RealGM

Posted: **Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:30 am**

So the big lineup didnt work out for us defensively. But is defense really our problem?

http://therin.gr/odEkmtA

We will continue to see players with Rondo’s player profile — Elfrid Payton and Kris Dunn come to mind — but we’ll never see them rise as high. Three-point shooting is simply too important. A perimeter player who can’t space the floor is a liability. Driving lanes wither and die; pick-and-rolls become easier to smother. The only worse time to be a guard without a jumper is next year.
When you look at today’s great point guards you notice two things: There are a lot of them (with more on the way) and many can shoot the ball until flames burst from their fingertips. And if they’re not great shooters, they have other ways to create efficient offense. James Harden is shooting a relatively average 35 percent from deep this season, but he generates 11 foul shots a game and shoots 85 percent from the stripe. Russell Westbrook’s shooting touch falls off outside of midrange, but his nuclear jets and eagerness to create contact make him among the most destructive players in the league. Giannis Antetokounmpo can’t really shoot at all, but who cares when you can get to the rim from half court in three steps?

The trend these days seem to be effective these days when you have guys that can shoot from 3.

The most basic play in basketball is the pick and roll. But how do you run a pick and roll effectively when the one using the pick isn't a triple threat Elf is a good passer and can drive but can he shoot?

Perhaps with this year's draft, we may be able to find a solution for this position long term?

If we are considering to tank, should we consider trading him now to avoid devaluation of his stock when this year's draft is guard heavy?

Posted: **Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:38 am**

If he isn't in attack mode 75% of the time, yes.

Also, did not read the article. Elf has shown that he can get to the rim whenever he wants. He has also proven that he can finish in the paint. He just needs to do it way more often. If he can't, then the answer to your question is yes.

Posted: **Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:39 am**

His tenure here is coming to end very soon. You have to play in a team that is surrounded by 3 point threat in all other positions to a PG of elf to succeed. Rondo worked bc he was playing alongside 3 HOF. I still think we can succeed with him but we need the rest of the team to be 3Pt threat and they are not. AG going back to the 4 still doesnt make him a reliable 3pt shooter. Only way is to start Evan with Mario and hope they hit it consistently. I dont know why but I feel like Ross is gonna play well alongside EP. A shooter who EP is gonna be constantly looking for.

But yeah, if we leave this draft or have a chance to move up in the draft to snap Ball, Fultz, or Smith Jr, I think EP is gone.

Posted: **Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:44 am**

Elfrid will never be a starter on a good team in today's NBA. That's pretty much inarguable. But I do think he could be useful as a guy off the bench so I would like to keep him. Shooting is way too important at the guard position for Elfrid to play major minutes at the position in the playoffs.

Posted: **Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:51 am**

Our entire lineup is has players with "obsolete" styles. Ibaka aside, who's gone now.

A PG that can get to the rim with ease and has good court vision but isn't a great shooter.
A SG that can shoot and drive but turns the ball over a lot and has bad court vision.
A SF/PF that is still finding his game and impacts the game in different areas but isn't a consistent shooter.
A C that can rebound and has an arsenal of offensive moves but can't get to the line and is in love with the mid-range which makes his efficiency worse than it should be.

One or two of these guys on a team with players that compliment their game is fine. Having four of them is an issue.

Posted: **Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:16 am**

John Wall couldnt hit a 3 ptr until his 4th season. Eric Bledsoe is ranked 26th in 3 pt% for PG's. Westbrook at 33%, at 24th. you dont have to be a 3 pt gunner to be a good PG in the league

Posted: **Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:17 am**

OrlandoDream wrote:His tenure here is coming to end very soon. You have to play in a team that is surrounded by 3 point threat in all other positions to a PG of elf to succeed. Rondo worked bc he was playing alongside 3 HOF. I still think we can succeed with him but we need the rest of the team to be 3Pt threat and they are not. AG going back to the 4 still doesnt make him a reliable 3pt shooter. Only way is to start Evan with Mario and hope they hit it consistently. I dont know why but I feel like Ross is gonna play well alongside EP. A shooter who EP is gonna be constantly looking for.

But yeah, if we leave this draft or have a chance to move up in the draft to snap Ball, Fultz, or Smith Jr, I think EP is gone.

Westbrook has never been a 3 pt threat, his teams have been threats

Posted: **Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:20 am**

The problem for Payton is not just that he can't shoot 3's. It's that he doesn't score efficiently. He's done a much better job finishing around the rim this year, but he doesn't draw many fouls, and when he does, he shoots a putrid (albeit improved) 66% from the line. His overall true shooting is just 50%. It's the totality of his scoring shortcomings that make his game obsolete.

Posted: **Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:22 am**

tiderulz wrote:John Wall couldnt hit a 3 ptr until his 4th season. Eric Bledsoe is ranked 26th in 3 pt% for PG's. Westbrook at 33%, at 24th. you dont have to be a 3 pt gunner to be a good PG in the league

Wall eventually had to hit that shot.

Wall, Bledsoe and Westbrook are also elite athletes with nonstop motor. Elfrid...

Posted: **Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:01 am**

I like elf. I still don't think he's been surrounded by a good enough supporting cast of shooters to see what he can really do. He struggles with teams that protect the paint really good. He's had some really good games this year. Some games he's been really good for a quarter and then sat for most of the next quarter. I'd like to see elfrid get the chance to play 35 minutes when he's on and dialed in to see what kind of numbers he could put up. I'm not ready to give up on elf. I think he can be great.

Posted: **Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:10 am**

SOUL wrote:Our entire lineup is has players with "obsolete" styles. Ibaka aside, who's gone now.

A PG that can get to the rim with ease and has good court vision but isn't a great shooter.
A SG that can shoot and drive but turns the ball over a lot and has bad court vision.
A SF/PF that is still finding his game and impacts the game in different areas but isn't a consistent shooter.
A C that can rebound and has an arsenal of offensive moves but can't get to the line and is in love with the mid-range which makes his efficiency worse than it should be.

One or two of these guys on a team with players that compliment their game is fine. Having four of them is an issue.

Pretty much nailed it.

This collection of players don't work without a go-to player carrying the team. They work with specific roster combinations capable of masking their glaring inefficiencies.

Posted: **Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:57 am**

Rob Hennigan has done him a major disservice with his roster construction. You gotta put shooters around this kid and space the floor so he can get in the paint. Another franchise that knows what it's doing will utilize him better

Posted: **Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:15 am**

MagicMatic wrote:
SOUL wrote:Our entire lineup is has players with "obsolete" styles. Ibaka aside, who's gone now.

A PG that can get to the rim with ease and has good court vision but isn't a great shooter.
A SG that can shoot and drive but turns the ball over a lot and has bad court vision.
A SF/PF that is still finding his game and impacts the game in different areas but isn't a consistent shooter.
A C that can rebound and has an arsenal of offensive moves but can't get to the line and is in love with the mid-range which makes his efficiency worse than it should be.

One or two of these guys on a team with players that compliment their game is fine. Having four of them is an issue.

Pretty much nailed it.

This collection of players don't work without a go-to player carrying the team. They work with specific roster combinations capable of masking their glaring inefficiencies.

Agreed but also add in that we have a coach whose style is woefully obsolete. Defensive coaches will not win you a championship. Look at Steve Clifford, Vogel with Indy, and Quinn Snyder. You have to score 110-120 points a game to win these days. 86-77 type scores just aren't getting to get you and anywhere as much as I respect the Utah Jazz they are going nowhere any time soon because they can't score enough to beat anyone in a playoff series....

Posted: **Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:17 am**

Give him the keys for real. Actually COMMIT to him. Let him be the driving force. Let him play over 30 mpg. Then we'll see.

Posted: **Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:48 am**

When he's on, he's a joy to watch...fierce competitor/better than average decision maker. Not sure why he doesn't get to the line enough. Some nights, he is able to punish teams who back off him (like Wall) - that's not the same as being a great shooter. Incremental improvements in his shooting and getting to the line (ref's respect?) are enough for me. I like his intensity and BBIQ. I think he's been crapped on by Skiles and confused this year...this was a triple double threat as a rookie.

Posted: **Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:08 am**

Jameerthefear wrote:Elfrid will never be a starter on a good team in today's NBA. That's pretty much inarguable. But I do think he could be useful as a guy off the bench so I would like to keep him. Shooting is way too important at the guard position for Elfrid to play major minutes at the position in the playoffs.

Agreed

Sent from my XT1650 using RealGM mobile app

Posted: **Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:45 am**

tiderulz wrote:John Wall couldnt hit a 3 ptr until his 4th season. Eric Bledsoe is ranked 26th in 3 pt% for PG's. Westbrook at 33%, at 24th. you dont have to be a 3 pt gunner to be a good PG in the league

Holly Jesus come on. Look at that names. All 3 of them are elite athletes. Wall from gates was one of best PG defenders and one of best passer out there. Even in his rookie year he was better passer than Elf is now. Took him one year to become more effective, on more points than Elf has ever been. ( by TS%).

Westbrook and Bledsoe are not elite 3 point shooters but at around 33% they still make 1 out of 3 threes at average. Elf ? 27%.

Westbrook goes at FT line 11 times per game, Bledsoe 7, Wall 6,4--- Payton 2,4? Let alone fact that when he even goes to free trow line, he can't even make them at high percentage.
All 3 guys are 20 ppg+ players on a bad day. Payton is 12 ppg player.

There is nothing special about Payton. He is pretty damn average defender for a position, he is awful shooter and his playmaking is not elite. For example , potential assists per game : Wall 19,6, Westbrook 19... Payton 12,5?

This is 2017, playing with PG who can't at least shoot 3 at some average level (32-34% to the point where people won't leave him wide open all the time ) is suicide

Posted: **Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:50 am**

pepe1991 wrote:
tiderulz wrote:John Wall couldnt hit a 3 ptr until his 4th season. Eric Bledsoe is ranked 26th in 3 pt% for PG's. Westbrook at 33%, at 24th. you dont have to be a 3 pt gunner to be a good PG in the league

Holly Jesus come on. Look at that names. All 3 of them are elite athletes. Wall from gates was one of best PG defenders and one of best passer out there. Even in his rookie year he was better passer than Elf is now. Took him one year to become more effective, on more points than Elf has ever been. ( by TS%).

Westbrook and Bledsoe are not elite 3 point shooters but at around 33% they still make 1 out of 3 threes at average. Elf ? 27%.

Westbrook goes at FT line 11 times per game, Bledsoe 7, Wall 6,4--- Payton 2,4? Let alone fact that when he even goes to free trow line, he can't even make them at high percentage.
All 3 guys are 20 ppg+ players on a bad day. Payton is 12 ppg player.

There is nothing special about Payton. He is pretty damn average defender for a position, he is awful shooter and his playmaking is not elite. For example , potential assists per game : Wall 19,6, Westbrook 19... Payton 12,5?

This is 2017, playing with PG who can't at least shoot 3 at some average level (32-34% to the point where people won't leave him wide open all the time ) is suicide

Not outright disagreeing but perhaps Elfs assist numbers would be higher if someone outside of Ibaka/Vuc could hit a shot on the team.

Posted: **Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:05 pm**

paperboymafia wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
tiderulz wrote:John Wall couldnt hit a 3 ptr until his 4th season. Eric Bledsoe is ranked 26th in 3 pt% for PG's. Westbrook at 33%, at 24th. you dont have to be a 3 pt gunner to be a good PG in the league

Holly Jesus come on. Look at that names. All 3 of them are elite athletes. Wall from gates was one of best PG defenders and one of best passer out there. Even in his rookie year he was better passer than Elf is now. Took him one year to become more effective, on more points than Elf has ever been. ( by TS%).

Westbrook and Bledsoe are not elite 3 point shooters but at around 33% they still make 1 out of 3 threes at average. Elf ? 27%.

Westbrook goes at FT line 11 times per game, Bledsoe 7, Wall 6,4--- Payton 2,4? Let alone fact that when he even goes to free trow line, he can't even make them at high percentage.
All 3 guys are 20 ppg+ players on a bad day. Payton is 12 ppg player.

There is nothing special about Payton. He is pretty damn average defender for a position, he is awful shooter and his playmaking is not elite. For example , potential assists per game : Wall 19,6, Westbrook 19... Payton 12,5?

This is 2017, playing with PG who can't at least shoot 3 at some average level (32-34% to the point where people won't leave him wide open all the time ) is suicide

Not outright disagreeing but perhaps Elfs assist numbers would be higher if someone outside of Ibaka/Vuc could hit a shot on the team.

That's i prefer potential assists over traditional assists numbers. Because that stat ignores how shi**y your teammates are.

Harden creates league high 21,5 potential assists per game, Wall 19,5 , Westbrook 19, Cp3 17,4, Rubio 14,6.... Payton with 12,5 is in mix with Bledsoe, Lin and TJ McConnell. He is still good playmaker but not top tear like other guys. And that's his only elite skill. (ranked 14# in potential assists )

Posted: **Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:07 pm**

fendilim wrote:
tiderulz wrote:John Wall couldnt hit a 3 ptr until his 4th season. Eric Bledsoe is ranked 26th in 3 pt% for PG's. Westbrook at 33%, at 24th. you dont have to be a 3 pt gunner to be a good PG in the league

Wall eventually had to hit that shot.

Wall, Bledsoe and Westbrook are also elite athletes with nonstop motor. Elfrid...

okay, you are changing your argument now. Is it his game, his motor, his athleticism, which is obsolete?

and i agree his motor isnt on all the time.

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