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Alright, here's a quick breakdown of our offenses from last night, and the difference between the starting 5 and the closing 5.

As a reminder, the starting 5 still kept the game close. It was the same 2nd unit that lead the comeback who also allowed the lead to blow out to 20 points. But let's look at what we were doing right in that 4th quarter in hopes the team can build off it.

Here is a play by play breakdown of each offensive touch in the 4th. (I think I skipped 1 or 2 of the missed shots, though).



4th Quarter Success

- Good spacing, Biyombo setting screens on the perimeter and that completely opens the paint up for attack.



- Now in this sequence, Mario is about to get stripped. But look at the difference there is in spacing with just Biyombo in the paint in comparison to the mess that happens with Vuc and Ibaka in the paint at the same time.



- Pushing after defensive rebound, before defence is set, Augustin uses a Biyombo screen to attack the rim on a Love switch (makes, And-1). Cleveland defence is lazy, they don’t stay home on players or make a move to provide help.



- With just Biyombo in the paint, it clears space for lobs once he gets in position. Notice that defenders are staying home on all players, including Elfrid (who everyone made such a point about being a liability on offense during the summer), and Augustin who's 10ft behind the arc.



- Magic load up one side, Biyombo sets a screen and opens up the paint for Augustin to drive and attack.



- Augustin takes Jefferson on an ISO. Defense is spread, but they're sagging enough into the paint that they could collapse harder if they wanted to, but they don't. Cavs did play some lazy defense in this quarter on certain possessions.



- Green sets a screen for Augustin. (I'm not sure what happened in this play, pretty sure it was a miss of some sort. I'm just highlighting how many more screens we implemented into the 4th quarter).



- Biyombo sets screen for Augustin, giving him a clean look from the top of the arc. Love drops back, anticipating a drive, giving Augustin plenty of room to take and make a 3. Notice that LeBron has sagged off the perimeter and is anticipating a drive, too.



- Biyombo setting off-ball screen for Augustin. There were a lot of off-ball screens run in this quarter, even some double screens.



- Notice Ibaka and Green crowding the paint, similar to what happened in the 1st quarter. Irving sagging off Augustin on the weakside, too.



- Ibaka sets a weak screen and this PnR fails early on. Fournier tries to split LeBron (sagging waaaaay off Green) and Love. Irving drops down to help on Ibaka, providing a brief bail out to Augustin, but Irving closes out to quick forcing a bad shot from DJ.



- Someone teach Ibaka how to set a screen. Thankfully, Payton's passing is that good he managed to throw a nice pocket pass into Ibaka to complete the PnR. LeBron, again, sagging off Green.


The Starting 5

HIGH-LOW POST CROWDING




- Paint Crowding. Ibaka and Vuc are actually a horrible combo the way they're being currently used. The high-low game crowds the paint, neither are active in setting screens for other players (Vuc will set screens for Fournier but almost nobody else), and nobody seems to know where they are most of the time. This is our biggest problem right now. It makes the entire offense a mess.

You will notice, however, that AG's man sticks to him even out on the perimeter. So he's not hurting spacing as people would suggest.

POOR SPACING





- The spacing in general is poor, but no, it's not because of AG and Payton not being respected from 3. You'll notice that their defenders almost always stick with them even out on the perimeter (in the first picture, LeBron has left him, because AG has run into the same corner as Fournier, which was a dumb move on his part). What the real problem is, is that our guys have no sense of when they should cut into the paint and when not to. This is generally because of the confusion and crowding caused by Ibaka and Vuc both camping out in this space.



- In this sequence, Fournier is inexplicably trying to set a screen whilst two defenders already have free access to both Payton and Vuc. It's achieving nothing but clogging up the paint, and blocking passing lanes. This is a good example of the kind of confusion amidst our offense.



- In this sequence, everyone seems to come off the perimeter all at the same time. Like, wtf? Where's the communication? Ultimately, it ends in a clogged paint. Vuc makes a pathetic attempt at a screen on Smith (who manages to walk through it backwards, without even looking at it. If you can't screen a guy who's not looking, then you're doing a bad job). Gordon and Ibaka are crowding the same corner for some reason. Meanwhile, Thompson and LeBron are both inside their men, ready to collapse on Payton if he tries to attack.


AG AT THE 3 IS NOT THE PROBLEM


- For some reason, nobody wants to set AG a pick. Most times he touches the ball, Vuc or Ibaka decide that their position in the paint takes priority. Admittedly, Gordon doesn't seem ready to beat guys off the dribble with his first step just yet, so he needs the help of PnRs, but we don't give it to him. In general, defenders respect him and will stick with him on the perimeter, so the 'spacing' argument doesn't hold with him. His playmaking isn't the strongest yet, as he forces things too often, but these are the learning curves that are to be expected.



- In this sequence, AG gets a screen (and should've taken a 3), and probably could've made it down that lane if he moved quickly, but he hesitated. Love and Thompson were both on the inside of their men and pretty close, though. Ibaka should've been out on the perimeter, pulling Thompson away or getting open for a look from deep.



- In this sequence, AG has room to go right and try to take LeBron and probably should have, but Payton is crossing through the paint bringing his defender with him and Ibaka is already camped in the paint. Again, not a screen in sight.



- In this sequence, AG gets the ball on the perimeter, right as everyone decides they need to be in the paint at the same time. The only player outside the perimeter is Vuc, who isn't setting a screen for AG.



SOLUTIONS

SPACING, SCREENS & SMART OFF-BALL MOVEMENT

- If we keep the same starting 5, for the love of god, can we get a plan on where our guys should be and when? There's no need to have both Ibaka and Vuc in the paint at the same time. Vuc has made some sweet passes from outside the perimeter, and his defenders generally follow him out. Ibaka is a known 3pt threat, but he's hardly ever out on the line, so let's have him out there on every other play, too. We just need that, good screens, and off-ball movement at the right time, and things will open up for us a lot more.


Ultimately, I think the best solution is to start Biyombo and Ibaka, make Ibaka play on the perimeter A LOT more. Biyombo will set screens for ball handlers to open things up, whilst Ibaka, Gordon, Fournier and Payton will draw enough respect to keep defenders out of the paint. There's nothing that Green, Mario, Wilcox and Augustin were doing the other night that Ibaka, AG, Fournier and Payton can't do, too.

Vucevic could be a great 6th man if he was a team player.

Good analysis. Ibaka's always been a pretty terrible screen setter. And yeah, he plays too close to the basket on offense. We need him to space the floor. Sure, given him a postup play once in a while, but when he's playing together with another big he should be at the 3 pt line a lot more.

Thanks for the analysis. What I hope we get to is a point where our 4 is dynamic. I would prefer Gordon there shooting 4 threes a game but if Ibaka can do it and also know when to bang down low then that's even better. The important thing is our 4 has to be dynamic. Know when to go outside, know when to be in the paint. Be able to ebb and flow between both naturally. Realistically our best chance of a 3pt shooter and low post banger is Ibaka, so we gotta figure that out.

Excellent write-up!

We just have to hope Vogel is preaching to these guys the same thing that we're seeing here and that it gets corrected. I don't think the players are the problem, I think it's the way they're currently playing.

Great analysis.

It really is amazing how much the paint gets clogged up with our starting five. When we went small ball and all positions were a threat to shoot besides the five the paint was so much less clogged and our offense looked smoother. Vuc just isn't going to move the needle for our starting lineup anymore in my opinion. He's clogging the paint and doesn't set screens well, && even when he's not in the paint he's hardly setting them. Biyombo is one of the best screen setters in the league and is a threat on the offensive boards not to mention a superb defender. He needs to be starting. Vuc could be very good off the bench.

This is nice work. The problem with AG at the 3 is a bit more than just about Vuc being on the floor. I agree that if we start Biz, these issues could go away. But we would still have weak shooting for a spread offense. If you move Gordon to 4 and slide in Mario then you have better shooting out there.

I think the way forward is to trade Vuc for a SF and use Ibaka and Gordon up front and rotate in Green and Biz. It balances the team out.

Regardless we all can see above that Vuc/Ibaka is killing our spacing.

Damn, some nice observation. This SL has a lot of problems. It is still small sample size of data that with have available so I'm not ready to pass judgement until a couple more games. But yes, the flaws that we have are evident.

Gordon Hayward at the deadline!

PennytoShaq wrote:This is nice work. The problem with AG at the 3 is a bit more than just about Vuc being on the floor. I agree that if we start Biz, these issues could go away. But we would still have weak shooting for a spread offense. If you move Gordon to 4 and slide in Mario then you have better shooting out there.

I think the way forward is to trade Vuc for a SF and use Ibaka and Gordon up front and rotate in Green and Biz. It balances the team out.

Regardless we all can see above that Vuc/Ibaka is killing our spacing.

Trade vucevic for which sf?

OrlandoDream wrote:Damn, some nice observation. This SL has a lot of problems. It is still small sample size of data that with have available so I'm not ready to pass judgement until a couple more games. But yes, the flaws that we have are evident.

Gordon Hayward at the deadline!

This would be great but utah have no need for vucevic as they have gobert and favors

Great analysis and examples, comforting knowing our struggles have a lot to do with spacing offensively and defensive rotations which are both new systems to these guys. Wasn't vooch supposed to be flirting with 3 point range. He has plenty plenty of opportunities to take an open 3 but never does defenses don't even go close to him that deep.

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Patrick1978 wrote:

PennytoShaq wrote:This is nice work. The problem with AG at the 3 is a bit more than just about Vuc being on the floor. I agree that if we start Biz, these issues could go away. But we would still have weak shooting for a spread offense. If you move Gordon to 4 and slide in Mario then you have better shooting out there.

I think the way forward is to trade Vuc for a SF and use Ibaka and Gordon up front and rotate in Green and Biz. It balances the team out.

Regardless we all can see above that Vuc/Ibaka is killing our spacing.

Trade vucevic for which sf?

Don't trade him, just send him to the bench. This will be Vucs 5th year with us. We know what we are getting with him every night and it's not a winning team. Start Biz and have Ibaka spread the floor more. He can hit those 3s so let's use that.

I'm not making another trade for a quick fix. Vuc frustrates me but he is still a good C with a lot of value on prob the best C contract in the NBA. I would only make a trade for a player that would significantly make us better. someone like Paul George, or Gordon Hayward. But both of those are not being traded and giving up Vuc for Gallinari is just stupid. The guy is injury prone. He's had 8 seasons and has played more then 62 games only three times. That and he is a FA in 2018 who will most likely want a max. Pass.

We're stuck with Vuc so let's make the best of him. Bench him and have him be our scorers off the bench.

OrlandoDream wrote:

Patrick1978 wrote:

PennytoShaq wrote:This is nice work. The problem with AG at the 3 is a bit more than just about Vuc being on the floor. I agree that if we start Biz, these issues could go away. But we would still have weak shooting for a spread offense. If you move Gordon to 4 and slide in Mario then you have better shooting out there.

I think the way forward is to trade Vuc for a SF and use Ibaka and Gordon up front and rotate in Green and Biz. It balances the team out.

Regardless we all can see above that Vuc/Ibaka is killing our spacing.

Trade vucevic for which sf?

Don't trade him, just send him to the bench. This will be Vucs 5th year with us. We know what we are getting with him every night and it's not a winning team. Start Biz and have Ibaka spread the floor more. He can hit those 3s so let's use that.

I'm not making another trade for a quick fix. Vuc frustrates me but he is still a good C with a lot of value on prob the best C contract in the NBA. I would only make a trade for a player that would significantly make us better. someone like Paul George, or Gordon Hayward. But both of those are not being traded and giving up Vuc for Gallinari is just stupid. The guy is injury prone. He's had 8 seasons and has played more then 62 games only three times. That and he is a FA in 2018 who will most likely want a max. Pass.

We're stuck with Vuc so let's make the best of him. Bench him and have him be our scorers off the bench.

AG is not a 4. He's built to be a 3.

However I do think vooch needs to be more physical and play down low more. He should be sitting in the paint on both ends all day errry-day

Patrick1978 wrote:

OrlandoDream wrote:Damn, some nice observation. This SL has a lot of problems. It is still small sample size of data that with have available so I'm not ready to pass judgement until a couple more games. But yes, the flaws that we have are evident.

Gordon Hayward at the deadline!

This would be great but utah have no need for vucevic as they have gobert and favors

We could find a 3rd team. Hayward trade is the most likely scenario. Jazz fans speculate and anticipate a trade for him more then any of hater core player. Rumors were swirling this summer for him too. For the right price, I think Hayward could be had. He would be awesome on this team.

OrlandoDream wrote:

Patrick1978 wrote:

OrlandoDream wrote:Damn, some nice observation. This SL has a lot of problems. It is still small sample size of data that with have available so I'm not ready to pass judgement until a couple more games. But yes, the flaws that we have are evident.

Gordon Hayward at the deadline!

This would be great but utah have no need for vucevic as they have gobert and favors

We could find a 3rd team. Hayward trade is the most likely scenario. Jazz fans speculate and anticipate a trade for him more then any of hater core player. Rumors were swirling this summer for him too. For the right price, I think Hayward could be had. He would be awesome on this team.

A Hayward trade is a highly UN-likely scenario. OrlanoDream indeed!

I don't even know if it's a necessity to change the starting lineup, to be honest. We just need to pick one of Vuc and Ibaka to be inside and one to be outside on all plays. I think both Vuc and Ibaka have decent enough range that we can and should be using them as 3pt shooters when the opportunities arise, but they won't arise as long as both of them are inside the arc.

Vuc playing from the perimeter is probably optimal because he also has fantastic passing from there. But then, Ibaka is the more established 3pt shooter between the two, and I'd imagine Vuc is probably the better post player between the two (although Ibaka has shown some real promise when he bothers to get in there).

Swapping Vuc for Biz is the other option, which I think would work equally well.

We just need screens, screens and more screens, and space for players to operate.

Or, sure, you can run Gordon at the 4 and bring in another SF, but I'd imagine that's just going to result in taking the ball out of Gordon's hands and limiting him to cuts and clean ups around the rim, especially since he's not a post up guy. That, to me, is just a waste of his potential.

Vuc's screens are terrible compared to what Biz brings.

I also disagree that Gordon is "built to play the 3". He can easily play 4 and did very well at it. Skiles had him guarding C's some games and he was killing it.

The reason I want to trade Vuc for a SF is because he will hate coming off the bench and want to get moved anyway. Plus we need more offense. We have needed a SF for a very long time.

Yes the immediate fix is to start Biz and spread Ibaka out on offense. But when Gordon is at the 4 he really was doing some great stuff on offense. Most bigger 4's dont want to chase him out to the line and he was getting great open looks.

Bensational wrote:I don't even know if it's a necessity to change the starting lineup, to be honest. We just need to pick one of Vuc and Ibaka to be inside and one to be outside on all plays. I think both Vuc and Ibaka have decent enough range that we can and should be using them as 3pt shooters when the opportunities arise, but they won't arise as long as both of them are inside the arc.

Vuc playing from the perimeter is probably optimal because he also has fantastic passing from there. But then, Ibaka is the more established 3pt shooter between the two, and I'd imagine Vuc is probably the better post player between the two (although Ibaka has shown some real promise when he bothers to get in there).

Swapping Vuc for Biz is the other option, which I think would work equally well.

We just need screens, screens and more screens, and space for players to operate.

Or, sure, you can run Gordon at the 4 and bring in another SF, but I'd imagine that's just going to result in taking the ball out of Gordon's hands and limiting him to cuts and clean ups around the rim, especially since he's not a post up guy. That, to me, is just a waste of his potential.

Thanks for putting up this thread. Love having pictures speak for themselves.

Since we have an abundance of quality bigs, I also think that we should ask them ALL to run so as to tire out the opponents.

Race to the paint and alternate who stays there based on matchups. Keep the pressure on by making things happen faster. Run staggered PNRs with the ball-handlers if the opposing bigs get back. Have Serge and Vuc pick for EACH OTHER as well to get the right match-up for post-ups. Play a deep rotation, because our 9th and 10th guys may actually be better than the other team's and we'll be used to it that way. Make it fun for us and hard for the opponents.

Using picks and playing fast will help everybody improve and leverage some effort. We need that since we don't have a take-over star on our roster.

PennytoShaq wrote:Vuc's screens are terrible compared to what Biz brings.

I also disagree that Gordon is "built to play the 3". He can easily play 4 and did very well at it. Skiles had him guarding C's some games and he was killing it.

The reason I want to trade Vuc for a SF is because he will hate coming off the bench and want to get moved anyway. Plus we need more offense. We have needed a SF for a very long time.

Yes the immediate fix is to start Biz and spread Ibaka out on offense. But when Gordon is at the 4 he really was doing some great stuff on offense. Most bigger 4's dont want to chase him out to the line and he was getting great open looks.

which sf do you want vucevic to trade for?

Patrick1978 wrote:

PennytoShaq wrote:Vuc's screens are terrible compared to what Biz brings.

I also disagree that Gordon is "built to play the 3". He can easily play 4 and did very well at it. Skiles had him guarding C's some games and he was killing it.

The reason I want to trade Vuc for a SF is because he will hate coming off the bench and want to get moved anyway. Plus we need more offense. We have needed a SF for a very long time.

Yes the immediate fix is to start Biz and spread Ibaka out on offense. But when Gordon is at the 4 he really was doing some great stuff on offense. Most bigger 4's dont want to chase him out to the line and he was getting great open looks.

which sf do you want vucevic to trade for?

I feel like this is one of those trick questions where whomever I suggest gets panned immediately.

First off, we wait and see who becomes available towards the deadline. Someone will.

If you need names, I would take Gallinari here. Injury history be damned, he is a very nice fit for us, plus he expires after the season so we aren't locked in on him if we don't want to be.

Thats just one guy. As the season progresses, we will see names floating around that we can make a play for.