The Vuc realism thread

shadrock · Post #1 » by **shadrock** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:07 am

Ok, so now that we have had a good laugh, lets get back to reality. Here are the actual facts:

1: We have abysmal defense.
2: The most important position when it comes to defense is Center.
3: We have had the same person starting at Center since Dwight left, and that man is Nikola Vucevic.
4: Vuc is known to have abysmal defense.
5: Despite various shufflings of the deck since Dwight left, Vucevic has remained a constant at Center, and throughout this time, the outcomes have been consistently poor.

I could go on, but i think my point is pretty clear. Vucevic has got to go. We have tried this in every possible format. For years the argument was that Vuc just needed a defensive minded PF beside him, if only we could get someone like Serge Ibaka to play beside him it would all be perfect. Then we actually got Serge, and guess what, nothing changed. We have tried running it through him, we have tried it with him shooting threes and spacing, NONE OF IT WORKS. How many more years do we have to spend flogging this dead horse before people realize? The main cog to a good defense is and always will be a defensive minded center, and ours right now is as soft as they come. Despite knowing this, we have somehow tricked ourselves into believing we can build a hard-nosed "gut-it-out" philosophy upon a surface that is crumbly and weak. Its stupidity beyond belief.

Time to move on. No more sugar coating the truth. I would settle for him being put into a bench role, but we know he wont accept that, so he needs to be traded, waived, whatever. I dont care. Just get rid of this guy so we can start the healing process.

Furinkazan · Post #2 » by **Furinkazan** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:15 am

I was always defending Vuc but enough is enough I actually want a purge.

Watch on YouTube

MagicStarwipe · Post #3 » by **MagicStarwipe** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:16 am

Yeah, that thread is just rubbing salt in the wound of everyone thats had to watch this product for 82 games a season for the last few seasons. Please end our misery and get rid of the most overrated player to ever come through this franchise.

Nice guy though.

Furinkazan · Post #4 » by **Furinkazan** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:28 am

Yeah I agree nice guy but its just not working out.Ofc its not only his fault( thats why I want a purge instead of just getting rid of only Vuc)
Leave only Isaac,AG,Simms,(Ross maybe cause he is cheap)Afflalo cause he is a happy cheerleader and Mo cause he wants to be here and is a nice vet.Rest can GTFO.

p0peye · Post #5 » by **p0peye** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:36 am

He's not a game changer and we can deal him any time we want. With that contract and production, he's definitively an asset that can fetch some nice future asset.

With or without him, we are not a playoff team. Defense can hardly be any worse than it is, sure, spacing on offense might suffer, but it will help us get more 'em ping-pong balls next lottery. There's looming Isaac experiment at C, but more interesting might be to try playing AG there, he sure fires a lot of 3s this season and would be in even better position to blow by a C closing out on him.

I'd love to replace him with better talent though and wish we made a deal with Kings for Boogie last season.

pepe1991 · Post #6 » by **pepe1991** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:52 am

He is typical third option on good 6th man on great team type of player.
He is NOT bad player by any mean and he would probably look better on defense if most PFs and PGs he played with were not bad defenders. But because of his age it's easier to replace him than half of a roster and he is not worth building around to being with.

drsd · Post #7 » by **drsd** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:00 am

Vučević is the best player on a team that strives for mediocrity.

..

GameOver25 · Post #8 » by **GameOver25** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:42 pm

Now the real question is which thread will conquer, "The Pro-Vuc Thread" or "The Vuc realism thread"?

OrlChamps2030 · Post #9 » by **OrlChamps2030** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:55 pm

pepe1991 wrote:He is typical third option on good 6th man on great team type of player.
He is NOT bad player by any mean and he would probably look better on defense if most PFs and PGs he played with were not bad defenders. But because of his age it's easier to replace him than half of a roster and he is not worth building around to being with.

Pretty much how I feel. I’ve actually liked his play this season. But he’s at the wrong place at the wrong time. Doesn’t really fit the rebuild timeline and he can contribute on a playoff team.

I think garbage PG play on both ends is what is really hurting this team

Blue_and_Whte · Post #10 » by **Blue_and_Whte** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:22 pm

GameOver25 wrote:Now the real question is which thread will conquer, "The Pro-Vuc Thread" or "The Vuc realism thread"?

but if I post realism in the Vuc realism thread does that count toward this thread or the pro-vuc thread? For example: "The Magic score +1057 points and allow +872 points for a +185 net total points with Vuc on the floor" That would be both Pro-Vuc and Vuc-Realism....Who "wins"?

Xatticus · Post #11 » by **Xatticus** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:49 pm

Blue_and_Whte wrote:
GameOver25 wrote:Now the real question is which thread will conquer, "The Pro-Vuc Thread" or "The Vuc realism thread"?

but if I post realism in the Vuc realism thread does that count toward this thread or the pro-vuc thread? For example: "The Magic score +1057 points and allow +872 points for a +185 net total points with Vuc on the floor" That would be both Pro-Vuc and Vuc-Realism....Who "wins"?

Given that he is +38 on the season it wouldn't really qualify as realism.

He was -140 last season and is -1007 in his Magic career.

MartinsIzAfraud · Post #12 » by **MartinsIzAfraud** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:55 pm

Vuc gets a ton of hate because most people are tired of trying to build a team around him and his refusal to accept a bench role last year. Yes he's expanded his range to the 3 which is nice to see and his defense has looked better some nights. However when it comes to things a C needs to be good at he is poor to awful. Pick and Roll defense is nonexistent, rim protection/just even challenging during layups is not happening. Yeah the offensive stats are nice but its complete fools gold due to the way the roster is set up which is not really his fault but again its been too long to continue with him. Vuc would be a very good bench player but he has the ego of an all star on a lottery team.

At the end of the day he is what he is... a good player who can score but will have you pulling your teeth out when an opposing guard waltzes right past him for an uncontested layup.

Magic need to find offensive minded players specifically from any of the PG/SG/SF position start Biz and bring Vuc off the bench. Biz on the court with actually bucket getters would let Biz focus on getting rebounds/block and then push the ball up court. Vuc with Simmons & EP would actually be a solid 6th 7th 8th man rotation.

PrimeThyme · Post #13 » by **PrimeThyme** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:48 pm

Vuc has never had a problem stuffing the stat sheet, but the reality is he just doesn't contribute to a winning brand of basketball in today's NBA. I wish him and Evan would just pack their bags already so we can get a fresh start.

Last Guardian · Post #14 » by **Last Guardian** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:03 pm

Abysmal is a strong word. He is more mediocre/average defensively and has definitely improved on that end since JV was fired.

Its not about being good or bad. Its all about fit in this league. Only 3-5 players make a team good on their own. Everyone else needs to have the right team around them to win. That is not a knock on any specific player.

I would say that Vuc is on a team with faster, athletic players and he is more of a slow paced half court player. Our team has this identity crisis for a while. The same goes for Fournier too. They are good players, but they don't necessarily fit the rest of the rosters play style. Now, that just means the organization has a choice of which style to adhere to.

Taking past 5 years players/possible rotations into account, to me these rosters make more sense:

TEAM 1
Payton
Dipo/Ross (I know they couldn't be on the same team but for the sake of argument)
Harris
Gordon/Isaac
Dedmon/Biyumbo

OR
TEAM 2
Nelson
Fournier/Afflalo
Harris
Ibaka/Nicholson
Vucevic/O'Quinn

Team 1 has athleticism, everyone wants to run. Dipo/Harris/Gordon provide shooting/scoring. Payton/Dipo are ball-handlers, attacking the paint and passing. Dedmon is protecting the rim. Gordon/Dedmon/Dipo are lob targets.

Team 2 is slower but more skilled. A lot of shooting everywhere. Half court game would be solid with decent post play. Some rim protection.

The team needs to pick a style and stop the identity crisis.

WeAreVenom · Post #15 » by **WeAreVenom** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:24 pm

Last Guardian wrote:Abysmal is a strong word. He is more mediocre/average defensively and has definitely improved on that end since JV was fired.

Its not about being good or bad. Its all about fit in this league. Only 3-5 players make a team good on their own. Everyone else needs to have the right team around them to win. That is not a knock on any specific player.

I would say that Vuc is on a team with faster, athletic players and he is more of a slow paced half court player. Our team has this identity crisis for a while. The same goes for Fournier too. They are good players, but they don't necessarily fit the rest of the rosters play style. Now, that just means the organization has a choice of which style to adhere to.

Taking past 5 years players/possible rotations into account, to me these rosters make more sense:

TEAM 1
Payton
Dipo/Ross (I know they couldn't be on the same team but for the sake of argument)
Harris
Gordon/Isaac
Dedmon/Biyumbo

OR
TEAM 2
Nelson
Fournier/Afflalo
Harris
Ibaka/Nicholson
Vucevic/O'Quinn

Team 1 has athleticism, everyone wants to run. Dipo/Harris/Gordon provide shooting/scoring. Payton/Dipo are ball-handlers, attacking the paint and passing. Dedmon is protecting the rim. Gordon/Dedmon/Dipo are lob targets.

Team 2 is slower but more skilled. A lot of shooting everywhere. Half court game would be solid with decent post play. Some rim protection.

The team needs to pick a style and stop the identity crisis.

Team 1 is at least a 6th or 7th seed in my eyes....

Skin · Post #16 » by **Skin** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:26 pm

Fool's gold.

Optimus_Steel · Post #17 » by **Optimus_Steel** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:31 pm

I am dissapointed, I was expecting a discussion on realism works from the likes of Gustave Courbet, Jean-Francois Millet, Honore Daumier, and lly Repin.

PennytoShaq · Post #18 » by **PennytoShaq** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:00 pm

People post lineup stats and say Vuc is the best defender on the team now. That's how far this place has fallen. He is not the best defender on the team by any stretch. At some point people need to watch film and see how our defense works. Our defense is all about switching. Bizmack has put up some of the best defensive numbers in the league this year in terms of opponent shot % due to the fact that he can switch. Is he amazing or worth of praise at his level of pay? No. But he is a better defender in a switching scheme than Vuc ever could be.

Vuc got crossed up by Dwight freaking Howard. Is there a stat for that? There should be. I would call it the shame stat. I still cringe just thinking of how terrible that was.

The issue for us is that he just does not fit the team. We have all these pieces that don't fit.It sucks because he is a nice dude, but he also has never experienced winning before. We need more guys like Simmons here who know how to combat adversity and win games. That is not what Vuc can do.

This team will continue to struggle without a makeover. I believe a huge part of that will be moving on from Vuc. I also believe his trade value is at an all time high, and we may be able to get a nice piece for him.

Blue_and_Whte · Post #19 » by **Blue_and_Whte** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:29 pm

PrimeShaq wrote:Vuc has never had a problem stuffing the stat sheet, but the reality is he just doesn't contribute to a winning brand of basketball in today's NBA. I wish him and Evan would just pack their bags already so we can get a fresh start.

Which player on this team contributes to a "winning brand of basketball"?

PrimeThyme · Post #20 » by **PrimeThyme** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:42 pm

Blue_and_Whte wrote:
PrimeShaq wrote:Vuc has never had a problem stuffing the stat sheet, but the reality is he just doesn't contribute to a winning brand of basketball in today's NBA. I wish him and Evan would just pack their bags already so we can get a fresh start.

Which player on this team contributes to a "winning brand of basketball"?

Isaac and if AG gets his defense back up to what he's capable of him as well. Everyone else can go and are losers in my book.