The Case Against Frank Vogel

NSB_Magic · Post #1 » by **NSB_Magic** » Sat Dec 9, 2017 9:37 pm

I like Vogel. I like his energy and passion for the game. I think he's a hard working coach who wants to be successful. Also, he comes off as a really genuinely good guy.

However...

He just cant seem to get this team to come together and get wins.

First of all I certainly don't assign much of the blame on Vogel for our general lack of success, he was dealt a very bad hand and is mostly doing the best with what he has to work with. But being objective, I have to point out things that have been bothering me lately and growing my doubts about him.

I believe we do have SOME good players on this team. Vuc and AG are our top quality players but seem to always be struggling for consistency. Elfrid hasn't shown much offensive improvement this year, but what bothers me is his general lack of aggressiveness, EP can score, he might not be able to shoot, but he can still score. EP needs to get to the bucket and score or facilitate. AG needs to be a focal point of the offense where he isn't constantly forcing himself into awkward situations. Vuc needs to get consistent touches to score or dish.

This is rocket science but I feel l watch the same game play out over and over again. I know we don't have the greatest roster. But it just dosn't seem like Vogel is able to get the most out of our players. Also his game management and rotations have been quite frustrating at times.

THOUGHTS?

Post #2 » by **MagicMadness** » Sat Dec 9, 2017 10:04 pm

I don't really think you can put any coach out there right now and win more than 40-50% of these games. We just don't have the overall talent to be much better than that, and adding Simmons to the starting line-up severely depletes an already shaky bench that is missing Issac. Wasting an entire tank season on the Hezonja pick didn't do us any favors, either.

He's not a perfect coach, but his track record leads me to believe he's still a top-half coach in this league.

Post #3 » by **Bensational** » Sat Dec 9, 2017 10:10 pm

Vogel's substitution patterns have been the worst thing about his approach whilst here. If he could only learn to stagger lineups so we've always got a starting caliber player on the court at all times, it would be fine.

But I also think Vogel desperately needs an on court leader/alpha who will set the tone for the rest of the team by playing hard on both ends of the court. I feel like Vuc's softness has been slowly spreading and infecting everyone else on the team over the years. Even AG has become passive on defense at times. We gotta get that bad apple (Vuc) out of here and bring in a competitor.

Think about how Paul George set the tone for the Pacers during Vogel's tenure. That's what we're lacking. Hopefully one of AG, Simmons or Isaac can step up and become that guy.

Post #4 » by **SOUL** » Sat Dec 9, 2017 10:16 pm

He's not the reason we're as bad as we are, but his subs and schemes are also a reason we're not as good as we could be. I know it all comes down to the pieces you have to work with, and maybe they've tried things in practice unsuccessfully, but there just has to be a gameplan for players. It's one thing if we were running great plays and the players just ended up bricking the shot at the end.. it's that we have no real offensive creativity at all and the subs are always the same.

Pacers fans warned us about this, but then boasted about his defensive prowess and how he handles young players. So it's obvious he has some strengths but in the defensive end particularly, there's not much he can do here.

MagicFan4Lyfe · Post #5 » by **MagicFan4Lyfe** » Sat Dec 9, 2017 10:18 pm

While its easy to blame the coach and hope for his firing, the truth is we don't have much starting quality talent on the team. Outside of AG and Isaac and maybe Simmons, who else has strong value? Fournier is a $17m 6th man playing a starters role on a bottom lottery team for last 5 years and Vucevic's poor defense drags his value down drastically.
If we can trade out EP, Fournier and Vuc and rebuild the culture and get new talent, then we can fully assess Vogel.

PennytoShaq · Post #6 » by **PennytoShaq** » Sat Dec 9, 2017 10:20 pm

I don't even see a case against Vogel here, just a vague post expressing displeasure.

I'd like to see the Magic with a SL of new athletic pg who can defend/Simmons/new athletic SF who can defend/AG/Isaac before I really judge too hard.

Just watching Iwundu, a very raw player, I see that he can execute the D scheme and stay in front of his man. Imagine more experienced and skilled guys doing it.

Post #7 » by **Def Swami** » Sat Dec 9, 2017 11:07 pm

The sub patterns are definitely frustrating, and he will never be a wizard on offense. But, this team record reflects its talent level. We're just running in circles by constantly changing coaches with the same core roster and no star player.

JF5 · Post #8 » by **JF5** » Sat Dec 9, 2017 11:12 pm

Not much of a case against Frank... This team is awful and doesn't have much talent to work with...

You know its bad when you are 1-2 injuries away with anyone on the depth chart from completely losing your season.

Right now fans just need to focus on player development of the young guys, next years draft, and the overall continuity this team has lacked since the start of the last rebuild. Frank might not be the best coach but he's the best guy to have right now when it comes to player development and being a players coach (IMO).

I think once his time his up and this team has enough talent you revisit this topic. But this obviously isn't the right time in my opinion...

Post #9 » by **MagicMadness** » Sat Dec 9, 2017 11:36 pm

JF5 wrote:Not much of a case against Frank... This team is awful and doesn't have much talent to work with...

You know its bad when you are 1-2 injuries away with anyone on the depth chart from completely losing your season.

Right now fans just need to focus on player development of the young guys, next years draft, and the overall continuity this team has lacked since the start of the last rebuild. Frank might not be the best coach but he's the best guy to have right now when it comes to player development and being a players coach (IMO).

I think once his time his up and this team has enough talent you revisit this topic. But this obviously isn't the right time in my opinion...

This is a good point. When you've got to rely on the health of guys like Terrence Ross and rookie back-up Issac to stay competitive, it speaks volumes for how little talent and depth you really have compared to the big boys.

Post #10 » by **craig01** » Sat Dec 9, 2017 11:51 pm

My concern with Vogel is that his team does not play hard at times.

Last year saw 20+ games losing by 18 points or more.

The intensity this year is spotty at best.

Yep, there are talent issues, there are leadership issues, and I dont think this team will finish as bad as last year .... but there are ominous signs already.

Guess we will wait and see

thelead · Post #11 » by **thelead** » Sat Dec 9, 2017 11:57 pm

Frank seems like a great guy but his substitution patterns are awful and there aren't many in-game adjustments which is maddening. However, the roster sucks and there are players out there that just don't play winning basketball. If I was the GM, my first move would be figuring out how to trade Vuc for a decent return. I would love to get rid of Biz and move Vuc to the bench but that isn't a likely scenario.

BballIsLife11 · Post #12 » by **BballIsLife11** » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:12 am

Let me start by saying I was extatic when we signed Vogel. With that said.. he is NOT a good coach!!
- does not hold players accountable. Just once can we come out from halftime and bench players who have given zero effort defensively in the first half. Looking at Payton and Vooch.
- substitution patterns are terrible
- does not know what the word adjustment means
- still can't teach a team how to defend the pick and roll
- still continues to start Vooch.. who should not be a starting center in this league. I don't care if Biz's hands are made of butter, we need to set the tone defensively from early.

The sad thing is I feel like I can say this about every coach we have had since Stan.

Patrick1978 · Post #13 » by **Patrick1978** » Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:20 am

I miss skiles

Post #14 » by **Bensational** » Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:13 am

The last 45 seconds of tonight's game seem like a pretty good case against Vogel. Not that I'm trying to put one together.

fklt · Post #15 » by **fklt** » Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:15 am

i think he won in a time when you can win with size, by being a big motivator. league changed from that. making physical guys play physical by whispering positive thoughts was not enough anymore. he came here, tried to turn us into a big team with his influence on biz signing and ibaka trade. it lead to catastrophic results.

so he backed away from playing big. that helped a little. but evidently he still doesn't know what he is doing.

shadrock · Post #16 » by **shadrock** » Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:02 am

We simply dont have enough talent to win. We can fuss over the small details such as the lineup and the coach and the whatever as much as we want, but we simply do not have the talent. We are a .350 team, and thats all there is to it. Getting fussed about the small details is pointless...

NickAnderson · Post #17 » by **NickAnderson** » Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:32 am

It’s the players. AG is our best player and that’s not saying much. I’ll say this again you can’t fire coaches every other season and except some kind of turnaround. We finally have a decent coach during this rebuild. We need to roll with Vogel

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NickAnderson · Post #18 » by **NickAnderson** » Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:34 am

BballIsLife11 wrote:The sad thing is I feel like I can say this about every coach we have had since Stan.

So you’re saying it’s the players !!

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MagicStarwipe · Post #19 » by **MagicStarwipe** » Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:39 am

He's not a good enough coach, but it doesn't matter at this point. I know if we're ever to be a contender again he won't be the coach to get us there.

BballIsLife11 · Post #20 » by **BballIsLife11** » Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:43 am

NickAnderson wrote:
BballIsLife11 wrote:The sad thing is I feel like I can say this about every coach we have had since Stan.

So you’re saying it’s the players !!

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100% the players to blame as well.
With a pg who cannot shoot and center who cannot defend the rim, we are flawed from the get go.
Plus the many other deficiencies our players have