RealGM

Hi all,

The last in my series of new Magic players Scouting Reports is up for Today's Fastbreak:

http://www.todaysfastbreak.com/nba-east/orlando-magic/new-player-scouting-reports-jeff-green-c-j-wilcox/

I hope you've enjoyed reading these and maybe even learned something from them.

As always, I'd love to hear your thoughts!

Thanks!

Smitty

Keep up the good work!

I hate to sound mean, so please don't take it this way.

I really don't understand what Orlando is doing? They had one of the most exciting young cores in the NBA to all of a sudden having a bunch of average players.
Ibaka is still a good player but he's not even at the level of Milsap right now and Milsap is only just an All Star level player. Ibaka even though he's under 30 has seemed to decline from a couple of years ago. Is he going to bounce back and be very good again? It's iffy at best, definitely not certain about it.
Biyombo is a role player at best. Yes he had an amazing playoffs but was that a flash in the pan or is that the new more dominant Biyombo now? I'm not so sure.
Green is by definition the most average player in the NBA. He's not particularly good at anything and not necessarily a weakness on the court either. He has some talent but has never been consistent enough to take it to the next level. He's now 30 and isn't going to get any better but not old enough to get worse. He is Mr Average.

I thought the team got rid of Tobias Harris specifically to make way for Gordon and Herzonja to develop.

Now Gordon and Herzonja will be fighting for minutes with each other and will have to contend with Green and Ibaka who will start ahaead of them. This will dramatically hinder their development in my opinion.

At best now they are going to be a middle of the pack team for years to come in the same way that Atlanta has been for an age of time. That's a real shame because with their previous young talented core I thought they had potential to be contenders in the East.
I really loved the idea of having Payton, Fournier, Herzonja, Gordon and Vucevic with Oladipo as a 6th man. That to me looked like a great team in the future. Now not so much.

bakesale wrote:I hate to sound mean, so please don't take it this way.

I really don't understand what Orlando is doing? They had one of the most exciting young cores in the NBA to all of a sudden having a bunch of average players.
Ibaka is still a good player but he's not even at the level of Milsap right now and Milsap is only just an All Star level player. Ibaka even though he's under 30 has seemed to decline from a couple of years ago. Is he going to bounce back and be very good again? It's iffy at best, definitely not certain about it.
Biyombo is a role player at best. Yes he had an amazing playoffs but was that a flash in the pan or is that the new more dominant Biyombo now? I'm not so sure.
Green is by definition the most average player in the NBA. He's not particularly good at anything and not necessarily a weakness on the court either. He has some talent but has never been consistent enough to take it to the next level. He's now 30 and isn't going to get any better but not old enough to get worse. He is Mr Average.

I thought the team got rid of Tobias Harris specifically to make way for Gordon and Herzonja to develop.

Now Gordon and Herzonja will be fighting for minutes with each other and will have to contend with Green and Ibaka who will start ahaead of them. This will dramatically hinder their development in my opinion.

At best now they are going to be a middle of the pack team for years to come in the same way that Atlanta has been for an age of time. That's a real shame because with their previous young talented core I thought they had potential to be contenders in the East.
I really loved the idea of having Payton, Fournier, Herzonja, Gordon and Vucevic with Oladipo as a 6th man. That to me looked like a great team in the future. Now not so much.

The only real things of value thata we lost is Oladipo and Harris. I liked harris a lot... but exciting wasn't quite the description i would use for him. Oladipo was an exciting player to watch and will be missed by all. they were good .... but Hezonja and Gordon have the potential to be even greater.... and definitely have that "IT" factor. So i can easily see why we might invest more into them than the previous two discussed. The difference is that.... you do not seem to find the same amount of value in the new additions of Ibaka and biyombo. Defense has been a problem of ours for the passed few years...they might not be the flashiest players on the offensive end... but they definitely put their stamp on the defensive end. Ibaka wanted a greater role on the floor because he feels as though he can do more than what the oklahoma thunder pigeon holed him into... and he is our "Vet" at the age of 26 which is awesome. You think biyombo's play in the playoff was a flash in the pan... I think it was his coming out party and he did so on the biggest stage and against some of the biggest names.... annnnnnnnnd he's 23. So... we went from a square that we are trying to shove into a round hole (Harris) and an oval (oladipo) which is about to get bigger as he believes that he is worth the max. Those were flipped for two of the three best rim protector in the entire league, solidifying our front court for years to come.... whose abilities were seemingly made for the Orlando Magic.

Not sure what team you are affiliated with .... but happy you're taking interest in the team and will like what you see when our team actually hits the court.

yoyojw17 wrote:

bakesale wrote:I hate to sound mean, so please don't take it this way.

I really don't understand what Orlando is doing? They had one of the most exciting young cores in the NBA to all of a sudden having a bunch of average players.
Ibaka is still a good player but he's not even at the level of Milsap right now and Milsap is only just an All Star level player. Ibaka even though he's under 30 has seemed to decline from a couple of years ago. Is he going to bounce back and be very good again? It's iffy at best, definitely not certain about it.
Biyombo is a role player at best. Yes he had an amazing playoffs but was that a flash in the pan or is that the new more dominant Biyombo now? I'm not so sure.
Green is by definition the most average player in the NBA. He's not particularly good at anything and not necessarily a weakness on the court either. He has some talent but has never been consistent enough to take it to the next level. He's now 30 and isn't going to get any better but not old enough to get worse. He is Mr Average.

I thought the team got rid of Tobias Harris specifically to make way for Gordon and Herzonja to develop.

Now Gordon and Herzonja will be fighting for minutes with each other and will have to contend with Green and Ibaka who will start ahaead of them. This will dramatically hinder their development in my opinion.

At best now they are going to be a middle of the pack team for years to come in the same way that Atlanta has been for an age of time. That's a real shame because with their previous young talented core I thought they had potential to be contenders in the East.
I really loved the idea of having Payton, Fournier, Herzonja, Gordon and Vucevic with Oladipo as a 6th man. That to me looked like a great team in the future. Now not so much.

The only real things of value thata we lost is Oladipo and Harris. I liked harris a lot... but exciting wasn't quite the description i would use for him. Oladipo was an exciting player to watch and will be missed by all. they were good .... but Hezonja and Gordon have the potential to be even greater.... and definitely have that "IT" factor. So i can easily see why we might invest more into them than the previous two discussed. The difference is that.... you do not seem to find the same amount of value in the new additions of Ibaka and biyombo. Defense has been a problem of ours for the passed few years...they might not be the flashiest players on the offensive end... but they definitely put their stamp on the defensive end. Ibaka wanted a greater role on the floor because he feels as though he can do more than what the oklahoma thunder pigeon holed him into... and he is our "Vet" at the age of 26 which is awesome. You think biyombo's play in the playoff was a flash in the pan... I think it was his coming out party and he did so on the biggest stage and against some of the biggest names.... annnnnnnnnd he's 23. So... we went from a square that we are trying to shove into a round hole (Harris) and an oval (oladipo) which is about to get bigger as he believes that he is worth the max. Those were flipped for two of the three best rim protector in the entire league, solidifying our front court for years to come.... whose abilities were seemingly made for the Orlando Magic.

Not sure what team you are affiliated with .... but happy you're taking interest in the team and will like what you see when our team actually hits the court.

The truth is I actually like Biyombo and in fact forget I even mentioned him.

I even like Ibaka but I feel like he has declined the past season or 2 even though he seems to be relatively young. But my real issue is that Ibaka and Jeff Green will take away minutes from Herzonja from Gordon. I feel like Herzonja and Gordon could be real stars in the league but they are the kind of players that will need a lot of rythm and time on the floor to get there. I think Gordon has potential on the defensive end and looks to me like a natural PF. I hope for his sake that Ibaka's presence helps rather than gets in his way from being really good. But my sense overall is that the ownership is too keen on getting their team into the playoffs now rather than developing their young talent slowly like how OKC and the Warriors did.

I feel like Utah and Min are fairly patient with their young talent, I was hoping Orlando would follow suit.

bakesale wrote:

yoyojw17 wrote:

bakesale wrote:I hate to sound mean, so please don't take it this way.

I really don't understand what Orlando is doing? They had one of the most exciting young cores in the NBA to all of a sudden having a bunch of average players.
Ibaka is still a good player but he's not even at the level of Milsap right now and Milsap is only just an All Star level player. Ibaka even though he's under 30 has seemed to decline from a couple of years ago. Is he going to bounce back and be very good again? It's iffy at best, definitely not certain about it.
Biyombo is a role player at best. Yes he had an amazing playoffs but was that a flash in the pan or is that the new more dominant Biyombo now? I'm not so sure.
Green is by definition the most average player in the NBA. He's not particularly good at anything and not necessarily a weakness on the court either. He has some talent but has never been consistent enough to take it to the next level. He's now 30 and isn't going to get any better but not old enough to get worse. He is Mr Average.

I thought the team got rid of Tobias Harris specifically to make way for Gordon and Herzonja to develop.

Now Gordon and Herzonja will be fighting for minutes with each other and will have to contend with Green and Ibaka who will start ahaead of them. This will dramatically hinder their development in my opinion.

At best now they are going to be a middle of the pack team for years to come in the same way that Atlanta has been for an age of time. That's a real shame because with their previous young talented core I thought they had potential to be contenders in the East.
I really loved the idea of having Payton, Fournier, Herzonja, Gordon and Vucevic with Oladipo as a 6th man. That to me looked like a great team in the future. Now not so much.

The only real things of value thata we lost is Oladipo and Harris. I liked harris a lot... but exciting wasn't quite the description i would use for him. Oladipo was an exciting player to watch and will be missed by all. they were good .... but Hezonja and Gordon have the potential to be even greater.... and definitely have that "IT" factor. So i can easily see why we might invest more into them than the previous two discussed. The difference is that.... you do not seem to find the same amount of value in the new additions of Ibaka and biyombo. Defense has been a problem of ours for the passed few years...they might not be the flashiest players on the offensive end... but they definitely put their stamp on the defensive end. Ibaka wanted a greater role on the floor because he feels as though he can do more than what the oklahoma thunder pigeon holed him into... and he is our "Vet" at the age of 26 which is awesome. You think biyombo's play in the playoff was a flash in the pan... I think it was his coming out party and he did so on the biggest stage and against some of the biggest names.... annnnnnnnnd he's 23. So... we went from a square that we are trying to shove into a round hole (Harris) and an oval (oladipo) which is about to get bigger as he believes that he is worth the max. Those were flipped for two of the three best rim protector in the entire league, solidifying our front court for years to come.... whose abilities were seemingly made for the Orlando Magic.

Not sure what team you are affiliated with .... but happy you're taking interest in the team and will like what you see when our team actually hits the court.

The truth is I actually like Biyombo and in fact forget I even mentioned him.

I even like Ibaka but I feel like he has declined the past season or 2 even though he seems to be relatively young. But my real issue is that Ibaka and Jeff Green will take away minutes from Herzonja from Gordon. I feel like Herzonja and Gordon could be real stars in the league but they are the kind of players that will need a lot of rythm and time on the floor to get there. I think Gordon has potential on the defensive end and looks to me like a natural PF. I hope for his sake that Ibaka's presence helps rather than gets in his way from being really good. But my sense overall is that the ownership is too keen on getting their team into the playoffs now rather than developing their young talent slowly like how OKC and the Warriors did.

I feel like Utah and Min are fairly patient with their young talent, I was hoping Orlando would follow suit.

I can totally understand what you are thinking. But to be honest with you... Hezonja will be climbing above 20 minutes a game this season and Gordon will definitely get his 30 minutes as a key contributor. I'm fine with Hezonja getting those types of minutes in his second year and I see him at our sixth man-ish... along with Bismack. I don't see many players on this team putting in more than 30 min on a nightly basis due to the depth that we now have behind our starting unit.... which to me is a great thing. Jeff Green at first... seemed to be a contender for major minutes especially with that massive 1 year contract. But as long as gordon, ibaka, hezonja etc are healthy... i think he is a veteran presence on a large one year contract that will be easily tradeable to a contender at mid season or a way to preserve cap space for next year... and will not be getting as much minutes as his contract will suggest.

If i had to predict the future, Fournier has the car till it's time to re-up on Hezonja... and that is perfectly fine with me. And if he bursts out the gate looking like a legit star... i'm sure a trade will occur even earlier. Now.... imagine if Harris and Oladipo were here.... he would get much less time along with gordon in lineups that are hard to match. This team we have now is probably the best put together team we've had since the Dwight Prime Era.

Utah still hadn't gone through the level of change that we had over the last few years... with players like favors and gordan already in place. Minnesota kept adding Top pick after top pick to positions of need..... so their rebuild is always more palatable. Compared to us who were just outside those ranges or opportunities and took a mishmash of players that we thought as Best Player Available.... but sadly they didn't fit together. As i said ... i love me some Minny and they are going to be exciting to watch. But with what we've done this offseason... though underwhelming at first glance. with no fancy acquisitions... so will the Magic. We will be on the up and up from now on... and when gordon and hezonja pop.... "It's SHOWTIME"

yoyojw17 wrote:
I can totally understand what you are thinking. But to be honest with you... Hezonja will be climbing above 20 minutes a game this season and Gordon will definitely get his 30 minutes as a key contributor. I'm fine with Hezonja getting those types of minutes in his second year and I see him at our sixth man-ish... along with Bismack. I don't see many players on this team putting in more than 30 min on a nightly basis due to the depth that we now have behind our starting unit.... which to me is a great thing. Jeff Green at first... seemed to be a contender for major minutes especially with that massive 1 year contract. But as long as gordon, ibaka, hezonja etc are healthy... i think he is a veteran presence on a large one year contract that will be easily tradeable to a contender at mid season or a way to preserve cap space for next year... and will not be getting as much minutes as his contract will suggest.

If i had to predict the future, Fournier has the car till it's time to re-up on Hezonja... and that is perfectly fine with me. And if he bursts out the gate looking like a legit star... i'm sure a trade will occur even earlier. Now.... imagine if Harris and Oladipo were here.... he would get much less time along with gordon in lineups that are hard to match. This team we have now is probably the best put together team we've had since the Dwight Prime Era.

Utah still hadn't gone through the level of change that we had over the last few years... with players like favors and gordan already in place. Minnesota kept adding Top pick after top pick to positions of need..... so their rebuild is always more palatable. Compared to us who were just outside those ranges or opportunities and took a mishmash of players that we thought as Best Player Available.... but sadly they didn't fit together. As i said ... i love me some Minny and they are going to be exciting to watch. But with what we've done this offseason... though underwhelming at first glance. with no fancy acquisitions... so will the Magic. We will be on the up and up from now on... and when gordon and hezonja pop.... "It's SHOWTIME"

Good answer but here's a more to the point practical question in a 48 minute game how do you see the actual minutes being distributed amongst the front court?

Well ... obviously this isn't how it will work out. But a 9 man rotation would be perfect for us with our flexibility

Efrid (30), Augustin (18)
Fournier (30), Hezonja (27)
Gordon (30), Green (18)
Ibaka (30)
Vucevic (30), Biyombo (27)

this would just be how i can envision a general distribution of minutes. Factor in everyone else, injuries... etc etc....

I expect Jeff Green to start and possibly lose the job to Gordon as the season progresses. Will be a nice training camp battle for the SF position.

rcklsscognition wrote:I expect Jeff Green to start and possibly lose the job to Gordon as the season progresses. Will be a nice training camp battle for the SF position.

I'd be surprised if this happens. Gordon would have to have a pretty bad camp/preseason. They intend for him to start and be a big part of things this year.

Green is ticketed to be the primary backup SF/PF. It isn't looking like they'll use Vucevic much with Biyombo, as it will have to be the right opponent to pull that off.

In general, I think a 9 man rotation is the right thought:

Payton/Augustin
Fournier/Hezonja
Gordon/Green/Hezonja
Ibaka/Green
Vucevic/Biyombo

And Wilcox will get some run at backup SG occasionally as well, if he proves he's worthy.

Media Day is in two weeks and I know that I intend to ask some rotation related questions. I'm sure it will be the standard answers, but Frank Vogel has been pretty candid so far, so maybe we'll get something.

rcklsscognition wrote:I expect Jeff Green to start and possibly lose the job to Gordon as the season progresses. Will be a nice training camp battle for the SF position.

If this happens, Hennigan better figure out a good exit strategy...

rcklsscognition wrote:I expect Jeff Green to start and possibly lose the job to Gordon as the season progresses. Will be a nice training camp battle for the SF position.

100% disagree


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thelead wrote:

rcklsscognition wrote:I expect Jeff Green to start and possibly lose the job to Gordon as the season progresses. Will be a nice training camp battle for the SF position.

If this happens, Hennigan better figure out a good exit strategy...

nahh bro, remember when Gordon looked like a star for 3 games in the Summer League last year?

we should have no worries, mate.

Orlwillbeback wrote:

thelead wrote:

rcklsscognition wrote:I expect Jeff Green to start and possibly lose the job to Gordon as the season progresses. Will be a nice training camp battle for the SF position.

If this happens, Hennigan better figure out a good exit strategy...

nahh bro, remember when Gordon looked like a star for 3 games in the Summer League last year?

we should have no worries, mate.

curious use of sarcasm aside, you're right.

it would take some combination of a major regression in aaron's development and an extremely unlikely turnaround in green's career trajectory for me to even consider worrying about aaron not being our starting 3 on opening night.

it's hard to overlook the fact that aaron's second season is statistically better than any season green has had in his entire career. even aaron's career p.e.r. numbers compare favorably to green's best season in terms of p.e.r.

The fact that neither are 3s leaves this wide open. Both played the majority of their minutes at PF, so it's wide open IMO who winds up working better at SF.

rcklsscognition wrote:I expect Jeff Green to start and possibly lose the job to Gordon as the season progresses. Will be a nice training camp battle for the SF position.

Would be a shame if Vogel starts Green after saying he expects AG to start and he'll be used like Paul George.

bakesale wrote:Good answer but here's a more to the point practical question in a 48 minute game how do you see the actual minutes being distributed amongst the front court?

I mean I think Toronto was fine dealing minutes to Valanciunas(around Vucevic's level) and Biyombo. Serge is still getting starting PF minutes so I don't think there is much fuss there. Gordon can take the backup PF minutes and Green can take whatever SF minutes are left

SF Gordon(20)/Green(16)/Hezonja(12)
PF Serge(34)/Gordon(10)/Green(4)/Biyombo(spot)
C Vuc(30)/Biyombo(18)/Ibaka(spot)

rough estimates but something like that.

EDIT: This doesn't even account for injuries opening up roster spots throughout the year

I find it interesting that a lot of you have Gordon starting ahead of Green despite Green's wealth of experience and contract.

Also interesting that a lot of you see Hezonja as a sg when to me based on size and weight and from what I've seen from him looks more like a prototypical sf, no? He appears to be listed as a sf on every website I see...

bakesale wrote:I find it interesting that a lot of you have Gordon starting ahead of Green despite Green's wealth of experience and contract.

Also interesting that a lot of you see Hezonja as a sg when to me based on size and weight and from what I've seen from him looks more like a prototypical sf, no? He appears to be listed as a sf on every website I see...

On the Warriors David Lee and Andre Iguodala made like double Draymond Green's and Harrison Barnes' salary in the championship year. Obviously different situation compared to our roster but they still had more experience and made more money. On development and worth to the franchise alone I trust Gordon to overtake Green in the lineup barring huge developmental relapse especially considering how other fans think of Green's abilities(couldn't overtake Wes Johnson/Luc Richard Mbah a Moute for minutes). Hezonja will be taking backup minutes at both SG/SF this year due to Meeks injury history along with Fournier's emergence and will develop on a more relaxed environment compared to last year when Meeks comes back. He has SF size but is open to playing the SG position.

Maybe it's my insecurities, but I sense and smell a lowkey troll.

I don't quite trust anyone starting their essay with "I hate to sound mean".