STOP MESSING AROUND: GIVE AG HIS MONEY

[Rainwater]

I think my apprehension lies somewhere in between. Yes, by most metrics AG deserves max, even though his play alone doesn’t help us win games for that kind of money.

So in reality you are taking a gamble that the Magic will

1) Find a complimentary player(s) that compliment his game to compete at a high level.
2) Hope that AG has incentive to improve once given the max despite only showing a significant improvement this season.
3) Hope that the FO can make smart enough deals to balance out the money while making us relevant for a deep playoff run.

I would have less apprehension in giving AG a max if the Magic even had a Wall, Beal, etc. That’s also the wizards, a team unable to accomplish anything with an “on paper” roster. Just to use the same team as an example.

So, yes if you believe management is capable of somehow creating a winning roster out of thin air with the current salary situation (and AG maxed)then by all means. I personally don’t think it’s possible situationally. Outside of the Magic, yes AG deserves the max and he will get it handed to him.

I can agree with this.

[pepe1991]

I think my apprehension lies somewhere in between. Yes, by most metrics AG deserves max, even though his play alone doesn’t help us win games for that kind of money.

So in reality you are taking a gamble that the Magic will

1) Find a complimentary player(s) that compliment his game to compete at a high level.
2) Hope that AG has incentive to improve once given the max despite only showing a significant improvement this season.
3) Hope that the FO can make smart enough deals to balance out the money while making us relevant for a deep playoff run.

I would have less apprehension in giving AG a max if the Magic even had a Wall, Beal, etc. That’s also the wizards, a team unable to accomplish anything with an “on paper” roster. Just to use the same team as an example.

So, yes if you believe management is capable of somehow creating a winning roster out of thin air with the current salary situation (and AG maxed) then by all means. I personally don’t think it’s likely given the circumstances. Outside of the Magic, yes AG deserves the max and he will get it handed to him.

I agree . He will make max money, but Magic have $84M in salary without him for next year, so they will hit luxury by being 25 wins team

Two years from now situation won't get much better without big salary dumps, $54M in books without Hezonja, EP,Gordon....
So, first year where Magic can be factor in FA is 2020-21. That's 3 years from now.

I would be less against his max contract if :
a) he shows flashes of ability to carry a team. Somehow we are worst than last year.
b) if Magic have 26-29 years old superstar who needs players around him to compete
c) He plays position where you can actually contribute . PF is complete filler position. Davis is by far best PF in nba and has almost no impact on outcomes of a games.
d) if he is actually anything else but good offensive player. Every other aspect of his game is lackluster. What's difference between him and TJ Warren or Harrison Barnes? 3 ball? 1/2 of all threes he made were uncotested because teams still don't take him serious when it comes to outside shooting.

[MagicMatic]

I think my apprehension lies somewhere in between. Yes, by most metrics AG deserves max, even though his play alone doesn’t help us win games for that kind of money.

So in reality you are taking a gamble that the Magic will

1) Find a complimentary player(s) that compliment his game to compete at a high level.
2) Hope that AG has incentive to improve once given the max despite only showing a significant improvement this season.
3) Hope that the FO can make smart enough deals to balance out the money while making us relevant for a deep playoff run.

I would have less apprehension in giving AG a max if the Magic even had a Wall, Beal, etc. That’s also the wizards, a team unable to accomplish anything with an “on paper” roster. Just to use the same team as an example.

So, yes if you believe management is capable of somehow creating a winning roster out of thin air with the current salary situation (and AG maxed) then by all means. I personally don’t think it’s likely given the circumstances. Outside of the Magic, yes AG deserves the max and he will get it handed to him.

I agree . He will make max money, but Magic have $84M in salary without him for next year, so they will hit luxury by being 25 wins team

Two years from now situation won't get much better without big salary dumps, $54M in books without Hezonja, EP,Gordon....
So, first year where Magic can be factor in FA is 2020-21. That's 3 years from now.

I would be less against his max contract if :
a) he shows flashes of ability to carry a team. Somehow we are worst than last year.
b) if Magic have 26-29 years old superstar who needs players around him to compete
c) He plays position where you can actually contribute . PF is complete filler position. Davis is by far best PF in nba and has almost no impact on outcomes of a games.
d) if he is actually anything else but good offensive player. Every other aspect of his game is lackluster. What's difference between him and TJ Warren or Harrison Barnes? 3 ball? 1/2 of all threes he made were uncotested because teams still don't take him serious when it comes to outside shooting.

It’s always in the best interest of the organization to keep valuable assets. That alone means we should 100% give AG his money. It doesn’t mean we can’t trade him down the road should it not work out, as I suspect it won’t.

Everything you are saying about PF/C is true IMO. Most people don’t agree with it, but that’s just how I see it as well.

AG is only 22, as many posters will retort with any criticism of his game currently, and he has the potential to be better. Most of my concern has to do with building a capable roster and talent acquisition, rather than AG living up to his contract worth. The Magic won’t be the first or last organization to overpay a player.

[Max Power]

I truly believe Gordon deserves a nice pay day, but he’s not a max guy in my opinion yet. I’d rather see him sustain this level of play for 2 years before maxing him out. Plus there is the fact that despite his, Vuc, and Fourniers up in numbers this season, the team is still terrible. I hate being cap strapped and being a lottery resident the next few years. Bad place to be if you ask me.


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[Skybox]

I think he's going to get the star money he deserves...it's quite possible it won't be max as so many teams are becoming a little more fiscally responsible after the cap space boom that led to some irresponsible paydays...I do feel pretty confident in our FO to keep him, but at what the market rate is...without pulling a moronic Shaq-like offense to him and his reps.

[tiderulz]

He plays medicore defense and doesn't make anybody else better. That's 4th option on great team.
On Rocetks he would play behind E.Gordon, Harden , Paul... so 4th option.
Cavs : Lebron, Love , IT... so 4th option
Warriors...bench?
I mean, that's only teams that actually matter in nba. Maybe he would have bigger role with Spurs, behind Leonard and Aldrige.

He really can't carry a team, he can't carry a team against some of the worst teams in nba like Nets, why would you give him money that Giannis or Durant make when he is not on that level ? Because overpaying Otto Porter, Galinari, Parsons, Ibaka, George Hill, Dwight or Crabbe worked so well for other pretenders in past ?

Draymond Green cant carry a team, neither can Klay. Very few players can really carry a team. I havent been the biggest AG supporter, but with the leap he has made in his development this year, and his age, you give him that 4 year max deal and move on to finding more players for the team. A true SF and a PG upgrade would be the next moves imo

Green and klay don't have max contracts. They are making Evan Fournier/BIyombo type money

Klay signed a max contract extension at the time

[Xatticus]

I think my apprehension lies somewhere in between. Yes, by most metrics AG deserves max, even though his play alone doesn’t help us win games for that kind of money.

So in reality you are taking a gamble that the Magic will

1) Find a complimentary player(s) that compliment his game to compete at a high level.
2) Hope that AG has incentive to improve once given the max despite only showing a significant improvement this season.
3) Hope that the FO can make smart enough deals to balance out the money while making us relevant for a deep playoff run.

I would have less apprehension in giving AG a max if the Magic even had a Wall, Beal, etc. That’s also the wizards, a team unable to accomplish anything with an “on paper” roster. Just to use the same team as an example.

So, yes if you believe management is capable of somehow creating a winning roster out of thin air with the current salary situation (and AG maxed) then by all means. I personally don’t think it’s likely given the circumstances. Outside of the Magic, yes AG deserves the max and he will get it handed to him.

I agree . He will make max money, but Magic have $84M in salary without him for next year, so they will hit luxury by being 25 wins team

Two years from now situation won't get much better without big salary dumps, $54M in books without Hezonja, EP,Gordon....
So, first year where Magic can be factor in FA is 2020-21. That's 3 years from now.

I would be less against his max contract if :
a) he shows flashes of ability to carry a team. Somehow we are worst than last year.
b) if Magic have 26-29 years old superstar who needs players around him to compete
c) He plays position where you can actually contribute . PF is complete filler position. Davis is by far best PF in nba and has almost no impact on outcomes of a games.
d) if he is actually anything else but good offensive player. Every other aspect of his game is lackluster. What's difference between him and TJ Warren or Harrison Barnes? 3 ball? 1/2 of all threes he made were uncotested because teams still don't take him serious when it comes to outside shooting.

I wouldn't let other mistakes on the roster dictate our approach to Gordon's next contract. Gordon's play at present doesn't merit a max contract, but the terms of his next contract are going to be reflective of expectations of the player that he will become as opposed to the player that he presently is. This is pretty standard for the second contract of lottery picks in this modern era of one-and-done's.

We can continue to debate his value as it relates to potential contractual obligations ad nauseam, but it's fairly irrelevant. If our front office isn't prepared to offer him a max contract, then they only have a couple other options. They can attempt to trade him before this window closes or they can let his restricted free agency play out. The latter option would likely result in the Magic matching an offer sheet that includes an opt-out clause coupled with a bit of ill will from Gordon's camp. The Magic would retain the asset, but most probably with a two-year ticking clock on his ultimate departure. This is a very poor scenario as you are still paying him at a rate that you initially deemed excessive, but you retain no long-term equity in case the investment comes good. This is why Utah lost Hayward.

This all comes down to how much faith you have in Gordon as an individual. He is exceptionally gifted athletically and he has worked incredibly hard to improve his game since he entered the league. It is a gamble I would be willing to take. I believe there is still a lot of untapped potential and I believe he has the character and work ethic to tap into it.

[npiper17]

I think my apprehension lies somewhere in between. Yes, by most metrics AG deserves max, even though his play alone doesn’t help us win games for that kind of money.

So in reality you are taking a gamble that the Magic will

1) Find a complimentary player(s) that compliment his game to compete at a high level.
2) Hope that AG has incentive to improve once given the max despite only showing a significant improvement this season.
3) Hope that the FO can make smart enough deals to balance out the money while making us relevant for a deep playoff run.

I would have less apprehension in giving AG a max if the Magic even had a Wall, Beal, etc. That’s also the wizards, a team unable to accomplish anything with an “on paper” roster. Just to use the same team as an example.

So, yes if you believe management is capable of somehow creating a winning roster out of thin air with the current salary situation (and AG maxed) then by all means. I personally don’t think it’s likely given the circumstances. Outside of the Magic, yes AG deserves the max and he will get it handed to him.

I agree . He will make max money, but Magic have $84M in salary without him for next year, so they will hit luxury by being 25 wins team

Two years from now situation won't get much better without big salary dumps, $54M in books without Hezonja, EP,Gordon....
So, first year where Magic can be factor in FA is 2020-21. That's 3 years from now.

I would be less against his max contract if :
a) he shows flashes of ability to carry a team. Somehow we are worst than last year.
b) if Magic have 26-29 years old superstar who needs players around him to compete
c) He plays position where you can actually contribute . PF is complete filler position. Davis is by far best PF in nba and has almost no impact on outcomes of a games.
d) if he is actually anything else but good offensive player. Every other aspect of his game is lackluster. What's difference between him and TJ Warren or Harrison Barnes? 3 ball? 1/2 of all threes he made were uncotested because teams still don't take him serious when it comes to outside shooting.

I wouldn't let other mistakes on the roster dictate our approach to Gordon's next contract. Gordon's play at present doesn't merit a max contract, but the terms of his next contract are going to be reflective of expectations of the player that he will become as opposed to the player that he presently is. This is pretty standard for the second contract of lottery picks in this modern era of one-and-done's.

We can continue to debate his value as it relates to potential contractual obligations ad nauseam, but it's fairly irrelevant. If our front office isn't prepared to offer him a max contract, then they only have a couple other options. They can attempt to trade him before this window closes or they can let his restricted free agency play out. The latter option would likely result in the Magic matching an offer sheet that includes an opt-out clause coupled with a bit of ill will from Gordon's camp. The Magic would retain the asset, but most probably with a two-year ticking clock on his ultimate departure. This is a very poor scenario as you are still paying him at a rate that you initially deemed excessive, but you retain no long-term equity in case the investment comes good. This is why Utah lost Hayward.

This all comes down to how much faith you have in Gordon as an individual. He is exceptionally gifted athletically and he has worked incredibly hard to improve his game since he entered the league. It is a gamble I would be willing to take. I believe there is still a lot of untapped potential and I believe he has the character and work ethic to tap into it.

An excellent point and one that is often missed.

Restricted free agency is useful but can also cause issues like resentment and having to deal with poison pill contracts designed to make matching as tricky as possible.

I certainly have no problem with Weltham saying to AG that he needed to prove himself this season and that can be taken as a challenge / positive from both sides but certainly we need to be going into next summer telling teams we’ll match and telling AG he should just resign - similar to the Tobias Harris situation (except this time we don’t trade our asset for a steaming pile of dung that resulted in one of the biggest overpayments in free agency ever).

[gumbyr24]

If we don't bring Gordon back for what ever contract he may demand,
This franchise would be even more (Please Use More Appropriate Word) then I thought possible

[shadrock]

Whats the rush? We have control over him anyway...

[drsd]

Whats the rush? We have control over him anyway...

Indeed!

When I read. "STOP MESSING AROUND: GIVE AG HIS MONEY," all I can think is, wouldn't it be better for the team if Gordon makes 5M less than the max?



//

[PennytoShaq]

I don't even understand this thread or the sentiment in it.

Hammond has already said multiple times that keeping AG here is a priority.

[Skin]

Whats the rush? We have control over him anyway...

That control can be misleading. It doesn't mean we have all control to lock him down no matter what. It means we can match his highest offer. But if he declines offers from teams this offseason because they are less than what he thinks he deserves, then he can simply bet on himself and sign a 1 year deal with us and become an UFA the following year. Greg Monroe and Nerlens Noel have done that recently.

[Skin]

I don't even understand this thread or the sentiment in it.

Hammond has already said multiple times that keeping AG here is a priority.

True, I wasn't under the impression that we needed to be worried about this.

[drsd]

Whats the rush? We have control over him anyway...

Interesting point. If Orlando takes Gordon to RFA, all an opponent can offer him is a mini-Max. Orlando can offer more, so (beyond hurt feelings), why not go this way? It saves something like 8%. That good money to get a key bench player.


..

[BadMofoPimp]

Whats the rush? We have control over him anyway...

That control can be misleading. It doesn't mean we have all control to lock him down no matter what. It means we can match his highest offer. But if he declines offers from teams this offseason because they are less than what he thinks he deserves, then he can simply bet on himself and sign a 1 year deal with us and become an UFA the following year. Greg Monroe and Nerlens Noel have done that recently.

Alot of good that did them. Noel screwed himself and Monroe got less than he anticipated.

[tiderulz]

Whats the rush? We have control over him anyway...

That control can be misleading. It doesn't mean we have all control to lock him down no matter what. It means we can match his highest offer. But if he declines offers from teams this offseason because they are less than what he thinks he deserves, then he can simply bet on himself and sign a 1 year deal with us and become an UFA the following year. Greg Monroe and Nerlens Noel have done that recently.

Alot of good that did them. Noel screwed himself and Monroe got less than he anticipated.

yeah, those arent the best examples to use

[Skin]

That control can be misleading. It doesn't mean we have all control to lock him down no matter what. It means we can match his highest offer. But if he declines offers from teams this offseason because they are less than what he thinks he deserves, then he can simply bet on himself and sign a 1 year deal with us and become an UFA the following year. Greg Monroe and Nerlens Noel have done that recently.

Alot of good that did them. Noel screwed himself and Monroe got less than he anticipated.

yeah, those arent the best examples to use

Doesn't matter. Fact is the team lost their control.

If AG leaves and ends up "getting less than anticipated", I'm still pissed off at the Magic.

But that is just a talking point. I don't believe any of this is happening. AG is gonna get the max just like Otto Porter did.

[Skybox]

Alot of good that did them. Noel screwed himself and Monroe got less than he anticipated.

yeah, those arent the best examples to use

Doesn't matter. Fact is the team lost their control.

If AG leaves and ends up "getting less than anticipated", I'm still pissed off at the Magic.

But that is just a talking point. I don't believe any of this is happening. AG is gonna get the max just like Otto Porter did.

All a function of how reasonable AG and his reps are about the state of NBA- I think Noel is actually an excellent example of a player believing or being told he’s more valuable than he really is...Seems like a great guy and all but you don’t know until the talks really start and feelings get hurt. He’s a great player, may become a superstar...but he’s not one now and he’s still young and I don’t think he gets maxed. I hope it’s all amicable and he should be in the 20 m range, but not necessarily maxed

[Skin]

yeah, those arent the best examples to use

Doesn't matter. Fact is the team lost their control.

If AG leaves and ends up "getting less than anticipated", I'm still pissed off at the Magic.

But that is just a talking point. I don't believe any of this is happening. AG is gonna get the max just like Otto Porter did.

All a function of how reasonable AG and his reps are about the state of NBA- I think Noel is actually an excellent example of a player believing or being told he’s more valuable than he really is...Seems like a great guy and all but you don’t know until the talks really start and feelings get hurt. He’s a great player, may become a superstar...but he’s not one now and he’s still young and I don’t think he gets maxed. I hope it’s all amicable and he should be in the 20 m range, but not necessarily maxed

It's gonna be $25M per year.