Why is it hard to develop players here?

[Skin]

Vote on why you think we struggle to develop players here, then proceed to explain.

You can vote for multiple options. The re-voting option is also enabled in case you wish you change your votes.

[Patrick1978]

It s Vogel

[ZemGOAT]

GMs fault. The talent has to be there to develop. Im not saying the Magic dont have talented players. They just have a poor ability of drafting, trading, and handling players that could have that star to superstar potential. The Oladipo trade was a total disaster. I think Aaron is going to be a star but the talent around him has to be there is they can take advantage of that to make a playoff push.

[Statlanta]

Management fault.

Neither former management nor current management(they will begin to in a minute) has committed to an identity. We have players who play a mismatch of styles. We trade/let go of our young players(Harkless, O'Quinn, Tobias, Dedmon, Dipo) before we let the team decide the identity. We get rid of coaches(Vaughn, Borrego, Skiles) before we let the coach decide the identity. We need consistency. We need something we can bank on for at least a good 5-6 years before we scrap it in order to chart growth.

Even right now we can't even say we are committed to AG or Mario or even Vogel.

To have a proper chart to measure franchise development we need controlled variables.


In a ending note I'll admit that former management not being fully committed has allowed us not to be too anchored(only Biyombo as a true bad contract, only Evan as a true LONG contract) into our mistakes. We are not the 2013-2014 Nets.

[Nemesis21]

It s Vogel

Umm except we haven't developed any players since SVG.....

[Nemesis21]

Management fault.

Neither former management nor current management(they will begin to in a minute) has committed to an identity. We have players who play a mismatch of styles. We trade/let go of our young players(Harkless, O'Quinn, Tobias, Dedmon, Dipo) before we let the team decide the identity. We get rid of coaches(Vaughn, Borrego, Skiles) before we let the coach decide the identity. We need consistency. We need something we can bank on for at least a good 5-6 years before we scrap it in order to chart growth.

Even right now we can't even say we are committed to AG or Mario or even Vogel.

To have a proper chart to measure franchise development we need controlled variables.


In a ending note I'll admit that former management not being fully committed has allowed us not to be too anchored(only Biyombo as a true bad contract, only Evan as a true LONG contract) into our mistakes. We are not the 2013-2014 Nets.

Pretty much spot on

[the_hobo]

The magic have a history of success (making the playoffs) with a big and physical center surrounded by shooters. Worked with Shaq, worked with Dwight. Our franchise is now a broken mirror image of other teams who are having success. If the magic want to win again, we need to go back to our roots - dont play their game, play OUR game. I point the finger at GMs drafting "potential" but of course i mostly point at coaches who can't tap into that potential.

What i want to see from Magic in the next few years is drafting Tacko, make him hit the gym, and glue him to the paint. Then surround him with shooters.

[Versubio]

The magic have a history of success (making the playoffs) with a big and physical center surrounded by shooters. Worked with Shaq, worked with Dwight. Our franchise is now a broken mirror image of other teams who are having success. If the magic want to win again, we need to go back to our roots - dont play their game, play OUR game. I point the finger at GMs drafting "potential" but of course i mostly point at coaches who can't tap into that potential.

What i want to see from Magic in the next few years is drafting Tacko, make him hit the gym, and glue him to the paint. Then surround him with shooters.

Tacko Fall franchise center?

[axl_c_cool]

Culture, we have/had a bad culture top to bottom, locker room, selfish players, selfish coaches, bad front office, no vision or long term plan, until that changes we'll struggle.

[Xatticus]

I voted for coach, GM, and other.

I simply don't believe we have a coach that appreciates the strengths and qualities of the individual talents on the roster. Everyone has strengths and weakness and it should be the coach's job to help each and every player improve with these in consideration. Vogel strikes me as a simpleton that has a clear and rigid vision of what a productive basketball player looks like and what they should do on a basketball court. I believe he is a cookie-cutter relic of a previous era that is rapidly getting left behind by the revolution that analytics has brought about.

I don't want to sound too rough on Vogel though as I don't think he is really any different from any of the previous coaches we have had in this franchise's history. There is a new breed of coaches out there now though that are capable of taking any type of player and finding a way to get value out of them.

I fault our GMs for acquiring young players and then not having the patience to see their development through. It seems silly to me to emphasize things like length and athleticism in prospects, only to seemingly forsake these preferences when it comes time to actually commit money. We draft intriguing talents, but then we get cold feet when their rookie-scale deals come to an end and jettison those players instead.

When you look at how our money is currently being spent, it is being thrown at players that lack the raw tools necessary to excel in this league. Hennigan and our new management team have both spent money on marginally talented veterans every summer to fill empty roster slots. If you are pragmatic about your situation, then you shouldn't even bother to sign these types of players. We have drafted talent, but then we have filled out our rosters with veterans in the hopes that maybe the combination strikes lightning and finds a way into the playoffs. If you give rigid-thinkers like Skiles or Vogel crutches like Jeff Green and Jason Smith to lean on, they will use them at the expense of the youth.

I think that collectively we have been unrealistic in our expectations. It's as if everyone on this board is oblivious to the growing pains that most of the talents in this league have gone through on their paths to stardom. We speak in absolutes about the abilities of players when they are far too young to be considered finished products. We gripe incessantly and irrationally about any on-court flaws for players that we have a personal disdain for. Much of this is a product of the factions that arise from personal biases or preferences. After a player goes on to find success elsewhere, we rationalize away our own short-sightedness.

For me... it's pretty simple. If you suck (which we do), then you have to have reasons to believe you are getting better. This means acquiring talent by whatever means possible. We have fifteen roster spots and every one of them should be occupied by players whose talent and personalities you believe in and whose careers are on an upward trajectory. You don't bother with things like fit. You don't worry about wins and losses. You keep acquiring talent and you keep developing it until winning happens.

I am constantly dumbfounded by the number of individuals around here that believe we are an "alpha" away from competitiveness or that we just lack enough of a particular attribute like 3-point shooting. We bitch about every talented young player on this team and celebrate their departures. We apologize and excuse the shortcomings of those that don't have talent. If you look at our roster, it's shocking how little young talent we have on our roster considering what we have been through over the last five years.

[Last Guardian]

Its such a simple process...play them a lot of minutes, and play them with other young players. Teach them and watch them grow. Instead...we like playing Aaron Afflalo, Glen Davis, Willie Green, Ben Gordon, Jason Smith, Jeff Green, Mo Speights, etc. Coaching and the rotations have killed us for 5 years.

Its not rocket science to play your 5th pick in a lost cause season. But lets wait until everyone is injured to give him a real chance. Or hey we have a strong, athletic rookie (I know hes an old rookie lol) C who led the league in shotblocking in preseason...lets wait until Vuc is injured and Mo speights has a personal issue to give him ANY meaningful minutes.

It is a sad franchise that has no idea how to prepare for the future. And what is infuriating is that...we still lose. What the hell is the point in playing these vets when we still lose? We don't develop anyone and we miss the playoffs. At the very least make the losses worth something.

I hate to say it, but this has the making of a Clippers/Mavs/Warriors/Kings long time playoff absence.

[MartinsIzAfraud]

Management fault.

Neither former management nor current management(they will begin to in a minute) has committed to an identity. We have players who play a mismatch of styles. We trade/let go of our young players(Harkless, O'Quinn, Tobias, Dedmon, Dipo) before we let the team decide the identity. We get rid of coaches(Vaughn, Borrego, Skiles) before we let the coach decide the identity. We need consistency. We need something we can bank on for at least a good 5-6 years before we scrap it in order to chart growth.

Even right now we can't even say we are committed to AG or Mario or even Vogel.

To have a proper chart to measure franchise development we need controlled variables.


In a ending note I'll admit that former management not being fully committed has allowed us not to be too anchored(only Biyombo as a true bad contract, only Evan as a true LONG contract) into our mistakes. We are not the 2013-2014 Nets.

thread's over go home he nailed it. +1

[woosah]

I voted for coach, GM, and other.

I simply don't believe we have a coach that appreciates the strengths and qualities of the individual talents on the roster. Everyone has strengths and weakness and it should be the coach's job to help each and every player improve with these in consideration. Vogel strikes me as a simpleton that has a clear and rigid vision of what a productive basketball player looks like and what they should do on a basketball court. I believe he is a cookie-cutter relic of a previous era that is rapidly getting left behind by the revolution that analytics has brought about.

I don't want to sound too rough on Vogel though as I don't think he is really any different from any of the previous coaches we have had in this franchise's history. There is a new breed of coaches out there now though that are capable of taking any type of player and finding a way to get value out of them.

I fault our GMs for acquiring young players and then not having the patience to see their development through. It seems silly to me to emphasize things like length and athleticism in prospects, only to seemingly forsake these preferences when it comes time to actually commit money. We draft intriguing talents, but then we get cold feet when their rookie-scale deals come to an end and jettison those players instead.

When you look at how our money is currently being spent, it is being thrown at players that lack the raw tools necessary to excel in this league. Hennigan and our new management team have both spent money on marginally talented veterans every summer to fill empty roster slots. If you are pragmatic about your situation, then you shouldn't even bother to sign these types of players. We have drafted talent, but then we have filled out our rosters with veterans in the hopes that maybe the combination strikes lightning and finds a way into the playoffs. If you give rigid-thinkers like Skiles or Vogel crutches like Jeff Green and Jason Smith to lean on, they will use them at the expense of the youth.

I think that collectively we have been unrealistic in our expectations. It's as if everyone on this board is oblivious to the growing pains that most of the talents in this league have gone through on their paths to stardom. We speak in absolutes about the abilities of players when they are far too young to be considered finished products. We gripe incessantly and irrationally about any on-court flaws for players that we have a personal disdain for. Much of this is a product of the factions that arise from personal biases or preferences. After a player goes on to find success elsewhere, we rationalize away our own short-sightedness.

For me... it's pretty simple. If you suck (which we do), then you have to have reasons to believe you are getting better. This means acquiring talent by whatever means possible. We have fifteen roster spots and every one of them should be occupied by players whose talent and personalities you believe in and whose careers are on an upward trajectory. You don't bother with things like fit. You don't worry about wins and losses. You keep acquiring talent and you keep developing it until winning happens.

I am constantly dumbfounded by the number of individuals around here that believe we are an "alpha" away from competitiveness or that we just lack enough of a particular attribute like 3-point shooting. We bitch about every talented young player on this team and celebrate their departures. We apologize and excuse the shortcomings of those that don't have talent. If you look at our roster, it's shocking how little young talent we have on our roster considering what we have been through over the last five years.

simpleton?

sobering, but NO lies told.

[Catledge]

I think there are two big problems:

1) We have drafted/acquired lots of bad young players: Harkless, KOQ, Payton, Daquan Jones, Nicholson. Those guys got massive amounts of playing time even though they were clearly not ready for it and in most cases never will be.

2) Contrary to popular belief, we have actually tried to develop too many young players at the same time. An NBA rotation can only really handle one or two young players at a time, maybe three if they are all high-IQ guys. Any more than that and you get teams that turn the ball over and can't play defense. The idea that we were going to be able to trot out a rotation of Payton, Dipo, Fournier, Harris, Vooch, Hark, Gordon, and KOQ and not get a catastrophic mess was always absurd. We should have picked three of those guys to give minutes to and surrounded them with vets. The rest should have been given seats on the bench or never acquired in the first place.

[VFX]

Management fault.

Neither former management nor current management(they will begin to in a minute) has committed to an identity. We have players who play a mismatch of styles. We trade/let go of our young players(Harkless, O'Quinn, Tobias, Dedmon, Dipo) before we let the team decide the identity. We get rid of coaches(Vaughn, Borrego, Skiles) before we let the coach decide the identity. We need consistency. We need something we can bank on for at least a good 5-6 years before we scrap it in order to chart growth.

Even right now we can't even say we are committed to AG or Mario or even Vogel.

To have a proper chart to measure franchise development we need controlled variables.


In a ending note I'll admit that former management not being fully committed has allowed us not to be too anchored(only Biyombo as a true bad contract, only Evan as a true LONG contract) into our mistakes. We are not the 2013-2014 Nets.

This.

I’ll add to this by saying that management tried to “balance out” the roster to hide players deficiencies. This has caused a wholesale lack of identity.

I’m trying to remain hopeful that WeHam have a clue as to what it is they are trying to build here. The draft will be the biggest indicator of that, and what they decide to do with the rest of the roster.

[bargnanimvp]

I think there are two big problems:

1) We have drafted/acquired lots of bad young players: Harkless, KOQ, Payton, Daquan Jones, Nicholson. Those guys got massive amounts of playing time even though they were clearly not ready for it and in most cases never will be.

2) Contrary to popular belief, we have actually tried to develop too many young players at the same time. An NBA rotation can only really handle one or two young players at a time, maybe three if they are all high-IQ guys. Any more than that and you get teams that turn the ball over and can't play defense. The idea that we were going to be able to trot out a rotation of Payton, Dipo, Fournier, Harris, Vooch, Hark, Gordon, and KOQ and not get a catastrophic mess was always absurd. We should have picked three of those guys to give minutes to and surrounded them with vets. The rest should have been given seats on the bench or never acquired in the first place.

Think the second point gets overlooked, most teams have young guys surrounded by well balanced NBA rotation guys who can help cover a young guys weaknesses and allow them to develop their game, we had a mess fit wise. We had a bunch of young guys who all had questions around defence and shooting, with payton and dipo and harris we had 3 guys who all like having the ball, with our bigs (minus dedmon who was older) we had vuc and nicholson who were both unathletic.

I still think we actually did well with the guys we drafted, we took pretty much or close to what i believe was the best available player at each spot (at the time, not with hindsight so don't bring up guys who unexpectedly became stars taken later) we just happened to miss out on the real top prospects by a spot or two. The problem we had though was the bpa approach ended up giving us a roster that had zero direction and no complimenting players, we would have been better off locking into a couple of our young guys then moving pieces to get guys who actually compliment those players to help develop them, when we went for vets we got vets that didn't do that or guys who would be taking minutes and opportunities away from our young guys instead of guys who would run with them as side men and let our young guys develop

What pisses me off the most is that the fit issue had been around for years, go back on magic boards (i didn't post here back then) and you have people complaining about it way back. It was clear our youth would need a shake up but rather than lock in and make a bold pick on who our best prospects were we left guys on the team too long which just lowered their value then worse still traded them off one by one in small deals instead of making a package and getting some real value, imagine if we moved guys like harris, dipo, dedmon, o'quinn, sabonis pick all at once

[TreasureCoast]

I chose Other.....

It's the culture of the organization.

[drsd]

It's the culture of the organization.

I had the two player options because of this defense line. For me the Magic has a good group of players that have no idea how to win games. It does start at the PG, and thus Payton had to go, but watching Augustin brick jump balls is not going to help the Magic. Drafing a PG will make the Magic awful for a coupe years.

Breaking this cycle falls on Coach Vogel. He has a lot of work to do in the off season and in the pre-season camp to teach "Winning."


..

[pepe1991]

Lack of directon, or having patience to see direction go all the way through.
2 years into tanking and they thought they are playoff team, hurted Hezonja's playing time, traded Harris, year later traded Oladipo and pick.

It doesn't matter how much vets you have if they are right vets and they don't eat PT and usage from young kids. But that was not case with Magic. Jeff Green , Meeks and others were not there to help youth but to compete and push youth away from rotation ( case and point- Hezonja ).

All coaches during Magic rebuild era, after SVG were horrendus and non of them will ever coach again. That's says a lot about decisions made about them,when they were hired.

[MrTwister]

Lack of directon, or having patience to see direction go all the way through.
2 years into tanking and they thought they are playoff team, hurted Hezonja's playing time, traded Harris, year later traded Oladipo and pick.

It doesn't matter how much vets you have if they are right vets and they don't eat PT and usage from young kids. But that was not case with Magic. Jeff Green , Meeks and others were not there to help youth but to compete and push youth away from rotation ( case and point- Hezonja ).

All coaches during Magic rebuild era, after SVG were horrendus and non of them will ever coach again. That's says a lot about decisions made about them,when they were hired.

Thats not true, only guy who survived all the coaching changes in rebuilding period is Magic development coach Jay Hernandez.Think he even got promoted last year as head of development or something.