Current rebounding woes

[drsd]

The Magic is currently one of the worst rebounding teams in the league.

The team has an abysmal rebounding differential of -4.7 (tied for co 2nd-from-worst). That rebounding differential fully explains the Magic's scoring differential of -2.9.

What is particularly striking is the abysmal 11.6 offensive rebounds surrendered per game. That is dead last in the league. As the Magic is themselves only gaining 8.1 offensive boards, this differential of -3.5 means the Magic is surrendering a huge volume of put-back opportunities.

If the Magic want to grow to "mediocrity" this is a place to start; keep the opponent off of the Magic's glass ---> get those defensive rebounds!


..

[SOUL]

Yeah, it's a huge issue. And as far as team stats in general go, despite the funk we've gotten into offensively some of these games, most of our problems stem in the defensive and rebounding areas. If we do any of those things even at an average level then we don't go on a 9 game loss streak.

It has to start with Vucevic. I don't care about a bad shooting night if he's rebounding well and getting contested rebounds. Wide open rebounding stats don't impress me, I need to see him consistently winning those battles instead of trying to tip it out or not go up with an urgency. We're lucky we played good defense/OKC missed this last game because they had like 18 more offensive rebounds than us because of our poor rebounding. Gordon is hit or miss with them, but we need him to be steady there as well. But I'd say he's doing his job there. Payton is pretty good on the boards but I'd like to see him around 4.5-5 a game if possible. The biggest issue was we had two wings (Ross/Fournier) that for their size were lowest in the league in rebounding. Gotta put a body on people and go up hard. With Ross potentially out a while, Simmons needs to improve in that area as well. I feel like a guy with his athleticism should be getting more than 2 a game.

[p0peye]

I believe it is a result of having our centers out on perimeter frequently, both on offense (Vuc or Speights spotting up for 3s) and on defense (switching).

Sent from my SM-G935F using RealGM mobile app

[j-ragg]

It’s a result of Vuc just swiping at the ball instead of grabbing it like a man, and Biz being too undersized a lot of the time so he just yelps instead of getting the rebound.

[Catledge]

Agree that Vooch is a big part of the problem, but I also think that playing a SF at the PF position while also playing a SG at the SF position isn't helping either.

[Nemesis21]

Agree that Vooch is a big part of the problem, but I also think that playing a SF at the PF position while also playing a SG at the SF position isn't helping either.

Huh? Can't be talking about AG here, right? He is a PF and grabbed 8 more rebounds than Nikola "Charmin Soft" Vucevic.

[Catledge]

Agree that Vooch is a big part of the problem, but I also think that playing a SF at the PF position while also playing a SG at the SF position isn't helping either.

Huh? Can't be talking about AG here, right? He is a PF and grabbed 8 more rebounds than Nikola "Charmin Soft" Vucevic.

Yep, that's exactly who I'm talking about.

He had a great rebounding game last night but hasn't been very good at rebounding over the course of the season. It's also worth noting that the offensive game Gordon played last night was clearly the game of a perimeter player, not the game of a big. When he is at his best on both ends, his style is much more similar to Paul George's than to Blake Griffin's or Draymond Green's.

I think the only solution available to us (absent a trade) is to start Issac at the other forward spot next to Gordon once Isaac is healthy. I don't care which one you call the 3 and which is the 4. It won't matter much with all the switching, and we need the extra length for both defense and rebounding.

[Nemesis21]

Agree that Vooch is a big part of the problem, but I also think that playing a SF at the PF position while also playing a SG at the SF position isn't helping either.

Huh? Can't be talking about AG here, right? He is a PF and grabbed 8 more rebounds than Nikola "Charmin Soft" Vucevic.

Yep, that's exactly who I'm talking about.

He had a great rebounding game last night but hasn't been very good at rebounding over the course of the season. It's also worth noting that the offensive game Gordon played last night was clearly the game of a perimeter player, not the game of a big. When he is at his best on both ends, his style is much more similar to Paul George's than to Blake Griffin's or Draymond Green's.

I think the only solution available to us (absent a trade) is to start Issac at the other forward spot next to Gordon once Isaac is healthy. I don't care which one you call the 3 and which is the 4. It won't matter much with all the switching, and we need the extra length for both defense and rebounding.

Ummm... do you not remember the disaster of playing AG at SF last year?? He is a PF. PERIOD. He hasn't been very good rebounding over the course of the season?? I don't know what you are watching, but he is averaging just under 9 rebounds a game and is the team leader in that category.

[Catledge]

Huh? Can't be talking about AG here, right? He is a PF and grabbed 8 more rebounds than Nikola "Charmin Soft" Vucevic.

Yep, that's exactly who I'm talking about.

He had a great rebounding game last night but hasn't been very good at rebounding over the course of the season. It's also worth noting that the offensive game Gordon played last night was clearly the game of a perimeter player, not the game of a big. When he is at his best on both ends, his style is much more similar to Paul George's than to Blake Griffin's or Draymond Green's.

I think the only solution available to us (absent a trade) is to start Issac at the other forward spot next to Gordon once Isaac is healthy. I don't care which one you call the 3 and which is the 4. It won't matter much with all the switching, and we need the extra length for both defense and rebounding.

Ummm... do you not remember the disaster of playing AG at SF last year?? He is a PF. PERIOD. He hasn't been very good rebounding over the course of the season?? I don't know what you are watching, but he is averaging just under 9 rebounds a game and is the team leader in that category.

I disagree with that analysis. My analysis with respect to his position goes like this: Last year, he wasn't a very good basketball player, so he would look bad at any position. This year he is a good basketball player, so he will look better at any position.

His rebounding stats right now are skewed because of last night's game and the small sample size this early in the season. If he develops to the point where he can regularly post double doubles, then I'll admit that I'm wrong on this point. Feel free to quote this and call me out if he's averaging 9+ rebs after 60 games.

Obligatory disclaimer: I'm not pooping on Gordon as a player. I think he is our best player and want him to spend his entire career with the Magic. I just am not convinced that he is strictly a PF.

[Nemesis21]

Yep, that's exactly who I'm talking about.

He had a great rebounding game last night but hasn't been very good at rebounding over the course of the season. It's also worth noting that the offensive game Gordon played last night was clearly the game of a perimeter player, not the game of a big. When he is at his best on both ends, his style is much more similar to Paul George's than to Blake Griffin's or Draymond Green's.

I think the only solution available to us (absent a trade) is to start Issac at the other forward spot next to Gordon once Isaac is healthy. I don't care which one you call the 3 and which is the 4. It won't matter much with all the switching, and we need the extra length for both defense and rebounding.

Ummm... do you not remember the disaster of playing AG at SF last year?? He is a PF. PERIOD. He hasn't been very good rebounding over the course of the season?? I don't know what you are watching, but he is averaging just under 9 rebounds a game and is the team leader in that category.

I disagree with that analysis. My analysis with respect to his position goes like this: Last year, he wasn't a very good basketball player, so he would look bad at any position. This year he is a good basketball player, so he will look better at any position.

His rebounding stats right now are skewed because of last night's game and the small sample size this early in the season. If he develops to the point where he can regularly post double doubles, then I'll admit that I'm wrong on this point. Feel free to quote this and call me out if he's averaging 9+ rebs after 60 games.

Obligatory disclaimer: I'm not pooping on Gordon as a player. I think he is our best player and want him to spend his entire career with the Magic. I just am not convinced that he is strictly a PF.

Wrong his rebounding numbers are now skewed because of last night. His rebounding average number for this season, had been just under 9 a game, all season long.

[FFBlitzace]

Isaac would help, kinda. If Ross misses time and Vogel plays Mario, Mario might *gulp* help. He rebounds at a better rate than Ross, Simmons, and Afflalo.

Fournier being pound for pound one of the worst rebounders in the league doesn't help. The only guy on our team who rebounds at a worse rate is Augustin.

[Catledge]

Ummm... do you not remember the disaster of playing AG at SF last year?? He is a PF. PERIOD. He hasn't been very good rebounding over the course of the season?? I don't know what you are watching, but he is averaging just under 9 rebounds a game and is the team leader in that category.

I disagree with that analysis. My analysis with respect to his position goes like this: Last year, he wasn't a very good basketball player, so he would look bad at any position. This year he is a good basketball player, so he will look better at any position.

His rebounding stats right now are skewed because of last night's game and the small sample size this early in the season. If he develops to the point where he can regularly post double doubles, then I'll admit that I'm wrong on this point. Feel free to quote this and call me out if he's averaging 9+ rebs after 60 games.

Obligatory disclaimer: I'm not pooping on Gordon as a player. I think he is our best player and want him to spend his entire career with the Magic. I just am not convinced that he is strictly a PF.

Wrong his rebounding numbers are now skewed because of last night. His rebounding average number for this season, had been just under 9 a game, all season long.

Counting last night's game, he is at 8.1 for the month of November. That is a modest number for a PF on a team with a weak rebounding center that plays at a high pace.

But, like I said, feel free to quote and call me out after 60 games if I'm wrong.

[Blue_and_Whte]

I know the trend is to blame Vuc for everything but the actual problem in terms of rebounding goes a little deeper than that.

On offense everyone is playing on the perimeter.... everyone. Nik averaged around 2.5 OREBs per game last year and that's down to one. He's taking 4 3PTRs per game and even if he's not shooting a 3 on a possession he's still positioned out behind the three point line.

I think an overall lack of effort on the offensive glass is apparent. For example last night everyone's rebounds came on the defensive side. We had 2 offensive rebounds last night 1 for DJ and 1 for Biyombo. Imo that's a lack of effort. If AG can fly in for 15 defensive rebounds then he should show that same effort on the offensive glass. I also think Ross and Simmons are athletic enough to be more effective i that area. I think I'm limited minutes Isaac has shown a knack on the offensive glass.

On the defensive glass again there needs to be more effort across the board but switching imo puts guys out of position to rebound. In addition to that our guards can't stay in front of anyone. When Our center has to come over to contest, guys aren't always helping him out by putting a body on his guy. Again lack of effort.

I personally don't care if a rebound is contested or not. Actually I think that concept is pretty funny. Why would anyone want our defensive rebounds to be more difficult for our guys to grab?

Matter of fact if our team is properly keeping guys out of offensive rebounding position then our defensive rebounding opportunities should be easy or "uncontested". As long as we're rebounding I don't really care.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[NBlue]

Huh? Can't be talking about AG here, right? He is a PF and grabbed 8 more rebounds than Nikola "Charmin Soft" Vucevic.

Yep, that's exactly who I'm talking about.

He had a great rebounding game last night but hasn't been very good at rebounding over the course of the season. It's also worth noting that the offensive game Gordon played last night was clearly the game of a perimeter player, not the game of a big. When he is at his best on both ends, his style is much more similar to Paul George's than to Blake Griffin's or Draymond Green's.

I think the only solution available to us (absent a trade) is to start Issac at the other forward spot next to Gordon once Isaac is healthy. I don't care which one you call the 3 and which is the 4. It won't matter much with all the switching, and we need the extra length for both defense and rebounding.

Ummm... do you not remember the disaster of playing AG at SF last year?? He is a PF. PERIOD. He hasn't been very good rebounding over the course of the season?? I don't know what you are watching, but he is averaging just under 9 rebounds a game and is the team leader in that category.

The fact of the matter is that the roles of a 3-4 can be quite similar - its just how you run your offense. If you have both AG and Isaac in the game at the 3-4 they can certainly switch responsibilities on defense on some matchups. We've seen how effective AG can be in defending the perimeter and he could be used in that role while Isaac guards the 4. I would have to disagree with you that AG is a "very good rebound[er]". He has not been -- he was great last night - but that has been the exception and not the rule. I think sometimes that's due to him wanting to get out and run rather than secure the board -- its not laziness or inability - its just he needs to maintain focus on rebounding as a priority.

[Nemesis21]

Yep, that's exactly who I'm talking about.

He had a great rebounding game last night but hasn't been very good at rebounding over the course of the season. It's also worth noting that the offensive game Gordon played last night was clearly the game of a perimeter player, not the game of a big. When he is at his best on both ends, his style is much more similar to Paul George's than to Blake Griffin's or Draymond Green's.

I think the only solution available to us (absent a trade) is to start Issac at the other forward spot next to Gordon once Isaac is healthy. I don't care which one you call the 3 and which is the 4. It won't matter much with all the switching, and we need the extra length for both defense and rebounding.

Ummm... do you not remember the disaster of playing AG at SF last year?? He is a PF. PERIOD. He hasn't been very good rebounding over the course of the season?? I don't know what you are watching, but he is averaging just under 9 rebounds a game and is the team leader in that category.

The fact of the matter is that the roles of a 3-4 can be quite similar - its just how you run your offense. If you have both AG and Isaac in the game at the 3-4 they can certainly switch responsibilities on defense on some matchups. We've seen how effective AG can be in defending the perimeter and he could be used in that role while Isaac guards the 4. I would have to disagree with you that AG is a "very good rebound[er]". He has not been -- he was great last night - but that has been the exception and not the rule. I think sometimes that's due to him wanting to get out and run rather than secure the board -- its not laziness or inability - its just he needs to maintain focus on rebounding as a priority.

We're not arguing that. And I know AG and Isaac can work together, I've been saying it since we drafted Isaac. If you read it, we are arguing about AG at SF. Which as we all witnessed was a disaster last year. Yes his shooting and offense has improved, but we should put him back at the 3.

[OrlandO]

Huh? Can't be talking about AG here, right? He is a PF and grabbed 8 more rebounds than Nikola "Charmin Soft" Vucevic.

Yep, that's exactly who I'm talking about.

He had a great rebounding game last night but hasn't been very good at rebounding over the course of the season. It's also worth noting that the offensive game Gordon played last night was clearly the game of a perimeter player, not the game of a big. When he is at his best on both ends, his style is much more similar to Paul George's than to Blake Griffin's or Draymond Green's.

I think the only solution available to us (absent a trade) is to start Issac at the other forward spot next to Gordon once Isaac is healthy. I don't care which one you call the 3 and which is the 4. It won't matter much with all the switching, and we need the extra length for both defense and rebounding.

Ummm... do you not remember the disaster of playing AG at SF last year?? He is a PF. PERIOD. He hasn't been very good rebounding over the course of the season?? I don't know what you are watching, but he is averaging just under 9 rebounds a game and is the team leader in that category.

Gordon's been a lot more aggressive on defense recently, but during most of the season his contested rebounding percentage was worse than Vuc and Speights. That can't happen. He's too athletic and motor too high to be down there with the less athletic bigs.

I'm still in the Gordon is at his best at PF camp. Moving him to SF would probably mean more settling for jumpers. Just needs to remember to consistently use his athleticism to take advantage of his matchups at PF.

[Blue_and_Whte]

Ummm... do you not remember the disaster of playing AG at SF last year?? He is a PF. PERIOD. He hasn't been very good rebounding over the course of the season?? I don't know what you are watching, but he is averaging just under 9 rebounds a game and is the team leader in that category.

The fact of the matter is that the roles of a 3-4 can be quite similar - its just how you run your offense. If you have both AG and Isaac in the game at the 3-4 they can certainly switch responsibilities on defense on some matchups. We've seen how effective AG can be in defending the perimeter and he could be used in that role while Isaac guards the 4. I would have to disagree with you that AG is a "very good rebound[er]". He has not been -- he was great last night - but that has been the exception and not the rule. I think sometimes that's due to him wanting to get out and run rather than secure the board -- its not laziness or inability - its just he needs to maintain focus on rebounding as a priority.

We're not arguing that. And I know AG and Isaac can work together, I've been saying it since we drafted Isaac. If you read it, we are arguing about AG at SF. Which as we all witnessed was a disaster last year. Yes his shooting and offense has improved, but we should put him back at the 3.

What does it matter if they're interchangeable anyway? It doesn't matter what position they're officially playing while on the court.

In terms of rebounding people for some reason assign a lower value to "uncontested rebounds" but are we putting AG's efforts on the glass under a microscope as well? How many of his rebounds are "uncontested"? I don't think it matters and I personally don't care how a rebound is secured but you cant label one guy one way and another guy another way if they both benefit from the same type of rebounds. For the record I think AG is a decent rebounder not a very good one. I think he's more of an opportunistic rebounder tbh.

[GameOver25]

I blame some of it on our new switching scheme. But I think it's effort, I barely see guys boxing and just being unaware that the opponent is getting position on them and crashing the glass. I'm sure opponents have a scouting report on us to crash the glass and Vuc is down low and can be easily pushed around.

[YosemiteSam]

Many good points of analysis in this thread, but watching in person last night it was clear that Adams also just straight up repeatedly manhandled Vuc one on one on contested rebounds. What flummoxes me is just like two years ago this guy was always a threat for 20 rebounds per game. What happened? Did he get hurt? Is his expanded offensive role, harder effort on defense, pace etc wearing him out? He is a big dude so a lot of weight to lug around. I agree part of the issue is the ease of penetration but it also just Vuc being bad in one on one rebounding opportunities. I will admit I am always jealous watching Russ rebound with ferocity. I would kill for guards like that.

[BadMofoPimp]

The problem is not the individual rebounders on the team, but players are not boxing out opponents to open up rebounds for their teammates.