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TMAC is my favorite player of all time and watching the HOF presentation got me thinking which part of the induction was due to his time here. We had fun watching him in Toronto with Vince and he was part of a dynamic team in Houston but he lead the Magic mostly by himself.

932 total career regular-season games played
TOR: 192 games played = 20.6%
ORL: 295 games played = 31.6%
HOU: 303 games played = 32.5%

18381 total career regular-season points scored
TOR: 2122 points scored = 11.5%
ORL: 8298 points scored = 45%
HOU: 6888 points scored = 37%

Time with NYK, DET, ATL, and SAS not included

Cool to see he only played 8 more games with Houston vs Orlando yet scored 1410 more points for the Magic.

I initially thought he was a lot more successful in Houston but he only played in 5 more playoff games there than in Orlando. Also he never played in more than 7 playoff games in a year.

I know there is much more to an HOF career than points scored and games played so what do you think?

When I think of Houston T-Mac all I think of are injuries. Orlando T-Mac is the definitive T-Mac.

Won't drag his overall legacy down because of lackluster post-season accomplishments, it is what it is and he never had great success in the playoffs. He just was a phenomenal player. His best seasons were up there with the best seasons of all time... and they happened in Orlando.

Toronto T-Mac: The cousin of Vince Carter but still a very good player
Orlando T-Mac: Breaks out as the amazing scorer, the guy who could do it all, one of the best in the league, prime was up there with Kobe (or even better than Kobe's prime)
Houston T-Mac: Great scorer, still amazing player, legendary 13 points in 35 seconds, but started to bulk up and slowed down, injuries, downward spiral

So, with that said, I'd say when people think of how great T-Mac was, he should be remembered as an Orlando great, before a Houston great. Way more, actually. He was MEGA ELITE here, his best seasons were NBA all-time greats and he wore a Magic jersey during those seasons.

Not sure about % though, although his games played are higher in Houston by mere 8, you can see his scoring was killer in Orlando and he just was so smooth and capable of anything here.. I think people will remember his 13-in-35 on Houston, but also being unable to do much damage in the post-season with Yao. Sure, he blew a 3-1 lead in Orlando and was on bad teams here, but his playing was something else.

So, this might be biased, definately is, but I'll go with majority, say 70% of the "Ahhh yes, the legend of the amazing T-Mac" belongs to Orlando.

I think that T mac gets away with lot of things he did just based on nostalgia acts.

Guy was ,at best Rudy Gay on the floor who had potential to be Durant before Durant, but never actually delivered when it mattered.

Landscape of the East between 2000 and 2004 was playground for guys like T mac who would trow 24-30 FGA per game, average 30 ,advanced ( or never advance like in his case ) to nba finals ( or even to second round, like in his case ) just to lose to serious teams from West, mostly Spurs and Lakers.

Look at teams who advancd from East : 2001 76ers ( Iverson- Mckie- 35 years old Mutombo- Eric Snow )
2002 ( Kidd- Martin- Van Horn- Kitles -Todd MacCulloch )
2003 Nets again ( Jefferson instad of Horn and Collins instad of Todd ).

Again, those are teams that played in nba finals. In mean time T mac couldn't carry team through first round against :
2001 Bucks
2002 freaking Hornets
2003, Pistons after jumping on 3-1

It's impossible to look at his numbers and turn blind eye on a fact that he never won playoff series in his life until he become third string SF and basically a guy who sits next to POp in the suit with Spurs years after his basketball prime.

His stats are impressive, but 7 times allstar, hall of famer, playing first time in his life second round of playoffs 15 yeras after his rookie season is pretty much laughable . It's awarding individual success over team in team sport. I would prefer rushing Duncan in hoF over getting T Mac ( ever ). What's difference between him and Marbury, Francis, Jermain Onail, Shareef Abdur Rahim or any other 20+ ppg scorer from early 00s? Hell, Baron Davis can make argument for himself, at least he had one of biggest upsets in nba history with Warriors.

MOdern comparison to him is Westbrook last season. Gets 30 FGA, 30% usage rate, goes to vacation in first week of April.

Tell us how you really feel, pepe.

In tmacs defense, the Magic had a HORRIBLE TEAM Andrew declercq, pat Garrity, Troy Hudson, and Darrell Armstrong were his best players. As much as I hate what he did to the magic, Tmac was one of the best players in the 2000s.

I believe the number 1 should be retired in honor of both Penny and Tmac.

OrlMagic05 wrote:In tmacs defense, the Magic had a HORRIBLE TEAM Andrew declercq, pat Garrity, Troy Hudson, and Darrell Armstrong were his best players. As much as I hate what he did to the magic, Tmac was one of the best players in the 2000s.

I believe the number 1 should be retired in honor of both Penny and Tmac.

True. I really think we did a terrible job building around him. Part of it is because of Grant Hill. But still..

pepe1991 wrote:I think that T mac gets away with lot of things he did just based on nostalgia acts.

Guy was ,at best Rudy Gay on the floor who had potential to be Durant before Durant, but never actually delivered when it mattered.

Landscape of the East between 2000 and 2004 was playground for guys like T mac who would trow 24-30 FGA per game, average 30 ,advanced ( or never advance like in his case ) to nba finals ( or even to second round, like in his case ) just to lose to serious teams from West, mostly Spurs and Lakers.

Look at teams who advancd from East : 2001 76ers ( Iverson- Mckie- 35 years old Mutombo- Eric Snow )
2002 ( Kidd- Martin- Van Horn- Kitles -Todd MacCulloch )
2003 Nets again ( Jefferson instad of Horn and Collins instad of Todd ).

Again, those are teams that played in nba finals. In mean time T mac couldn't carry team through first round against :
2001 Bucks
2002 freaking Hornets
2003, Pistons after jumping on 3-1

It's impossible to look at his numbers and turn blind eye on a fact that he never won playoff series in his life until he become third string SF and basically a guy who sits next to POp in the suit with Spurs years after his basketball prime.

His stats are impressive, but 7 times allstar, hall of famer, playing first time in his life second round of playoffs 15 yeras after his rookie season is pretty much laughable . It's awarding individual success over team in team sport. I would prefer rushing Duncan in hoF over getting T Mac ( ever ). What's difference between him and Marbury, Francis, Jermain Onail, Shareef Abdur Rahim or any other 20+ ppg scorer from early 00s? Hell, Baron Davis can make argument for himself, at least he had one of biggest upsets in nba history with Warriors.

MOdern comparison to him is Westbrook last season. Gets 30 FGA, 30% usage rate, goes to vacation in first week of April.

Those Magic teams he was on were awful... They had guys who were equivalent to NBA D-Leaguers open up the season as starters (Britton Johnsen and Pat Burke). Plus washed up versions of Shawn Kemp and Patrick Ewing saw minutes on this team. His 2nd Options varied between guys like Mike Miller/Darrell Armstrong/Drew Gooden/Troy Hudson. I mean come on that's horrible...

For him to carry the team to the playoffs year in and year out the way he did with such a lack of talent was admirable. You compare those teams to the contenders at the time. Those teams had pretty good role-players/solid rotational players that did their jobs fairly well. Its easy to say oh look at these other teams, but not realize that the systems they were put in made them thrive.

JF5 wrote:

pepe1991 wrote:I think that T mac gets away with lot of things he did just based on nostalgia acts.

Guy was ,at best Rudy Gay on the floor who had potential to be Durant before Durant, but never actually delivered when it mattered.

Landscape of the East between 2000 and 2004 was playground for guys like T mac who would trow 24-30 FGA per game, average 30 ,advanced ( or never advance like in his case ) to nba finals ( or even to second round, like in his case ) just to lose to serious teams from West, mostly Spurs and Lakers.

Look at teams who advancd from East : 2001 76ers ( Iverson- Mckie- 35 years old Mutombo- Eric Snow )
2002 ( Kidd- Martin- Van Horn- Kitles -Todd MacCulloch )
2003 Nets again ( Jefferson instad of Horn and Collins instad of Todd ).

Again, those are teams that played in nba finals. In mean time T mac couldn't carry team through first round against :
2001 Bucks
2002 freaking Hornets
2003, Pistons after jumping on 3-1

It's impossible to look at his numbers and turn blind eye on a fact that he never won playoff series in his life until he become third string SF and basically a guy who sits next to POp in the suit with Spurs years after his basketball prime.

His stats are impressive, but 7 times allstar, hall of famer, playing first time in his life second round of playoffs 15 yeras after his rookie season is pretty much laughable . It's awarding individual success over team in team sport. I would prefer rushing Duncan in hoF over getting T Mac ( ever ). What's difference between him and Marbury, Francis, Jermain Onail, Shareef Abdur Rahim or any other 20+ ppg scorer from early 00s? Hell, Baron Davis can make argument for himself, at least he had one of biggest upsets in nba history with Warriors.

MOdern comparison to him is Westbrook last season. Gets 30 FGA, 30% usage rate, goes to vacation in first week of April.

Those Magic teams he was on were awful... They had guys who were equivalent to NBA D-Leaguers open up the season as starters (Britton Johnsen and Pat Burke). Plus washed up versions of Shawn Kemp and Patrick Ewing saw minutes on this team. His 2nd Options varied between guys like Mike Miller/Darrell Armstrong/Drew Gooden/Troy Hudson. I mean come on that's horrible...

For him to carry the team to the playoffs year in and year out the way he did with such a lack of talent was admirable. You compare those teams to the contenders at the time. Those teams had pretty good role-players/solid rotational players that did their jobs fairly well. Its easy to say oh look at these other teams, but not realize that the systems they were put in made them thrive.

76ers got carried by Iverson to nba finals with terrible roster as well. Hornets 2002 SL was: Davis-Elden Campbell- Wesely- PJ Brown and George Lynch.

Again, Magic roster was indeed terrible and had almost no talent but him, but it was same story for pretty much each and every team from East in that period. Even strong Pistons , in reality were not that great ,especially before Rasheed. They had good SG, average SF ,borderline allstar at PG and defensive center with no offense. Zero allstars ( at that point ).

pepe1991 wrote:
76ers got carried by Iverson to nba finals with terrible roster as well. Hornets 2002 SL was: Davis-Elden Campbell- Wesely- PJ Brown and George Lynch.

Again, Magic roster was indeed terrible and had almost no talent but him, but it was same story for pretty much each and every team from East in that period. Even strong Pistons , in reality were not that great ,especially before Rasheed. They had good SG, average SF ,borderline allstar at PG and defensive center with no offense. Zero allstars ( at that point ).

The east was weak, but the Magic never really had the defense like the Pistons/Nets/Sixers/Pacers had at the time that kept those teams at the top (As they always finished near or at the bottom of the league). Nor did they ever have the consistent offensive options after McGrady with Miller and Armstrong ever being the closest options at various points. Those other teams had spread scoring where they were 4-5 guys deep when it came to offense (Outside of the Sixers).

When you put those two together you've got a team that without a Superstar caliber player would most likely be a team fighting Cleveland and Denver at the time for the title as the worst team in the NBA. But with McGrady he was able to get them into the playoffs 3/4 seasons.

McGrady was a 2 time 1st Team All-NBA player, and 2 time 2nd Team All-NBA player with the Magic. He was beating out other elite perimeter players like Allen Iverson/Kobe Bryant/Jason Kidd/Vince Carter for those accolades, and its unfortunate that most people didn't see how great he was during that time period and kind of discredit his output. It was a time where people debated on who was the best perimeter player between McGrady or Bryant. He was that good...

JF5 wrote:

pepe1991 wrote:
76ers got carried by Iverson to nba finals with terrible roster as well. Hornets 2002 SL was: Davis-Elden Campbell- Wesely- PJ Brown and George Lynch.

Again, Magic roster was indeed terrible and had almost no talent but him, but it was same story for pretty much each and every team from East in that period. Even strong Pistons , in reality were not that great ,especially before Rasheed. They had good SG, average SF ,borderline allstar at PG and defensive center with no offense. Zero allstars ( at that point ).

The east was weak, but the Magic never really had the defense like the Pistons/Nets/Sixers/Pacers had at the time that kept those teams at the top (As they always finished near or at the bottom of the league). Nor did they ever have the consistent offensive options after McGrady with Miller and Armstrong ever being the closest options at various points. Those other teams had spread scoring where they were 4-5 guys deep when it came to offense (Outside of the Sixers).

When you put those two together you've got a team that without a Superstar caliber player would most likely be a team fighting Cleveland and Denver at the time for the title as the worst team in the NBA. But with McGrady he was able to get them into the playoffs 3/4 seasons.

McGrady was a 2 time 1st Team All-NBA player, and 2 time 2nd Team All-NBA player with the Magic. He was beating out other elite perimeter players like Allen Iverson/Kobe Bryant/Jason Kidd/Vince Carter for those accolades, and its unfortunate that most people didn't see how great he was during that time period and kind of discredit his output. It was a time where people debated on who was the best perimeter player between McGrady or Bryant. He was that good...

i'll send you video of his shot selection in game 7 vs pistons , tell me how many times he could pass for better shot and how many shots were flat out terrible
;t=109s

It simply wasn't winning basketball. Contested ,step back fadeaway 3s, stepback jumpers, forcing to shoot over double team.

For example 0:38 in vide, they are running set play where action is made to give corner 3, instad T mac ignores set block and takes contested FGA for 2 over two defenders.
At 2:38 he scores but in reality plays 1 on 5 whole possession and that's T mac in nutshell. Some success playing low IQ basketball.
He was player that could be Kobe, but i also belive that Kobe can only blame himself why he didn't finsih career with 7 rings mostly because of his shot selection and ego. In my eyes Kobe is smartest low IQ basketball player ever (or stupidest high IQ basketball ever ). It's oxymoron by definition, but somebody that skilled but in same time so overconfident to point of being delusinal about his ability to score was his biggest strenght and biggest weakness. It was strenght against Magic when he buried them, and weakness when he shoot Lakers out of Celtics series (almost twice )

pepe1991 wrote:

JF5 wrote:

pepe1991 wrote:
76ers got carried by Iverson to nba finals with terrible roster as well. Hornets 2002 SL was: Davis-Elden Campbell- Wesely- PJ Brown and George Lynch.

Again, Magic roster was indeed terrible and had almost no talent but him, but it was same story for pretty much each and every team from East in that period. Even strong Pistons , in reality were not that great ,especially before Rasheed. They had good SG, average SF ,borderline allstar at PG and defensive center with no offense. Zero allstars ( at that point ).

The east was weak, but the Magic never really had the defense like the Pistons/Nets/Sixers/Pacers had at the time that kept those teams at the top (As they always finished near or at the bottom of the league). Nor did they ever have the consistent offensive options after McGrady with Miller and Armstrong ever being the closest options at various points. Those other teams had spread scoring where they were 4-5 guys deep when it came to offense (Outside of the Sixers).

When you put those two together you've got a team that without a Superstar caliber player would most likely be a team fighting Cleveland and Denver at the time for the title as the worst team in the NBA. But with McGrady he was able to get them into the playoffs 3/4 seasons.

McGrady was a 2 time 1st Team All-NBA player, and 2 time 2nd Team All-NBA player with the Magic. He was beating out other elite perimeter players like Allen Iverson/Kobe Bryant/Jason Kidd/Vince Carter for those accolades, and its unfortunate that most people didn't see how great he was during that time period and kind of discredit his output. It was a time where people debated on who was the best perimeter player between McGrady or Bryant. He was that good...

i'll send you video of his shot selection in game 7 vs pistons , tell me how many times he could pass for better shot and how many shots were flat out terrible

Watch on YouTube

;t=109s

It simply wasn't winning basketball. Contested ,step back fadeaway 3s, stepback jumpers, forcing to shoot over double team.

For example 0:38 in vide, they are running set play where action is made to give corner 3, instad T mac ignores set block and takes contested FGA for 2 over two defenders.
At 2:38 he scores but in reality plays 1 on 5 whole possession and that's T mac in nutshell. Some success playing low IQ basketball.
He was player that could be Kobe, but i also belive that Kobe can only blame himself why he didn't finsih career with 7 rings mostly because of his shot selection and ego. In my eyes Kobe is smartest low IQ basketball player ever (or stupidest high IQ basketball ever ). It's oxymoron by definition, but somebody that skilled but in same time so overconfident to point of being delusinal about his ability to score was his biggest strenght and biggest weakness. It was strenght against Magic when he buried them, and weakness when he shoot Lakers out of Celtics series (almost twice )

That's possibly the worst series to reference against McGrady.

Magic were an 8th seed, Pistons were the 1st Seed.

McGrady scorched the Pistons with 43 in a game one victory and 46 in a game 2 loss where he accounted for 46 of the 77 points scored from the Magic. I vividly remember that game 2 because McGrady was literally the only one able to score down the stretch in that game.

He led the team to a 3-1 lead over the Pistons averaging 36.2 ppg off 51% Shooting Overall at that point of the series... Remind you, the Pistons were the best defensive team that season.

After the series was over he averaged 31.8 PPG off 44% Shooting Overall... The only other Magic player to average more than double figures was Drew Gooden who shot 40% during the series.

Looking further into the stats, he was the only starter to have over a 100 ORtg (110) while overall on the only other players to have played significant minutes have over 100 was Darrell Armstrong (who was coming off the bench).

Even though you look at this game 7 and he was awful. You can't dismiss what he did prior... Context matters here...

It's a shame t-mac went in the hof as a rocket and usually gets represented more as a rocket. T-mac clearly had his best years in Orlando. He was arguably the best scorer in the league the 4 years he was here. While he did well his first 2 or 3 season hon Houston it just wasn't the same t-mac as his Orlando years. In terms of play and marketability as well. It sucks that he and no real talent with him on the magic cause the dude was such a force on the offensive end from 2000-2007

JF5 wrote:

pepe1991 wrote:

JF5 wrote:
The east was weak, but the Magic never really had the defense like the Pistons/Nets/Sixers/Pacers had at the time that kept those teams at the top (As they always finished near or at the bottom of the league). Nor did they ever have the consistent offensive options after McGrady with Miller and Armstrong ever being the closest options at various points. Those other teams had spread scoring where they were 4-5 guys deep when it came to offense (Outside of the Sixers).

When you put those two together you've got a team that without a Superstar caliber player would most likely be a team fighting Cleveland and Denver at the time for the title as the worst team in the NBA. But with McGrady he was able to get them into the playoffs 3/4 seasons.

McGrady was a 2 time 1st Team All-NBA player, and 2 time 2nd Team All-NBA player with the Magic. He was beating out other elite perimeter players like Allen Iverson/Kobe Bryant/Jason Kidd/Vince Carter for those accolades, and its unfortunate that most people didn't see how great he was during that time period and kind of discredit his output. It was a time where people debated on who was the best perimeter player between McGrady or Bryant. He was that good...

i'll send you video of his shot selection in game 7 vs pistons , tell me how many times he could pass for better shot and how many shots were flat out terrible

Watch on YouTube

;t=109s

It simply wasn't winning basketball. Contested ,step back fadeaway 3s, stepback jumpers, forcing to shoot over double team.

For example 0:38 in vide, they are running set play where action is made to give corner 3, instad T mac ignores set block and takes contested FGA for 2 over two defenders.
At 2:38 he scores but in reality plays 1 on 5 whole possession and that's T mac in nutshell. Some success playing low IQ basketball.
He was player that could be Kobe, but i also belive that Kobe can only blame himself why he didn't finsih career with 7 rings mostly because of his shot selection and ego. In my eyes Kobe is smartest low IQ basketball player ever (or stupidest high IQ basketball ever ). It's oxymoron by definition, but somebody that skilled but in same time so overconfident to point of being delusinal about his ability to score was his biggest strenght and biggest weakness. It was strenght against Magic when he buried them, and weakness when he shoot Lakers out of Celtics series (almost twice )

That's possibly the worst series to reference against McGrady.

Magic were an 8th seed, Pistons were the 1st Seed.

McGrady scorched the Pistons with 43 in a game one victory and 46 in a game 2 loss where he accounted for 46 of the 77 points scored from the Magic. I vividly remember that game 2 because McGrady was literally the only one able to score down the stretch in that game.

He led the team to a 3-1 lead over the Pistons averaging 36.2 ppg off 51% Shooting Overall at that point of the series... Remind you, the Pistons were the best defensive team that season.

After the series was over he averaged 31.8 PPG off 44% Shooting Overall... The only other Magic player to average more than double figures was Drew Gooden who shot 40% during the series.

Looking further into the stats, he was the only starter to have over a 100 ORtg (110) while overall on the only other players to have played significant minutes have over 100 was Darrell Armstrong (who was coming off the bench).

Even though you look at this game 7 and he was awful. You can't dismiss what he did prior... Context matters here...

I used game 7 because that mattered the most ( and game 4 i guess ), he simply took bad shots . If defense is good than you should play to benefit them taking horrific shots.
To me that game is presentation of 00s "allstars" , heroball , doing Westbrook before Westbrook.

We could talk about 2001 series where he averaged 31,5 FGA on 41,5% FG and 20% for 3 against Bucks

I just belive that if he was actually as good as people act he was ,he would win one playoff series during his 7 years as allstar ( hell even MVP candidate ) . Yet ,he ended up being guy who was collecting his stats on 40 wins teams and lost in first round each and every time through whole career.
People today bust Melo for lack of playoff success, Melo did more in his second year in playoffs than T mac in 14.

When i see T mac i really can't see anything else but Rudy Gay like career with wasted potential to be Kobe/Lebron/Durant level of player.

pepe1991 wrote:
I used game 7 because that mattered the most ( and game 4 i guess ), he simply took bad shots . If defense is good than you should play to benefit them taking horrific shots.
To me that game is presentation of 00s "allstars" , heroball , doing Westbrook before Westbrook.

We could talk about 2001 series where he averaged 31,5 FGA on 41,5% FG and 20% for 3 against Bucks

I just belive that if he was actually as good as people act he was ,he would win one playoff series during his 7 years as allstar ( hell even MVP candidate ) . Yet ,he ended up being guy who was collecting his stats on 40 wins teams and lost in first round each and every time through whole career.
People today bust Melo for lack of playoff success, Melo did more in his second year in playoffs than T mac in 14.

When i see T mac i really can't see anything else but Rudy Gay like career with wasted potential to be Kobe/Lebron/Durant level of player.

You can't condense a series into 1 game. That's like saying Robert Horry is the greatest finals performer because that's where he always shows up in the big moments. But forgetting guys like Shaq/Kobe/Duncan/Hakeem massive performances and impact that put him in the place/position to succeed in the first place.

Again you look at the series stats themselves (and not even having the eye test) and see what McGrady had to work with offensively. I feel its a bit crazy to blame him when nobody else even played consistently decent enough to take the load off his shoulders. Especially at one point where he accounted for nearly half of the teams points. That's pretty insane...

Plus, that statement in itself is ridiculous about bad shots. ALL great players/shooters take horrific shots. But the difference between them and and a regular player is that they consistently knock down those bad shots.

Curry takes a whole bunch of terrible shots night in and night out but they continuously go in because he's that good. He's a Back-to-back MVP winner and a 2-time NBA champion. So does his game not produce wins?

Kobe Bryant took a WHOLE bunch of bad shots but he has 5 rings. 2 as the man, was his game counter-productive to winning?

Larry Bird would shoot shots over the backboard against two players. But hey, his 3 rings don't matter because he has a "low basketball IQ".

One of the kings of bad shots, Michael Jordan has 6 titles. But naw, his "low basketball IQ" of shot taking stopped him from winning 10.

This is where its a slippery soap. There are loads of great players in NBA history who don't have playoff success. When there are only 3-4 teams a seasons who have a shot a title and a few players that really get to touch that plane. There is no room for any other star to shine BECAUSE those other 25-27 teams who aren't good enough. Statistically there are more all-star/stars/superstars spread out on other teams than there are concentrated on those yearly contenders, so MOST of those great players don't get past the 1st or 2nd round because they happen to run into those teams on a year to year basis.

This is the problem as to why Superstar/star players team up now-a-days via free-agency to form Superteams because fans criticize these guys for not being able to win on their own. Kevin Durant was being questioned for not being able to win a title, so what did he do? He went to an already stacked team to further his personal goal of winning multiple titles. Now people are upset because he left a team where he was unable to win a title and had issues roster building (as they got rid of significant pieces that got them to the finals in the first place the years prior). Either way he was going to get killed but now he has the titles. Same thing that happened with LeBron a few years prior when he was unable to surpass the Celtics and Magic when the Cavs were first seed for multiple seasons, and questioned if LeBron was a winner.

Coaching/Roster Building/Overall talent matter... Having only one Superstar player on an average to below average team guarantees you'll be fighting for a playoff spot every year. But when there are superior rosters/teams than yours in the playoffs, you can only get so far.

MagicStarwipe wrote:When I think of Houston T-Mac all I think of are injuries. Orlando T-Mac is the definitive T-Mac.

This is it in a nutshell.

My only wish is that his 13 points in the last 35 seconds game happened in a magic uni.

Did T-Mac go into the Hall with a Magic jersey?

JF5 wrote:

pepe1991 wrote:
I used game 7 because that mattered the most ( and game 4 i guess ), he simply took bad shots . If defense is good than you should play to benefit them taking horrific shots.
To me that game is presentation of 00s "allstars" , heroball , doing Westbrook before Westbrook.

We could talk about 2001 series where he averaged 31,5 FGA on 41,5% FG and 20% for 3 against Bucks

I just belive that if he was actually as good as people act he was ,he would win one playoff series during his 7 years as allstar ( hell even MVP candidate ) . Yet ,he ended up being guy who was collecting his stats on 40 wins teams and lost in first round each and every time through whole career.
People today bust Melo for lack of playoff success, Melo did more in his second year in playoffs than T mac in 14.

When i see T mac i really can't see anything else but Rudy Gay like career with wasted potential to be Kobe/Lebron/Durant level of player.

You can't condense a series into 1 game. That's like saying Robert Horry is the greatest finals performer because that's where he always shows up in the big moments. But forgetting guys like Shaq/Kobe/Duncan/Hakeem massive performances and impact that put him in the place/position to succeed in the first place.

Again you look at the series stats themselves (and not even having the eye test) and see what McGrady had to work with offensively. I feel its a bit crazy to blame him when nobody else even played consistently decent enough to take the load off his shoulders. Especially at one point where he accounted for nearly half of the teams points. That's pretty insane...

Plus, that statement in itself is ridiculous about bad shots. ALL great players/shooters take horrific shots. But the difference between them and and a regular player is that they consistently knock down those bad shots.

Curry takes a whole bunch of terrible shots night in and night out but they continuously go in because he's that good. He's a Back-to-back MVP winner and a 2-time NBA champion. So does his game not produce wins?

Kobe Bryant took a WHOLE bunch of bad shots but he has 5 rings. 2 as the man, was his game counter-productive to winning?

Larry Bird would shoot shots over the backboard against two players. But hey, his 3 rings don't matter because he has a "low basketball IQ".

One of the kings of bad shots, Michael Jordan has 6 titles. But naw, his "low basketball IQ" of shot taking stopped him from winning 10.

This is where its a slippery soap. There are loads of great players in NBA history who don't have playoff success. When there are only 3-4 teams a seasons who have a shot a title and a few players that really get to touch that plane. There is no room for any other star to shine BECAUSE those other 25-27 teams who aren't good enough. Statistically there are more all-star/stars/superstars spread out on other teams than there are concentrated on those yearly contenders, so MOST of those great players don't get past the 1st or 2nd round because they happen to run into those teams on a year to year basis.

This is the problem as to why Superstar/star players team up now-a-days via free-agency to form Superteams because fans criticize these guys for not being able to win on their own. Kevin Durant was being questioned for not being able to win a title, so what did he do? He went to an already stacked team to further his personal goal of winning multiple titles. Now people are upset because he left a team where he was unable to win a title and had issues roster building (as they got rid of significant pieces that got them to the finals in the first place the years prior). Either way he was going to get killed but now he has the titles. Same thing that happened with LeBron a few years prior when he was unable to surpass the Celtics and Magic when the Cavs were first seed for multiple seasons, and questioned if LeBron was a winner.

Coaching/Roster Building/Overall talent matter... Having only one Superstar player on an average to below average team guarantees you'll be fighting for a playoff spot every year. But when there are superior rosters/teams than yours in the playoffs, you can only get so far.

All i'm saying is that he indeed had terrible supporting cast, but played on conference where all teams were medicore at best ( nets going to back to back finals is strong enough proof ) in times when most teams had only one star, he should at least win one playoff series. That's it.

When we talk about playoff success for superstars most of times we talk about rings , with T mac you can't even talk about second round. Even when he got allstar teammate in Ming they lost in first round vs Dallas. In 2007 he probably had best supporting cast in his career with Batier, Alston and Ming, yet ,again, he lost in 7 games . His true shooting percentage in that series was 47,8%. It was against Utah.

Don't get me wrong, i kind a like him, as a kid i loved him and Iverson, they were my heros, i hated Kobe with passion , even today i have hate-love feelings about Kobe and his career, that's why i said what i said above about him ( stupidest high IQ player ? ) i just don't think that he did enough to get to HOF basically 2 years after he retired.

I'd argue that he only played 228 regular season games for Orlando as he had clearly quit on the team after that third season. Seriously though, he was blessed with immense talent and cursed with weak determination. His greatness manifested in volume; not efficiency. Anytime he was challenged, he crumbled. Kobe and Michael Curry (seriously) figured that out. Unlike Penny, he didn't make those around him better.

It isn't true that those Orlando rosters were bereft of talent. The problem was that Doc Rivers jettisoned anyone on the team that challenged McGrady's lackadaisical effort. Armstrong, Grant, and Outlaw were shuffled off or released and the team crashed and burned when the onus of leadership was thrust onto McGrady. He was quite open about this when he forced his way out of town. He spoke candidly about not wanting the burden of carrying a team. He craved the adoration, but despised the responsibility.

There are other players in the history of this franchise that are far more deserving of the collective reverence that McGrady receives from our fan base.

pepe1991 wrote:I think that T mac gets away with lot of things he did just based on nostalgia acts.

Guy was ,at best Rudy Gay on the floor who had potential to be Durant before Durant, but never actually delivered when it mattered.

Landscape of the East between 2000 and 2004 was playground for guys like T mac who would trow 24-30 FGA per game, average 30 ,advanced ( or never advance like in his case ) to nba finals ( or even to second round, like in his case ) just to lose to serious teams from West, mostly Spurs and Lakers.

Look at teams who advancd from East : 2001 76ers ( Iverson- Mckie- 35 years old Mutombo- Eric Snow )
2002 ( Kidd- Martin- Van Horn- Kitles -Todd MacCulloch )
2003 Nets again ( Jefferson instad of Horn and Collins instad of Todd ).

Again, those are teams that played in nba finals. In mean time T mac couldn't carry team through first round against :
2001 Bucks
2002 freaking Hornets
2003, Pistons after jumping on 3-1

It's impossible to look at his numbers and turn blind eye on a fact that he never won playoff series in his life until he become third string SF and basically a guy who sits next to POp in the suit with Spurs years after his basketball prime.

His stats are impressive, but 7 times allstar, hall of famer, playing first time in his life second round of playoffs 15 yeras after his rookie season is pretty much laughable . It's awarding individual success over team in team sport. I would prefer rushing Duncan in hoF over getting T Mac ( ever ). What's difference between him and Marbury, Francis, Jermain Onail, Shareef Abdur Rahim or any other 20+ ppg scorer from early 00s? Hell, Baron Davis can make argument for himself, at least he had one of biggest upsets in nba history with Warriors.

MOdern comparison to him is Westbrook last season. Gets 30 FGA, 30% usage rate, goes to vacation in first week of April.

So, have the Magic or one of their players ever done anything well in your eyes? I only ever see complaints from you about our past or present.