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Deserves it's own thread because why not? The chemistry these two are building is great to watch. I'd love it if we let them build on this rather than going back to the same old Vuc/Fournier buddy ball next season. Hand them the reigns.

Keep these two and upgrade every other position.

OrlandoDream wrote:Keep these two and upgrade every other position.

Let's count teams in playoffs with two non existing treats from outside in starting line up : -. That's a list .

pepe1991 wrote:

OrlandoDream wrote:Keep these two and upgrade every other position.

Let's count teams in playoffs with two non existing treats from outside in starting line up : -. That's a list .

We're not going to be a playoff team next season unless we miraculously land an all-star, which gives one or both of them another year to get there. It's called player development.

The point still stands though. I would enjoy the video more if the two of them had produced more. We should be trading at least one of them before the start of next season. Otherwise we will be watching another video next summer waiting for the lottery, and then the next. And each summer in the lottery I get less and less excited about players that have been here, stinking it up for years.

Having said that I wish we ran lobs more with the fast paced offense you see here.


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We're not making the playoffs next season regardless. You guys are as bad as Martins. These two are fun to watch and will be very good players. Enjoy the video sour puss'.

AG is a definite keeper for me hands down.....Payton not so much but the silver lining here is that he played well to end the season, on the flipside though he played well to end the season last year and started this year like straight trash and got demoted playing behind frickin D.J Augustine. My only issue with Elf is his consistency, he'll have a few games where he's playing like a top 10 or 15 PG then the next few he'll be right back to playing like a backup. He has it in him, i would give him 1 more season to see, or hell i'll give him until the trade deadline because he has to take the momentum he has now, have a productive offseason and come back next season playing like he did at the end of this season, if not then he's gone by the deadline.

Solid Snake wrote:AG is a definite keeper for me hands down.....Payton not so much but the silver lining here is that he played well to end the season, on the flipside though he played well to end the season last year and started this year like straight trash and got demoted playing behind frickin D.J Augustine. My only issue with Elf is his consistency, he'll have a few games where he's playing like a top 10 or 15 PG then the next few he'll be right back to playing like a backup. He has it in him, i would give him 1 more season to see, or hell i'll give him until the trade deadline because he has to take the momentum he has now, have a productive offseason and come back next season playing like he did at the end of this season, if not then he's gone by the deadline.

Payton had the best season of a Magician last year -- not raw stats, but advanced stats.

If he needs to be more consistent, our entire team does as well.

Solid Snake wrote:AG is a definite keeper for me hands down.....Payton not so much but the silver lining here is that he played well to end the season, on the flipside though he played well to end the season last year and started this year like straight trash and got demoted playing behind frickin D.J Augustine. My only issue with Elf is his consistency, he'll have a few games where he's playing like a top 10 or 15 PG then the next few he'll be right back to playing like a backup. He has it in him, i would give him 1 more season to see, or hell i'll give him until the trade deadline because he has to take the momentum he has now, have a productive offseason and come back next season playing like he did at the end of this season, if not then he's gone by the deadline.

Payton had the best season of a Magician last year -- not raw stats, but advanced stats.

If he needs to be more consistent, our entire team does as well.

I see Gordon as the type of player who if we trade him now, we'll regret it in a few years time. As long as Chad Forcier is here, I see Gordon developing into a very useful player.

Payton is a slightly different story. If we draft a point guard this year then he'll need to accept a back up role in the long term with DJ Augustin moving to the 3rd pg spot (as the highest paid 3rd pg in the league!)

They're exciting and love the chemistry, but they're also still below average basketball players after 3 seasons. Why exactly should the Magic invest their future into these guys?

JF5 wrote:They're exciting and love the chemistry, but they're also still below average basketball players after 3 seasons. Why exactly should the Magic invest their future into these guys?

Payton finished statistically as a top 14-16 PG in terms of value/wins added in the regular season (around the likes of Holiday, Schroder, Hill, Rubio) and along with Schroder was the only guard on the list around his age of 22/23. Every other point guard above him is 25-32 years old.







Gordon since his move to PF:






(last year)





His post-Ibaka/PF move points per game would be good for second best on the team on average... he also had more 30 point games on the team than anybody else despite being an incomplete offensive player. Did I mention that he's still only 21? He clearly is an impact player when he's playing the PF position.

So I'll let you answer those questions, but you seem convinced we should rid ourselves of both and continue with Fournier and Vucevic so we're always going to be in disagreement about how this team should look going forward.

Even if we don't build around these guys, they will have impact on the team. If they both sign for reasonable contracts, I want both of them here for the foreseeable future.

SOUL wrote:

JF5 wrote:They're exciting and love the chemistry, but they're also still below average basketball players after 3 seasons. Why exactly should the Magic invest their future into these guys?

Payton finished statistically as a top 14-16 PG in terms of value/wins added in the regular season (around the likes of Holiday, Schroder, Hill, Rubio) and along with Schroder was the only guard on the list around his age of 22/23. Every other point guard above him is 25-32 years old.

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Gordon since his move to PF:

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

(last year)

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

His post-Ibaka/PF move points per game would be good for second best on the team on average... he also had more 30 point games on the team than anybody else despite being an incomplete offensive player. Did I mention that he's still only 21? He clearly is an impact player when he's playing the PF position.

So I'll let you answer those questions, but you seem convinced we should rid ourselves of both and continue with Fournier and Vucevic so we're always going to be in disagreement about how this team should look going forward.

Even if we don't build around these guys, they will have impact on the team. If they both sign for reasonable contracts, I want both of them here for the foreseeable future.

And all that translated into....19 Ls in 26 games....If you look at Nets 2016-17 stats you will figure good Lin, Lopez ,Bogdanovic individual numbers , does that mean they are great ? No, Magic are just terrible team so somebody has to put up some stats because game still lasts 48 min and they are NBA players so somebody will get hot from time to time.

Gordon is young but that doesn't change fact that he is still just a role player who can't create any offene for himself.
Payton did have nice post allstar break streak but it still doesn't change a fact that he is medicore defender and non shooting PG in shooting era. Together they kill floor spacing.
That doesn't mean that VUčević and Evan are good. I would trade all but Gordon tbh. Gordon at least plays defense and with right players around him can be solid starter. I'm not sure that any other Magic starter is NBA level starter on playoff team.

SOUL wrote:

JF5 wrote:They're exciting and love the chemistry, but they're also still below average basketball players after 3 seasons. Why exactly should the Magic invest their future into these guys?

Payton finished statistically as a top 14-16 PG in terms of value/wins added in the regular season (around the likes of Holiday, Schroder, Hill, Rubio) and along with Schroder was the only guard on the list around his age of 22/23. Every other point guard above him is 25-32 years old.

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Gordon since his move to PF:

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

(last year)

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

His post-Ibaka/PF move points per game would be good for second best on the team on average... he also had more 30 point games on the team than anybody else despite being an incomplete offensive player. Did I mention that he's still only 21? He clearly is an impact player when he's playing the PF position.

So I'll let you answer those questions, but you seem convinced we should rid ourselves of both and continue with Fournier and Vucevic so we're always going to be in disagreement about how this team should look going forward.

Even if we don't build around these guys, they will have impact on the team. If they both sign for reasonable contracts, I want both of them here for the foreseeable future.

They're doing this on probably the 2nd least talented team in the NBA. Acting like this is some sort of feat on a really bad team is ridiculous.

Plus, I like your angle you assume I want Fournier and Vucevic on the team. I really don't care if either of them are still on the squad as they're both only good players who unfortunately are the best offensive options this team has. You are right about Vucevic and that's because he's the longest tenured Magic player post Dwight Howard era (Loyalty aspect). Even adding all that, for me he'd be benched in a hot second if this team was able to gain prospect that has a better trajectory than he does. Hell, I wanted to draft Stephen Zimmerman and now currently Justin Patton so they can ultimately replace him down the line (You can refer to the the Draft Thread for Evidence). Plus, he's easily the most skilled player this team has.

You can't say that about Fournier who only provides scoring and plays matador defense. Payton who essentially is still a non-shooting/shooting utility PG who is pretty poor (outside of man-to-man defense) on the defensive side of the ball and has an inconsistent motor (so you don't exactly know which player you're going to get on a night-to-night basis); and Gordon who is still primarily a hustle player with no distinctive skills after 3 years.

Those are the guys we've been building around for the last several years, and how has that been going? Those guys have barely grown after 3 seasons, and its pretty evident they won't be anymore than good role players.

pepe1991 wrote:And all that translated into....19 Ls in 26 games....If you look at Nets 2016-17 stats you will figure good Lin, Lopez ,Bogdanovic individual numbers , does that mean they are great ? No, Magic are just terrible team so somebody has to put up some stats because game still lasts 48 min and they are NBA players so somebody will get hot from time to time.

Gordon is young but that doesn't change fact that he is still just a role player who can't create any offene for himself.
Payton did have nice post allstar break streak but it still doesn't change a fact that he is medicore defender and non shooting PG in shooting era. Together they kill floor spacing.
That doesn't mean that VUčević and Evan are good. I would trade all but Gordon tbh. Gordon at least plays defense and with right players around him can be solid starter. I'm not sure that any other Magic starter is NBA level starter on playoff team.

Well he asked why they should stay on the team and inferred that they haven't shown much. I'm putting into context what they've shown relative to their age and opportunity, and it has been good. Nothing world beating, but solid. If we're going to criticize them for not carrying the team (despite having lesser roles pre Ibaka) then the same criticism should be thrown at KAT and Wiggins or Porzingis or whoever. The fact of the matter is the whole team is going to have to play for each other if they want to start building a winning culture here.

JF5 wrote:Those are the guys we've been building around for the last several years, and how has that been going? Those guys have barely grown after 3 seasons, and its pretty evident they won't be anymore than good role players.

Well you keep mentioning in most threads that both will be traded, so whether it's an opinion or a feeling you have (that most others don't), then I assume you don't like them and the players that you aren't mentioning being traded are the ones you like. Maybe not Fournier, but there seems to be way more overlap with Fournier/Ross than moving Gordon or Payton when we don't have their replacements even on the team. After the draft maybe, but we don't know where we're going in the draft yet.

Also my post wasn't to convince you that they're soon to be all stars and will be carrying us but a reply to your opinion and putting into context what they've done. If you're going to erase all of that because we aren't winning, then all of the young players I mentioned + Booker, Giannis prior to this year, etc should all be null and void too if we're equating personal growth and winning. It doesn't always show in the W/L column, especially with our bench and our half-court slow offense with athletes that we ran half the year with Ibaka.

But that's your opinion, it's not a fact. Just like my opinion of them still having way more to show is an opinion as well. You're betting on the fact that Aaron and Payton will be nothing but role players in the NBA at the ages of 21 and 23. I think they've shown considerable improvement (once Aaron moved to PF) and are on the right track for their ages relative to what I think their ceilings are.

SOUL wrote:Well you keep mentioning in most threads that both will be traded, so whether it's an opinion or a feeling you have (that most others don't), then I assume you don't like them and the players that you aren't mentioning being traded are the ones you like. Maybe not Fournier, but there seems to be way more overlap with Fournier/Ross than moving Gordon or Payton when we don't have their replacements even on the team. After the draft maybe, but we don't know where we're going in the draft yet.

1. I've said in various threads that anyone can be traded as this team is going through a likely 2nd rebuild. The majority of Magic fans are aware that. This team is pretty terrible and there is no point in really salvaging any portion of this roster. Like I've said before, I like Vucevic but I'm not hesitant in trading/benching him if a better option is available.

2. Gordon has the highest value out of everyone on this team given his value and fit in the modern NBA. A small-ball defensive 4 who can somewhat space the floor and is pretty young is something that most GMs are interested in.

3. Payton and Gordon's contracts are up after the next season. It's either trade them (to retain some value for drafting them) or resign them to hopefully reasonable contracts so they don't hamstring the team. Nobody wants to overpay for guys who are barely marginal to bloated contracts that aren't movable, and I'm assuming Gordon might command over 15-16 million a year. Unless he shows out (Which would help him out) this team shouldn't commit themselves to sort of contract. Especially after the Biyombo signing.

4. This roster is poorly constructed... Today's landscape is about space and pace. Emphasis on space as outside shooting is very valuable. This team was one of the worst shooting teams in the NBA during the regular season, as their two bigger pieces are guys who are non-shooters/scorers (Payton and Gordon). Unless you have 2-3 guys who are elite scorers/shooters its impossible to play those guys simultaneously and expect to win.

5. I think the Magic are capable to replace anyone on the roster with the right trades, draft picks, signings during the off-season. Its really not difficult considering how bad this team is anyway. Its really not that complicated, lol.

SOUL wrote:Also my post wasn't to convince you that they're soon to be all stars and will be carrying us but a reply to your opinion and putting into context what they've done. If you're going to erase all of that because we aren't winning, then all of the young players I mentioned + Booker, Giannis prior to this year, etc should all be null and void too if we're equating personal growth and winning. It doesn't always show in the W/L column, especially with our bench and our half-court slow offense with athletes that we ran half the year with Ibaka.

They've done well, but you want these guys to do it in a winning situation. You've had guys like Mike James and Ricky Davis put on big numbers on crappy teams, then migrate to other teams and only become decent to good on other squads. It doesn't really mean much when your team is in the bottom of the totem pole in the league. That's just how it is.

Plus again, Elfrid and Aaron are exactly the same players they were when they were drafted except their slightly better versions of themselves and seasoned.

Elfrid has improved as a FT shooter and a slightly smarter player when it comes to making the right decision. But outside of those positives he's still what I've mentioned in my prior post. Same with AG who after 3 seasons is still a hustle player. Though you tried to make the comparisons to Devin Booker and Giannis Antetokounmpo. Those guys are Elite at what they do.

Devin Booker is an Elite scorer who can drop 20+ points a quarter in any given night and takeover games. He did that time after time last season where he had multiple games of that stature. He also dropped 70 points late in the season which shows you how great of a scorer he is.

Giannis Antetokounmpo I was skeptical about since he was drafted. But unlike Payton and Gordon he just got better and better every year adding different facets to his game. Like his dribbling, passing, and his ability to get to the rim and score at an elite level (Which those steps took 3 years initially). Then this year he proved me wrong and just put it all together and heightened his basketball IQ + Skills and became this star player in his 4th year.

And mind you these guys themselves are both 20 and 22 years of age. Though for Booker he's on a losing team, his age and his offensive ability overrides his team's losing.

SOUL wrote:But that's your opinion, it's not a fact. Just like my opinion of them still having way more to show is an opinion as well. You're betting on the fact that Aaron and Payton will be nothing but role players in the NBA at the ages of 21 and 23. I think they've shown considerable improvement (once Aaron moved to PF) and are on the right track for their ages relative to what I think their ceilings are.

I've never said my opinions were fact. I'm just observing what I see and responding to what you're saying. If you believe that's how I convey responses then you might have doubts in what you're saying.

Gomagic44 wrote:The point still stands though. I would enjoy the video more if the two of them had produced more. We should be trading at least one of them before the start of next season. Otherwise we will be watching another video next summer waiting for the lottery, and then the next. And each summer in the lottery I get less and less excited about players that have been here, stinking it up for years.

Having said that I wish we ran lobs more with the fast paced offense you see here.


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This forum man... unbelievable. Two of our THIRD YEAR PLAYERS are just starting to figure it out and we are saying lets trade one just because they are not producing like an allstar just yet. Unbelievable. Elf went on a tear late season and almost averaged a triple double, and AG was averaging like 17 and 8 for a long stretch too. Im just so glad the people who make the shots have more patience that some of you guys...

SOUL wrote:

JF5 wrote:They're exciting and love the chemistry, but they're also still below average basketball players after 3 seasons. Why exactly should the Magic invest their future into these guys?

Payton finished statistically as a top 14-16 PG in terms of value/wins added in the regular season (around the likes of Holiday, Schroder, Hill, Rubio) and along with Schroder was the only guard on the list around his age of 22/23. Every other point guard above him is 25-32 years old.

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Gordon since his move to PF:

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

(last year)

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

His post-Ibaka/PF move points per game would be good for second best on the team on average... he also had more 30 point games on the team than anybody else despite being an incomplete offensive player. Did I mention that he's still only 21? He clearly is an impact player when he's playing the PF position.

So I'll let you answer those questions, but you seem convinced we should rid ourselves of both and continue with Fournier and Vucevic so we're always going to be in disagreement about how this team should look going forward.

Even if we don't build around these guys, they will have impact on the team. If they both sign for reasonable contracts, I want both of them here for the foreseeable future.

Love the hype but that table with turnovers vs assists table is ridiculous... Its not even assists PER turnover they are tracking, this is just assists per game. Pointless stat. Of course the players closest to the cutoff (6 assists) are going to have the least turnovers as well. And conversely, of course the guys who dish out 10+ assists are going to have more turnovers. This just seems like a stat made up to make Elf look good...

Gotta be assists PER turnover or theres no point.

JF5 wrote:

SOUL wrote:But that's your opinion, it's not a fact. Just like my opinion of them still having way more to show is an opinion as well. You're betting on the fact that Aaron and Payton will be nothing but role players in the NBA at the ages of 21 and 23. I think they've shown considerable improvement (once Aaron moved to PF) and are on the right track for their ages relative to what I think their ceilings are.

I've never said my opinions were fact. I'm just observing what I see and responding to what you're saying. If you believe that's how I convey responses then you might have doubts in what you're saying.

Yeah, I'm not accusing you of saying your opinions are fact, it just comes off as if their isn't even an option of them becoming more than role players -- it's just how it reads, might not be what you intend.

shadrock wrote:
Love the hype but that table vs assists table is ridiculous... Its not even assists PER turnover they are tracking, this is just assists per game. Pointless stat. Of course the players closest to the cutoff (6 assists) are going to have the least turnovers as well. And conversely, of course the guys who dish out 10+ assists are going to have more turnovers. This just seems like a stat made up to make Elf look good...

Gotta be assists PER turnover or theres no point.

True, but it's just meant to highlight that he is a low turnover player in general which is what you want in a PG. Assist to turnover ratio is a way better way of tracking that sort of thing, but even that is sort of misleading. He was a 5 assist sort of guy when he was sharing it with Fournier and damn near close to 10 when he wasn't.