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We should of packaged them for something big. Would we have done better than a expiring ibaka?

Maybe Millsap, but also maybe not? Ask yourself, what would've Oladipo+Sabonis+2017 pick have gotten the Magic? Probably not much difference in value between Harris and the 2017 pick. The Magic didn't miss out on anything by trading Tobias.

What if, we don't what if?

Tobias had neutral value. Possibly slightly in the positive direction.

Vic has/had positive value, but in the last year of his deal so knowingly will need a max in a year.

So two guys that are in all honesty probably fringe starters on good teams (Vic probably starter, Tobias 6th man scorer) who'd probably combine next year to make between 40-45 million. Don't think we could've gotten anything remotely close to a star.

Santa claus

It takes a lot more than people seem to realize to net a star.

In recent memory, the only star transaction that didn't seem fair was Melo to NYK. That's just because he absolutely refused to go anywhere else. Dwight did the same to us I suppose. Love required Wiggins, another former number 1 and other pieces (more picks?).

The offer sounds pretty great when you read it out loud, but in all honesty, probably a tier 2-3 guy, which I think ultimately we got.

Probably Ibaka and cap space.

In retrospect, if Henny wasn't 100% behind Payton, I'd imagine we could've swung a deal of those assets for Teague + Millsap, or at the very least Teague for the #11, and Oladipo straight up for Ibaka.

ORL
BB
Millsap
Gordon
Fournier
Teague

ATL
Howard/Sabonis
Horford (if he liked the new additions enough to stay)
Harris
Oladipo
Schroeder

But that would've meant abandoning Payton as a starter, even if only for a year, and who knows how that might've impacted his confidence. They're still 1 year rental deals, but we would've been a lock for the playoffs, and we'd have much less concern about BB's offensive shortcomings with Millsap and Teague there to alleviate.

Harris' value was not that great. The only controversy around that deal was if a first should have been thrown in by Detroit and SVG even admitted he was surprised they did not have to give one.

The only controversy about the Victor Oladipo deal is if they had to give #11 in the deal.

For me, it's a question of potentially two lost first round picks.

I do not think those players combined could have netted a star though. The lack of lottery luck has hurt those chances for The Magic during this rebuild.

Which 1st round pick are you referring to? Because if you mean the pick that was used to pick Donatas, then its going to be worth a lot more. Since, we're basically trading away 2 of our top 3 players plus our own pick.

In terms of stuff that you might actually need? probably not much, ideally you would like to have gotten a 1st level wing player, those are just out of the market, at any price basically.

You probably could've gotten a higher pick, and maybe that one if you get lucky could have netted Ingram, that's about it.

Fischella wrote:In terms of stuff that you might actually need? probably not much, ideally you would like to have gotten a 1st level wing player, those are just out of the market, at any price basically.

You probably could've gotten a higher pick, and maybe that one if you get lucky could have netted Ingram, that's about it.

This guy always talks up the top lottery guys every year, it's kinda funny actually.

I remember when he said Mudiay was leaps and bounds a better prospect than Oladipo lol.

Howard Mass wrote:Harris' value was not that great. The only controversy around that deal was if a first should have been thrown in by Detroit and SVG even admitted he was surprised they did not have to give one.

The only controversy about the Victor Oladipo deal is if they had to give #11 in the deal.

For me, it's a question of potentially two lost first round picks.

I do not think those players combined could have netted a star though. The lack of lottery luck has hurt those chances for The Magic during this rebuild.

the thing is, we just dont really know that. unless you were either in the room when Hennigan talked to teams or insiders in the Magic told you this?

davey_wavy wrote:We should of packaged them for something big. Would we have done better than a expiring ibaka?

Would it have seemed bigger if Ibaka wasn't an expiring?

I tend to look at it that way anyways, because I think the odds are very, very good that he will re-sign.

tiderulz wrote:

Howard Mass wrote:Harris' value was not that great. The only controversy around that deal was if a first should have been thrown in by Detroit and SVG even admitted he was surprised they did not have to give one.

The only controversy about the Victor Oladipo deal is if they had to give #11 in the deal.

For me, it's a question of potentially two lost first round picks.

I do not think those players combined could have netted a star though. The lack of lottery luck has hurt those chances for The Magic during this rebuild.

the thing is, we just dont really know that. unless you were either in the room when Hennigan talked to teams or insiders in the Magic told you this?

You could say that for every player that's been traded...

I think it is a pretty fair, safe assumption though.

Outside our fanbase, the entire league undervalues our players because of our losing record the past couple of years. Biggest example is Vuc. If Vuc played for some big market team and avg 19/11 like he did two years ago, he would be heralded as an all-star.

Players on small market teams will always be undermined. Until they are traded. Then they are automatically young future superstars that we made the mistake in trading.

OrlandoDream wrote:Outside our fanbase, the entire league undervalues our players because of our losing record the past couple of years. Biggest example is Vuc. If Vuc played for some big market team and avg 19/11 like he did two years ago, he would be heralded as an all-star.

Players on small market teams will always be undermined. Until they are traded. Then they are automatically young future superstars that we made the mistake in trading.

The big-market label isn't what you meant (or it shouldn't have been what you meant). Just before that you referenced our losing record as a metric for his value. This is correct. But it is also fair.

This is basketball; not football or soccer or even baseball. Over 48 minutes a minimum amount of every stat will be accumulated by both teams in each and every game. What often makes a bad team bad is the players dominating these stats just aren't that good (at least not yet). You can look at the bad early years of Seattle and OKC records and still see that KD is a future super star. Despite the stats, any unbiased observer can see that Harris and Vuc were utility players putting up better numbers than they would on a good team. As long as you don't overpay or overplay them, every team needs guys like this. So while they both have value and both should have long careers, they don't have the trade value so many here seem to believe.

Dipo plays relentless defense. He is out of control at times but unlike Harris or Vuc, the flashes of playing at another level are there. This alone makes him more valuable than those two. But Ibaka offers that same type of play, just at a position of greater need. So in short, I'm perfectly happy with the moves we made and am not interested in the "what if" game.

j-ragg wrote:

tiderulz wrote:

Howard Mass wrote:Harris' value was not that great. The only controversy around that deal was if a first should have been thrown in by Detroit and SVG even admitted he was surprised they did not have to give one.

The only controversy about the Victor Oladipo deal is if they had to give #11 in the deal.

For me, it's a question of potentially two lost first round picks.

I do not think those players combined could have netted a star though. The lack of lottery luck has hurt those chances for The Magic during this rebuild.

the thing is, we just dont really know that. unless you were either in the room when Hennigan talked to teams or insiders in the Magic told you this?

You could say that for every player that's been traded...

I think it is a pretty fair, safe assumption though.

we have no idea if Harris had value, or if Hennigan let Martins/Skiles force him to get Skiles players just to let him hang himself. We just dont know. Anyone who says they know different is just guessing

tiderulz wrote:we have no idea if Harris had value, or if Hennigan let Martins/Skiles force him to get Skiles players just to let him hang himself. We just dont know. Anyone who says they know different is just guessing

Im pretty sure Hennigan took the best offer he got for Harris which was expiring vets, if there was a better offer its pretty safe to assume he would have taken it.

Last year Harris averaged 14/7 with poor efficiency, subpar defense and didnt provide spacing or rim protection on a team that was already lacking in both areas, not only that but he was locked on 16 million a year for 4 years.
If the cap didnt rise as it did this summer he would have been a really bad contract, as it stands I would still rather have 16 million in cap space than Tobias Harris and I wont be surprised if he lost his starting role this upcoming season.

tiderulz wrote:

j-ragg wrote:

tiderulz wrote:
the thing is, we just dont really know that. unless you were either in the room when Hennigan talked to teams or insiders in the Magic told you this?

You could say that for every player that's been traded...

I think it is a pretty fair, safe assumption though.

we have no idea if Harris had value, or if Hennigan let Martins/Skiles force him to get Skiles players just to let him hang himself. We just dont know. Anyone who says they know different is just guessing

True. Which is why I don't see too much of a point in venturing into such speculation. I will say though, we clearly aren't placing much value on draft picks anymore, which is a mistake in my mind. Vucevic was draft sixteenth and Fournier went twentieth. I think it is very fair to question the lack of a pick in the Harris deal and the inclusion of a lottery pick in the Ibaka deal. Rookie scale deals for first round picks are seldom a financial difficulty. Two teams have now shed Napier's guaranteed deal with little difficulty. But the Magic front office should be as cognizant as any that these first round picks have legitimate value.