Game 56: Orlando Magic (20-35) @ Dallas Mavericks (21-32) - 9 PM ET

[LBPTarHeel27]

Your last lines are filled with incredible optimism and I like that....but it is faaaaaaaaar off from reality. We do not have a single player on this roster that looks like a future all-star....not even close.

Not saying any are a sure bet, but Gordon is 21 years old. If he can actually shoot with any consistency (a huge if), he is going to be a two way player since we know his defense is already stifling at times. Those multiple 30 point games are never going to be the norm, but anywhere from 16-20 and he is going to be all-star material if our team is ever good. Jokic and AG led a lot of second year players as far as advanced stats went, and Jokic looks like a magician out there (no pun intended, though I wish he was on our team). I don't think it's a pipe dream to see AG making the all star game in his career, just off of his defensive prowess and glimpses of his offense firing on all cylinders. Just need to see it more frequently on that side.

Way too early to give up on certain players on this team, as bad as our team has looked. If the right offer is made, we can part with literally anybody on this team... but we can't make trades for damaged goods anymore.

Again, I love the optimism. I was once there but I have been crushed and can no longer see the glass half full.

Gordon does still have a lot of potential....but so have several other guys that have come and gone.

If there is a theme to our rebuild it is "If he can actually shoot with any consistency (a huge if)".

Harris couldn't shoot 3's.
Dipo couldn't shoot at all.
Elfrid couldn't shoot at all.
Gordon couldn't shoot at all.
Mario was supposed to be able to shoot...but isn't shooting well, at all.

If anyone has the potential to be on the all-star level...it is AG...but he is further from reaching that point than Elf is, IMO. It is incredibly optimistic...especially after everything we have seen the last 5 years...to think that AG will ever been an all-star. Holding out hope for that is just setting yourself up to be disappointed, yet again.

I am not saying give up on Gordon and trade him...I am just saying that we should (in no way, shape, or form) be truly building around Aaron Gordon. I want to hold on to him and see if he can develop...but I am not building my offense to work around him or even with AG as a key cog.

You guys remember when we drafted Dwight? We didn't immediately give him the reigns to the offense. His scoring came purely from put backs and hustle plays. He worked his ass off (with help from Hill and Cliff) and developed a back to the basket game and eventually, they started to run the offense through him. The answer is not just to put in all the young guys and let them run the show. That is how you allow them to develop bad habits and lose confidence.

[thelead]

First time I've ever turned the game off (at the half) and didn't even think to check back in. I'm ready for everyone to be fired and traded.

[Last Guardian]

Please give us fans something worth watching, like a young team that is hungry and trying to prove themselves.

I want to see what Vogel can do if we take away these vets that he leans on. Just give him a young roster. I still think he can be a more player friendly version of Skiles.

[Dubious Kitty]

Please give us fans something worth watching, like a young team that is hungry and trying to prove themselves.

I want to see what Vogel can do if we take away these vets that he leans on. Just give him a young roster. I still think he can be a more player friendly version of Skiles.

Difference between us and the Miami Heat. I live in Miami so ive been to a few games -- those guys play with solid effort every game. They may not have the talent to win consistently but effort is never an issue.

[JAY DASH]

The board got what it wanted and this is the outcome. Mario played 35 minutes, got to shoot the ball, and we got annihilated. Y'all said that's what you wanted so why are you mad at Vogel? We don't have a good team. You guys still think Serge is a good player and Mario's a future all-star and that's why you blame Vogel. He's not the problem. The problem is you have a warped sense of reality when it comes to the talent on this roster.

There was a thread where most of you honestly thought we would win 40 games. That's when I knew you guys had no clue how poorly constructed our roster is and how much we took a step back when we traded for a jump shooting PF that can't bang with real big men. You have to take the Magic fan shades off and be able to see things for what they are. If you want Mario playing 35 minutes and being more of a focal point, we're going to take some severe ass whoopings. That's just the way it is, and if we're tanking that's fine. Just don't complain after the losses.

[rcklsscognition]

Vuc interview was pretty telling. "Issues" festering since the start of the season, getting worse, will talk about them when the time is right.

"We try everyday to find a way to fix it, but there's a lot of issues to fix, a lot..."

[Flannerz]

If I had a strange fetish about trainwrecks, I'd be very aroused about this team.

It's enough to send us off the rails

[Xatticus]

The board got what it wanted and this is the outcome. Mario played 35 minutes, got to shoot the ball, and we got annihilated. Y'all said that's what you wanted so why are you mad at Vogel? We don't have a good team. You guys still think Serge is a good player and Mario's a future all-star and that's why you blame Vogel. He's not the problem. The problem is you have a warped sense of reality when it comes to the talent on this roster.

There was a thread where most of you honestly thought we would win 40 games. That's when I knew you guys had no clue how poorly constructed our roster is and how much we took a step back when we traded for a jump shooting PF that can't bang with real big men. You have to take the Magic fan shades off and be able to see things for what they are. If you want Mario playing 35 minutes and being more of a focal point, we're going to take some severe ass whoopings. That's just the way it is, and if we're tanking that's fine. Just don't complain after the losses.

Who's upset? Let's not characterize the entirety of the board with blanket statements. I was pleased to see that we lost and that Hezonja played extended minutes. I didn't watch the game (because nobody had a gun to my head), but from what I've read, Hezonja was a bright spot aside from his shooting struggles. I'm hopeful that last night's game is indicative of the remainder of our season.

[Furinkazan]

The board got what it wanted and this is the outcome. Mario played 35 minutes, got to shoot the ball, and we got annihilated. Y'all said that's what you wanted so why are you mad at Vogel? We don't have a good team. You guys still think Serge is a good player and Mario's a future all-star and that's why you blame Vogel. He's not the problem. The problem is you have a warped sense of reality when it comes to the talent on this roster.

There was a thread where most of you honestly thought we would win 40 games. That's when I knew you guys had no clue how poorly constructed our roster is and how much we took a step back when we traded for a jump shooting PF that can't bang with real big men. You have to take the Magic fan shades off and be able to see things for what they are. If you want Mario playing 35 minutes and being more of a focal point, we're going to take some severe ass whoopings. That's just the way it is, and if we're tanking that's fine. Just don't complain after the losses.

You act like Hezonja took 30+ shots in his 35 mins

[woosah]

Players are not happy with Vogel. They are playing below to their level, you know that they dont want to keep playing for this coach.

many of them should look at themselves too. not like they are putting forth great performances.

I'm sure they are, which amplifies the frustration. You see it in all of their faces. No team should ever quit on a coach. On the flip side, players should not be in the position to be lost only a few months into the season. You saw Vucevic and Payton benched because of our record (which, in retrospect, was a move that did not need to happen). They played great off the bench but we still were not winning much more than the previous lineup and then we went on an even bigger skid afterwards. Minute allocations made no sense and you saw many players frustrated about their roles on the team, justified or not.

We also have nobody that wants to step up and take accountability. Vuc has never been the leader type, Payton would rather be a quiet leader, Fournier is Fournier, Ibaka tried to do it then just sort of stopped, AG has the capability to be that but probably isn't taken seriously enough yet. Biyombo can do it vocally but his play nor minutes have been consistent enough to do so.

Not really replying to you specifically but the thoughts presented in all of these quotes, It's gotta be the players. JV, Skiles and Vogel have repeated the same patterns. It's like the players have learned that if they just quit then they magic will get a new guy or something. The FO needs to just go Pat RIley and tell them like Pat told Lebron, Spo is the coach. Yall work it out. I don't think Vogel is as bad as they are making him look, and i don't think these players are this bad either. THey aren't all stars but, why is it that the exact moment we were mathematically eliminated last year THEN we started playing well, together and started winning meaningless games? It's like the players (certain ones) decided that they were not going to play for Skiles and his goal was not gonna be met by them.It was right after Tobes was traded. Whatever happened with him seemed to make the others angry, and they acted like it. I know it's conspiracy talk, but you see the same ish this year in the attitude. Losing by 30 every night? That is effort. They don't look like they care at ALL.

Also, can somebody expound on Vogel repeating that they do not respect the game? He said something game before last that they went out there like a 60 win team and acted like Philly was a 20 win team? How can they be cocky with like one win more lol? He was furious. I just want to know because i didn't watch.

[MagicMatic]

many of them should look at themselves too. not like they are putting forth great performances.

I'm sure they are, which amplifies the frustration. You see it in all of their faces. No team should ever quit on a coach. On the flip side, players should not be in the position to be lost only a few months into the season. You saw Vucevic and Payton benched because of our record (which, in retrospect, was a move that did not need to happen). They played great off the bench but we still were not winning much more than the previous lineup and then we went on an even bigger skid afterwards. Minute allocations made no sense and you saw many players frustrated about their roles on the team, justified or not.

We also have nobody that wants to step up and take accountability. Vuc has never been the leader type, Payton would rather be a quiet leader, Fournier is Fournier, Ibaka tried to do it then just sort of stopped, AG has the capability to be that but probably isn't taken seriously enough yet. Biyombo can do it vocally but his play nor minutes have been consistent enough to do so.

Not really replying to you specifically but the thoughts presented in all of these quotes, It's gotta be the players. JV, Skiles and Vogel have repeated the same patterns. It's like the players have learned that if they just quit then they magic will get a new guy or something. The FO needs to just go Pat RIley and tell them like Pat told Lebron, Spo is the coach. Yall work it out. I don't think Vogel is as bad as they are making him look, and i don't think these players are this bad either. THey aren't all stars but, why is it that the exact moment we were mathematically eliminated last year THEN we started playing well, together and started winning meaningless games? It's like the players (certain ones) decided that they were not going to play for Skiles and his goal was not gonna be met by them.It was right after Tobes was traded. Whatever happened with him seemed to make the others angry, and they acted like it. I know it's conspiracy talk, but you see the same ish this year in the attitude. Losing by 30 every night? That is effort. They don't look like they care at ALL.

Also, can somebody expound on Vogel repeating that they do not respect the game? He said something game before last that they went out there like a 60 win team and acted like Philly was a 20 win team? How can they be cocky with like one win more lol? He was furious. I just want to know because i didn't watch.

None of these players care. This is a combination of role players that have been consistently bad since JV.

I don't get how everyone keeps saying it's Vogel/ Skiles/ JV/ etc. fault, but we have essentially had the same talent level the entire time. This magic roster is soft. I don't care what people say about coaching in the NBA if you dont have talent you don't win. Simple.

Having a good coach to manage talent helps, but what is there to manage if you don't have the roster? It's not like Vogel has the Cleveland or Warriors job and is choking away wins to sub par teams. He has the magic roster and he's losing against equal to better talent -shocking.

[pepe1991]

I'm sure they are, which amplifies the frustration. You see it in all of their faces. No team should ever quit on a coach. On the flip side, players should not be in the position to be lost only a few months into the season. You saw Vucevic and Payton benched because of our record (which, in retrospect, was a move that did not need to happen). They played great off the bench but we still were not winning much more than the previous lineup and then we went on an even bigger skid afterwards. Minute allocations made no sense and you saw many players frustrated about their roles on the team, justified or not.

We also have nobody that wants to step up and take accountability. Vuc has never been the leader type, Payton would rather be a quiet leader, Fournier is Fournier, Ibaka tried to do it then just sort of stopped, AG has the capability to be that but probably isn't taken seriously enough yet. Biyombo can do it vocally but his play nor minutes have been consistent enough to do so.

Not really replying to you specifically but the thoughts presented in all of these quotes, It's gotta be the players. JV, Skiles and Vogel have repeated the same patterns. It's like the players have learned that if they just quit then they magic will get a new guy or something. The FO needs to just go Pat RIley and tell them like Pat told Lebron, Spo is the coach. Yall work it out. I don't think Vogel is as bad as they are making him look, and i don't think these players are this bad either. THey aren't all stars but, why is it that the exact moment we were mathematically eliminated last year THEN we started playing well, together and started winning meaningless games? It's like the players (certain ones) decided that they were not going to play for Skiles and his goal was not gonna be met by them.It was right after Tobes was traded. Whatever happened with him seemed to make the others angry, and they acted like it. I know it's conspiracy talk, but you see the same ish this year in the attitude. Losing by 30 every night? That is effort. They don't look like they care at ALL.

Also, can somebody expound on Vogel repeating that they do not respect the game? He said something game before last that they went out there like a 60 win team and acted like Philly was a 20 win team? How can they be cocky with like one win more lol? He was furious. I just want to know because i didn't watch.

None of these players care. This is a combination of role players that have been consistently bad since JV.

I don't get how everyone keeps saying it's Vogel/ Skiles/ JV/ etc. fault, but we have essentially had the same talent level the entire time. This magic roster is soft. I don't care what people say about coaching in the NBA if you dont have talent you don't win. Simple.

Having a good coach to manage talent helps, but what is there to manage if you don't have the roster? It's not like Vogel has the Cleveland or Warriors job and is choking away wins to sub par teams. He has the magic roster and he's losing against equal to better talent -shocking.

I'm looking at 76ers, they didn't change coach, but they got some high attitude - "win is everything " guys like Embiid, Šarić even Roudriguez along with few great vets like Henderson and they turned things around. Fans are supporting them even when they lose because they fight for every ball. Now, even without Embiid they are still competitive.
Magic need to go in FA and find right vets and players who just hate losing to turn this around.

This Dallas game was pure tragedy to watch. You see Vučević play, he tried few times to shoot over F-ind DIrk who is oldest starting C ( along his age he never really played C before anyway ) in the league and what Vučević did? He tried to post him up and score ? Nop, he took stupid jumpers over him and walked down on defense.
Ibaka had size adventage over Barnes, so he went in post and tried to take adventage of missmatch? Nop, took stupid jumpers over him.
That team literally gave up on 14-10 when they had lead
Hezonja is total scrub at this point but when he missed layup he was actually upset about it, and was bi**ing about teams defense and pointing out to Rudež and others couple of times ( had 2 chasedown block attemps), rest of a team simply doesn't care. They lose, for them it's just another day where they collect money. Jeff Green is worst example of player who is there just to collect money. He puts just enough effort to not get cut from roster and saves enough energy so he can hit a clubs or do whatever he does later. Dude didn't play defense once since preseason.
CJ Watson is cracking jokes with Dallas players when team is down by 35 . This team is just filled with natural losers who simply don't care enough to give their max effort every night. That's why i loved Oladipo, dude was disgusted with losing and nobody ever question his effort.

[Mc-o]

The board got what it wanted and this is the outcome. Mario played 35 minutes, got to shoot the ball, and we got annihilated. Y'all said that's what you wanted so why are you mad at Vogel? We don't have a good team. You guys still think Serge is a good player and Mario's a future all-star and that's why you blame Vogel. He's not the problem. The problem is you have a warped sense of reality when it comes to the talent on this roster.

There was a thread where most of you honestly thought we would win 40 games. That's when I knew you guys had no clue how poorly constructed our roster is and how much we took a step back when we traded for a jump shooting PF that can't bang with real big men. You have to take the Magic fan shades off and be able to see things for what they are. If you want Mario playing 35 minutes and being more of a focal point, we're going to take some severe ass whoopings. That's just the way it is, and if we're tanking that's fine. Just don't complain after the losses.

Its not about the losing it is that we have a team currently not caring about the season and has totally tuned out the coach. We got killed by 30 not because of Mario but because the majority of the players were blatantly playing half assed. No one is trying to play defense... every offensive possession looks like a pick up game. its not about winning 40 games , but the fact that we have a team of guys not even trying this early in the season is a bad bad look and their is more going on behind the scense then we know.

[Mc-o]

many of them should look at themselves too. not like they are putting forth great performances.

I'm sure they are, which amplifies the frustration. You see it in all of their faces. No team should ever quit on a coach. On the flip side, players should not be in the position to be lost only a few months into the season. You saw Vucevic and Payton benched because of our record (which, in retrospect, was a move that did not need to happen). They played great off the bench but we still were not winning much more than the previous lineup and then we went on an even bigger skid afterwards. Minute allocations made no sense and you saw many players frustrated about their roles on the team, justified or not.

We also have nobody that wants to step up and take accountability. Vuc has never been the leader type, Payton would rather be a quiet leader, Fournier is Fournier, Ibaka tried to do it then just sort of stopped, AG has the capability to be that but probably isn't taken seriously enough yet. Biyombo can do it vocally but his play nor minutes have been consistent enough to do so.

Not really replying to you specifically but the thoughts presented in all of these quotes, It's gotta be the players. JV, Skiles and Vogel have repeated the same patterns. It's like the players have learned that if they just quit then they magic will get a new guy or something. The FO needs to just go Pat RIley and tell them like Pat told Lebron, Spo is the coach. Yall work it out. I don't think Vogel is as bad as they are making him look, and i don't think these players are this bad either. THey aren't all stars but, why is it that the exact moment we were mathematically eliminated last year THEN we started playing well, together and started winning meaningless games? It's like the players (certain ones) decided that they were not going to play for Skiles and his goal was not gonna be met by them.It was right after Tobes was traded. Whatever happened with him seemed to make the others angry, and they acted like it. I know it's conspiracy talk, but you see the same ish this year in the attitude. Losing by 30 every night? That is effort. They don't look like they care at ALL.

Also, can somebody expound on Vogel repeating that they do not respect the game? He said something game before last that they went out there like a 60 win team and acted like Philly was a 20 win team? How can they be cocky with like one win more lol? He was furious. I just want to know because i didn't watch.

This year has been different than years past. Whatever is going on vogel has completely loss the team a lot earlier than years past. Last year our team had a meltdown due to losing a lot of close games and making newbie mistakes , players were not as outwardly defiant of the coach, also their is obvious chemistry issues within the team. I know this roster is flawed and players are deserving of blame but Vogel has not done a good job at running a system that maximizes the talents of his players. Skiles had the team playing better with less talent and experience on the roster.

[woosah]

Not really replying to you specifically but the thoughts presented in all of these quotes, It's gotta be the players. JV, Skiles and Vogel have repeated the same patterns. It's like the players have learned that if they just quit then they magic will get a new guy or something. The FO needs to just go Pat RIley and tell them like Pat told Lebron, Spo is the coach. Yall work it out. I don't think Vogel is as bad as they are making him look, and i don't think these players are this bad either. THey aren't all stars but, why is it that the exact moment we were mathematically eliminated last year THEN we started playing well, together and started winning meaningless games? It's like the players (certain ones) decided that they were not going to play for Skiles and his goal was not gonna be met by them.It was right after Tobes was traded. Whatever happened with him seemed to make the others angry, and they acted like it. I know it's conspiracy talk, but you see the same ish this year in the attitude. Losing by 30 every night? That is effort. They don't look like they care at ALL.

Also, can somebody expound on Vogel repeating that they do not respect the game? He said something game before last that they went out there like a 60 win team and acted like Philly was a 20 win team? How can they be cocky with like one win more lol? He was furious. I just want to know because i didn't watch.

This year has been different than years past. Whatever is going on vogel has completely loss the team a lot earlier than years past. Last year our team had a meltdown due to losing a lot of close games and making newbie mistakes , players were not as outwardly defiant of the coach, also their is obvious chemistry issues within the team. I know this roster is flawed and players are deserving of blame but Vogel has not done a good job at running a system that maximizes the talents of his players. Skiles had the team playing better with less talent and experience on the roster.

I don't agree. Last year the meltdown started early Jan. This year about the same. Skiles lost them about the same time and like i said i think it had something to do with how Tobes was handled but why is just a theory. Skiles did not do things to put EP in a good position to succeed either, and actually neither did JV who put the ball in Vic's hand and put EP off ball. I guess the experiment was supposed to help Vic's handles and help EP learn to play off ball, but it did not help Elf because his shot was/is completely broken. It is not different. The team was more cohesive and together before Skiles even got here, and Kyle and Tobias were very good glue guys who organized summer practices and welcomed all newbies. They felt like and still call each other brothers. Then Skiles came in here and said F everyone get him more vets. They abandoned the development and brought in the oh so stellar Brandon Jennings and Illyasova. That began with Skiles, and then tried to fix it over the summer and we broke it even more. Now we have cliques of players with different agendas and no one likes or trusts each other. Anyway i am rambling. I don't agree that it's different, only in that it is worse.

[Mc-o]

Not really replying to you specifically but the thoughts presented in all of these quotes, It's gotta be the players. JV, Skiles and Vogel have repeated the same patterns. It's like the players have learned that if they just quit then they magic will get a new guy or something. The FO needs to just go Pat RIley and tell them like Pat told Lebron, Spo is the coach. Yall work it out. I don't think Vogel is as bad as they are making him look, and i don't think these players are this bad either. THey aren't all stars but, why is it that the exact moment we were mathematically eliminated last year THEN we started playing well, together and started winning meaningless games? It's like the players (certain ones) decided that they were not going to play for Skiles and his goal was not gonna be met by them.It was right after Tobes was traded. Whatever happened with him seemed to make the others angry, and they acted like it. I know it's conspiracy talk, but you see the same ish this year in the attitude. Losing by 30 every night? That is effort. They don't look like they care at ALL.

Also, can somebody expound on Vogel repeating that they do not respect the game? He said something game before last that they went out there like a 60 win team and acted like Philly was a 20 win team? How can they be cocky with like one win more lol? He was furious. I just want to know because i didn't watch.

This year has been different than years past. Whatever is going on vogel has completely loss the team a lot earlier than years past. Last year our team had a meltdown due to losing a lot of close games and making newbie mistakes , players were not as outwardly defiant of the coach, also their is obvious chemistry issues within the team. I know this roster is flawed and players are deserving of blame but Vogel has not done a good job at running a system that maximizes the talents of his players. Skiles had the team playing better with less talent and experience on the roster.

I don't agree. Last year the meltdown started early Jan. This year about the same. Skiles lost them about the same time and like i said i think it had something to do with how Tobes was handled but why is just a theory. Skiles did not do things to put EP in a good position to succeed either, and actually neither did JV who put the ball in Vic's hand and put EP off ball. I guess the experiment was supposed to help Vic's handles and help EP learn to play off ball, but it did not help Elf because his shot was/is completely broken. It is not different. The team was more cohesive and together before Skiles even got here, and Kyle and Tobias were very good glue guys who organized summer practices and welcomed all newbies. They felt like and still call each other brothers. Then Skiles came in here and said F everyone get him more vets. They abandoned the development and brought in the oh so stellar Brandon Jennings and Illyasova. That began with Skiles, and then tried to fix it over the summer and we broke it even more. Now we have cliques of players with different agendas and no one likes or trusts each other. Anyway i am rambling. I don't agree that it's different, only in that it is worse.

the January meltdown had to do with the team giving up a bunch of fourth quarter leads and not being a ble to close out close games it wasn't because the team quit on skiles. I know everything wasn't perfect but the team never gave up the way they are doing now and this early in the season. Again its not all vogels fault, there is enough blame for everyone involved and Vogel deserves part of the blame as well.

[SOUL]

I don't agree. Last year the meltdown started early Jan. This year about the same. Skiles lost them about the same time and like i said i think it had something to do with how Tobes was handled but why is just a theory. Skiles did not do things to put EP in a good position to succeed either, and actually neither did JV who put the ball in Vic's hand and put EP off ball. I guess the experiment was supposed to help Vic's handles and help EP learn to play off ball, but it did not help Elf because his shot was/is completely broken. It is not different. The team was more cohesive and together before Skiles even got here, and Kyle and Tobias were very good glue guys who organized summer practices and welcomed all newbies. They felt like and still call each other brothers. Then Skiles came in here and said F everyone get him more vets. They abandoned the development and brought in the oh so stellar Brandon Jennings and Illyasova. That began with Skiles, and then tried to fix it over the summer and we broke it even more. Now we have cliques of players with different agendas and no one likes or trusts each other. Anyway i am rambling. I don't agree that it's different, only in that it is worse.

This is my point though. Hennigan's acquisitions clearly didn't work, but most of us here thought we had enough talent to still make a playoff spot. It's his job now to find players that give a **** and want to win. Just like it's on the players to play with effort and energy. Just like it's on the coach to find combinations of players that play well together and look like an actual NBA team.

When we have a good thing going, which was rare this year, it was always short lived because Vogel went back to some garbage lineup where he'd bring Jeff Green back in (literally advanced stat's worst nightmare) or play Watson who was shooting in the mid 20's half of the season. Or Rudjez who does nothing half of the time out there. It's hard to say Vogel is free from any part of the garbage we've endured this year. When the entire team is playing like poop and he's trying to find answers, it's not really on him. We just have to play better. But it still also is a bit because he's the coach. Half of our team are players that were successful on another team for one reason or another yet look gimped here because there seems to be no real structure.

It seems like a lot of people just don't put any value into coaching and I disagree. He's the most important part of the team for a young team and I'm not very pleased at Vogel after being SUPER excited about his hire.

[Audi]

Pathetic. This team needs to play better and with more effort...but not so much better and with so much effort that they win - 'cause then I'll be furious. Like...they need play a certain particular way that toes the line between winning and losing while still making a win a certainty.

[MagicMatic]

I don't agree. Last year the meltdown started early Jan. This year about the same. Skiles lost them about the same time and like i said i think it had something to do with how Tobes was handled but why is just a theory. Skiles did not do things to put EP in a good position to succeed either, and actually neither did JV who put the ball in Vic's hand and put EP off ball. I guess the experiment was supposed to help Vic's handles and help EP learn to play off ball, but it did not help Elf because his shot was/is completely broken. It is not different. The team was more cohesive and together before Skiles even got here, and Kyle and Tobias were very good glue guys who organized summer practices and welcomed all newbies. They felt like and still call each other brothers. Then Skiles came in here and said F everyone get him more vets. They abandoned the development and brought in the oh so stellar Brandon Jennings and Illyasova. That began with Skiles, and then tried to fix it over the summer and we broke it even more. Now we have cliques of players with different agendas and no one likes or trusts each other. Anyway i am rambling. I don't agree that it's different, only in that it is worse.

This is my point though. Hennigan's acquisitions clearly didn't work, but most of us here thought we had enough talent to still make a playoff spot. It's his job now to find players that give a **** and want to win. Just like it's on the players to play with effort and energy. Just like it's on the coach to find combinations of players that play well together and look like an actual NBA team.

When we have a good thing going, which was rare this year, it was always short lived because Vogel went back to some garbage lineup where he'd bring Jeff Green back in (literally advanced stat's worst nightmare) or play Watson who was shooting in the mid 20's half of the season. Or Rudjez who does nothing half of the time out there. It's hard to say Vogel is free from any part of the garbage we've endured this year. When the entire team is playing like poop and he's trying to find answers, it's not really on him. We just have to play better. But it still also is a bit because he's the coach. Half of our team are players that were successful on another team for one reason or another yet look gimped here because there seems to be no real structure.

It seems like a lot of people just don't put any value into coaching and I disagree. He's the most important part of the team for a young team and I'm not very pleased at Vogel after being SUPER excited about his hire.

People should put value into coaching if there is enough talent to coach, otherwise they aren't being realistic.

I don't think people are underestimating the value of coaching as much as people are overestimating players perception of their own team. The players aren't dumb, they can look at their own roster and gauge whether or not they have enough talent amongst themselves. The players don't believe in themselves because they know winning at this juncture is fruitless and the team has no synergy. Are they supposed to smile and pretend like this roster isn't a train wreck?

It's not like Kenny Atkinson's seat is hot because they have an atrocious record, but people somehow can look past it because their roster is dog sh**.

This being said, I'm glad we are tanking.

[Magic_Kingdom]

You can't blame Vogel for this mess. This team quit on Skiles at the same time, quit on JV at the same time. It's at this point in the season they realize they don't have the talent and cash in their chips. I don't think it can be stressed enough how devoid of talent Hennigan's teams have been throughout this rebuild.

But there is something else -- Payton and Vucevic simply do not bring it every night, and they are supposed to be key players. Two straight coaches -- Skiles and Vogel -- have said publicly that Elf doesn't play hard every night. All players have a low energy game every once in a while. But these guys have them often, and that's a huge problem. Vogel has benched Elf twice. Whether he is right or wrong for doing that is certainly debatable, but what is not debatable is he sees something in Payton's effort that he doesn't like. It might even be something that is not as obvious to us, but Skiles made several thinly veiled comments about Elf too. And your PG should be a Type A leader, Alpha Male if possible. Elf is a quiet kid. As for Vuc, he flat-out takes games off.

Oladipo played hard. He's gone. Tobias didn't play as consistently hard as Dipo but you could tell he hated losing. There is no one left with heart.