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Re-Rebuild Challenge: How would you have rebuilt the Magic post-Dwight?

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Re-Rebuild Challenge: How would you have rebuilt the Magic post-Dwight? 

Post#1 » by Bensational » Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:50 am

For a bit of offseason fun, how would you have rebuilt the Magic now with a bit of hindsight?

Imagine you've been hired as GM instead of Hennigan. Dwight is still on the team, but he wants out, and has indicated he won't resign when his contract is up. The team is in cap hell.

ROSTER
Dwight/BBD
Anderson/Clark
Hedo/QRich
JRich/JJ
Nelson/Duhon/Ish Smith

What deals would you have made to rebuild the team?

For the sake of keeping it somewhat realistic, let's keep draft picks and trades to 'credible' ideas - as in, picking Giannis in the next draft with the #1 pick was never going to happen, and you can't trade Dwight for Anthony Davis. Here's a list of player transactions from that offseason. Here's a list of notable traded players, which should help establish names that were available at the time:

TRADED PLAYERS
Harden (traded from Oklahoma to Houston)
Bynum (traded from Lakers to Philadelphia)
Igoudala (traded from Philadelphia to Denver)
Nash (traded from Phoenix to Lakers)
Joe Johnson (traded from Atlanta to Brooklyn)
Lowry (traded from Houston to Toronto)
Kevin Martin (traded from Houston to Oklahoma)
Jeremy Lamb (traded from Houston to Oklahoma)
Arron Afflalo (traded from Denver to Orlando)
Marcus Camby (traded from Houston to New York)
Courtney Lee (traded from Houston to Boston)
Robin Lopez (traded from Phoenix to New Orleans)

So, Magic fans, what would your team look like after that offseason, and what would you aim to do moving forwards?
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Re: Re-Rebuild Challenge: How would you have rebuilt the Magic post-Dwight? 

Post#2 » by NickAndersonsBack25 » Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:29 am

i wouldn't have done the EP trade. Didn't we give PHI their own pick back for this year's draft, which would have been protected.
I would have drafted LaVine instead. I'm a dumbass and probably wouldn't have found the Fournier trade.
i didn't like the harris trade nor any of last season's moves.
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Re: Re-Rebuild Challenge: How would you have rebuilt the Magic post-Dwight? 

Post#3 » by Melvinlocker » Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:00 am

Hindsight is always 20/20, but I'll try to give it a whirl. We could have tried a three team trade sending Dwight to Houston and assets to OKC. ORL nets James Harden in the deal. We can't drop Duhon or Clark, but we still manage to get rid of JRich. Then we sign Jordan Hill to a two year deal and re-sign Anderson and roll out the season with this lineup.

Hill/BBD
Anderson/Clark
Turk/Richardson
Harden/Redick
Nelson/Duhon

We would probably finish in the middle of the pack and would be in position to draft Rudy Gobert in the 2013 NBA draft and we'd have some contracts coming off the books.
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Re: Re-Rebuild Challenge: How would you have rebuilt the Magic post-Dwight? 

Post#4 » by BballIsLife11 » Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:38 am

Bensational wrote:For a bit of offseason fun, how would you have rebuilt the Magic now with a bit of hindsight?

Imagine you've been hired as GM instead of Hennigan. Dwight is still on the team, but he wants out, and has indicated he won't resign when his contract is up. The team is in cap hell.

ROSTER
Dwight/BBD
Anderson/Clark
Hedo/QRich
JRich/JJ
Nelson/Duhon/Ish Smith

What deals would you have made to rebuild the team?

For the sake of keeping it somewhat realistic, let's keep draft picks and trades to 'credible' ideas - as in, picking Giannis in the next draft with the #1 pick was never going to happen, and you can't trade Dwight for Anthony Davis. Here's a list of player transactions from that offseason. Here's a list of notable traded players, which should help establish names that were available at the time:

TRADED PLAYERS
Harden (traded from Oklahoma to Houston)
Bynum (traded from Lakers to Philadelphia)
Igoudala (traded from Philadelphia to Denver)
Nash (traded from Phoenix to Lakers)
Joe Johnson (traded from Atlanta to Brooklyn)
Lowry (traded from Houston to Toronto)
Kevin Martin (traded from Houston to Oklahoma)
Jeremy Lamb (traded from Houston to Oklahoma)
Arron Afflalo (traded from Denver to Orlando)
Marcus Camby (traded from Houston to New York)
Courtney Lee (traded from Houston to Boston)
Robin Lopez (traded from Phoenix to New Orleans)

So, Magic fans, what would your team look like after that offseason, and what would you aim to do moving forwards?


I would have traded Dwight to Brooklyn, LA, Houston or whoever wanted him for 3 future 1st round picks along with a young asset and them taking on a Duhon. I would have then proceeded to tank the proper way for the next 3-4 years while giving the young guys a lot more playing time and responsibility than we did.
As much of hope as I had for Rob, I am still confused to this day why he did things the way we did. At the time I blamed whichever coach it was for not playing our rookies/2nd year players, but at the end it was all 4 coaches that did the same thing.. gotta think Rob had serious influence on that decision making.
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Re: Re-Rebuild Challenge: How would you have rebuilt the Magic post-Dwight? 

Post#5 » by Howard Mass » Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:11 am

NickAndersonsBack25 wrote:i wouldn't have done the EP trade. Didn't we give PHI their own pick back for this year's draft, which would have been protected.
I would have drafted LaVine instead. I'm a dumbass and probably wouldn't have found the Fournier trade.
i didn't like the harris trade nor any of last season's moves.


Philadelphia is likely to be out of the top-8 this year so The Magic likely would have gotten that pick in 2018. They also gave up their 2015 2nd.

It was extortion and Hennigan should have held his ground. It still ticks me off but do not want to get to the point where I am derailing discussion.
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Re: Re-Rebuild Challenge: How would you have rebuilt the Magic post-Dwight? 

Post#6 » by Howard Mass » Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:17 am

In the beginning, Hennigan did ok.

I never was on board with Nicholson and would have picked Sullinger although that has not worked out. A few players were missed in that Draft.

in 2013, I wish they would have traded for another first in the mid to late round as it was projected that was where the value was going to be.

I did like Rudy Gobert back then for the record.

In 2014, I would not have done the Elfrid Payton extortion where they give up a likely late lotto or mid-first from Philly this year and a high 2015 2nd. Hinkie was screwing around and Hennigan should have held his ground. I've always hated that deal.

Aaron Gordon does look like a good pick at #4 when I would have gone Exum (He still could pan out) or Randle.

In 2015, I would have drafted Cauley-Stein.

After that, it went downhill for Hennigan with the Harris deal he was forced to do, Gordon at SF and a disasterous 2016 offseason.
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Re: Re-Rebuild Challenge: How would you have rebuilt the Magic post-Dwight? 

Post#7 » by drsd » Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:39 am

Howard Mass wrote:In the beginning, Hennigan did ok.


I agree.

Even in line-sight, the moves former-GM Hennigan made all make sense. Harris was never the answer to any question and needed to be shipped. And Oladipo was not better than Fournier and needed to go.

Could former-GM Hennigan have gotten better assets for his trades? Probably not. Every time the Magic needed to make a deal is was a buyers market and the Magic thus routinely got 80¢ to the dollar.

...

On thing I did like about trading for Ibaka is that it proved to Magic brass that Gordon is totally incapable of playing SF. That was useful.


..
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Re: Re-Rebuild Challenge: How would you have rebuilt the Magic post-Dwight? 

Post#8 » by Skin » Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:46 am

CORE BELIEFS
#1 - TANK - No ifs ands or buts about it!...I would've manipulated the roster to make it bad enough to lose even if they were trying. Really would've pushed hard for 3 tough years of tanking.

#2 - LET YOUTH REIGN - I would've played the young guys right away. Screw the vets.

#3 - DRAFT BPA THAT FITS A NEED - I don't believe in drafting straight BPA that overlaps the same position. Especially during a rebuild. It only delays progress and can create disharmony in a period where building chemistry is so critical. A GM shows trust in his ability to scout when he builds a team while filling needs instead of replicating talent at the same position.

#4 - SEEK AFFORDABLE FA ADDITIONS - Sign veterans who know they will be backups. Not looking to sign big named stars. Not looking for saviors.

I'll just go with the Dwight, Ryno and Redick trades and I give credit to Henny for pulling those off. Not going to include the AA/Fournier trade. But here's what I would do thereafter...

------------------------------------

2013
- DRAFT - OLADIPO. ...in the debates leading up to the draft, I fought for Dipo over BMac. Never would've traded him out of ORL.
- FA - Save money for the future

2014
- DRAFT - EMBIID. ...can't believe we were just 1 pick away. An honest tank would've secured him.
- DRAFT - LAVINE. ...would've stayed at #12 and drafted Zach. I remember thinking that he wouldn't last to 12.
- FA - Save money for the future. Let Vucevic walk away in FA if I couldn't trade him at the deadline. Not a team player.

2015
- DRAFT - PORZINGIS. ...again, I can't believe we were just 1 pick away. Poor tanking created devastating ramifications on our rebuild.
- RFA - HARRIS. ...would've given Tobias his contract extension. Without AG on the roster, I would've kept full faith in Tobias.
- RFA - O'QUINN. ...would've kept KOQ instead of letting him sign for $4M per year with NY. He was great for team chemistry.
- FA - BEVERLY. ...would've beaten HOU's offer to Patrick Beverly (he only got 3 years, $25M)
- FA - BIYOMBO. ...would've beaten TOR's offer to Bismack Biyombo (he only got 2 years, $6M)

2016
- DRAFT - PRINCE. ...would've drafted Taurean Prince #11 overall. Stupid Ibaka trade.
- RFA - OLADIPO. ...would've given Victor his contract extension.

2017
- DRAFT - EVANS. ...with a mid to late 1st rounder, I would've taken Jawun Evans.
- DRAFT - IWUNDU. ...i'm perfectly fine with selecting Iwundu in Round 2.
- DRAFT - BELL. ...would've kept our 2nd rounder to take Jordan Bell.
- FA - SIMMONS. ...i really like the Jonathon Simmons signing. Didn't see that one coming, so that's a keeper.


MAGIC ROSTER 2017-18

PG Zach Lavine / Patrick Beverly / Jawun Evans
SG Victor Oladipo / Jonathon Simmons
SF Tobias Harris / Taurean Prince / Wesley Iwundu
PF Kristaps Porzingis / Kyle O'Quinn / Jordan Bell
C Joel Embiid / Bismack Biyombo
Jett Howard, Franz Wagner, Paolo Banchero, Jonathan Isaac, Wendell Carter Jr
Anthony Black, Cole Anthony, Jalen Suggs, Joe Ingles, Chuma Okeke, Mo Wagner, Goga Bitadze LESSSGOOO!!!
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Re: Re-Rebuild Challenge: How would you have rebuilt the Magic post-Dwight? 

Post#9 » by Xatticus » Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:35 am

I really wanted Harden at the time. I thought he was underappreciated in OKC simply because he wasn't starting. He was terrific in the playoffs up until the finals. It was fairly common knowledge at the time that OKC didn't want to pay the tax. I thought a Harden and Ibaka for Howard trade would've suited both sides. It looks absurd in retrospect, but it didn't at the time.
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Re: Re-Rebuild Challenge: How would you have rebuilt the Magic post-Dwight? 

Post#10 » by npiper17 » Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:00 pm

The only problem with trading Dwight to somewhere like Houston was that, at the time, he and his agent Dan Fegan had made it known league-wide that he was only interested in Brooklyn or the Lakers.

Don't forget that Dwight was an FA the following summer so if you're trading him to somewhere like Houston then you'd need to be looking at a return similar to what Indiana got from OKC this summer with the threat that Paul George will leave.
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Re: Re-Rebuild Challenge: How would you have rebuilt the Magic post-Dwight? 

Post#11 » by OrlChamps2030 » Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:51 pm

Trade Dwight to Brooklyn for all of their picks, truly bottom out, then don't draft Mario Hezonja
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Re: Re-Rebuild Challenge: How would you have rebuilt the Magic post-Dwight? 

Post#12 » by ORL » Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:52 pm

Howard Mass wrote:Philadelphia is likely to be out of the top-8 this year so The Magic likely would have gotten that pick in 2018. They also gave up their 2015 2nd.

It was extortion and Hennigan should have held his ground. It still ticks me off but do not want to get to the point where I am derailing discussion.


How sure are you they won't be top 8? Would it change your opinion of the trade if the pick is top 8 this year?
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Re: Re-Rebuild Challenge: How would you have rebuilt the Magic post-Dwight? 

Post#13 » by OrlDave » Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:54 pm

Melvinlocker wrote:Hindsight is always 20/20, but I'll try to give it a whirl. We could have tried a three team trade sending Dwight to Houston and assets to OKC. ORL nets James Harden in the deal. We can't drop Duhon or Clark, but we still manage to get rid of JRich. Then we sign Jordan Hill to a two year deal and re-sign Anderson and roll out the season with this lineup.

Hill/BBD
Anderson/Clark
Turk/Richardson
Harden/Redick
Nelson/Duhon

We would probably finish in the middle of the pack and would be in position to draft Rudy Gobert in the 2013 NBA draft and we'd have some contracts coming off the books.


Don't you think it we could have traded Dwight for Harden we would have done so? Brook Lopez was the only big named guy I ever heard in connection with Dwight and he's meh.
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Re: Re-Rebuild Challenge: How would you have rebuilt the Magic post-Dwight? 

Post#14 » by Nyce_1 » Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:38 pm

I can't start from 2012, cause that would take me forever, so I'll take everything as is until 2016 offseason and start from there.

2016
Don't trade for Ibaka
#11 draft Sabonis
trade #41 + future 2nd for Cheick Diallo (#33)
re-sign Fournier to his deal
re-sign Dedmon (3yrs/$15M)
do not sign Biz

negotiate extension with Vic. A lot of money tied into SG position but we'd figure it out. Word is he wanted MAX if staying in Orl, so I would hope we could've negotiated the same money he got from OKC.

sign Augustin (3yrs/$18M). In retrospect, he's not a good fit here, but at the time I liked the addition (not the money). We finally had a decent backup PG to support EP. I wanted Lin but his contract is over what we would've paid for a backup.

sign Jared Dudley (3yrs/$30M) to same contract suns gave him. Ultimate vet that could still play and be a great vet for your young guys.

Payton/Augustin/Watson
Dipo/Fournier/Meeks
Dudley/Mario
Gordon/Sabonis
Vuc/Dedmon/Diallo

2017
Trade Deadline:
I would've accepted Sacramento's offer for Cousins. Vuc & Fournier are gone.

Payton/Augustin/Watson
Dipo/Meeks
Dudley/Mario
Gordon/Sabonis
Cousins/Dedmon/Diallo

Offseason - Magic still fire Hennigan. Missing the playoffs for 5th year in a row, time for a change.

Draft: At this point, I'd love to have that #6 pick. Maybe we still do with a bad year, but with AG at PF all year and Dipo still here, we likely end up in the back of the lotto. With the 12th pick of the 2017 draft, Orlando Magic select....

Donovan Mitchell.

New management love him and he's a great combo 6th man. Can easily play with EP or Dipo and steps into the same role Smart has in Boston, but a better/smarter player.

#25 doesn't exist with no Ibaka to trade.
#33 (Lakers 2nd) we draft: Iwundu. (staying management's decision)
#43 (Magic pick) traded last year in deal for Diallo

WE HAVE A TRADE: The Indiana Pacers have traded Paul George to the Orlando Magic for Victor Oladipo & Sabonis
roster before free agency begins:

Payton ($3.3M)/Augustin ($6M)/Watson ($5M)
Mitchell/Iwundu (both rookies unsigned)
George ($19M)/Dudley ($10M)/Hezonja ($4M)
Gordon($5.5M)/Diallo ($1.3M)
Cousins ($16.7M)/Dedmon ($5M)

with $75M in committed salary + 2 roster spot cap holds, that leaves us with ~$79 guaranteed money. Giving us a total of ~$20M in cap space to use.

do I sign KCP to fill new hole at SG with Vic gone or be patient and get Simmons for the deal we got? Or maybe bring back Redick on a 3yr deal? His age (33) is a factor but his skill, IQ, and experience is great for the roster.

another decision is what to do with Payton. At this point, we have to keep Boogie and PG happy and Reggie Jackson ($18M) is one of PG's good friends. Good lead guard but heath issues worry me. Do we gamble on a better shooter than Elf or role and hope he becomes adequate as a shooter off of PG and Cousins? Geroge Hill maybe?

Payton/Augustin/Watson
???/Mitchell/Iwundu
George/Dudley/Hezonja
Gordon/Diallo
Cousins/Dedmon

Magic waive CJ Watson (clears $4M in cap space)
Magic sign Jonathon Simmons to same deal he got (3yrs/18M)
Magic sign Anthony Tolliver to deal he got with Pisons (1yr/3.3M)

Magic still have ~$15M in cap space & room exception (4.3M)

Magic sign Redick (3yrs/50M) *i know I'm off by a couple $$$ but cut me some slack
Magic S&T for Jamychal Green (3yrs/11M): send Memphis Dudley, Demon, & Iwundu

Payton/Augustin
Redick/Simmons/Mitchell
George/Hezonja
Gordon/Green/
Cousins/Diallo

* could make a case of signing George Hill instead of Redick and run with Simmons as AG with Elf off the bench
* could also argue Jamychal Green isn't worth that or needed
* picks I may have redone with time is McCollum over Vic, Exum & Hood over Gordon/Payton, WCS/Turner over Mario

edit 7/25: With Kyrie on the block, I do everything I can to add him to my roster. With Payton/Gordon/Mitchell/Diallo/Mario/Augustin available, I'd try to make an aggressive offer to get this done. Doubt we have the pieces to get it done alone but could surely elicit a 3rd team to get salaries to work.

Imagine going into 2017 season with:
Irving/
Redick/Simmons
George/Hezonja
Green/
Cousins/Diallo
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Re: Re-Rebuild Challenge: How would you have rebuilt the Magic post-Dwight? 

Post#15 » by Howard Mass » Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:42 pm

ORL wrote:
Howard Mass wrote:Philadelphia is likely to be out of the top-8 this year so The Magic likely would have gotten that pick in 2018. They also gave up their 2015 2nd.

It was extortion and Hennigan should have held his ground. It still ticks me off but do not want to get to the point where I am derailing discussion.


How sure are you they won't be top 8? Would it change your opinion of the trade if the pick is top 8 this year?


No, it would not as it was still extortion and if it is not a first, it will have been three seconds.

Hennigan should have called his bluff and maybe just given one future second to trade up.

I will never consider that a trade.
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Re: Re-Rebuild Challenge: How would you have rebuilt the Magic post-Dwight? 

Post#16 » by ORL » Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:52 pm

Howard Mass wrote:
ORL wrote:
Howard Mass wrote:Philadelphia is likely to be out of the top-8 this year so The Magic likely would have gotten that pick in 2018. They also gave up their 2015 2nd.

It was extortion and Hennigan should have held his ground. It still ticks me off but do not want to get to the point where I am derailing discussion.


How sure are you they won't be top 8? Would it change your opinion of the trade if the pick is top 8 this year?


No, it would not as it was still extortion and if it is not a first, it will have been three seconds.

Hennigan should have called his bluff and maybe just given one future second to trade up.

I will never consider that a trade.


Of all his shortcomings as a GM, I don't see this trade as one. I would actually put good $ that Philly will have a top 8 worst record next year, and that this first rounder will actually be two seconds.

Considering how freely seconds get moved these days, it's really not awful for a player he at the time had great hopes for (this shortcoming I can't be defend).

This would of course change if Philly somehow someway gets out of top 8 this year, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
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Re: Re-Rebuild Challenge: How would you have rebuilt the Magic post-Dwight? 

Post#17 » by Howard Mass » Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:55 pm

drsd wrote:
Howard Mass wrote:In the beginning, Hennigan did ok.


I agree.

Even in line-sight, the moves former-GM Hennigan made all make sense. Harris was never the answer to any question and needed to be shipped. And Oladipo was not better than Fournier and needed to go.

Could former-GM Hennigan have gotten better assets for his trades? Probably not. Every time the Magic needed to make a deal is was a buyers market and the Magic thus routinely got 80¢ to the dollar.

...

On thing I did like about trading for Ibaka is that it proved to Magic brass that Gordon is totally incapable of playing SF. That was useful.


..


Harris is a 6th man who is a tweener and should play 4. Even though he was better than Gordon at 3, it still hurt this team when he was at the 3,

They could have gotten a future first thrown in for Harris and better used the cap space. After all, I wanted to sign and trade Harris the previous summer.

The Ibaka could have been ok if he was used as a center or they had a three big rotation with him, Gordon and Vucevic. That obviously didn't happen. It did suck to see the same package net Paul George who no one was going to give much for because it's assumed he is going to The Lakers next year. People need to understand that part though.

I always knew Gordon was a 4 and wish it took management much less time to see that.
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Re: Re-Rebuild Challenge: How would you have rebuilt the Magic post-Dwight? 

Post#18 » by Howard Mass » Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:56 pm

ORL wrote:
Howard Mass wrote:
ORL wrote:
How sure are you they won't be top 8? Would it change your opinion of the trade if the pick is top 8 this year?


No, it would not as it was still extortion and if it is not a first, it will have been three seconds.

Hennigan should have called his bluff and maybe just given one future second to trade up.

I will never consider that a trade.


Of all his shortcomings as a GM, I don't see this trade as one. I would actually put good $ that Philly will have a top 8 worst record next year, and that this first rounder will actually be two seconds.

Considering how freely seconds get moved these days, it's really not awful for a player he at the time had great hopes for (this shortcoming I can't be defend).

This would of course change if Philly somehow someway gets out of top 8 this year, but I wouldn't hold my breath.


ORL,

Even if it is 3 seconds, I hate it.

It's very possible they are in the top-8 though.
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Re: Re-Rebuild Challenge: How would you have rebuilt the Magic post-Dwight? 

Post#19 » by JaxMagic » Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:01 pm

I actually liked the core that Henny built but it all fell apart after the 2015 draft IMO. If we could've tanked a little harder and got Porzingis it would've made a world of difference. I also would've liked to keep Seth Curry around and never would've hired Skiles.

PG - E.Payton/S.Curry
SG - V.Oladipo/E.Fournier
SF - T.Harris/M.Harkless
PF - K.Porzingis/A.Gordon/K.O'Quinn
C - N.Vucevic/D.Dedmon

That would've been fun to watch.
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Re: Re-Rebuild Challenge: How would you have rebuilt the Magic post-Dwight? 

Post#20 » by p0peye » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:35 pm

I'm not gonna enlist moves in hindsight, but admit that Henny did much, much better job than I would've done up to 2015 draft. That much is given, so I'll start from there.

2015 draft: I really wanted us to take WCS.
2016 trade deadline: take a pass on dealing Harris or at least ask for a 1st in that trade.
2016 draft: Take Timothe Luwawu Cabarrot with Pistons pick (in case we got one in Harris trade).
2016 offseason: I'd do Ibaka trade, but wouldn't sign Biyombo to that contract (remember, we have WCS on the roster). Ask Vogel to explore playing Ibaka at C more.
2017 trade deadline: Deal Vučević and Fournier for Cousins. I'd do Ibaka/Ross trade if it's still not working.
2017 draft: I wanted DSJ at 6th. Draft Caleb Swanigan at 25. Draft and stash Jonah Bolden at 35.
2017 offseason: Deal Payton for Garry Harris. Sign Simmons.

Roster:
PG: Dennis Smith Jr. / DJ Augustin
SG: Garry Harris /Jonathon Simmons / Wesley Iwundu
SF: Terrence Ross / Timothe Luwawu Cabarrot (or Tobias Harris)
PF: Aaron Gordon / Caleb Swanigan
C: DeMarcus Cousins / Willie-Cauley Stein

Besides Boogie, we have no big contracts (Biyombo, Fournier, Vučević - all gone).

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