Does De'Aaron Fox or DSJ have more star potential than Payton?

[pepe1991]

Pre-ASG Payton was playing around 18/19th best PG. Not bad for a 23 year old, but certainly not the greatest and not a player (among a roster full of these sorts of players) that we could hang our hat on to carry us. Again though, we played a style that really benefited nobody on the team.

Post-ASG Payton was around the 10 spot. Which is really damn good, and I hope that Vogel continues the same role he had with Ross on the team because the starting lineup looked night and day with him handling the ball primarily. When you consider the top 10 is filled wit players with 4-10 years more experience, I'm not casting Payton as some bit bench player.

Wall, Lillard, Curry, Harden,Westbrook, Schroder, Conley, Curry, Schroder, Thomas. That's 10. All in playoffs. Schroder is probably most underrated player in the league at this point. He is best Atlanta player, they suck,especially without Millsap.

That's also ignoring that Lowry was hurt and that Dragić was best player on team that missed playoffs by accident.

George Hill, Bledsoe and Kemba are still better players. Especially Kemba who is allstar. Teague is averaging 15 ppg-8 apg on playoff team as well.

Making case for Payton as top 10 PG in nba even in post allstar period is silly when you see where Magic were at in that period, what they were fighting for, what was their record ,compared to other teams, their positions and where they were in playoff hunt. It's alomst like Westbrook vs Harden debate for MVP. Personal stats vs wins.

[MagicStarwipe]

Problem with Payton's numbers then are that they are pretty inflated during that last run. As much as I want to believe that they could always be that way, his consistency comes into question for me. I say that because if the BPA at our draft position is a PG, I think you have to take him.

Inflated how though? He was barely averaging 30mpg.

[MagicFan101]

We still control Elf on a rookie deal for one guaranteed year + a qualifying offer year. Yes, it was in meaningless games but Elf did show us enough at the end of the season to earn consideration for keeping his starting job.

If we have a shot at Tatum or Isaac we should go that route and still with Elf at least one more year.

[PennytoShaq]

Problem with Payton's numbers then are that they are pretty inflated during that last run. As much as I want to believe that they could always be that way, his consistency comes into question for me. I say that because if the BPA at our draft position is a PG, I think you have to take him.

Inflated how though? He was barely averaging 30mpg.

Meaningless games and he got a ton of usage during his minutes on the court. I don't think he can take us to the next level as a starter but as a reserve he could still log 25-30 minutes a game since he can guard SGs and play next to a PG like Fox or even DSJ.

[MagicStarwipe]

Problem with Payton's numbers then are that they are pretty inflated during that last run. As much as I want to believe that they could always be that way, his consistency comes into question for me. I say that because if the BPA at our draft position is a PG, I think you have to take him.

Inflated how though? He was barely averaging 30mpg.

Meaningless games and he got a ton of usage during his minutes on the court. I don't think he can take us to the next level as a starter but as a reserve he could still log 25-30 minutes a game since he can guard SGs and play next to a PG like Fox or even DSJ.

No he didn't get a ton of usage at all. His usage actually went down after the all-star break. We just started using him to his strengths. Which is what most teams do with their best players. A novel concept. This "meaningless games" thing is also way overstated.

[PennytoShaq]

Inflated how though? He was barely averaging 30mpg.

Meaningless games and he got a ton of usage during his minutes on the court. I don't think he can take us to the next level as a starter but as a reserve he could still log 25-30 minutes a game since he can guard SGs and play next to a PG like Fox or even DSJ.

No he didn't get a ton of usage at all. His usage actually went down after the all-star break. We just started using him to his strengths. Which is what most teams do with their best players. A novel concept. This "meaningless games" thing is also way overstated.

No it's not. Payton has rarely delivered in clutch moments when it counts. I love the guy, but thats just how it is.When it doesn't count its a lot easier to play loose and go off. Additionally, his defense is a red flag. It's not very good. Our perimeter defense as a whole was very bad.

[MagicStarwipe]

Meaningless games and he got a ton of usage during his minutes on the court. I don't think he can take us to the next level as a starter but as a reserve he could still log 25-30 minutes a game since he can guard SGs and play next to a PG like Fox or even DSJ.

No he didn't get a ton of usage at all. His usage actually went down after the all-star break. We just started using him to his strengths. Which is what most teams do with their best players. A novel concept. This "meaningless games" thing is also way overstated.

No it's not. Payton has rarely delivered in clutch moments when it counts. I love the guy, but thats just how it is.When it doesn't count its a lot easier to play loose and go off. Additionally, his defense is a red flag. It's not very good. Our perimeter defense as a whole was very bad.

Who has delivered in clutch moments when it counts? How many times have we asked him to deliver in clutch moments? He was also our best player BEFORE the all-star break, if only by a hair.

His defense is inconsistent, but we have some of the worst defensive chemistry in the league. Nobody talks and nobody trusts their teammates. Can't blame that on one guy.

[PennytoShaq]

No he didn't get a ton of usage at all. His usage actually went down after the all-star break. We just started using him to his strengths. Which is what most teams do with their best players. A novel concept. This "meaningless games" thing is also way overstated.

No it's not. Payton has rarely delivered in clutch moments when it counts. I love the guy, but thats just how it is.When it doesn't count its a lot easier to play loose and go off. Additionally, his defense is a red flag. It's not very good. Our perimeter defense as a whole was very bad.

Who has delivered in clutch moments when it counts? How many times have we asked him to deliver in clutch moments? He was also our best player BEFORE the all-star break, if only by a hair.

His defense is inconsistent, but we have some of the worst defensive chemistry in the league. Nobody talks and nobody trusts their teammates. Can't blame that on one guy.

Ibaka, Vuc and Fournie were better players before the all-star break. Payton was benched for poor play.

Just saying, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the Magic made a trade for a PG or drafted one that they believe could be a star.

[pepe1991]

No he didn't get a ton of usage at all. His usage actually went down after the all-star break. We just started using him to his strengths. Which is what most teams do with their best players. A novel concept. This "meaningless games" thing is also way overstated.

No it's not. Payton has rarely delivered in clutch moments when it counts. I love the guy, but thats just how it is.When it doesn't count its a lot easier to play loose and go off. Additionally, his defense is a red flag. It's not very good. Our perimeter defense as a whole was very bad.

Who has delivered in clutch moments when it counts? How many times have we asked him to deliver in clutch moments? He was also our best player BEFORE the all-star break, if only by a hair.

His defense is inconsistent, but we have some of the worst defensive chemistry in the league. Nobody talks and nobody trusts their teammates. Can't blame that on one guy.

Just because others suck as well that doesn't make him good. It's like debating who is best Nets player.

To say that Payton was better than Ibaka just shows your personal bias. Sorry.

[MagicStarwipe]

Also, it's simply not true that he hasn't delivered in clutch moments. There have been numerous games where he has single handedly willed us back into games with plays on both ends. If you can't recall that then you just have selective memory.

[MagicStarwipe]

No it's not. Payton has rarely delivered in clutch moments when it counts. I love the guy, but thats just how it is.When it doesn't count its a lot easier to play loose and go off. Additionally, his defense is a red flag. It's not very good. Our perimeter defense as a whole was very bad.

Who has delivered in clutch moments when it counts? How many times have we asked him to deliver in clutch moments? He was also our best player BEFORE the all-star break, if only by a hair.

His defense is inconsistent, but we have some of the worst defensive chemistry in the league. Nobody talks and nobody trusts their teammates. Can't blame that on one guy.

Just because others suck as well that doesn't make him good. It's like debating who is best Nets player.

To say that Payton was better than Ibaka just shows your personal bias. Sorry.

Ibaka was better for a period, but he lost that title as he started playing increasingly lazy and for his own stats as the season went on.

[MagicStarwipe]

No it's not. Payton has rarely delivered in clutch moments when it counts. I love the guy, but thats just how it is.When it doesn't count its a lot easier to play loose and go off. Additionally, his defense is a red flag. It's not very good. Our perimeter defense as a whole was very bad.

Who has delivered in clutch moments when it counts? How many times have we asked him to deliver in clutch moments? He was also our best player BEFORE the all-star break, if only by a hair.

His defense is inconsistent, but we have some of the worst defensive chemistry in the league. Nobody talks and nobody trusts their teammates. Can't blame that on one guy.

Ibaka, Vuc and Fournie were better players before the all-star break. Payton was benched for poor play.

Just saying, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the Magic made a trade for a PG or drafted one that they believe could be a star.

Ibaka was better for a period, then got lazy and started playing for himself. Vuc was horrible, Fournier is the definition of empty stats (which weren't even good stats). And I don't know many people who believed Elfrid deserved to be benched. And when he was benched it was supposedly for "fit".

[pepe1991]

Who has delivered in clutch moments when it counts? How many times have we asked him to deliver in clutch moments? He was also our best player BEFORE the all-star break, if only by a hair.

His defense is inconsistent, but we have some of the worst defensive chemistry in the league. Nobody talks and nobody trusts their teammates. Can't blame that on one guy.

Just because others suck as well that doesn't make him good. It's like debating who is best Nets player.

To say that Payton was better than Ibaka just shows your personal bias. Sorry.

Ibaka was better for a period, but he lost that title as he started playing increasingly lazy and for his own stats as the season went on.

By pretty much all stats he was head and shoulders best Magic player.
Second in PPG, first in BPG, third in RPG, second in 3 point percentage, second in FG%, fist in eFG%, first in TS% , first in offensive rating, third in defensive rating, third in offensive box plus minus,third in defensive, first in win share per 48 min.

It's pretty damn depressing looking at all this numbers, knowing that in reality he really is just a role player, yet he looked like supertar compared to other Magic players.

btw if we are going to cherry pick games and periods, Payton was benched because of horrific defense.

[PennytoShaq]

I have to agree. Ibaka was clearly our best player and I can't blame him for not wanting to defer to lesser guys. He was used to Durant and Westbrook.

And Payton was indeed benched for poor defense. I would clear the entire starting lineup except Gordon and either move Payton/Vuc/Evan to the bench or trade them. Only other guy I wouldn't mind starting is Ross, simply because he can shoot and plays defense with good energy.

[pepe1991]

I have to agree. Ibaka was clearly our best player and I can't blame him for not wanting to defer to lesser guys. He was used to Durant and Westbrook.

And Payton was indeed benched for poor defense. I would clear the entire starting lineup except Gordon and either move Payton/Vuc/Evan to the bench or trade them. Only other guy I wouldn't mind starting is Ross, simply because he can shoot and plays defense with good energy.

I find Evan better SG than Ross, mostly based on other seasons. However, for right player i would bench him as well. Ross can't play SF,especially not as a starter.

[SOUL]

I have to agree. Ibaka was clearly our best player and I can't blame him for not wanting to defer to lesser guys. He was used to Durant and Westbrook.

And Payton was indeed benched for poor defense. I would clear the entire starting lineup except Gordon and either move Payton/Vuc/Evan to the bench or trade them. Only other guy I wouldn't mind starting is Ross, simply because he can shoot and plays defense with good energy.

This goes back to the entire starting lineup playing better when Ibaka left though, even though Ibaka was probably our best player before he was traded. Vuc's offense went down the drain, Payton's offense was okay but his defense was suffering, Fournier couldn't shoot, Gordon was playing out of position.. bench sucked. I feel like a lot of people base opinions off of worst case scenarios and think that's how to gauge players. Our front office/coaches need to put them in a position to succeed, or else you end up losing good players because another team will get the most out of them.

[Bensational]

It's hard to judge this team on this season since it took Vogel some time to find what worked - and whether he achieved that in the end or not is still debatable since we continued to lose at freefall rate even after the Ibaka trade.

Prior to Ibaka's trade, the team was 10-13 with Biyombo starting next to Ibaka from the end of November to the start of January. This was the most competitive we ever got as a team, and the wheels seemed to be coming off the bus by the end of that run (hence, Vogel's panic and lineup change). There's a bunch of gossip as to what was going on internally with the team at that time, with people saying Ibaka wasn't invested, Vuc was unhappy coming off the bench, players weren't getting along, etc.

But during that run, one of the reasons we were more successful was because we actually had a bench. We had Payton and Vuc giving us offense off the bench, and then we changed it up and front loaded our starting lineup and started relying on Green and Augustin to carry the load off the bench.

Also, during that run, Payton and Ibaka were the biggest difference makers in splits between W's and L's. Everyone else basically continued to put up the same numbers win or lose, but if Ibaka and/or Payton had a big game, it impacted the W column moreso than anyone else. We were even undefeated when Elf scored over 20 points at one time.

Elf's impact is being grossly undervalued here. But he's always going to topical, so I guess there's no point starting yet another Payton debate.

[SOUL]

I find Evan better SG than Ross, mostly based on other seasons. However, for right player i would bench him as well. Ross can't play SF,especially not as a starter.

Issue is despite Ross not shooting great while here, I trust his outside shot more from a spot shooting perspective. Also the Fournier/Vuc dynamic has to be split up somehow. If people think AG and Payton isn't the best combo because of shooting, at least they are beasts in transition together and run and get easy baskets. Fournier/Vuc plays take 20 seconds to develop and is not a sure thing to work in half-court and the entire offense feels stiff.

Fournier is going to a wrist specialist this offseason which is partly why I think his shot was disappointing this year, but his stats did go way up once he stopped handling the ball so much.

[MagicStarwipe]

Just because others suck as well that doesn't make him good. It's like debating who is best Nets player.

To say that Payton was better than Ibaka just shows your personal bias. Sorry.

Ibaka was better for a period, but he lost that title as he started playing increasingly lazy and for his own stats as the season went on.

By pretty much all stats he was head and shoulders best Magic player.
Second in PPG, first in BPG, third in RPG, second in 3 point percentage, second in FG%, fist in eFG%, first in TS% , first in offensive rating, third in defensive rating, third in offensive box plus minus,third in defensive, first in win share per 48 min.

It's pretty damn depressing looking at all this numbers, knowing that in reality he really is just a role player, yet he looked like supertar compared to other Magic players.

btw if we are going to cherry pick games and periods, Payton was benched because of horrific defense.

As I said, Ibaka was the best player for a period. But then he started drifting in effort and stopped playing team ball. If you value a guy that does that as a top player then good luck to you. You must not like winning. Regardless, if some people think he was better for us the first half of the season than Payton, fine that's their opinion, but it certainly wasn't by much.

And once again we're losing the point and getting caught up in semantics.

[PennytoShaq]

If you guys are willing to gamble on Payton and Gordon both starting and being part of the team's core, that's fine. But I am wiling to bet the Magic are not and they will go after a PG this offseason that has the potential to start.