Win now or rebuild?

jbent87 · Post #41 » by **jbent87** » Wed May 31, 2017 8:43 pm

Some of you guys are funny... win now? really? How? What is the ceiling to those wins? Does this team at its ceiling beat out the Bulls/Heat this last season for the 8 seed? I don't think it does.

Sell high on super athlete 3/4 Aaron Gordon who can't shoot now while you still can.
Sell Elf while he's still young.
Sell Fournier to a win now team who needs a 6th man. Nobody wants him as a starter.
Sell Vuc to someone who will remember the 20/20 games he used to put up and think they could squeeze some out of him still.

What else is there? Hezonja? Terrance Ross? I guess...

MasterGMer · Post #42 » by **MasterGMer** » Wed May 31, 2017 10:39 pm

Our young talent is drastically under-rated by RealGM fans.

They may not be playing at the level as we want. But it does not mean they won't.

Harkless
Kyle OQuinn
Dewayne Dedmon
Oladipo

My point? We don't have to panic. Magic is going to have a future with one critical move to land us a star.

Our roster is fine and they just need to develop. (and thank God that we have a front office who will take care of that)

JF5 · Post #43 » by **JF5** » Thu Jun 1, 2017 12:56 am

MasterGMer wrote:Our young talent is drastically under-rated by RealGM fans.

They may not be playing at the level as we want. But it does not mean they won't.

Harkless
Kyle OQuinn
Dewayne Dedmon
Oladipo

My point? We don't have to panic. Magic is going to have a future with one critical move to land us a star.

Our roster is fine and they just need to develop. (and thank God that we have a front office who will take care of that)

The Magic were always able to get decent to good talent. The problem was not having a transcendent player that could get them to the playoffs. Only having medial talent only gets you in a position where you're on brink of the playoffs at best.

Also, the fact the front office was so committed to making the playoffs in the short term the last several seasons that they traded away assets prior that could've made it easier to trade for a DeMarcus Cousins.

Now this squad is one of the least talented teams in the league with so many spare parts who don't fit. Most of the starters that this team has according to NBA scouts would be considered 6th men at best on a winning team which is telling.

I would agree the fans should not panic as we start a new chapter. But I sure as hell won't delude myself into believing they're on the brink of even being close to decent any time soon.

Max Power · Post #44 » by **Max Power** » Thu Jun 1, 2017 3:44 am

Do I think the Magic are in "win now" mode? No. But I do think Weltman and Hammond are in improve as quickly as possible mode. The organization has to start winning to make a profit. In the end, that's what this all about, unsuccessful businesses close, and the Magic have been unsuccessful for 5 straight years. If they were a restaurant they'd have closed 3 years ago.

The Magic will look to acquire a star, both in free agency, draft and through trade. They have to, it's the only way to keep the fanbase interested in spending money on them is if the prospects for the team change drastically. Fan patience is at an all time low. With all that said, it's a difficult task, and obviously none of us can predict a star will emerge here, all we can do is hope step 1 produces a promising star rookie on draft night. The fans need a shot of inspiration from this team badly.

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npiper17 · Post #45 » by **npiper17** » Thu Jun 1, 2017 9:09 am

Skin wrote:As fans we have to be able to distinguish between GM talk and reality. Weltman saying he wants to win quickly cannot be taken with literal interpretation. There is no other answer he can give being in the position that he is.

On the other hand, we can expect that our young players will be given more playing time because he emphasized that player development will be a big priority.

I think we will try to win now with youth... but the worry to win now won't be as high as it will be 2-3 years into this Weltman/Hammond Era.

That's just it, Weltman didn't say he wants to win quickly. He was very specific about that. He said their job is to be as good as possible as quickly as possible. It's basically saying we'll be as good as we can be which might mean we're terrible but that's okay.

MagicalPatience · Post #46 » by **MagicalPatience** » Thu Jun 1, 2017 1:25 pm

Of course we're not in win-now mode. We're in kind of a fast tracker re-rebuild. Now that we are in the lottery in a good draft, there's little incentive to "tank/fake-tank" again. Hopefully we get a few young guys who can make a difference and we start to improve year by year, sort of like the Magic from 2004-2007. Then in 2007 we landed our target free agent in Rashard Lewis, we grew as a team, and started our 3-4 years of dominance a year later. Yes, we didn't win a ring, but we were consistently at the top of the east until Dwightmare. I know it sucks to wait another 3-5 years, but I think we might have to.

I think we need to evaluate which guys to keep, and which to sell while value is high. I think Gordon and Payton could work with more guys around them, like Isaac or Tatum. They're not Alphas who can be the number 1 option. We all know that now. But the weak minded guys "loser" guys like Fournier and Vucevic may need to go. I love Vucevic too, but I can't see him leading us. And please do something with Biyombo and his no offense self. He's really hard to watch. Either hook him up with an offensive coach or ship him out.

Optimus_Steel · Post #47 » by **Optimus_Steel** » Sun Jun 4, 2017 12:01 am

Team is in trouble really with not many options. The only hope I see is being good at drafting and combining that with lots of luck, kinda how teams passed on guys like Paul George, Giannis, and Butler. That and being lucky in trades, like trading for a unheralded player and them blowing up. Like Isiah Thomas, no one thought he would lead the league in scoring or Lowry turning into an allstar.

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fa2011 · Post #48 » by **fa2011** » Sun Jun 4, 2017 2:03 am

Who are we winning with? We've been stuck in rebuilding for about 5 seasons or so ... lol. A better questions is who are we drafting, trading, or signing to get us out of rebuilding mode?

Skin · Post #49 » by **Skin** » Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:30 pm

What we have to do is simple.

1) Clear cap space.
2) Collect and develop young players.
3) If those players are not capable of attracting big named stars, then we have to trade them before they hit RFA.

#3 is the hardest thing for GMs to do because they have invested time into these players and they are just starting to show hope. But for us it's been false hope. Guys like Vucevic and Fournier should never have received new deals. We should've traded them for draft picks before they hit RFA. Same goes for Tobias. Should've traded him at the trade deadline before he hit RFA when his value was highest. If Payton and Gordon are not stars by midseason, ship their asses off.

We CANNOT keep replicating our problems and then wondering why we suck. This league is not about medicority. Even being above average is not good enough. You have to have GREAT players and ONLY invest long term in them.

Don't be fooled by "we must retain the asset".

If we finally start developing real stars out of the picks we get, THEN when they are blossoming, big named FAs will come. But they will only come if we have the cap space and young stars to play with. Players like Tobias, Fournier, Vucevic or Oladipo were never good enough to draw stars. We would be in a better spot without them and replacing them with 1st round draft picks. Signing Biyombo, and Augustin are now players we have to figure out how to dump.

BadMofoPimp · Post #50 » by **BadMofoPimp** » Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:32 pm

Bizmark and DJ should not have been given deals at all. Both are priorities to be moved.

ralphie9898 · Post #51 » by **ralphie9898** » Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:13 am

Max Power wrote:Do I think the Magic are in "win now" mode? No. But I do think Weltman and Hammond are in improve as quickly as possible mode. The organization has to start winning to make a profit. In the end, that's what this all about, unsuccessful businesses close, and the Magic have been unsuccessful for 5 straight years. If they were a restaurant they'd have closed 3 years ago.

The Magic will look to acquire a star, both in free agency, draft and through trade. They have to, it's the only way to keep the fanbase interested in spending money on them is if the prospects for the team change drastically. Fan patience is at an all time low. With all that said, it's a difficult task, and obviously none of us can predict a star will emerge here, all we can do is hope step 1 produces a promising star rookie on draft night. The fans need a shot of inspiration from this team badly.

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we don't have the cap space to sign a star free agent nor are would we even be that attractive if we did. Also we don't have the assets to trade for a star unless we are willing to trade the 6th pick as well as some of the better talent we have. Also I disagree that the pressure is on the new front office to win now. Yeah we have been bad for a while but that isn't their fault. I think they will have at least as much time as we gave Hennigan.

Post #52 » by **eyriq** » Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:29 am

I think there are three overarching frameworks within which you can evaluate moves; rebuild, win-now, and fine-tuning

Rebuild is trading a veteran for a draft pick/rookie contract
Win-now is trading a draft pick/rookie contract for a veteran
Fine-tuning is trading like for like and gunning for chemistry

Or an even more abstract way of saying it,

Rebuild is trading current production for potential production
Win-now is trading potential production for current production
Fine-tuning is trading for fit

Hennigan jumped the gun and started win-now moves and wanted to sell the end product as something that would be ready for some fine-tuning. With the trade of Ibaka we went back into rebuild mode, even though he tried insisting he was a few moves away....

I honestly have no doubt that all the moves we make this year will continue along in that vein. We are rebuilding. I expect we'll explore trades for Vecevic, Fournier, and Biyambo with an eye for rookie contracts and/or future draft picks.

I don't think we are at the beginning stages of a rebuild though, not with Gordon, Payton, Hezonja, and a lottery pick / later first round pick about to join the team.

NickAndersonsBack25 · Post #53 » by **NickAndersonsBack25** » Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:56 am

MasterGMer wrote:What exactly is going to be the strategy next season? Will the new front office have the pressure to take this team to playoff?

rebuild by tanking or not anymore?

Thinking we could "win now", just like this past season?

Lots of unknown all perspective. Hope things get clarified after the draft.

Go Magic

This is really a question for AG00

Post #54 » by **Bensational** » Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:25 am

Now that we've signed Simmons, we're definitely on track to win now. He's gonna be like the wing version of Ben Wallace, coming into the league late in life and then becoming a superstar. 8)

I'm happy to see how the team competes up until the ASB. If we're winning, keep at it. If we're losing, lose harder.

drsd · Post #55 » by **drsd** » Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:48 am

Bensational wrote:Now that we've signed Simmons, we're definitely on track to win now. He's gonna be like the wing version of Ben Wallace, coming into the league late in life and then becoming a superstar. 8)

I'm happy to see how the team competes up until the ASB. If we're winning, keep at it. If we're losing, lose harder.

I think the (eventual) signing of Birch adds to this. A team can never have to many overachievers. Simmons and Birch bring a work ethic and maturity that will help this team grow.

//

IllMagic04 · Post #56 » by **IllMagic04** » Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:50 pm

We need to rebuild. Win now means playing the guys that help us win now as opposed to playing the guys we need to develop. Rebuild rebuild rebuild. Try to trade Vuc and Evan at the deadline.

Nemesis21 · Post #57 » by **Nemesis21** » Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:54 pm

eyriq wrote:I think there are three overarching frameworks within which you can evaluate moves; rebuild, win-now, and fine-tuning

Rebuild is trading a veteran for a draft pick/rookie contract
Win-now is trading a draft pick/rookie contract for a veteran
Fine-tuning is trading like for like and gunning for chemistry

Or an even more abstract way of saying it,

Rebuild is trading current production for potential production
Win-now is trading potential production for current production
Fine-tuning is trading for fit

Hennigan jumped the gun and started win-now moves and wanted to sell the end product as something that would be ready for some fine-tuning. With the trade of Ibaka we went back into rebuild mode, even though he tried insisting he was a few moves away....

I honestly have no doubt that all the moves we make this year will continue along in that vein. We are rebuilding. I expect we'll explore trades for Vecevic, Fournier, and Biyambo with an eye for rookie contracts and/or future draft picks.

I don't think we are at the beginning stages of a rebuild though, not with Gordon, Payton, Hezonja, and a lottery pick / later first round pick about to join the team.

This is false. He was pressured by Devos & Martins. They screwed things up. Hennigan wanted to build through the draft.

NickAndersonsBack25 · Post #58 » by **NickAndersonsBack25** » Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:47 am

I'd try to overpay for a guy like David Lee to try and mentor the team.

drsd · Post #59 » by **drsd** » Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:29 pm

NickAndersonsBack25 wrote:I'd try to overpay for a guy like David Lee to try and mentor the team.

The Magic has no cap-space to overpay anyone. Augustin and Biyombo need to be shipped for such a desire to be possible.

..

NickAndersonsBack25 · Post #60 » by **NickAndersonsBack25** » Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:44 pm

drsd wrote:
NickAndersonsBack25 wrote:I'd try to overpay for a guy like David Lee to try and mentor the team.

The Magic has no cap-space to overpay anyone. Augustin and Biyombo need to be shipped for such a desire to be possible.

..

Rank and file propaganda excuse from cheap owners. FIRE POOR DEVOS.