AG is going to become the next Dipo

[PrimeThyme]

I've got a bad hunch that AG is going to be the next Dipo for us. One thing I agree with that recent Lowe article about is how puzzling it is that we don't play to AG's strengths on offense. A guy that has finished as well as he has throughout his career cutting to the basket should be involved in way more pick and roll attempts. We rarely find him on cuts to the basket and have instead let him fall in love with his jumper like he has. He's picked up bad habits here mostly due to Vogel's lack of an offensive scheme and the selfish culture that we have. I strongly feel that a more stable organization will be able to correct those things.

With as many people wanting to move on from AG as they are it reminds me of Dipos final year here. I can't remember how many countless trade scenarios I saw people proposing. People said that we had to choose one or the other of Evan or Dipo because we couldn't pay both or they couldn't play together long term and many choose to move on from Dipo due the price he would cost in restricted free agency (eerily similar to the Isaac/Gordon dilemma we have now). Everyone wanted to include him in a package on draft night for Butler. When the reality is trades never work out that way. You generally end up getting less value in return like we did, when if we had put a better roster and consistent coaching staff around Dipo in the first place we would have had a player pretty damn close to Butler to begin with. He and Evan could have worked together and we would have been much better off paying both of them and moved on from some of the other players causing the culture issues rather than dumping Dipo. I think we would be better off developing Gordon and Isaac at the 4/5 and looking for the playmaking and point guard play in the upcoming drafts instead of sign and trading AG for one even though others disagree.

Anyways, I fear that I will once again be watching a young player we gave up on thrive on his next team. A much more competent organization like Utah will get him and play to his strengths on offense and will have an all-star on their hands. It just too bad our organization is as incompetent as they are. I seriously hope that I am wrong but I'm doubtful that I will be.

[VFX]

Letting him walk isn’t a real option.

Also, if AG were traded to another team, and began to thrive, it would be because of the coaching and roster around him and not because he randomly developed into a superstar out of thin air.

[rusoopE]

Magic is going to resign him no matter how much he will ask for his next contract and i really cant tell how woulda improve . But i see your point and its appreciated. Hopefully you are wrong aswell lol i want AG to prove me he can be the team's face

Sent from my [device_name] using [url]RealGM mobile app[/url]

[axl_c_cool]

If we let him walk it’s a tragedy for this organisation and it would be hard to have any belief in the front office or organisation. It wouldn’t just be losing Gordon it would be that he’s on a list of players, like Oladipo, who we miss managed and didn’t develop.

I genuinely think I’d be done with the Magic for this reason or at least until there was a sign of actual development and hope. I already want us to lose and tank and get annoyed when we win, which is tragic in itself.

This summer we have to resign Gordon, need to resign Hezonja, and want to draft a franchise player. If those 3 things happen the next 5 years will be fun, otherwise more of the same or worse, a treadmill team


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[p0peye]

Gordon's getting whatever price it takes, depending on whether he accepts 20M/year or signs max offer sheet and we match. Im hoping for first option to happen, for in latter case, he better prove to be worth it, otherwise we got another long contract eating up our cap space.

There is zero chance we let him walk or trade him this offseason.

[JF5]

I've got a bad hunch that AG is going to be the next Dipo for us. One thing I agree with that recent Lowe article about is how puzzling it is that we don't play to AG's strengths on offense. A guy that has finished as well as he has throughout his career cutting to the basket should be involved in way more pick and roll attempts. We rarely find him on cuts to the basket and have instead let him fall in love with his jumper like he has. He's picked up bad habits here mostly due to Vogel's lack of an offensive scheme and the selfish culture that we have. I strongly feel that a more stable organization will be able to correct those things.

With as many people wanting to move on from AG as they are it reminds me of Dipos final year here. I can't remember how many countless trade scenarios I saw people proposing. People said that we had to choose one or the other of Evan or Dipo because we couldn't pay both or they couldn't play together long term and many choose to move on from Dipo due the price he would cost in restricted free agency (eerily similar to the Isaac/Gordon dilemma we have now). Everyone wanted to include him in a package on draft night for Butler. When the reality is trades never work out that way. You generally end up getting less value in return like we did, when if we had put a better roster and consistent coaching staff around Dipo in the first place we would have had a player pretty damn close to Butler to begin with. He and Evan could have worked together and we would have been much better off paying both of them and moved on from some of the other players causing the culture issues rather than dumping Dipo. I think we would be better off developing Gordon and Isaac at the 4/5 and looking for the playmaking and point guard play in the upcoming drafts instead of sign and trading AG for one even though others disagree.

Anyways, I fear that I will once again be watching a young player we gave up on thrive on his next team. A much more competent organization like Utah will get him and play to his strengths on offense and will have an all-star on their hands. It just too bad our organization is as incompetent as they are. I seriously hope that I am wrong but I'm doubtful that I will be.

He's not going to be the next Victor Oladipo... He doesn't have any skill-set to prove otherwise after 4 seasons... On the other hand his ceiling is that of an all-star caliber player (Though I don't believe he'll reach that either).

For me he's no Oladipo because at least Vic was a sound all-around player that did everything for his team. Gordon just doesn't have that versatility. So I don't have as much fear in seeing Gordon go as I only see him being a Tobias Harris type player at best. A tweener who can compliment another Star tweener in order to be completely effective/start-able.

What you've written is essentially the problem with Gordon defenders. You see him as a player that hasn't materialized in any way since he's been here. He can't create for himself, can't shoot/score consistently, can't play-make. This is not adding the fact that his body/defensive capabilities are much more plausible/fit for a 3 rather than a 4 though his best fit is a small ball PF. His strengths are that of a guy who should be playing off the ball as much as possible (Ala a 4th or 5th option). As a matter of fact his biggest games like you've said have had him just spotting up/cutting to basket/ the playing off the ball.

Watching him play for the last few years getting the opportunities from both Small Forward/Power Forward position his trajectory has more of a defined role. Blaming the organization for not putting him in the role to succeed is fair. But that's not putting in perspective that AG might not be the player that you guys have pegged him to be. He's had his chances...

I do agree though that he'd most likely be better on another team with more talent like the Sixers where he'd thrive as a 4th option. But on this team you're forcing him to something that he's not.

[VFX]

I've got a bad hunch that AG is going to be the next Dipo for us. One thing I agree with that recent Lowe article about is how puzzling it is that we don't play to AG's strengths on offense. A guy that has finished as well as he has throughout his career cutting to the basket should be involved in way more pick and roll attempts. We rarely find him on cuts to the basket and have instead let him fall in love with his jumper like he has. He's picked up bad habits here mostly due to Vogel's lack of an offensive scheme and the selfish culture that we have. I strongly feel that a more stable organization will be able to correct those things.

With as many people wanting to move on from AG as they are it reminds me of Dipos final year here. I can't remember how many countless trade scenarios I saw people proposing. People said that we had to choose one or the other of Evan or Dipo because we couldn't pay both or they couldn't play together long term and many choose to move on from Dipo due the price he would cost in restricted free agency (eerily similar to the Isaac/Gordon dilemma we have now). Everyone wanted to include him in a package on draft night for Butler. When the reality is trades never work out that way. You generally end up getting less value in return like we did, when if we had put a better roster and consistent coaching staff around Dipo in the first place we would have had a player pretty damn close to Butler to begin with. He and Evan could have worked together and we would have been much better off paying both of them and moved on from some of the other players causing the culture issues rather than dumping Dipo. I think we would be better off developing Gordon and Isaac at the 4/5 and looking for the playmaking and point guard play in the upcoming drafts instead of sign and trading AG for one even though others disagree.

Anyways, I fear that I will once again be watching a young player we gave up on thrive on his next team. A much more competent organization like Utah will get him and play to his strengths on offense and will have an all-star on their hands. It just too bad our organization is as incompetent as they are. I seriously hope that I am wrong but I'm doubtful that I will be.

The question becomes - “ can a third option on an expensive contract be more useful in building an effective roster as a trade piece, or as a contributor on this current squad?”

I don’t see him bringing more value to us on the court than traded when this roster has been inherently flawed for years and still doesn’t have a marquee player. Moreover, AG isn’t the player type to carry a team like Oladipo.

[PrimeThyme]

I've got a bad hunch that AG is going to be the next Dipo for us. One thing I agree with that recent Lowe article about is how puzzling it is that we don't play to AG's strengths on offense. A guy that has finished as well as he has throughout his career cutting to the basket should be involved in way more pick and roll attempts. We rarely find him on cuts to the basket and have instead let him fall in love with his jumper like he has. He's picked up bad habits here mostly due to Vogel's lack of an offensive scheme and the selfish culture that we have. I strongly feel that a more stable organization will be able to correct those things.

With as many people wanting to move on from AG as they are it reminds me of Dipos final year here. I can't remember how many countless trade scenarios I saw people proposing. People said that we had to choose one or the other of Evan or Dipo because we couldn't pay both or they couldn't play together long term and many choose to move on from Dipo due the price he would cost in restricted free agency (eerily similar to the Isaac/Gordon dilemma we have now). Everyone wanted to include him in a package on draft night for Butler. When the reality is trades never work out that way. You generally end up getting less value in return like we did, when if we had put a better roster and consistent coaching staff around Dipo in the first place we would have had a player pretty damn close to Butler to begin with. He and Evan could have worked together and we would have been much better off paying both of them and moved on from some of the other players causing the culture issues rather than dumping Dipo. I think we would be better off developing Gordon and Isaac at the 4/5 and looking for the playmaking and point guard play in the upcoming drafts instead of sign and trading AG for one even though others disagree.

Anyways, I fear that I will once again be watching a young player we gave up on thrive on his next team. A much more competent organization like Utah will get him and play to his strengths on offense and will have an all-star on their hands. It just too bad our organization is as incompetent as they are. I seriously hope that I am wrong but I'm doubtful that I will be.

He's not going to be the next Victor Oladipo... He doesn't have any skill-set to prove otherwise after 4 seasons... On the other hand his ceiling is that of an all-star caliber player (Though I don't believe he'll reach that either).

For me he's no Oladipo because at least Vic was a sound all-around player that did everything for his team. Gordon just doesn't have that versatility. So I don't have as much fear in seeing Gordon go as I only see him being a Tobias Harris type player at best. A tweener who can compliment another Star tweener in order to be completely effective/start-able.

What you've written is essentially the problem with Gordon defenders. You see him as a player that hasn't materialized in any way since he's been here. He can't create for himself, can't shoot/score consistently, can't play-make. This is not adding the fact that his body/defensive capabilities are much more plausible/fit for a 3 rather than a 4 though his best fit is a small ball PF. His strengths are that of a guy who should be playing off the ball as much as possible (Ala a 4th or 5th option). As a matter of fact his biggest games like you've said have had him just spotting up/cutting to basket/ the playing off the ball.

Watching him play for the last few years getting the opportunities from both Small Forward/Power Forward position his trajectory has more of a defined role. Blaming the organization for not putting him in the role to succeed is fair. But that's not putting in perspective that AG might not be the player that you guys have pegged him to be. He's had his chances...

I do agree though that he'd most likely be better on another team with more talent like the Sixers where he'd thrive as a 4th option. But on this team you're forcing him to something that he's not.

What you've written is essentially the problem with Gordon defenders. You see him as a player that hasn't materialized in any way since he's been here. He can't create for himself, can't shoot/score consistently, can't play-make. This is not adding the fact that his body/defensive capabilities are much more plausible/fit for a 3 rather than a 4 though his best fit is a small ball PF. His strengths are that of a guy who should be playing off the ball as much as possible (Ala a 4th or 5th option). As a matter of fact his biggest games like you've said have had him just spotting up/cutting to basket/ the playing off the ball.

He can guard positions 1-4 and defensively is capable of playing anywhere. As far as you saying that he can't shoot and score consistently and isn't a playmaker Id argue that this is 80% on the coaching staff. Ive posted this in the game threads many times but AG really has untapped potential as a playmaker. Obviously, the assist numbers don't show it as the coaches just don't ask him to do it but he is a very underrated passer and playmaker. It's just frustrating that Vogel puts the ball in Fournier's hands and asks him to be one when AG is more capable. We just dont take advantage of that skillset of his.

Also, I mean he's averaging 18 ppg this year so I wouldn't say that he can't score consistently, but the coaching staff could make his scoring come so much easier if they played him in the pick and roll and cut him to the basket. It seems like for two years now we just put the ball in his hands and while he is much more capable of taking a 4 off the dribble when the floor is spaced id still like for us to limit the amount he has to do it. I feel that you're underrating his scoring abilities a bit. I mean saying that he is best suited as a 4th or 5th option is a stretch in my opinion. If you paired AG next to an elite scoring playmaker (Curry, Westbook,etc) I really feel that he could be in the perfect situation a Robin to one of those guys. That's why I desperately want us to get Doncic as he could make life a lot easier on Gordon.

When AG has space to operate, he is perfectly capable of taking a 4 off the dribble. His solid handle and ability to finish with his athleticism around the basket makes him effective at it. During January when his percentages dropped some of those lineups we were forced to roll out due to injury left no space for him to drive. That's when AG really got into the habit of settling for the jump shot. Similar to his time at small forward last year. I think the reason we don't see it as often as we want is partly due to him not having the space to do it these last two seasons and partly due to him picking up bad habits during his stint at SF and the second half of this year.

My other issue though is nobody thought Dipo was capable of what he's shown this season while he was here. I was a huge Dipo supporter and had countless debates with people on Dipo about how high his ceiling was. I remember getting laughed at on the Chicago board talking about a Butler trade when I argued that Dipo had a similar ceiling and would be an all-star. I had similar debates here. It's easy to say now that Oladipo had all the makings of an All-star in hindsight, but when we traded him and when he got traded last summer nobody was saying it. The majority of the time it takes a player being in the right situation with the right roster around him to unlock that potential. We failed to do it for Dipo and we failed to do It for AG. Id really just like to try and put a better roster around AG before we give up on another young guy.

I know you say we've given him his chances and I think thats somewhat fair, but the kid is still just 22 and has seen quite a significant uptick in ppg, rpg, and 3pt fg% this year. There is still a lot of untapped potential imo that I feel with the right coaching staff and roster could be unlocked.

[yoyojw17]

I've got a bad hunch that AG is going to be the next Dipo for us. One thing I agree with that recent Lowe article about is how puzzling it is that we don't play to AG's strengths on offense. A guy that has finished as well as he has throughout his career cutting to the basket should be involved in way more pick and roll attempts. We rarely find him on cuts to the basket and have instead let him fall in love with his jumper like he has. He's picked up bad habits here mostly due to Vogel's lack of an offensive scheme and the selfish culture that we have. I strongly feel that a more stable organization will be able to correct those things.

With as many people wanting to move on from AG as they are it reminds me of Dipos final year here. I can't remember how many countless trade scenarios I saw people proposing. People said that we had to choose one or the other of Evan or Dipo because we couldn't pay both or they couldn't play together long term and many choose to move on from Dipo due the price he would cost in restricted free agency (eerily similar to the Isaac/Gordon dilemma we have now). Everyone wanted to include him in a package on draft night for Butler. When the reality is trades never work out that way. You generally end up getting less value in return like we did, when if we had put a better roster and consistent coaching staff around Dipo in the first place we would have had a player pretty damn close to Butler to begin with. He and Evan could have worked together and we would have been much better off paying both of them and moved on from some of the other players causing the culture issues rather than dumping Dipo. I think we would be better off developing Gordon and Isaac at the 4/5 and looking for the playmaking and point guard play in the upcoming drafts instead of sign and trading AG for one even though others disagree.

Anyways, I fear that I will once again be watching a young player we gave up on thrive on his next team. A much more competent organization like Utah will get him and play to his strengths on offense and will have an all-star on their hands. It just too bad our organization is as incompetent as they are. I seriously hope that I am wrong but I'm doubtful that I will be.

This is what kills me with our team at times. Players are either not used at all or not used to their strength while given the opportunity to expand their games. instead player look inept or lacking of skill to be in the NBA. Maximize strengths from the beginning and build from there.

[VFX]

I've got a bad hunch that AG is going to be the next Dipo for us. One thing I agree with that recent Lowe article about is how puzzling it is that we don't play to AG's strengths on offense. A guy that has finished as well as he has throughout his career cutting to the basket should be involved in way more pick and roll attempts. We rarely find him on cuts to the basket and have instead let him fall in love with his jumper like he has. He's picked up bad habits here mostly due to Vogel's lack of an offensive scheme and the selfish culture that we have. I strongly feel that a more stable organization will be able to correct those things.

With as many people wanting to move on from AG as they are it reminds me of Dipos final year here. I can't remember how many countless trade scenarios I saw people proposing. People said that we had to choose one or the other of Evan or Dipo because we couldn't pay both or they couldn't play together long term and many choose to move on from Dipo due the price he would cost in restricted free agency (eerily similar to the Isaac/Gordon dilemma we have now). Everyone wanted to include him in a package on draft night for Butler. When the reality is trades never work out that way. You generally end up getting less value in return like we did, when if we had put a better roster and consistent coaching staff around Dipo in the first place we would have had a player pretty damn close to Butler to begin with. He and Evan could have worked together and we would have been much better off paying both of them and moved on from some of the other players causing the culture issues rather than dumping Dipo. I think we would be better off developing Gordon and Isaac at the 4/5 and looking for the playmaking and point guard play in the upcoming drafts instead of sign and trading AG for one even though others disagree.

Anyways, I fear that I will once again be watching a young player we gave up on thrive on his next team. A much more competent organization like Utah will get him and play to his strengths on offense and will have an all-star on their hands. It just too bad our organization is as incompetent as they are. I seriously hope that I am wrong but I'm doubtful that I will be.

He's not going to be the next Victor Oladipo... He doesn't have any skill-set to prove otherwise after 4 seasons... On the other hand his ceiling is that of an all-star caliber player (Though I don't believe he'll reach that either).

For me he's no Oladipo because at least Vic was a sound all-around player that did everything for his team. Gordon just doesn't have that versatility. So I don't have as much fear in seeing Gordon go as I only see him being a Tobias Harris type player at best. A tweener who can compliment another Star tweener in order to be completely effective/start-able.

What you've written is essentially the problem with Gordon defenders. You see him as a player that hasn't materialized in any way since he's been here. He can't create for himself, can't shoot/score consistently, can't play-make. This is not adding the fact that his body/defensive capabilities are much more plausible/fit for a 3 rather than a 4 though his best fit is a small ball PF. His strengths are that of a guy who should be playing off the ball as much as possible (Ala a 4th or 5th option). As a matter of fact his biggest games like you've said have had him just spotting up/cutting to basket/ the playing off the ball.

Watching him play for the last few years getting the opportunities from both Small Forward/Power Forward position his trajectory has more of a defined role. Blaming the organization for not putting him in the role to succeed is fair. But that's not putting in perspective that AG might not be the player that you guys have pegged him to be. He's had his chances...

I do agree though that he'd most likely be better on another team with more talent like the Sixers where he'd thrive as a 4th option. But on this team you're forcing him to something that he's not.

What you've written is essentially the problem with Gordon defenders. You see him as a player that hasn't materialized in any way since he's been here. He can't create for himself, can't shoot/score consistently, can't play-make. This is not adding the fact that his body/defensive capabilities are much more plausible/fit for a 3 rather than a 4 though his best fit is a small ball PF. His strengths are that of a guy who should be playing off the ball as much as possible (Ala a 4th or 5th option). As a matter of fact his biggest games like you've said have had him just spotting up/cutting to basket/ the playing off the ball.

He can guard positions 1-4 and defensively is capable of playing anywhere. As far as you saying that he can't shoot and score consistently and isn't a playmaker Id argue that this is 80% on the coaching staff. Ive posted this in the game threads many times but AG really has untapped potential as a playmaker. Obviously, the assist numbers don't show it as the coaches just don't ask him to do it but he is a very underrated passer and playmaker. It's just frustrating that Vogel puts the ball in Fournier's hands and asks him to be one when AG is more capable. We just dont take advantage of that skillset of his.

Also, I mean he's averaging 18 ppg this year so I wouldn't say that he can't score consistently, but the coaching staff could make his scoring come so much easier if they played him in the pick and roll and cut him to the basket. It seems like for two years now we just put the ball in his hands and while he is much more capable of taking a 4 off the dribble when the floor is spaced id still like for us to limit the amount he has to do it. I feel that you're underrating his scoring abilities a bit. I mean saying that he is best suited as a 4th or 5th option is a stretch in my opinion. If you paired AG next to an elite scoring playmaker (Curry, Westbook,etc) I really feel that he could be in the perfect situation a Robin to one of those guys. That's why I desperately want us to get Doncic as he could make life a lot easier on Gordon.

When AG has space to operate, he is perfectly capable of taking a 4 off the dribble. His solid handle and ability to finish with his athleticism around the basket makes him effective at it. During January when his percentages dropped some of those lineups we were forced to roll out due to injury left no space for him to drive. That's when AG really got into the habit of settling for the jump shot. Similar to his time at small forward last year. I think the reason we don't see it as often as we want is partly due to him not having the space to do it these last two seasons and partly due to him picking up bad habits during his stint at SF and the second half of this year.

My other issue though is nobody thought Dipo was capable of what he's shown this season while he was here. I was a huge Dipo supporter and had countless debates with people on Dipo about how high his ceiling was. I remember getting laughed at on the Chicago board talking about a Butler trade when I argued that Dipo had a similar ceiling and would be an all-star. I had similar debates here. It's easy to say now that Oladipo had all the makings of an All-star in hindsight, but when we traded him and when he got traded last summer nobody was saying it. The majority of the time it takes a player being in the right situation with the right roster around him to unlock that potential. We failed to do it for Dipo and we failed to do It for AG. Id really just like to try and put a better roster around AG before we give up on another young guy.

I know you say we've given him his chances and I think thats somewhat fair, but the kid is still just 22 and has seen quite a significant uptick in ppg, rpg, and 3pt fg% this year. There is still a lot of untapped potential imo that I feel with the right coaching staff and roster could be unlocked.

I’ve been a critic of AG for a while and although he has never been put in a situation to succeed here as a #1 option (which he isn’t) he would do better next to actual talent. Vuc and Evan are essentially roleplayers on a good team.

This is why I was pissed with the drafting of Isaac. We pretty much knew he was at least a defensive PF at 6’11 and rail thin. Gordon plays the same position and has an extremely similar skill set (for those that don’t believe positions exist). Drafting Isaac said one of two things
1) That they aren’t as committed to AG
2) That they believe there is enough offense to substantiate having two face up forwards that have similar strengths and weaknesses.

So here we are as expected with two guys who have little to no on court time, holes at other positions that need to be filled, an unbalanced roster with untradable contracts, a draft heavy in bigs, and a large contract extension for a player that has been the face of this franchise for better or worse since he was drafted.

Lastly, AG in my opinion will never be in a good situation here in Orlando until either a superstar talent is drafted or the majority of the roster is moved to accommodate him. Why? Because he struggles to generate offense by himself and can’t be the focus of the opposing defense.

[OrlandO]

One thing I agree with that recent Lowe article about is how puzzling it is that we don't play to AG's strengths on offense. A guy that has finished as well as he has throughout his career cutting to the basket should be involved in way more pick and roll attempts. We rarely find him on cuts to the basket and have instead let him fall in love with his jumper like he has. He's picked up bad habits here mostly due to Vogel's lack of an offensive scheme and the selfish culture that we have. I strongly feel that a more stable organization will be able to correct those things.

Gordon didn't want to play to his strengths though... he wanted the ball in his hands like a star and his fanboys cheered him on for that attitude earlier in the season. Vogel and management tried to encourage AG to play more efficiently like he did post all star break last season. Who knows, maybe if we didn't get slammed with injuries they would have fought a little harder to keep AG in check. But that didn't happen. We threw him in the deep end like he wanted and now we face the consequences. At 20 million it's a no brainer... at 25 million management might now give pause. No idea what's going to happen. Hopefully AG played himself out of a max offer and it simplifies the decision for management... then he finally makes the jump we need him to make over the summer.

[PrimeThyme]

One thing I agree with that recent Lowe article about is how puzzling it is that we don't play to AG's strengths on offense. A guy that has finished as well as he has throughout his career cutting to the basket should be involved in way more pick and roll attempts. We rarely find him on cuts to the basket and have instead let him fall in love with his jumper like he has. He's picked up bad habits here mostly due to Vogel's lack of an offensive scheme and the selfish culture that we have. I strongly feel that a more stable organization will be able to correct those things.

Gordon didn't want to play to his strengths though... he wanted the ball in his hands like a star and his fanboys cheered him on for that attitude earlier in the season. Vogel and management tried to encourage AG to play more efficiently like he did post all star break last season. Who knows, maybe if we didn't get slammed with injuries they would have fought a little harder to keep AG in check. But that didn't happen. We threw him in the deep end like he wanted and now we face the consequences. At 20 million it's a no brainer... at 25 million management might now give pause. No idea what's going to happen. Hopefully AG played himself out of a max offer and it simplifies the decision for management... then he finally makes the jump we need him to make over the summer.

How about instead of encouraging him actually doing something about it, and put an offensive system in place that actually plays to players strengths. Get him involved in the pick and roll and on cuts to the basket instead of camping him out on the perimeter and asking him to make a play off the dribble every single time. AG is never going to make the jump we want him to make as long as Vogel is here. But sadly I'm sure that Vogel and a lot of the tenured guys will outlast another young player. If AG walks for nothing it will be a travesty.

[PrimeThyme]

He's not going to be the next Victor Oladipo... He doesn't have any skill-set to prove otherwise after 4 seasons... On the other hand his ceiling is that of an all-star caliber player (Though I don't believe he'll reach that either).

For me he's no Oladipo because at least Vic was a sound all-around player that did everything for his team. Gordon just doesn't have that versatility. So I don't have as much fear in seeing Gordon go as I only see him being a Tobias Harris type player at best. A tweener who can compliment another Star tweener in order to be completely effective/start-able.

What you've written is essentially the problem with Gordon defenders. You see him as a player that hasn't materialized in any way since he's been here. He can't create for himself, can't shoot/score consistently, can't play-make. This is not adding the fact that his body/defensive capabilities are much more plausible/fit for a 3 rather than a 4 though his best fit is a small ball PF. His strengths are that of a guy who should be playing off the ball as much as possible (Ala a 4th or 5th option). As a matter of fact his biggest games like you've said have had him just spotting up/cutting to basket/ the playing off the ball.

Watching him play for the last few years getting the opportunities from both Small Forward/Power Forward position his trajectory has more of a defined role. Blaming the organization for not putting him in the role to succeed is fair. But that's not putting in perspective that AG might not be the player that you guys have pegged him to be. He's had his chances...

I do agree though that he'd most likely be better on another team with more talent like the Sixers where he'd thrive as a 4th option. But on this team you're forcing him to something that he's not.

What you've written is essentially the problem with Gordon defenders. You see him as a player that hasn't materialized in any way since he's been here. He can't create for himself, can't shoot/score consistently, can't play-make. This is not adding the fact that his body/defensive capabilities are much more plausible/fit for a 3 rather than a 4 though his best fit is a small ball PF. His strengths are that of a guy who should be playing off the ball as much as possible (Ala a 4th or 5th option). As a matter of fact his biggest games like you've said have had him just spotting up/cutting to basket/ the playing off the ball.

He can guard positions 1-4 and defensively is capable of playing anywhere. As far as you saying that he can't shoot and score consistently and isn't a playmaker Id argue that this is 80% on the coaching staff. Ive posted this in the game threads many times but AG really has untapped potential as a playmaker. Obviously, the assist numbers don't show it as the coaches just don't ask him to do it but he is a very underrated passer and playmaker. It's just frustrating that Vogel puts the ball in Fournier's hands and asks him to be one when AG is more capable. We just dont take advantage of that skillset of his.

Also, I mean he's averaging 18 ppg this year so I wouldn't say that he can't score consistently, but the coaching staff could make his scoring come so much easier if they played him in the pick and roll and cut him to the basket. It seems like for two years now we just put the ball in his hands and while he is much more capable of taking a 4 off the dribble when the floor is spaced id still like for us to limit the amount he has to do it. I feel that you're underrating his scoring abilities a bit. I mean saying that he is best suited as a 4th or 5th option is a stretch in my opinion. If you paired AG next to an elite scoring playmaker (Curry, Westbook,etc) I really feel that he could be in the perfect situation a Robin to one of those guys. That's why I desperately want us to get Doncic as he could make life a lot easier on Gordon.

When AG has space to operate, he is perfectly capable of taking a 4 off the dribble. His solid handle and ability to finish with his athleticism around the basket makes him effective at it. During January when his percentages dropped some of those lineups we were forced to roll out due to injury left no space for him to drive. That's when AG really got into the habit of settling for the jump shot. Similar to his time at small forward last year. I think the reason we don't see it as often as we want is partly due to him not having the space to do it these last two seasons and partly due to him picking up bad habits during his stint at SF and the second half of this year.

My other issue though is nobody thought Dipo was capable of what he's shown this season while he was here. I was a huge Dipo supporter and had countless debates with people on Dipo about how high his ceiling was. I remember getting laughed at on the Chicago board talking about a Butler trade when I argued that Dipo had a similar ceiling and would be an all-star. I had similar debates here. It's easy to say now that Oladipo had all the makings of an All-star in hindsight, but when we traded him and when he got traded last summer nobody was saying it. The majority of the time it takes a player being in the right situation with the right roster around him to unlock that potential. We failed to do it for Dipo and we failed to do It for AG. Id really just like to try and put a better roster around AG before we give up on another young guy.

I know you say we've given him his chances and I think thats somewhat fair, but the kid is still just 22 and has seen quite a significant uptick in ppg, rpg, and 3pt fg% this year. There is still a lot of untapped potential imo that I feel with the right coaching staff and roster could be unlocked.

I’ve been a critic of AG for a while and although he has never been put in a situation to succeed here as a #1 option (which he isn’t) he would do better next to actual talent. Vuc and Evan are essentially roleplayers on a good team.

This is why I was pissed with the drafting of Isaac. We pretty much knew he was at least a defensive PF at 6’11 and rail thin. Gordon plays the same position and has an extremely similar skill set (for those that don’t believe positions exist). Drafting Isaac said one of two things
1) That they aren’t as committed to AG
2) That they believe there is enough offense to substantiate having two face up forwards that have similar strengths and weaknesses.

So here we are as expected with two guys who have little to no on court time, holes at other positions that need to be filled, an unbalanced roster with untradable contracts, a draft heavy in bigs, and a large contract extension for a player that has been the face of this franchise for better or worse since he was drafted.

Lastly, AG in my opinion will never be in a good situation here in Orlando until either a superstar talent is drafted or the majority of the roster is moved to accommodate him. Why? Because he struggles to generate offense by himself and can’t be the focus of the opposing defense.

Those are all fair points and could all very well be true, but I think a just as fair 3rd option is that they envision him and AG playing at the 3/4 or 4/5 long term. I mean Weltman made it clear the day we drafted him that he wouldn't pigeonhole him into any one position. I know a lot of people are certain that he can't play the 3 but I'm not sure that's the case with WeHam. I think he's still determining what kind of player he wants to mold Isaac into and what we do with AG this summer will tell us alot about what we do with Isaac.

Again though that's just me holding out hope that that is what they had in mind. If it turns out to be the first option and AG walks, I think it will be a huge mistake.

[OrlandO]

One thing I agree with that recent Lowe article about is how puzzling it is that we don't play to AG's strengths on offense. A guy that has finished as well as he has throughout his career cutting to the basket should be involved in way more pick and roll attempts. We rarely find him on cuts to the basket and have instead let him fall in love with his jumper like he has. He's picked up bad habits here mostly due to Vogel's lack of an offensive scheme and the selfish culture that we have. I strongly feel that a more stable organization will be able to correct those things.

Gordon didn't want to play to his strengths though... he wanted the ball in his hands like a star and his fanboys cheered him on for that attitude earlier in the season. Vogel and management tried to encourage AG to play more efficiently like he did post all star break last season. Who knows, maybe if we didn't get slammed with injuries they would have fought a little harder to keep AG in check. But that didn't happen. We threw him in the deep end like he wanted and now we face the consequences. At 20 million it's a no brainer... at 25 million management might now give pause. No idea what's going to happen. Hopefully AG played himself out of a max offer and it simplifies the decision for management... then he finally makes the jump we need him to make over the summer.

How about instead of encouraging him actually doing something about it, and put an offensive system in place that actually plays to players strengths. Get him involved in the pick and roll and on cuts to the basket instead of camping him out on the perimeter and asking him to make a play off the dribble every single time. AG is never going to make the jump we want him to make as long as Vogel is here. But sadly I'm sure that Vogel and a lot of the tenured guys will outlast another young player. If AG walks for nothing it will be a travesty.

Every player on this team is handicapped by Vogel's crappy offense and coaching. This really isn't a surprise because he already had a reputation for bad offense and game management coming in. We are possibly stuck with Vogel for another year, so it's going to be on AG to develop and adjust. Just like it was on Fournier and Vuc to adjust from the previous year. If Gordon's got it in him next season it should shine through... part of being a star is being able to carry a team. If he can't do that then he's not a star yet... simple as that.

[pepe1991]

Biggest problem with Gordon is simple.HE has skillset that makes him offball PF like Young/Šarić ( more talented tho) but guy who should not initiete offense but let offense come to him, get rebounds, run , push pace, hit open 3s and swing a ball.
Instad of it,he forces awful shots, is one of worst iso players in whole league and takes off dribble contested 2s and 3s that he most of the time can't make.

His percentages per distance tell whole story what his role should be:

0-3 feet whooping 72%
3-10 feet 29%
10 -16 feet 39%
16- to 3 point line -29%
3 point line - 34,8%

He is basically terrible in every single chart but 3 point shots and layups. Yet, 34% of all his shots are between 3 and 22 feet and whooping 38,8% of all FGA are threes and he has been bearly average 3 point shooter for a season, in reality he has been terrible since November but hot October and November hide truth about his shooting. Since November he is 29% three point shooter who took 168 threes in 44 games (49-168).

Looking at all this, it's clear that he is best used as third option on good team. How much money are you willing to spend on third option ? Depends what you have. Magic don't have anything really so he will continue to be their Josh Smith ,doing waaay more that he should, until somebody else can step up in that role.


bonus: pls don't use raw PPG as "proof "that somebody can score. Harris, Barnes, TJ Warren, Jamal Murray, Howard, Ingram,Randle, Rivers ,Bledsoe are all 15-20 ppg players this year. I don't find any of them amazing by any mean. PPGs come from FGA. Gordon shoots a lot. 15 FGA. More than any Magic player since Dwight days.

[drsd]

Gordon is a beta, #2 guy on a great team. He should easily have multiple 20ppg seasons and could have an all-defensive selection at some point; so long as he strings health seasons together.

Indeed my ONLY concern for Gordon is if his body can withstand his game.


..

[Optimus_Steel]

I see Gordon as a 3rd best scoring option on a team. Not bad but not a star. He is lacking the skill set that star players possess, he is a finisher and not a good creator at all. Looking at his isolation numbers they are putrid, puke worthy. With that said, after seeing how Dipo improved his game this year we have to either sign AG long term or trade him for something really good. What we got back for Dipo was terrible, declining veteran and we gave up a 1st rounder as well for what reason? Rob got taken for a ride by his old/current boss because he was trying to save his job. BTW, at the same stage in their careers Dipo was a better player than AG is now.

[Blue_and_Whte]

I've got a bad hunch that AG is going to be the next Dipo for us. One thing I agree with that recent Lowe article about is how puzzling it is that we don't play to AG's strengths on offense. A guy that has finished as well as he has throughout his career cutting to the basket should be involved in way more pick and roll attempts. We rarely find him on cuts to the basket and have instead let him fall in love with his jumper like he has. He's picked up bad habits here mostly due to Vogel's lack of an offensive scheme and the selfish culture that we have. I strongly feel that a more stable organization will be able to correct those things.

With as many people wanting to move on from AG as they are it reminds me of Dipos final year here. I can't remember how many countless trade scenarios I saw people proposing. People said that we had to choose one or the other of Evan or Dipo because we couldn't pay both or they couldn't play together long term and many choose to move on from Dipo due the price he would cost in restricted free agency (eerily similar to the Isaac/Gordon dilemma we have now). Everyone wanted to include him in a package on draft night for Butler. When the reality is trades never work out that way. You generally end up getting less value in return like we did, when if we had put a better roster and consistent coaching staff around Dipo in the first place we would have had a player pretty damn close to Butler to begin with. He and Evan could have worked together and we would have been much better off paying both of them and moved on from some of the other players causing the culture issues rather than dumping Dipo. I think we would be better off developing Gordon and Isaac at the 4/5 and looking for the playmaking and point guard play in the upcoming drafts instead of sign and trading AG for one even though others disagree.

Anyways, I fear that I will once again be watching a young player we gave up on thrive on his next team. A much more competent organization like Utah will get him and play to his strengths on offense and will have an all-star on their hands. It just too bad our organization is as incompetent as they are. I seriously hope that I am wrong but I'm doubtful that I will be.

There was someone saying he’d turn into a version of Butler....people scoffed at him who wa.... oh that’s right it was ME.





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[PrimeThyme]

I think its also a common misconception that Gordon "fanboys" as you call it wanted the ball in AG's hands for him to just go and create and take step back 3's and long twos. What people wanted was for AG to have a consistent role in the offense and for him to get the touches that Evan and Vuc did. I wanted those to be the right touches though (cutting to the basket, open 3 pointers, Alley oops, etc) and to introduce the other additions to his game when necessary but that's not what we have gotten. Every player that has expanded his game offensively like AG has is going to take his lumps but its up to the coaching staff to reign him in and make sure he's still doing the things he's great at and not primarily just asked to sit on the perimeter and create for himself.

If Vogel is here for another year than it's almost as good as AG just walking because we will continue to hurt his development.

[Instincts]

Interesting, still a lot of skepticism of Gordons long term ceiling even after this dramatic improvement...

he is currently the #2 player in a redraft of a solid 2014 draft...to my eye there is very little and a shrinking possibility that AG is not a perennial all-star.