Elfrid Payton just doesn't make players better

[MagicMadness]

I like that he's becoming 'end-of-the-season' Elfrid a few months early. That's a very encouraging sign.

[p0peye]

I like that he's becoming 'end-of-the-season' Elfrid a few months early. That's a very encouraging sign.

Coincidentally, Magic are becoming 'end-of-season' Magic a few months early.

[OrlandoDream]

EP now averaging 17.4 and 7.4 in his last 10 games. Shooting well over 50%.

Also, his advanced stats continue to creep up despite a slow start to the season. He's at a 17.5 in PER and 557 in TS% - both of which are career highs and both of which he has improved each year in the league.

But let's continue to bash him based on his hair.

And we are 1-9 in our last 10 games....your point? It doesn't matter if he puts up those individual great stats, and while Im not blaming it all on him, having a PG that screws up your spacing and teams arent forced to guard you at the 3 pt line doesn't hurt just him but every single player on that floor.

I understand to keep a PG like Rondo with the 07-08 Cs when your team is winning and is a contender but when you are a bottom feeder and have the 3rd worse record in the league, continuing with the same approach is insane.

I expect this to be his last year here unless he takes a role off the bench playing 15-18 min a night for cheap.

[MagicMadness]

I like that he's becoming 'end-of-the-season' Elfrid a few months early. That's a very encouraging sign.

Coincidentally, Magic are becoming 'end-of-season' Magic a few months early.

We've got no bench, injuries, and Mario Hezonja in the starting line-up. I'm not putting the blame solely on Elfrid, just like I won't do it to Vucevic, Fournier, or Gordon.

Collectively, this team sucks, but individually, we've got some good parts that can either stay or be used as tradable assets.

With that said, I'd be completely fine with replacing Payton or anyone else on this team, outside of Gordon.

[Xatticus]

EP now averaging 17.4 and 7.4 in his last 10 games. Shooting well over 50%.

Also, his advanced stats continue to creep up despite a slow start to the season. He's at a 17.5 in PER and 557 in TS% - both of which are career highs and both of which he has improved each year in the league.

But let's continue to bash him based on his hair.

And we are 1-9 in our last 10 games....your point? It doesn't matter if he puts up those individual great stats, and while Im not blaming it all on him, having a PG that screws up your spacing and teams arent forced to guard you at the 3 pt line doesn't hurt just him but every single player on that floor.

I understand to keep a PG like Rondo with the 07-08 Cs when your team is winning and is a contender but when you are a bottom feeder and have the 3rd worse record in the league, continuing with the same approach is insane.

I expect this to be his last year here unless he takes a role off the bench playing 15-18 min a night for cheap.

And while I'm not blaming it all on him... I am. All of it. Every single bit of it. We'd be 40-0 and on our way to perfection if that guy could shoot.

[AdamTheGreek]

Just warning you all now, we're in that period of time where Elfrid plays well and then he goes into a February lull, and then he starts racking up March triple-doubles:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/paytoel01/splits/

[Audi]

Just warning you all now, we're in that period of time where Elfrid plays well and then he goes into a February lull, and then he starts racking up March triple-doubles:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/paytoel01/splits/

Wow..I didn't realize his usage drops that much and he takes almost half the attempts in February as he does in Jan and March. Weird.

[Audi]

EP now averaging 17.4 and 7.4 in his last 10 games. Shooting well over 50%.

Also, his advanced stats continue to creep up despite a slow start to the season. He's at a 17.5 in PER and 557 in TS% - both of which are career highs and both of which he has improved each year in the league.

But let's continue to bash him based on his hair.

And we are 1-9 in our last 10 games....your point? It doesn't matter if he puts up those individualgreat stats, and while Im not blaming it all on him, having a PG that screws up your spacing and teams arent forced to guard you at the 3 pt line doesn't hurt just him but every single player on that floor.

I understand to keep a PG like Rondo with the 07-08 Cs when your team is winning and is a contender but when you are a bottom feeder and have the 3rd worse record in the league, continuing with the same approach is insane.

I expect this to be his last year here unless he takes a role off the bench playing 15-18 min a night for cheap.

It sounds like you are saying Payton's individual, statistical performance means nothing unless we are winning? So essentially, he's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't? His stats are either going to be deemed bad or empty so long as the team is bad...and we will call for his scalp regardless..is that correct?

[OrlandoDream]

EP now averaging 17.4 and 7.4 in his last 10 games. Shooting well over 50%.

Also, his advanced stats continue to creep up despite a slow start to the season. He's at a 17.5 in PER and 557 in TS% - both of which are career highs and both of which he has improved each year in the league.

But let's continue to bash him based on his hair.

And we are 1-9 in our last 10 games....your point? It doesn't matter if he puts up those individualgreat stats, and while Im not blaming it all on him, having a PG that screws up your spacing and teams arent forced to guard you at the 3 pt line doesn't hurt just him but every single player on that floor.

I understand to keep a PG like Rondo with the 07-08 Cs when your team is winning and is a contender but when you are a bottom feeder and have the 3rd worse record in the league, continuing with the same approach is insane.

I expect this to be his last year here unless he takes a role off the bench playing 15-18 min a night for cheap.

It sounds like you are saying Payton's individual, statistical performance means nothing unless we are winning? So essentially, he's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't? His stats are either going to be deemed bad or empty so long as the team is bad...and we will call for his scalp regardless..is that correct?

Isnt that the whole point? This season is a loss and the focus should now be to get the highest pick. Fact remains that our hot 8-4 start was done with DJ starting while Payton got injured and only contributed to the home opener. We went 5-1 with DJ starting and when he went down too, that's when it all went to hell.

In our 5-1 stars DJ avg 8.1pts, 5.7ast, while shooting 44FG% and 35 3PT%. Put any nba caliber starting PG who is a 3pt threat that forces his defender to step out, and this team immediately improves. Having a PG like Trae Young with Curry range who is also a willing passer would be a Godsend.

No Im not blaming it all on Payton, but the fact that we were able to have our best stretch of the season without him on the team, tells me he is expandable and not a future piece moving forward.

[SOUL]

And we are 1-9 in our last 10 games....your point? It doesn't matter if he puts up those individualgreat stats, and while Im not blaming it all on him, having a PG that screws up your spacing and teams arent forced to guard you at the 3 pt line doesn't hurt just him but every single player on that floor.

I understand to keep a PG like Rondo with the 07-08 Cs when your team is winning and is a contender but when you are a bottom feeder and have the 3rd worse record in the league, continuing with the same approach is insane.

I expect this to be his last year here unless he takes a role off the bench playing 15-18 min a night for cheap.

It sounds like you are saying Payton's individual, statistical performance means nothing unless we are winning? So essentially, he's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't? His stats are either going to be deemed bad or empty so long as the team is bad...and we will call for his scalp regardless..is that correct?

Isnt that the whole point? This season is a loss and the focus should now be to get the highest pick. Fact remains that our hot 8-4 start was done with DJ starting while Payton got injured and only contributed to the home opener. We went 5-1 with DJ starting and when he went down too, that's when it all went to hell.

In our 5-1 stars DJ avg 8.1pts, 5.7ast, while shooting 44FG% and 35 3PT%. Put any nba caliber starting PG who is a 3pt threat that forces his defender to step out, and this team immediately improves. Having a PG like Trae Young with Curry range who is also a willing passer would be a Godsend.

No Im not blaming it all on Payton, but the fact that we were able to have our best stretch of the season without him on the team, tells me he is expandable and not a future piece moving forward.

Entire team was shooting at a historic pace. And people forget at the end of it we started going back to our old ways and not passing and everybody was clamoring for Elf to be back.

[OrlandoDream]

It sounds like you are saying Payton's individual, statistical performance means nothing unless we are winning? So essentially, he's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't? His stats are either going to be deemed bad or empty so long as the team is bad...and we will call for his scalp regardless..is that correct?

Isnt that the whole point? This season is a loss and the focus should now be to get the highest pick. Fact remains that our hot 8-4 start was done with DJ starting while Payton got injured and only contributed to the home opener. We went 5-1 with DJ starting and when he went down too, that's when it all went to hell.

In our 5-1 stars DJ avg 8.1pts, 5.7ast, while shooting 44FG% and 35 3PT%. Put any nba caliber starting PG who is a 3pt threat that forces his defender to step out, and this team immediately improves. Having a PG like Trae Young with Curry range who is also a willing passer would be a Godsend.

No Im not blaming it all on Payton, but the fact that we were able to have our best stretch of the season without him on the team, tells me he is expandable and not a future piece moving forward.

Entire team was shooting at a historic pace. And people forget at the end of it we started going back to our old ways and not passing and everybody was clamoring for Elf to be back.

The team started losing and then started to revert back to the selfish ways. I know that AG wasnt going to continue shooting 60% from 3Pt land, but losing Ross, AG, and forcing mack to be our starting PG just flipped the whole thing over.

[drsd]

We've got no bench, injuries, and Mario Hezonja in the starting line-up. I'm not putting the blame solely on Elfrid, just like I won't do it to Vucevic, Fournier, or Gordon.

Collectively, this team sucks, but individually, we've got some good parts that can either stay or be used as tradable assets.

With that said, I'd be completely fine with replacing Payton or anyone else on this team, outside of Gordon.

Payton/Augustin/G leaguer
Fournier/league vet/Iwundu
A-1-Ace Mr. Stud/Simmons/league vet
Gordon/Isaac/rookie
Vučević/league vet/Birch

If this is what the 2018/19 roster looked like, I would be very happy. Players would all be individually "better" and there is team-growth in continuity. The above roster puts Fournier in a position to succeed. My problem with the above is I cannot see how this roster comes to be. And if it cannot be, then there is no real alternative than to totally dismantle the roster and "start over."


..

[NBlue]

{snip}

Fact remains that our hot 8-4 start was done with DJ starting while Payton got injured and only contributed to the home opener. We went 5-1 with DJ starting and when he went down too, that's when it all went to hell.

In our 5-1 stars DJ avg 8.1pts, 5.7ast, while shooting 44FG% and 35 3PT%. Put any nba caliber starting PG who is a 3pt threat that forces his defender to step out, and this team immediately improves. Having a PG like Trae Young with Curry range who is also a willing passer would be a Godsend.

No Im not blaming it all on Payton, but the fact that we were able to have our best stretch of the season without him on the team, tells me he is expandable and not a future piece moving forward.

Seriously?

DJ had 2 good games in that stretch -- TWO. 12-10 versus Cleveland and 19-6 against the Nets. Aside from that he scored 7, 0, 6 and 5 points while shooting a combined 6-20 from the floor. DJ also averaged playing only 23 minutes in those 6 games as well.

If you want to criticize EP I think that's fine but at least try to not utilize, um, dreams rather than facts as the basis for your arguments. Our hot start had essentially nothing to do with DJ or EP. I might add that it is theoretically possible that our current slump might well be in spite of EP playing well over the last 10 rather than because of it. That said, hate away...

[yoyojw17]

Reality did set in and we were not going to shoot like that the entire season. But the chemistry and ball movement that we were showing at the beginning of the season all fell apart as injuries plagued the team... and assignments seemed to have shifted. In the shuffle... players reverted back to bad habits or were just plunged into positions they were not equipped for.

[prizm]

Payton's been playing alright... can't blame all these loses solely on him

[PennytoShaq]

{snip}

Fact remains that our hot 8-4 start was done with DJ starting while Payton got injured and only contributed to the home opener. We went 5-1 with DJ starting and when he went down too, that's when it all went to hell.

In our 5-1 stars DJ avg 8.1pts, 5.7ast, while shooting 44FG% and 35 3PT%. Put any nba caliber starting PG who is a 3pt threat that forces his defender to step out, and this team immediately improves. Having a PG like Trae Young with Curry range who is also a willing passer would be a Godsend.

No Im not blaming it all on Payton, but the fact that we were able to have our best stretch of the season without him on the team, tells me he is expandable and not a future piece moving forward.

Seriously?

DJ had 2 good games in that stretch -- TWO. 12-10 versus Cleveland and 19-6 against the Nets. Aside from that he scored 7, 0, 6 and 5 points while shooting a combined 6-20 from the floor. DJ also averaged playing only 23 minutes in those 6 games as well.

If you want to criticize EP I think that's fine but at least try to not utilize, um, dreams rather than facts as the basis for your arguments. Our hot start had essentially nothing to do with DJ or EP. I might add that it is theoretically possible that our current slump might well be in spite of EP playing well over the last 10 rather than because of it. That said, hate away...

I can't agree with this completely. DJ provides so much more spacing for the Magic when he plays the point. The threat of him shooting the 3 is something that must be respected by opponents and it results in easier driving lanes for our guys which creates more ball movement.

Dj himself is not a great PG by any means, but his style of play better suits our offense, and I do believe it factored into our hot start.

The issue with Elf is he was brought in to be a defensive PG. Josh Robbins stated recently that many scouts still observe that he struggles to navigate through screens and does not move well laterally.

Additionally, while Elf's FG% has gone up and so has his 3%, his attempts have gone down. Offenses simply do not see him as a threat to shoot at all. It's apparent by how much time he has when he does take a shot. He is wide open and can probably read a magazine article before the close out comes. This does our offense no favors at all, and in fact hurts it.

Our current slump is not in spite of EP playing well at all. I am quote confident that the Magic will either trade him or let him explore the open market, and then resign him at a bargain price to be our backup PG. Simply put, he is not a starting PG in this league.

[Audi]

Man I swear some of the people on here are crazy.
"Elf sucks in today's NBA, we need an alpha PG scorer!"
*looks at trade suggestions*
"Elf for Reggie Jackson"
"Elf for George Hill"

Gdszvknfscjknfsxhbkbdscjvfdb

[NBlue]

I can't agree with this completely. DJ provides so much more spacing for the Magic when he plays the point. The threat of him shooting the 3 is something that must be respected by opponents and it results in easier driving lanes for our guys which creates more ball movement.

Dj himself is not a great PG by any means, but his style of play better suits our offense, and I do believe it factored into our hot start.

I suppose if you want to live in this fantasy world you can feel free to. Everyone is entitled to your opinion even if the stats demonstrate its not even a little bit true. In his 2 years with the Magic DJ has an overall slightly negative Offensive Box Plus Minus from the offensive end and an overall BPM at an average of -3.3 -- that is flat out awful. His value over replacement player is at .1 on the season. While EP's +/-s aren't exactly blowing anyone away he is at a positive level both last year and this and his VORP is at 1.3 over the last 2 years combined.

Look, if you want to bash EP go ahead - you do it in seemingly every post and I get it that he is basically a rorschach test where you see an evil demon. However, your defense of DJ here is absurd. DJ is a good shooter -- probably a great shooter. But he basically has no other viable NBA skill and kills us in every other manner. The stats do not bear out any suggestion that he makes the team better and watching the games this is abundantly clear.

[PennytoShaq]

I can't agree with this completely. DJ provides so much more spacing for the Magic when he plays the point. The threat of him shooting the 3 is something that must be respected by opponents and it results in easier driving lanes for our guys which creates more ball movement.

Dj himself is not a great PG by any means, but his style of play better suits our offense, and I do believe it factored into our hot start.

I suppose if you want to live in this fantasy world you can feel free to. Everyone is entitled to your opinion even if the stats demonstrate its not even a little bit true. In his 2 years with the Magic DJ has an overall slightly negative Offensive Box Plus Minus from the offensive end and an overall BPM at an average of -3.3 -- that is flat out awful. His value over replacement player is at .1 on the season. While EP's +/-s aren't exactly blowing anyone away he is at a positive level both last year and this and his VORP is at 1.3 over the last 2 years combined.

Look, if you want to bash EP go ahead - you do it in seemingly every post and I get it that he is basically a rorschach test where you see an evil demon. However, your defense of DJ here is absurd. DJ is a good shooter -- probably a great shooter. But he basically has no other viable NBA skill and kills us in every other manner. The stats do not bear out any suggestion that he makes the team better and watching the games this is abundantly clear.

First, if you want to have a disagreement, try to do it in a manner that is not a complete lie about me and not an immediate attacking tone considering I did not add in any verbiage like that towards you.

The lie - I have only just recently gotten on Elf because it has become clear that he is not the future at PG for this team and I am sick of seeing inconsistent defensive effort each game. If you can show me posts from last season where I bash Elf all the time, please do. So your skewed comments there are not only 100% wrong, but not even relevant to this discussion.

Second, you are bring up team based stats like +/-. Not sure why people lean so hard on such a grey stat. Like I have said before, 4/5 of the top in the NBA in +/- are the Warrior,s which illustrates how it is not a measure of individual play at all, but more of a measure of a team's offense.

Heres why - In his 2 years with the Magic, what has DJ been 85% of the time? It's a reserve. He has not played with the starting unit. Think that affects BPM? Of course it does. And then you admit that EP's +/- is not blowing anyone away. Well - yeah. That's the entire point, and his stats are based on playing most of the time with starters that score baskets. Need I remind you that the Magic's wing depth last year equated to one of the worst benches in the league?

Now you admit that DJ is a great shooter. Yes, now you understand what I am saying. The Magic need great shooting from their PG position. I clearly stated that he is "not a great PG by any means" did I not? I also said that his style of play did factor into our hot start. You know the one where we shot at a high %? What factors in to that? Spacing. That is a key component of what spaces an offense at the 1 position. If you don't have a PG that can shoot, you now need to pull your C out to the 3 point line and that takes away from rebounding opportunities.When you do that with a team that is not a great shooting team then thats a lot of missed shots with no offensive rebound.

Does that all make sense? I would hope so. And that is why I said that DJ "fits our style of play better". You took it to a different place that does not really show me that you read my argument at all.

Answer this question - will Elf be our starting PG for the future? Do you not think we will draft or sign a player to initiate offense at the 1? I believe time will show rather quickly that you are going to be wrong about that one.

[Skin]

I can't stand his hair. If he can't see, he can't shoot. Period.

But that's not even my main fuss with him. He can't lead. Exclamation point.