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Let me explain

How can any basketball player... team player.....point guard.....winner, not love Elfrid Payton...

Two types of lovable guys in this league...one is heavily popularized and noted, one kinda is not.

Marcus Smart. Hard nosed. Gritty, plays to win, plays hard, does the dirty work. This is just a player example.

The other is a true floor leading point guard. This is why me as a basketball player/observer of the game love this kid.

You go to the local gym and you see many high school players, some college ball players, and today, they lack many fundamentals, many have an ego, many think they need to impress, in these kids head they only think they are trying to win the game and forget it is a team game and team win/loss.

Elfrid Payton basically made me have fun watching a basketball game again. In this era of point guards who just shoot, primarily because the rule changes and the soft defense, and the imitating players that watch them

in 2008 Rajon Rondo was the 4th guy on a Celtics team that won a championship with him in his 2nd year. Did he do much? Not really, but he was a championship point guard. To say that any point guard would have done the same is insane to somebody who observes the game and vision ego's and mentality of certain players. We all know that Rondo is now off the hinges, but when he was under control , he was a very good leading point guard.

Elfrid Payton is possibly one of the top 3 pure point guards in this league. His floor awareness is amazing, his simplicity in his game is impeccable. When he rebounds and he sees a player running and wide open he will make the right and simple pass so that player can score. He will run the floor and award his teammate, he is always looking up. He is always looking for somebody to pass to which causes his players to be aware and alert at all times.

One thing that gets overlooked is the simple play........when I mean simple I mean the smartest play to get the easiest basket. This guy gets it. I love watching him play.

You watch guys like Derrick Rose rebound the ball , then you see his wings running down the floor and a smart observer will think, dude just pass it nicely and its a simple basket attempt, but Rose will dribble it, then maybe notice him and it's too late.

This is what makes a guy like Elfrid so great, he is a genuine point guard in a league where it is completely forgotten.

You put him on a team with veteran studs who know how to play positional basketball and he will get the job done as suppossed to putting a first shoot, or first score type point guard.

Elfrid Payton is such a joy to watch. I know many of you already know this, but just watch his highlights and see how amazingly he gets it. Rebound look up , pass it , and it's a layup. I mean just fantastic player...

And what he says in post game is something all basketball players should realize

"If I get the guys the ball to score, they will defend"

This guy knows how to run a team. I think he just needs a better team around him (duh).

I appreciate the sentiment, and agree with a lot of the points and enjoy watching the kid play.

Unfortunately, the thread title is just going to welcome everybody **** on him and critiquing his lack of shooting and whatever else they don't like about him. I wish we can appreciate what some of these guys bring even in losing seasons, but it won't happen.

At the very least he's providing interest late in the season.

I hope we give it a shot with whoever we draft + how we've been playing after the Ibaka trade. It seems like every year we start in some style that never works for our players and then after the all star break we start to play more loose and quicker and team based. I understand teams play more lax later in the season but you also have a more than half of them trying to get into the playoffs.

Is this trolling thread?

pepe1991 wrote:Is this trolling thread?

Now that you're in it.

SOUL wrote:

pepe1991 wrote:Is this trolling thread?

Now that you're in it.

Because using logic, stats and proofs that you can't be serious team in nba if your starting pg is not at least medicore shooter is trolling?

Give me one team that is contender with starting PG who is as bad , if not worst shooter than Elf . Don't worry, i'll wait.

How do you guys rate Payton compared to Rubio in terms of defense and passing? Just curious because they are so similar in many aspects.

lol its a classic March Payton
You guys have seen it since his rookie year and you get fooled each time it happens.Because each time at the end of the year you say well he played so good at the end of the season cant wait till next year and when he will develop that shot in the offseason OH BOY.And then its october and you realise not much has changed.But oh boy wait till march

Payton situation is plain and simple everybody knows it shooting.Like Sacto commentators said.They were praising him since game opener (aside of a well known pharse something like"I cant belive his haircut is not affecting his play") they praised him countless times in that game.
And yes they were right because it is as simple as they say.
He is an amazing player but to move to the upper echelon of pgs he needs to learn how to shoot.Its plain and simple and we all know it since the draft day.Nothing has changed.

pepe1991 wrote:Because using logic, stats and proofs that you can't be serious team in nba if your starting pg is not at least medicore shooter is trolling?

Give me one team that is contender with starting PG who is as bad , if not worst shooter than Elf . Don't worry, i'll wait.

You're acting as if he's a finished product at 23. Plenty of great PG's in history have been productive without a great shot, and many improved on their shot from the age of 23. Kidd.. Rondo.. Gary Payton.. Parker.. Kyle Lowry took 7 years to consistently shoot over 30%.. John Wall shot 7% his second year..

Also do you need to go in every thread to say it?

You say this in the GT after his triple double:

pepe1991 wrote:Magic have few players who get their stats and at the end of a day their stats translate into 24-44 record. This team is in such a desperate need of new PG,SF and C to be anything.

You say this in the Elf/AG thread:

pepe1991 wrote:So who is? Elfrid Payton, 12 ppg ,5,9 apg player who makes lot of defensive mistakes, who had best month of basketball in January, where "his" team lost 12 of 16 games? With below average efficiency and putrid 3 point shooting.
Or it's clear that by efficiency, and raw PPG leader of this team is 17 ppg , 3,2 rpg, 3,2 apg player who at least is league average at efficiency and who , unlike Payton, could at least be starter or 6th man on some contending team.

So he's a stat padder if he gets stats, but if his stats aren't high in counting numbers you're going to criticism him? Xatticus and I both pointed out the flaws in your Fournier argument (btw Payton is shooting higher than Fournier in almost every 2PT% category, and is only 8% behind his 3 point percent, which was something I forgot to add to my post in reply to you in regards to Fournier being our best player)

That's my issue with your criticism.. you make it known in every thread when it's not needed all the time. Do you know how tiring it is to defend players on the team? Part of being a fan is taking the good with the bad.. the guy posted 3 triple doubles in 5 games and had 2 other games where he almost had them as well the past two weeks. Yes, he isn't a great shooter, yes he needs to improve in most areas.

Why does he need to be a good shooter?

How about getting some good players around him.

Not every team wins a championship. Elfrid is not a problem , he enhances the players around him...get him one shooter, one shooter who can get to the bucket then work around that.

His free throw shooting is indication that he is gaining confidence

Either way , he can help a team, especially a team that has the players necessary to make a good run

~Snoopy~ wrote:lol its a classic March Payton
You guys have seen it since his rookie year and you get fooled each time it happens.Because each time at the end of the year you say well he played so good at the end of the season cant wait till next year and when he will develop that shot in the offseason OH BOY.And the its october and you realise not much has changed.But oh boy wait till march

Payton situation is plain and simple everybody knows it shooting.Like Sacto commentators said.They were parising him since game opener (asde of a well known pharse something like"I cant belive his haircut is not affecting his play") they praised him countless times in that game.
And yes tehy were right because it is that simple as they say.
He is amazing player but to move to the upper echelon of pgs he needs to learn how to shoot.Its plain and simple and we all know it since the draft day.Nothing has changed.

I don't think anybody is arguing against his shooting needing to improve, it's definitely a WIP. In regards to his March play, it also isn't a coincidence he isn't playing off ball as much, is getting minutes, and is getting to run the team and actually get out and RUN with a small lineup. We do this at the end of every year where we play more ideal lineups that make sense and then we go to some half court slow it down style at the beginning.

I don't get why people can admit Vogel's faults and lineup issues and style issues and then pretend it doesn't have an effect on how players play. Nothing suddenly clicked for AG or Payton (or even Biyombo, who posted good numbers in starting lineup w/ minutes) .. it's all about how we use them. And games are actually close now instead of getting blown out almost every other game for the first 3/4 months. If we changed things up and looked worse but players were getting numbers, it doesn't mean as much. We actually look like we have pieces to look forward to now if we use them correctly.

One criticism I do have is that he needs to play better defense. We know he is capable. He definitely needs to be more aware on the defensive end.

wizfactor94 wrote:Why does he need to be a good shooter?

How about getting some good players around him.

Not every team wins a championship. Elfrid is not a problem , he enhances the players around him...get him one shooter, one shooter who can get to the bucket then work around that.

His free throw shooting is indication that he is gaining confidence

Either way , he can help a team, especially a team that has the players necessary to make a good run

I mean, every player should aspire to be good shooters, especially people not very good at shooting. But he is improving in every area of shooting (other than his 3 point shot), so it actually bodes well for his future in that area. But even if he got to 35% people would want somebody that is shooting 40%, etc.

pepe1991 wrote:

SOUL wrote:

pepe1991 wrote:Is this trolling thread?

Now that you're in it.

Because using logic, stats and proofs that you can't be serious team in nba if your starting pg is not at least medicore shooter is trolling?

Give me one team that is contender with starting PG who is as bad , if not worst shooter than Elf . Don't worry, i'll wait.

Pepe1991 the reason you're a troll is because of your attitude, I actually like some of your posts, you talk and back up your points, but you can come across as arrogant and condensing, it's not needed to have a healthy debate. I'm not taking shots, just point it this out to you (there are others too) so we can have a good discussion


On Payton: I believe in Elfrid, I really do, I think he needs to improve his maturity though if we want him to be our leader as a PG. He has all the tools outside of shooting, and he's big enough to slide to 2 if we need him too. I also think and really want him to cut his hair and focus purely on shooting this summer. I don't know if it's part of a brand or image he's trying to promote, but it's part of what I mean about maturity, be yourself, express yourself how you want and need, but don't let it affect what you do and need to do.

To answer the question I think Elfrid can be a championship PG and do it for us, I think he's a few years away though, so personally I would (and think we will) try and sign a good veteran like George Hill, and split minutes between PG and SG with him. That would also mean we would need to trade Fournier or Ross, and personally Fournier needs to be traded. I like him, I like his game, I don't like his role on this team or what he is trying to, I like Ross starting next to Hezonja, Gordon, and Biyombo. If we could get Hill on a 3 year deal with a 3rd year team option that might be the right amount of time to keep developing Payton and when Hill is expiring he can take over as a 24-26 year old PG if he hasn't earned it already.

Hill/Payton
Ross
Hezonja/1st
Gordon/1st
Biyombo/Vucevic


That should be our core and how we move forward next year, is it a playoff team, doubtful, but the past 2 years have shown that rushing and cashing in doesn't work and that very young team is a solid and could even sneak if they click right, it takes 3 years for a group of players to become a team

SOUL wrote:

wizfactor94 wrote:Why does he need to be a good shooter?

How about getting some good players around him.

Not every team wins a championship. Elfrid is not a problem , he enhances the players around him...get him one shooter, one shooter who can get to the bucket then work around that.

His free throw shooting is indication that he is gaining confidence

Either way , he can help a team, especially a team that has the players necessary to make a good run

I mean, every player should aspire to be good shooters, especially people not very good at shooting. But he is improving in every area of shooting (other than his 3 point shot), so it actually bodes well for his future in that area. But even if he got to 35% people would want somebody that is shooting 40%, etc.

What I meant was that he can get to the bucket, he can finish, and he can drop in floaters and such.

Do I want him to be a good shooter, of course, that would be great. I am sure he would love to be great too.

But he is the least needing of a better jumper to his game. As time goes on , maybe adding a 3 point shot would be awesome.

BBut like you said, that will come with confidence.

Look at his FT shooting numbers. That is one thing that disgusted me was how bad he was at the line. Now he is starting to gain confidence.

Simply, no.

SOUL wrote:I appreciate the sentiment, and agree with a lot of the points and enjoy watching the kid play.

Unfortunately, the thread title is just going to welcome everybody **** on him and critiquing his lack of shooting and whatever else they don't like about him. I wish we can appreciate what some of these guys bring even in losing seasons, but it won't happen.

At the very least he's providing interest late in the season.

I hope we give it a shot with whoever we draft + how we've been playing after the Ibaka trade. It seems like every year we start in some style that never works for our players and then after the all star break we start to play more loose and quicker and team based. I understand teams play more lax later in the season but you also have a more than half of them trying to get into the playoffs.

Just wait til Elf cuts his hair this summer. Next year he will take off!

wizfactor94 wrote:Let me explain

How can any basketball player... team player.....point guard.....winner, not love Elfrid Payton...

Two types of lovable guys in this league...one is heavily popularized and noted, one kinda is not.

Marcus Smart. Hard nosed. Gritty, plays to win, plays hard, does the dirty work. This is just a player example.

The other is a true floor leading point guard. This is why me as a basketball player/observer of the game love this kid.

You go to the local gym and you see many high school players, some college ball players, and today, they lack many fundamentals, many have an ego, many think they need to impress, in these kids head they only think they are trying to win the game and forget it is a team game and team win/loss.

Elfrid Payton basically made me have fun watching a basketball game again. In this era of point guards who just shoot, primarily because the rule changes and the soft defense, and the imitating players that watch them

in 2008 Rajon Rondo was the 4th guy on a Celtics team that won a championship with him in his 2nd year. Did he do much? Not really, but he was a championship point guard. To say that any point guard would have done the same is insane to somebody who observes the game and vision ego's and mentality of certain players. We all know that Rondo is now off the hinges, but when he was under control , he was a very good leading point guard.

Elfrid Payton is possibly one of the top 3 pure point guards in this league. His floor awareness is amazing, his simplicity in his game is impeccable. When he rebounds and he sees a player running and wide open he will make the right and simple pass so that player can score. He will run the floor and award his teammate, he is always looking up. He is always looking for somebody to pass to which causes his players to be aware and alert at all times.

One thing that gets overlooked is the simple play........when I mean simple I mean the smartest play to get the easiest basket. This guy gets it. I love watching him play.

You watch guys like Derrick Rose rebound the ball , then you see his wings running down the floor and a smart observer will think, dude just pass it nicely and its a simple basket attempt, but Rose will dribble it, then maybe notice him and it's too late.

This is what makes a guy like Elfrid so great, he is a genuine point guard in a league where it is completely forgotten.

You put him on a team with veteran studs who know how to play positional basketball and he will get the job done as suppossed to putting a first shoot, or first score type point guard.

Elfrid Payton is such a joy to watch. I know many of you already know this, but just watch his highlights and see how amazingly he gets it. Rebound look up , pass it , and it's a layup. I mean just fantastic player...

And what he says in post game is something all basketball players should realize

"If I get the guys the ball to score, they will defend"

This guy knows how to run a team. I think he just needs a better team around him (duh).

Watch on YouTube

He's one of the only pure pg's in the NBA because they dont work anymore on their own. Rondo was surrounded by HOF talent, but he and Rubio are of Paytons ilk and none have really generated more wins for a team playing that style. MCW would be in the exact same position had he not been derailed by injuries. His string of good games isnt surprising. He's done this before and seemingly needs to be told to play aggressive and constantly motivated according to now two NBA head coaches. That could obviously improve with maturity and he would be a good fit if surrounded with better talent including one or two elite players but I think that applies to everyone on the team.

wizfactor94 wrote:Why does he need to be a good shooter?

How about getting some good players around him.

Not every team wins a championship. Elfrid is not a problem , he enhances the players around him...get him one shooter, one shooter who can get to the bucket then work around that.

His free throw shooting is indication that he is gaining confidence

Either way , he can help a team, especially a team that has the players necessary to make a good run

ummm. have you watched the NBA the last few seasons? Wat?

You are correct. He has fantastic vision and floor game. Unfortunately, the rest of the team is utter trash. He should be leading the league in assists but his teammates can't make open shots consistently.

Instead of hammering a guy for one thing he can't do, lets first put some actual capable players around him and see what happens. Payton can't shoot a 3, he is ok from mid-range and fantastic going to the basket. He can score, just not shoot. So put some, you know, guys who can actually make 3's around him. Ross - 27% from 3. AG - 28% from 3. Fournier - 34%.

Look at the numbers he is putting up and still Vogel is playing him under 30mpg. Why? Are we a contender right now? Will we be next season? No. What are we playing for other than developing our young players? We should be giving him all the minutes he can handle right now. There is not another guard on that bench that is fit to hold his jock strap.

I feel sorry for people that can't enjoy watching him play and just harp on shooting. He really is an entertaining player to watch and clearly the highest IQ and most unselfish player on the team. And his shooting HAS gotten better every season which the people that complain about his shooting NEVER give him credit for. What else can he do? Is he supposed to become Reggie Miller in one offseason? He'll continue to get better as a player and you'll all be crying that we didn't keep him when he's playing well for another team.