Stein: Hammond to be Magic GM (updated)

[pepe1991]

Jrue and Teague have done just as much as Jennings in the league. Reality is, none of them are difference makers, or ever have been.

Both have been all-stars; has Jennings?

Jamal Maglore was also an all star at one point.

Does it matter? None of them are needle movers. My point was Hammond swung for the fence on a guy who took his talents overseas and was rated (top 3, #1) in his HS class but had maturity issues. All three were solid. All three do not push a team to another level and all three have flaws. Hammond generally will look for a high upside pick in the draft.

Both Jeff Teague and Holdiay are clear upgrades over Jennings. Not only that, both Teague and Holiday are some of most elite passers in whole league ,creating 15,4 ( Teague )and 14,3 ( Holiday) potential assists per game, both ranked in top 8 . Players who create more potential assists than them : Lebron, Westbrook, Harden, Chris Paul, Wall, Rubio. That's literally it. They contribute to around 33 points per game, they both score over 15 and distribute another 17-18 points per game via assists ( by nba tracking ).

Honestlly, how many players in nba are " needle movers" ?

[Optimus_Steel]

Hammond has one full month to prepare for the draft. That makes me feel better. I was expecting Alex to wait until the last week before the draft to hire someone, like he did last time.

[yoyojw17]

Both have been all-stars; has Jennings?

Jamal Maglore was also an all star at one point.

Does it matter? None of them are needle movers. My point was Hammond swung for the fence on a guy who took his talents overseas and was rated (top 3, #1) in his HS class but had maturity issues. All three were solid. All three do not push a team to another level and all three have flaws. Hammond generally will look for a high upside pick in the draft.

Both Jeff Teague and Holdiay are clear upgrades over Jennings. Not only that, both Teague and Holiday are some of most elite passers in whole league ,creating 15,4 ( Teague )and 14,3 ( Holiday) potential assists per game, both ranked in top 8 . Players who create more potential assists than them : Lebron, Westbrook, Harden, Chris Paul, Wall, Rubio. That's literally it. They contribute to around 33 points per game, they both score over 15 and distribute another 17-18 points per game via assists ( by nba tracking ).

Honestlly, how many players in nba are " needle movers" ?

OH OH OH..... thought that stat was impressive so i did a looksee.... after the allstar games.... Payton was 5th on that list after Harden, Westbrook, wall and rubio.... while playing nearly 5 min less than them all. haha

[Trillen]

Hammond has one full month to prepare for the draft. That makes me feel better. I was expecting Alex to wait until the last week before the draft to hire someone, like he did last time.

Considering how quickly Hennigan was dismissed and the rumors coming out early on you'd think Martins must have been doing research and had his researching team doing work on scouting people for the job for a while in advance

[pepe1991]

Jamal Maglore was also an all star at one point.

Does it matter? None of them are needle movers. My point was Hammond swung for the fence on a guy who took his talents overseas and was rated (top 3, #1) in his HS class but had maturity issues. All three were solid. All three do not push a team to another level and all three have flaws. Hammond generally will look for a high upside pick in the draft.

Both Jeff Teague and Holdiay are clear upgrades over Jennings. Not only that, both Teague and Holiday are some of most elite passers in whole league ,creating 15,4 ( Teague )and 14,3 ( Holiday) potential assists per game, both ranked in top 8 . Players who create more potential assists than them : Lebron, Westbrook, Harden, Chris Paul, Wall, Rubio. That's literally it. They contribute to around 33 points per game, they both score over 15 and distribute another 17-18 points per game via assists ( by nba tracking ).

Honestlly, how many players in nba are " needle movers" ?

OH OH OH..... thought that stat was impressive so i did a looksee.... after the allstar games.... Payton was 5th on that list after Harden, Westbrook, wall and rubio.... while playing nearly 5 min less than them all. haha

Season is 82 games long, not 26 ( or 28 , or 24, can't really remember how many games Magic played after allstar, i belive 26 ?)

[yoyojw17]

Both Jeff Teague and Holdiay are clear upgrades over Jennings. Not only that, both Teague and Holiday are some of most elite passers in whole league ,creating 15,4 ( Teague )and 14,3 ( Holiday) potential assists per game, both ranked in top 8 . Players who create more potential assists than them : Lebron, Westbrook, Harden, Chris Paul, Wall, Rubio. That's literally it. They contribute to around 33 points per game, they both score over 15 and distribute another 17-18 points per game via assists ( by nba tracking ).

Honestlly, how many players in nba are " needle movers" ?

OH OH OH..... thought that stat was impressive so i did a looksee.... after the allstar games.... Payton was 5th on that list after Harden, Westbrook, wall and rubio.... while playing nearly 5 min less than them all. haha

Season is 82 games long, not 26 ( or 28 , or 24, can't really remember how many games Magic played after allstar, i belive 26 ?)

but style of play was 24/26 games.... so it matters. Otherwise.... dario saric still sucks lol

[pepe1991]

OH OH OH..... thought that stat was impressive so i did a looksee.... after the allstar games.... Payton was 5th on that list after Harden, Westbrook, wall and rubio.... while playing nearly 5 min less than them all. haha

Season is 82 games long, not 26 ( or 28 , or 24, can't really remember how many games Magic played after allstar, i belive 26 ?)

but style of play was 24/26 games.... so it matters. Otherwise.... dario saric still sucks lol

Oterwise you compare rookie to third year player who always has individual outbursts when season is lost ?

Elf through years: rookie season November: 7 ppg ,40% FG, 49% free trows, 4,6 apg, 2,2 TO
rookie season March : 13,2 ppg, 458 FG, 57% free trows, 8,4 apg, 3,1 TO

Elf second season: November: 10 ppg, 37% FG,33% for 3, 77% free trows , 6,5 apg
March : 11 ppg, 48% FG 3% for 3 48% free trows, 7,5 APG

Elf third season November : 10,4 ppg ,44% FG, 21% for 3, 53,6% free trows , 5,3 apg
March : 12,7 ppg, 51% FG, 25% for 3 , 72% free trows, 8,4 apg

How about showing some consistency ? If you track his game logs, he had strong January but in February he was unplayable. Just look at that stats: January: 15 ppg, 6,8 apg, 46% FG, 37% for 3 ... same year , another month : 11 ppg, 3,9 apg, 44% FG, 7% for 3 ( yes, seven percent).

Playing him is like having unprotected sex , it can be best thing ever, but you can also get an AIDS .

[SOUL]

"Individual outburts"

What makes more sense, getting on average 4-5 more assists per game consistently since a roster change / style of play change, or just RANDOM outbursts the season is over? Like one day it just clicks in his head, oh the season is over I'm gonna get 4 more assists per game.... nope... it doesn't have to do with playing differently and smaller at all... it doesn't have to do with Vogel proclaiming that he played the wrong style most of the year and finally everybody is in the positions they're supposed to be in.. nah.

It's kind of like global warming. You can refute all the evidence and have your own theories, but what makes the most sense is what there's the most evidence for. There's actual evidence that the roster and play style changed, there's no evidence for a player just to "randomly want to do better" and put up more stats because it's the end of the season.

He was 7 percent.. 1/16. Slightly more than one a game, so he knew he was off.

Fournier was 13/51 as our shooter. Let's not pretend Payton was killing us in Feb.. off of the bench I might add.

Gordon was 2/17.

Vucevic 1/5.

MORE context.. you admit Payton's January was strong, and he got BENCHED in Feb because either Vogel needed a pick me up off of the bench (since him and Vucevic played well off of it earlier in the season), or he was playing bad. Well he wasn't playing bad so I think the second time he got benched was because we needed more punch off of the bench.

OF COURSE his assist numbers are going to be down in that lineup. He's getting less minutes, he's playing with Biyombo, Jeff Green, Mario, DJ, whatever other scrubs we have.

You like to bring numbers out of context a lot, so I'm going to call you out when there's a reason things are different.

[yoyojw17]

Season is 82 games long, not 26 ( or 28 , or 24, can't really remember how many games Magic played after allstar, i belive 26 ?)

but style of play was 24/26 games.... so it matters. Otherwise.... dario saric still sucks lol

Oterwise you compare rookie to third year player who always has individual outbursts when season is lost ?

Elf through years: rookie season November: 7 ppg ,40% FG, 49% free trows, 4,6 apg, 2,2 TO
rookie season March : 13,2 ppg, 458 FG, 57% free trows, 8,4 apg, 3,1 TO

Elf second season: November: 10 ppg, 37% FG,33% for 3, 77% free trows , 6,5 apg
March : 11 ppg, 48% FG 3% for 3 48% free trows, 7,5 APG

Elf third season November : 10,4 ppg ,44% FG, 21% for 3, 53,6% free trows , 5,3 apg
March : 12,7 ppg, 51% FG, 25% for 3 , 72% free trows, 8,4 apg

How about showing some consistency ? If you track his game logs, he had strong January but in February he was unplayable. Just look at that stats: January: 15 ppg, 6,8 apg, 46% FG, 37% for 3 ... same year , another month : 11 ppg, 3,9 apg, 44% FG, 7% for 3 ( yes, seven percent).

Playing him is like having unprotected sex , it can be best thing ever, but you can also get an AIDS .

Well then.....

1st year improvement...... Rookie year improvements (valid argument allowed by you)

2nd year improvement ...... Pre-Allstar game ....Coach that apparently according to most "hated him" (for me ... just didn't place the confidence in him).... well.... hated the team and then gave up on them as a whole. Borrego loosened up the reigns.

3rd year improvements....the coach took the ball out of his hands and then tried to play a style that was not conducive to his playing style and then HE himself loosened the reigns.

trust me.... if these were random flashes in the pan.... i wouldn't have hope for the kid. But the talent is there.... and instead of being quick to prove why "he shouldn't"... i'd rather be focusing on the reasons that evidently shows why "he should" be our point guard and we should not abandon quite just yet. I'd rather add talent in other parts first.

[pepe1991]

"Individual outburts"

What makes more sense, getting on average 4-5 more assists per game consistently since a roster change / style of play change, or just RANDOM outbursts the season is over? Like one day it just clicks in his head, oh the season is over I'm gonna get 4 more assists per game.... nope... it doesn't have to do with playing differently and smaller at all... it doesn't have to do with Vogel proclaiming that he played the wrong style most of the year and finally everybody is in the positions they're supposed to be in.. nah.

It's kind of like global warming. You can refute all the evidence and have your own theories, but what makes the most sense is what there's the most evidence for. There's actual evidence that the roster and play style changed, there's no evidence for a player just to "randomly want to do better" and put up more stats because it's the end of the season.

He was 7 percent.. 1/16. Slightly more than one a game, so he knew he was off.

Fournier was 13/51 as our shooter. Let's not pretend Payton was killing us in Feb.. off of the bench I might add.

Gordon was 2/17.

Vucevic 1/5.

MORE context.. you admit Payton's January was strong, and he got BENCHED in Feb because either Vogel needed a pick me up off of the bench (since him and Vucevic played well off of it earlier in the season), or he was playing bad. Well he wasn't playing bad so I think the second time he got benched was because we needed more punch off of the bench.

OF COURSE his assist numbers are going to be down in that lineup. He's getting less minutes, he's playing with Biyombo, Jeff Green, Mario, DJ, whatever other scrubs we have.

You like to bring numbers out of context a lot, so I'm going to call you out when there's a reason things are different.

Just a question, if he turns back into November self on start of the season and plays like he always plays on start, will you admit you were wrong? I will if he plays great from gates.

[SOUL]

Just a question, if he turns back into November self on start of the season and plays like he always plays on start, will you admit you were wrong? I will if he plays great from gates.

I don't think it's a matter of right or wrong. If we put the ball in his hands and play more uptempo (with an upgraded bench + AG in PF the entire year + possibly a starting lineup change), I think he can play like he did the last few months. Maybe not on that level of triple doubles, but the impact he had. His last year numbers (impact, advanced) have him under all of the elite point guards, and at/above/around the slightly above average/average point guards last year, so at 23 I am hopeful of his future.

If we play like we did last year with slow, half court, Vuc/Ibaka centric offense (although I don't think we have the players to even want to do that anymore), he is not as useful to us and if we want to play like that, we should get another starter or draft somebody like DSJ.

Numbers are misleading at times. I made mental notes of games where Payton's numbers were mediocre/not telling compared to the impact he had, but at the end of the year games are just lumped into good and bad.

I'm sure I've done that with players I'm less high on like Fournier and Vuc as well, so it's unfair for me to judge purely on that. Since I definitely remember games where big numbers meant very little.

I want us to play more like we did the end of last year not only because of Payton being more useful in it, but AG, Fournier, Mario and even Vuc a bit seemed to play better with the lineup being smaller and quicker.

Whoever is on the team I will cheer for, but I want the offense to make sense for the players we plan on keeping long term.

[pepe1991]

Just a question, if he turns back into November self on start of the season and plays like he always plays on start, will you admit you were wrong? I will if he plays great from gates.

I don't think it's a matter of right or wrong. If we put the ball in his hands and play more uptempo (with an upgraded bench + AG in PF the entire year + possibly a starting lineup change), I think he can play like he did the last few months. Maybe not on that level of triple doubles, but the impact he had. His last year numbers (impact, advanced) have him under all of the elite point guards, and at/above/around the slightly above average/average point guards last year, so at 23 I am hopeful of his future.

If we play like we did last year with slow, half court, Vuc/Ibaka centric offense (although I don't think we have the players to even want to do that anymore), he is not as useful to us and if we want to play like that, we should get another starter or draft somebody like DSJ.

Numbers are misleading at times. I made mental notes of games where Payton's numbers were mediocre/not telling compared to the impact he had, but at the end of the year games are just lumped into good and bad.

I'm sure I've done that with players I'm less high on like Fournier and Vuc as well, so it's unfair for me to judge purely on that. Since I definitely remember games where big numbers meant very little.

I want us to play more like we did the end of last year not only because of Payton being more useful in it, but AG, Fournier, Mario and even Vuc a bit seemed to play better with the lineup being smaller and quicker.

Whoever is on the team I will cheer for, but I want the offense to make sense for the players we plan on keeping long term.

It took me some time to analyse Magic season before and after allstar because common sense on this forum is that Magic were sooo much better after allstar game than they were before.


So let's get to the good old numbers, shell we.
First claim ( that nobody argues about ) : Magic were pile of garbage before allstar game:
98,62 - PACE- ranked 19 in NBA. One of slowest teams.
100,5 -offensive rating, second worst in NBA (29#)
107,2- defensive rating (22# best or 8# worst in that )
48,6% - effective field goal percentage (27# in the league )
55,2 TS- last (30#)

Conclusion : pile of ***t

After allstar break
107,77 - PACE (9# in the league )
102,9 -offensive rating (26)
109,9 - (25# best or 5th worst in the league )
48,7% - effective field goal percenage ( 27#)
52,9% (27# TS)

Conclusion: faster. That's it. Faster pile of ***t. As much as their offense improved, and that's not saying much because they were still bottom 4 in offensive rating, TS and eFG% ,their defense declined. So it balenced out by having pretty much same win percentage as they had before allstar game. If we are going even deeeper into stats, despite having more possessions where they should have more open looks, more layups and more easy points that should generate higher eFG% and TS ,team saw almost no improvment in that category as well. So their eFG% improved by whooping 0,1% and TS by 0,7%. Opposite of other high pace teams like Nuggets, Wizards even Kings, who after allstar break were all in top 10 in both eFG and TS. That's just shows how negligible Magic "post allstar improvment" really was.

That feeds into my theory that i never bothered to defend prior today- that only difference for Magic was: it was not Ibaka who was getting his, it was Payton and Gordon. And again, that's not bad thing at all, going to youth direction , but i'm so damn tired of listening how Magic got so much better once when they changed direction. Because they didn't . It's better when youth keeps you in bottom 5 in each and every category than vet who is about to get paid. Problem with Magic is simple- youth is about to get paid as well.

That also feeds into my "individuad outburst " point better than even I thought when i said it. Guy was getting his, team saw no difference. That impact on team should be named " Rudy Gaying".

all data from nba tracking-

[SOUL]

I won't make you look up even more stats, but I'd like to see our starting lineups after the trade vs before the trade.

The bench was historically bad after the trade, just useless most nights. All I cared about at that point was seeing the starting unit be more cohesive.

[pepe1991]

I won't make you look up even more stats, but I'd like to see our starting lineups after the trade vs before the trade.

The bench was historically bad after the trade, just useless most nights. All I cared about at that point was seeing the starting unit be more cohesive.

Few weeks ago i was going through +/- for Magic players (because i really couldn't figure what else to use ) on game to game bases after allstar game . There were games ( at least 5,6 of them ) where bench was getting destroyed but in most cases, in games that Magic lost, starters contributed to that L as much as their bench. There were some embarrassing games .

In general i'm hopeful that with new rookie (whoever he will be ) ,backup PF , maybe new SF roster will be more competitive and in general better. At least some improvment from month to month would be nice without too much hiccups.

[Skybox]

Our roster has SO many areas that need improvement. The areas that MAY be furthest along based on second half play are Gordon and Payton playing together. Unless there is a clear cut star at their positions, I would first look at the other spots on the roster for potential upgrades. A point guard, more than any other spot is affected positively or negatively by system, philosophy, and coaching...and let's face it, the Magic have been a s@#tstorm during Payton's career thus far...I'm strongly in favor of rolling with him a little longer if we can't get a pure point like Ball for guaranteed upgrade. Even if we got Fultz, I'd consider ways for them to play off each other....After those two, I look to a different position to upgrade...These guys are so young when they come out, there is so much growth ahead of them as players these days, even in skill areas. Career numbers are completely misleading for young players because they're basically expected to flounder for a year or two. If you go through the last 3 or 4 drafts, there is only a handful of solid consistent contributors in the league.When you consider the Orlando environment over that period, you'd expect players to get worse, not improve. The Skiles era, in particular, was a devastating setback for the development of some of our young guys (at best a wasted year, but I think mentally more damaging for EP and Mario, especially)..I like Payton's attitude, physical profile, and unselfish play...those are hard things to develop and he's already got them. I think, with a little stability and consistent support, and shooters...he's solid. This is all moot because we'll know in June how the new FO views him.

[SOUL]

I won't make you look up even more stats, but I'd like to see our starting lineups after the trade vs before the trade.

The bench was historically bad after the trade, just useless most nights. All I cared about at that point was seeing the starting unit be more cohesive.

Few weeks ago i was going through +/- for Magic players (because i really couldn't figure what else to use ) on game to game bases after allstar game . There were games ( at least 5,6 of them ) where bench was getting destroyed but in most cases, in games that Magic lost, starters contributed to that L as much as their bench. There were some embarrassing games .

In general i'm hopeful that with new rookie (whoever he will be ) ,backup PF , maybe new SF roster will be more competitive and in general better. At least some improvment from month to month would be nice without too much hiccups.

Gotcha.

I just did it manually, and got that Payton was overall +58 those last 22 games, which means that at the very least he was doing his part, and I assume some of the starters were probably around the same. For as many games as we lost during the end stretch there, I think we were doing good enough with the starters on the floor for certain periods of time, certainly better than earlier on in the season. I still think our biggest need besides a star is our bench, it was downright awful last season.

[yoyojw17]

Just a question, if he turns back into November self on start of the season and plays like he always plays on start, will you admit you were wrong? I will if he plays great from gates.

I don't think it's a matter of right or wrong. If we put the ball in his hands and play more uptempo (with an upgraded bench + AG in PF the entire year + possibly a starting lineup change), I think he can play like he did the last few months. Maybe not on that level of triple doubles, but the impact he had. His last year numbers (impact, advanced) have him under all of the elite point guards, and at/above/around the slightly above average/average point guards last year, so at 23 I am hopeful of his future.

If we play like we did last year with slow, half court, Vuc/Ibaka centric offense (although I don't think we have the players to even want to do that anymore), he is not as useful to us and if we want to play like that, we should get another starter or draft somebody like DSJ.

Numbers are misleading at times. I made mental notes of games where Payton's numbers were mediocre/not telling compared to the impact he had, but at the end of the year games are just lumped into good and bad.

I'm sure I've done that with players I'm less high on like Fournier and Vuc as well, so it's unfair for me to judge purely on that. Since I definitely remember games where big numbers meant very little.

I want us to play more like we did the end of last year not only because of Payton being more useful in it, but AG, Fournier, Mario and even Vuc a bit seemed to play better with the lineup being smaller and quicker.

Whoever is on the team I will cheer for, but I want the offense to make sense for the players we plan on keeping long term.

It took me some time to analyse Magic season before and after allstar because common sense on this forum is that Magic were sooo much better after allstar game than they were before.


So let's get to the good old numbers, shell we.
First claim ( that nobody argues about ) : Magic were pile of garbage before allstar game:
98,62 - PACE- ranked 19 in NBA. One of slowest teams.
100,5 -offensive rating, second worst in NBA (29#)
107,2- defensive rating (22# best or 8# worst in that )
48,6% - effective field goal percentage (27# in the league )
55,2 TS- last (30#)

Conclusion : pile of ***t

After allstar break
107,77 - PACE (9# in the league )
102,9 -offensive rating (26)
109,9 - (25# best or 5th worst in the league )
48,7% - effective field goal percenage ( 27#)
52,9% (27# TS)

Conclusion: faster. That's it. Faster pile of ***t. As much as their offense improved, and that's not saying much because they were still bottom 4 in offensive rating, TS and eFG% ,their defense declined. So it balenced out by having pretty much same win percentage as they had before allstar game. If we are going even deeeper into stats, despite having more possessions where they should have more open looks, more layups and more easy points that should generate higher eFG% and TS ,team saw almost no improvment in that category as well. So their eFG% improved by whooping 0,1% and TS by 0,7%. Opposite of other high pace teams like Nuggets, Wizards even Kings, who after allstar break were all in top 10 in both eFG and TS. That's just shows how negligible Magic "post allstar improvment" really was.

That feeds into my theory that i never bothered to defend prior today- that only difference for Magic was: it was not Ibaka who was getting his, it was Payton and Gordon. And again, that's not bad thing at all, going to youth direction , but i'm so damn tired of listening how Magic got so much better once when they changed direction. Because they didn't . It's better when youth keeps you in bottom 5 in each and every category than vet who is about to get paid. Problem with Magic is simple- youth is about to get paid as well.

That also feeds into my "individuad outburst " point better than even I thought when i said it. Guy was getting his, team saw no difference. That impact on team should be named " Rudy Gaying".

all data from nba tracking-

How bout we look at his affect on the game and and not factor in the crap that goes on the court when he's not there.

http://stats.nba.com/players/advanced/#!?sort=PIE&dir=-1&CF=MIN*GE*25&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&SeasonSegment=Post%20All-Star&PlayerPosition=G

post allstar game .... looks like he takes a pretty decent piece of the PIE... and has a positive net rating on the team.

Note he is 15th on the list of guards in the whole nba that plays more than 25 min per game.... and is the second youngest... only to Giannis.

Not tryin to call the guy our darn savior .... but just that he does not deserve as much flack as people give him. The guy is doing well.... not in the flashy new car way that everyone might wanted... but he's doing well!

[BlueBalls]

We're better off now than with Hennigan here - he's an upgrade, but anyone would have been. But these 2 hires just don't get me excited. And I'm dying to be excited. Trade up for Fultz and you'll have me.

[yoyojw17]

We're better off now than with Hennigan here - he's an upgrade, but anyone would have been. But these 2 hires just don't get me excited. And I'm dying to be excited. Trade up for Fultz and you'll have me.

lol.... goes appropriately with your name... "blueballs"

[pepe1991]

I don't think it's a matter of right or wrong. If we put the ball in his hands and play more uptempo (with an upgraded bench + AG in PF the entire year + possibly a starting lineup change), I think he can play like he did the last few months. Maybe not on that level of triple doubles, but the impact he had. His last year numbers (impact, advanced) have him under all of the elite point guards, and at/above/around the slightly above average/average point guards last year, so at 23 I am hopeful of his future.

If we play like we did last year with slow, half court, Vuc/Ibaka centric offense (although I don't think we have the players to even want to do that anymore), he is not as useful to us and if we want to play like that, we should get another starter or draft somebody like DSJ.

Numbers are misleading at times. I made mental notes of games where Payton's numbers were mediocre/not telling compared to the impact he had, but at the end of the year games are just lumped into good and bad.

I'm sure I've done that with players I'm less high on like Fournier and Vuc as well, so it's unfair for me to judge purely on that. Since I definitely remember games where big numbers meant very little.

I want us to play more like we did the end of last year not only because of Payton being more useful in it, but AG, Fournier, Mario and even Vuc a bit seemed to play better with the lineup being smaller and quicker.

Whoever is on the team I will cheer for, but I want the offense to make sense for the players we plan on keeping long term.

It took me some time to analyse Magic season before and after allstar because common sense on this forum is that Magic were sooo much better after allstar game than they were before.


So let's get to the good old numbers, shell we.
First claim ( that nobody argues about ) : Magic were pile of garbage before allstar game:
98,62 - PACE- ranked 19 in NBA. One of slowest teams.
100,5 -offensive rating, second worst in NBA (29#)
107,2- defensive rating (22# best or 8# worst in that )
48,6% - effective field goal percentage (27# in the league )
55,2 TS- last (30#)

Conclusion : pile of ***t

After allstar break
107,77 - PACE (9# in the league )
102,9 -offensive rating (26)
109,9 - (25# best or 5th worst in the league )
48,7% - effective field goal percenage ( 27#)
52,9% (27# TS)

Conclusion: faster. That's it. Faster pile of ***t. As much as their offense improved, and that's not saying much because they were still bottom 4 in offensive rating, TS and eFG% ,their defense declined. So it balenced out by having pretty much same win percentage as they had before allstar game. If we are going even deeeper into stats, despite having more possessions where they should have more open looks, more layups and more easy points that should generate higher eFG% and TS ,team saw almost no improvment in that category as well. So their eFG% improved by whooping 0,1% and TS by 0,7%. Opposite of other high pace teams like Nuggets, Wizards even Kings, who after allstar break were all in top 10 in both eFG and TS. That's just shows how negligible Magic "post allstar improvment" really was.

That feeds into my theory that i never bothered to defend prior today- that only difference for Magic was: it was not Ibaka who was getting his, it was Payton and Gordon. And again, that's not bad thing at all, going to youth direction , but i'm so damn tired of listening how Magic got so much better once when they changed direction. Because they didn't . It's better when youth keeps you in bottom 5 in each and every category than vet who is about to get paid. Problem with Magic is simple- youth is about to get paid as well.

That also feeds into my "individuad outburst " point better than even I thought when i said it. Guy was getting his, team saw no difference. That impact on team should be named " Rudy Gaying".

all data from nba tracking-

How bout we look at his affect on the game and and not factor in the crap that goes on the court when he's not there.

http://stats.nba.com/players/advanced/#!?sort=PIE&dir=-1&CF=MIN*GE*25&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&SeasonSegment=Post%20All-Star&PlayerPosition=G

post allstar game .... looks like he takes a pretty decent piece of the PIE... and has a positive net rating on the team.

Note he is 15th on the list of guards in the whole nba that plays more than 25 min per game.... and is the second youngest... only to Giannis.

Not tryin to call the guy our darn savior .... but just that he does not deserve as much flack as people give him. The guy is doing well.... not in the flashy new car way that everyone might wanted... but he's doing well!

PIE is interesting data but , just like PER ( it's NBA version of PER as far as i know ) it's in favor of PGs and Cs because they have monopoly over rebounds and assists on most teams. (For example, Derrick Rose has higher PER than Klay Thompson, Booker, Middleton, Redick...). Also, just like PER , PIE ignores defense and puts whole defensive side of a game in two boxes: steals and blocks.

So, if you look at PIE leaders, 34# most valuable player in the league is - Nikola Vučević, over Paul George, Irving and McCollum.

I'm hopeful that Payton can improve, to be honest i'm just tired of moral victories and i hope team can turn things around in near future.