F@#king Gordon. So you better believe I'm excited!! I know this team isn't going to win the championship, but lets be real, Golden State has already won it. So yeah, I'll be damn happy if this team can make the playoffs and make deep runs like Atlanta and Memphis the next few years. I'll take being that team that wins playoffs over being a team whose highlight of the year is watching some pingpong balls. There's always a risk of being stuck in the middle, of never getting a chance at a championship, but eventually this organization needs to stop talking about the future and start doing things and winning.

We will be fine. If one of Elf Mario or AG has a breakout season, we are set. We solved the rim protection and three point issues in this offseason. We will be contenders soon, but we need to reach the playoffs first. You do not go from A to C without going through B first, unless your team has Lebron. Looking at non Lebron teams who have won it all in the past decade will align with this statement.

I think this is obviously the case. A step towards the playoffs isn't the same thing as a step towards competing for championships. I believe Philadelphia is closer to a championship than we are. I'm not sure Hennigan feels comfortable enough about his present situation that the latter serves as his primary motivation at this point. I'm really bored with this idea of making the team more attractive to free agents. Half the league is attempting to do this every year and it has only worked out for those that are already championship quality. Everyone else is fighting for table scraps. The problem is that unless you are already there, you run out of money in free agency before you can build an elite roster. You just don't find many bargains in free agency.

Hennigan isn't ahead of the curve, he is trying his darnedest to catch up to it. The totality of his body of work since taking over in Orlando doesn't reflect coherency. It is amusing to me that almost five years after dismantling the roster that Smith and Van Gundy crafted, he is trying to recreate it. After several years of drafting high-upside athletes, the focus has shifted to spending massively on interior defenders and surrounding them with 3-point specialists. The "organic" rhetoric is gone and most of the assets acquired from bottoming out have been jettisoned or shuffled off for pennies on the dollar.

My hope that this isn't the case hinges entirely on the development of Payton, Gordon, and Hezonja. If I'm trying to be realistic, that isn't particularly encouraging.

orlando1214 wrote:

Baka_La Flame wrote:The approach we've taken this summer in particular does worry me a bit. We've obviously hit the fast forward button on the rebuild but that could very well mean we can be a treadmill team ala Atl or Memphis

I'm really starting to hate the term "treadmill" team. I would have killed to not have to go through the past four seasons of garbage and instead had a competitive and successful team like Atlanta and Memphis. How is having a team go into multiple deep playoff runs or to the Eastern or Western Conference finals a bad thing? I swear, it seems like some on this board would like to just tank forever and hype up young prospects and dream of a winning instead of actually doing it. There's a reason everyone is saying playoffs, because losing sucks and everyone can benefit from making the playoffs. You wanna know the best way to develop these young guys like AG, Mario, Payton, Evan? Give them playoff experience!

The way some of the people on here talk about this current roster and what Rob has done this offseason is so ridiculous. I cant even read that ESPN "expert" thread anymore because of some of the garbage post in there. This is the best team the Magic have had since Dwight left, a team that very well could finally make the playoffs and some people just want to complain about the details. I'm sick of the complaints about Biyombo's contract, or how we don't have a go to scorer, or why did we sign Biyombo if we have Vuc, or Vuc sucks, or how dare the Magic sign players and have depth instead of letting the starters play 48 minutes because there isn't enough minutes to go around, and so on.

Instead I'm excited as hell about this team. We have a damn good coach who gets the best out of his player and makes crazy people who blow into peoples ears like Lance Stephenson look like allstars. We have a talented roster who was designed exactly to fit like how Vogel wants to play. The team has very tradable pieces if they want to do that. They are still going to have capspace next year, so it's not like they can never sign more talent. We have the Swat Brother or whatever you guys want to call it. Oh and we have Aaron F@#king Gordon. So you better believe I'm excited!! I know this team isn't going to win the championship, but lets be real, Golden State has already won it. So yeah, I'll be damn happy if this team can make the playoffs and make deep runs like Atlanta and Memphis the next few years. I'll take being that team that wins playoffs over being a team whose highlight of the year is watching some pingpong balls. There's always a risk of being stuck in the middle, of never getting a chance at a championship, but eventually this organization needs to stop talking about the future and start doing things and winning.

*Retreats sheepishly in to corner*

Xatticus wrote:I believe Philadelphia is closer to a championship than we are.

Well this may be the most ridiculous thing I have read in a long time. Thank you.

Championship? The main thing I remember coming from Hennigan in particular from the moment he got here is they want to build sustainable success. Very rarely if ever have I heard him mention championship.

chiefholmes wrote:

orlando1214 wrote:

Baka_La Flame wrote:The approach we've taken this summer in particular does worry me a bit. We've obviously hit the fast forward button on the rebuild but that could very well mean we can be a treadmill team ala Atl or Memphis

I'm really starting to hate the term "treadmill" team. I would have killed to not have to go through the past four seasons of garbage and instead had a competitive and successful team like Atlanta and Memphis. How is having a team go into multiple deep playoff runs or to the Eastern or Western Conference finals a bad thing? I swear, it seems like some on this board would like to just tank forever and hype up young prospects and dream of a winning instead of actually doing it. There's a reason everyone is saying playoffs, because losing sucks and everyone can benefit from making the playoffs. You wanna know the best way to develop these young guys like AG, Mario, Payton, Evan? Give them playoff experience!

The way some of the people on here talk about this current roster and what Rob has done this offseason is so ridiculous. I cant even read that ESPN "expert" thread anymore because of some of the garbage post in there. This is the best team the Magic have had since Dwight left, a team that very well could finally make the playoffs and some people just want to complain about the details. I'm sick of the complaints about Biyombo's contract, or how we don't have a go to scorer, or why did we sign Biyombo if we have Vuc, or Vuc sucks, or how dare the Magic sign players and have depth instead of letting the starters play 48 minutes because there isn't enough minutes to go around, and so on.

Instead I'm excited as hell about this team. We have a damn good coach who gets the best out of his player and makes crazy people who blow into peoples ears like Lance Stephenson look like allstars. We have a talented roster who was designed exactly to fit like how Vogel wants to play. The team has very tradable pieces if they want to do that. They are still going to have capspace next year, so it's not like they can never sign more talent. We have the Swat Brother or whatever you guys want to call it. Oh and we have Aaron F@#king Gordon. So you better believe I'm excited!! I know this team isn't going to win the championship, but lets be real, Golden State has already won it. So yeah, I'll be damn happy if this team can make the playoffs and make deep runs like Atlanta and Memphis the next few years. I'll take being that team that wins playoffs over being a team whose highlight of the year is watching some pingpong balls. There's always a risk of being stuck in the middle, of never getting a chance at a championship, but eventually this organization needs to stop talking about the future and start doing things and winning.

*Retreats sheepishly in to corner*

you're fine. It's not like you don't bring up a valid concern. I'm mainly just annoyed by other threads where people are just constantly complaining about every little thing. Probably shouldn't have ranted at you directly. Like I said though, you do bring up a good point that teams have to be careful of letting themselves be fine with being mediocre. I just feel like with the Magic though, being a team that makes the playoffs but doesn't have a chance of winning the championship isn't a bad thing right now. 3 or 4 years if it stays like that, then sure, we can start complaining. I just think though that after 4 years of being terrible, having any type of playoff success needs to be the goal first and foremost.

orlando1214 wrote:

chiefholmes wrote:

orlando1214 wrote:
I'm really starting to hate the term "treadmill" team. I would have killed to not have to go through the past four seasons of garbage and instead had a competitive and successful team like Atlanta and Memphis. How is having a team go into multiple deep playoff runs or to the Eastern or Western Conference finals a bad thing? I swear, it seems like some on this board would like to just tank forever and hype up young prospects and dream of a winning instead of actually doing it. There's a reason everyone is saying playoffs, because losing sucks and everyone can benefit from making the playoffs. You wanna know the best way to develop these young guys like AG, Mario, Payton, Evan? Give them playoff experience!

The way some of the people on here talk about this current roster and what Rob has done this offseason is so ridiculous. I cant even read that ESPN "expert" thread anymore because of some of the garbage post in there. This is the best team the Magic have had since Dwight left, a team that very well could finally make the playoffs and some people just want to complain about the details. I'm sick of the complaints about Biyombo's contract, or how we don't have a go to scorer, or why did we sign Biyombo if we have Vuc, or Vuc sucks, or how dare the Magic sign players and have depth instead of letting the starters play 48 minutes because there isn't enough minutes to go around, and so on.

Instead I'm excited as hell about this team. We have a damn good coach who gets the best out of his player and makes crazy people who blow into peoples ears like Lance Stephenson look like allstars. We have a talented roster who was designed exactly to fit like how Vogel wants to play. The team has very tradable pieces if they want to do that. They are still going to have capspace next year, so it's not like they can never sign more talent. We have the Swat Brother or whatever you guys want to call it. Oh and we have Aaron F@#king Gordon. So you better believe I'm excited!! I know this team isn't going to win the championship, but lets be real, Golden State has already won it. So yeah, I'll be damn happy if this team can make the playoffs and make deep runs like Atlanta and Memphis the next few years. I'll take being that team that wins playoffs over being a team whose highlight of the year is watching some pingpong balls. There's always a risk of being stuck in the middle, of never getting a chance at a championship, but eventually this organization needs to stop talking about the future and start doing things and winning.

*Retreats sheepishly in to corner*

you're fine. It's not like you don't bring up a valid concern. I'm mainly just annoyed by other threads where people are just constantly complaining about every little thing. Probably shouldn't have ranted at you directly. Like I said though, you do bring up a good point that teams have to be careful of letting themselves be fine with being mediocre. I just feel like with the Magic though, being a team that makes the playoffs but doesn't have a chance of winning the championship isn't a bad thing right now. 3 or 4 years if it stays like that, then sure, we can start complaining. I just think though that after 4 years of being terrible, having any type of playoff success needs to be the goal first and foremost.

I know mate, it's fine. It was more about my fear that in changing course from the "long term goal" in order to try and put a more competitive and successful court in the short term, we could end up stung and back to square one in a years time.
I'm with you, Play offs would be great, and hopefully form the catalyst for more sustained success and attract new players etc. It's just have we gone all in with our chips and got a hand that aint that great.

chiefholmes wrote:

fendilim wrote:Need to reach the playoffs, before we even talk about championship.

Understand that of course. Just wondered if the goals of the team building is merely to reach the playoffs?

When this all started we were assembling assets and talent in order to build a championship core and culture. It seems though that has been disbanded and abandoned in favour of just making the playoffs.

its not like we brought in 2-3 34 yr olds to make an immediate jump into the playoffs and nothing else. Ibaka is a great fitting PF who is still young. Biyombo (early 20s'), Green is just a bench guy that can be an emergency starter if AG gets hurt or cant cut it as starting SF. i dont see how things have changed.

PennytoShaq wrote:

Xatticus wrote:I believe Philadelphia is closer to a championship than we are.

Well this may be the most ridiculous thing I have read in a long time. Thank you.

Why?

PennytoShaq wrote:

Xatticus wrote:I believe Philadelphia is closer to a championship than we are.

Well this may be the most ridiculous thing I have read in a long time. Thank you.

You're welcome. And that is precisely the reason that I chose Philadelphia over Minnesota, for example.

tiderulz wrote:

chiefholmes wrote:

fendilim wrote:Need to reach the playoffs, before we even talk about championship.

Understand that of course. Just wondered if the goals of the team building is merely to reach the playoffs?

When this all started we were assembling assets and talent in order to build a championship core and culture. It seems though that has been disbanded and abandoned in favour of just making the playoffs.

its not like we brought in 2-3 34 yr olds to make an immediate jump into the playoffs and nothing else. Ibaka is a great fitting PF who is still young. Biyombo (early 20s'), Green is just a bench guy that can be an emergency starter if AG gets hurt or cant cut it as starting SF. i dont see how things have changed.

Although I agree, I think what has changed (looking at this cynically and in a worst case scenario) is that for Harris and Oladipo, we have essentially got Ibaka (who could end up being 1 yr rental), Biyombo (who could end up being grossly overpaid as back up center), Jeff Green (serviceable veteran who won't likely pull any trees up and could be gone a year from now or sooner).

Hopefully everything you say pays off and we have a hungry successful core that is complimented by capable veterans. I do however find it slightly odd, that at a time when the league is going small ball and relying more and more on up tempo and 3 point shooting, we decide to load our roster with shot blockers and adopt the twin towers approach. Not saying it's wrong. Just interesting timing to go this route!