tiderulz wrote:magicfan4life88 wrote:Cmon now guys, are we really still talking about the Payton trade? PHX rented him for the tank, we got robbed but we got robbed because it benefitted their tank
we didnt get robbed. getting robbed would mean that we took less value in the trade than he was worth. His league-wide worth was not high and has not been. Rob gambled on his development and Elf failed him
PennytoShaq wrote:MagicMatic wrote:PennytoShaq wrote:
I clearly explained why they waited. I mean, I don't understand how you would misrepresent everything I said that poorly, but you managed to pull it off.
To twist it like I said that the Warriors FO evaluated, so the magic copied them - that is just such a weak attempt at redirecting the discussion. It should be very clear that the point was that what Weham did not is not out of the norm and it is something other front offices have done in the past. Additionally, the main point is that you are like to criticize this FO, but it seems as if you do not really read much about what successful FO's have done in the past, and more importantly - why.
The actual fact is that you have no idea what the Magic would have gotten for Elfrid that summer. The reality is that none of our players were highly valued at that time anyway. The entire league already knew he was a poor shooter who struggled at PnR defense. You insinuate that you already knew this from "watching film", yet you want to pretend as if other GM's did not and we could have pulled off a great trade? That's a pretty irrational stance if you think about it.
What are you talking about? I twisted nothing. That was the example you chose to use. I don’t have to read about the art and craft of being a GM in the nba to see what does and doesn’t work on the court with my eyes. You are very adamant defending this current management that has proven nothing since taking over for Henigan.
By the way, warriors example is hilarious. This management traded draft picks for nothing and the warriors capitalized on them. You know why the warriors are successful? Talent. They nailed every draft pick after being atrocious forever. Of course they are going to be successful landing the best players in the draft Draymond pick 35, Klay 11, Curry 7, Barnes 7, and getting vets like Iguadala to jump in after emulating Orlando’s scheme in 08-09.
How do you not know what I was talking about still? I could not be more clear. Let me try again in a simpler format:
You are complaining about things you essentially admitted that you do not fully understand.
You do need to understand the craft of being a GM in the league so you can grasp the basic concepts of why certain decisions are made, instead of blindly criticizing things with no context. There are tons of podcasts and interviews with FO staff that are worth listening to so you can get a better understanding of why decisions are made.
Bonus - You claim to have seen what worked on the court in your eyes, yet somehow believe that the rival GMs did not, and were willing to offer more for Elf than what he was worth at the beginning of the season. If you can't see the hypocrisy in that, then I don't know what to tell you.
PennytoShaq wrote:MagicMatic wrote:PennytoShaq wrote:
I clearly explained why they waited. I mean, I don't understand how you would misrepresent everything I said that poorly, but you managed to pull it off.
To twist it like I said that the Warriors FO evaluated, so the magic copied them - that is just such a weak attempt at redirecting the discussion. It should be very clear that the point was that what Weham did not is not out of the norm and it is something other front offices have done in the past. Additionally, the main point is that you are like to criticize this FO, but it seems as if you do not really read much about what successful FO's have done in the past, and more importantly - why.
The actual fact is that you have no idea what the Magic would have gotten for Elfrid that summer. The reality is that none of our players were highly valued at that time anyway. The entire league already knew he was a poor shooter who struggled at PnR defense. You insinuate that you already knew this from "watching film", yet you want to pretend as if other GM's did not and we could have pulled off a great trade? That's a pretty irrational stance if you think about it.
What are you talking about? I twisted nothing. That was the example you chose to use. I don’t have to read about the art and craft of being a GM in the nba to see what does and doesn’t work on the court with my eyes. You are very adamant defending this current management that has proven nothing since taking over for Henigan.
By the way, warriors example is hilarious. This management traded draft picks for nothing and the warriors capitalized on them. You know why the warriors are successful? Talent. They nailed every draft pick after being atrocious forever. Of course they are going to be successful landing the best players in the draft Draymond pick 35, Klay 11, Curry 7, Barnes 7, and getting vets like Iguadala to jump in after emulating Orlando’s scheme in 08-09.
How do you not know what I was talking about still? I could not be more clear. Let me try again in a simpler format:
You are complaining about things you essentially admitted that you do not fully understand.
You do need to understand the craft of being a GM in the league so you can grasp the basic concepts of why certain decisions are made, instead of blindly criticizing things with no context.
BadMofoPimp wrote:Durant thinks Vooch is one of the Best Centers in the NBA. I will take his word over a couch-GM yelling at a TV.
MagicMatic wrote:PennytoShaq wrote:MagicMatic wrote:
What are you talking about? I twisted nothing. That was the example you chose to use. I don’t have to read about the art and craft of being a GM in the nba to see what does and doesn’t work on the court with my eyes. You are very adamant defending this current management that has proven nothing since taking over for Henigan.
By the way, warriors example is hilarious. This management traded draft picks for nothing and the warriors capitalized on them. You know why the warriors are successful? Talent. They nailed every draft pick after being atrocious forever. Of course they are going to be successful landing the best players in the draft Draymond pick 35, Klay 11, Curry 7, Barnes 7, and getting vets like Iguadala to jump in after emulating Orlando’s scheme in 08-09.
How do you not know what I was talking about still? I could not be more clear. Let me try again in a simpler format:
You are complaining about things you essentially admitted that you do not fully understand.
You do need to understand the craft of being a GM in the league so you can grasp the basic concepts of why certain decisions are made, instead of blindly criticizing things with no context. There are tons of podcasts and interviews with FO staff that are worth listening to so you can get a better understanding of why decisions are made.
Bonus - You claim to have seen what worked on the court in your eyes, yet somehow believe that the rival GMs did not, and were willing to offer more for Elf than what he was worth at the beginning of the season. If you can't see the hypocrisy in that, then I don't know what to tell you.
Ok GM Pennytoshaq I’ll come to you for all the advice I need when I lead my front office in the nba. You must be a pro in 2k. Fill me in on WeHams next moves too. We are all dying to know.
I think you’ve overblown the conversation once again because someone has criticisms of this current management, there is context and I’ve explained exactly why it’s available for criticism. How are you adamant I “don’t fully understand?”. I have my opinions and you have yours.
j-ragg wrote:PennytoShaq wrote:MagicMatic wrote:
What are you talking about? I twisted nothing. That was the example you chose to use. I don’t have to read about the art and craft of being a GM in the nba to see what does and doesn’t work on the court with my eyes. You are very adamant defending this current management that has proven nothing since taking over for Henigan.
By the way, warriors example is hilarious. This management traded draft picks for nothing and the warriors capitalized on them. You know why the warriors are successful? Talent. They nailed every draft pick after being atrocious forever. Of course they are going to be successful landing the best players in the draft Draymond pick 35, Klay 11, Curry 7, Barnes 7, and getting vets like Iguadala to jump in after emulating Orlando’s scheme in 08-09.
How do you not know what I was talking about still? I could not be more clear. Let me try again in a simpler format:
You are complaining about things you essentially admitted that you do not fully understand.
You do need to understand the craft of being a GM in the league so you can grasp the basic concepts of why certain decisions are made, instead of blindly criticizing things with no context.
You're putting that RealGM name to work
Obviously such a true GM. PennytoShaq wrote:MagicMatic wrote:PennytoShaq wrote:
How do you not know what I was talking about still? I could not be more clear. Let me try again in a simpler format:
You are complaining about things you essentially admitted that you do not fully understand.
You do need to understand the craft of being a GM in the league so you can grasp the basic concepts of why certain decisions are made, instead of blindly criticizing things with no context. There are tons of podcasts and interviews with FO staff that are worth listening to so you can get a better understanding of why decisions are made.
Bonus - You claim to have seen what worked on the court in your eyes, yet somehow believe that the rival GMs did not, and were willing to offer more for Elf than what he was worth at the beginning of the season. If you can't see the hypocrisy in that, then I don't know what to tell you.
Ok GM Pennytoshaq I’ll come to you for all the advice I need when I lead my front office in the nba. You must be a pro in 2k. Fill me in on WeHams next moves too. We are all dying to know.
I think you’ve overblown the conversation once again because someone has criticisms of this current management, there is context and I’ve explained exactly why it’s available for criticism. How are you adamant I “don’t fully understand?”. I have my opinions and you have yours.
Opinions are fine. I took issue because you were making statements and saying that they were facts.
j-ragg wrote:PennytoShaq wrote:MagicMatic wrote:
What are you talking about? I twisted nothing. That was the example you chose to use. I don’t have to read about the art and craft of being a GM in the nba to see what does and doesn’t work on the court with my eyes. You are very adamant defending this current management that has proven nothing since taking over for Henigan.
By the way, warriors example is hilarious. This management traded draft picks for nothing and the warriors capitalized on them. You know why the warriors are successful? Talent. They nailed every draft pick after being atrocious forever. Of course they are going to be successful landing the best players in the draft Draymond pick 35, Klay 11, Curry 7, Barnes 7, and getting vets like Iguadala to jump in after emulating Orlando’s scheme in 08-09.
How do you not know what I was talking about still? I could not be more clear. Let me try again in a simpler format:
You are complaining about things you essentially admitted that you do not fully understand.
You do need to understand the craft of being a GM in the league so you can grasp the basic concepts of why certain decisions are made, instead of blindly criticizing things with no context.
You're putting that RealGM name to work
MagicMatic wrote:PennytoShaq wrote:MagicMatic wrote:
Ok GM Pennytoshaq I’ll come to you for all the advice I need when I lead my front office in the nba. You must be a pro in 2k. Fill me in on WeHams next moves too. We are all dying to know.
I think you’ve overblown the conversation once again because someone has criticisms of this current management, there is context and I’ve explained exactly why it’s available for criticism. How are you adamant I “don’t fully understand?”. I have my opinions and you have yours.
Opinions are fine. I took issue because you were making statements and saying that they were facts.
The only thing I stated as a fact is that contracts are less valuable if they are closer to expiring.
tiderulz wrote:Def Swami wrote:tiderulz wrote:we should be able to pick up a similar player in the 2nd round for a lot cheaper.
I think landing any player that can stick in the 2nd round is a bit of a crap shoot, let alone one that can be a 3&D guard.
Shake Milton is projected 2nd round, i would love him on the team. Devonte Graham, Jevon Carter, there are 3&D PG's to be had
Def Swami wrote:Just off the top, I recall Sam Hinkie coming in and trading Jrue Holiday, an allstar that season, for picks 3 months into his job. Masai Ujiri traded Rudy Gay in December of his first season as GM. They came in with a direction for the team from the jump. I understand keeping Vogel to an extent, but this roster had so many miles on it to know that Vucevic's game was aging out and Payton can't start at point guard. Some of those core issues that have been with the team for years should have been addressed early on. I don't think they needed a full season to sit on this roster.
tiderulz wrote:magicfan4life88 wrote:Cmon now guys, are we really still talking about the Payton trade? PHX rented him for the tank, we got robbed but we got robbed because it benefitted their tank
we didnt get robbed. getting robbed would mean that we took less value in the trade than he was worth. His league-wide worth was not high and has not been. Rob gambled on his development and Elf failed him
MagicMatic wrote:GortatExpress wrote:MagicMatic wrote:
So it’s not a fact that they waited until the very last moment to trade players on expiring deals for less than what they could have gotten for them? Elfrid couldn’t have gotten them more earlier than later? News to me. Different situation, but they have to take risks when they step into that role. It’s a fact. It happend. Moving on.
It’s not at all naive to think they could control what they were hired to do and still didn’t. Yeah it’s Martins fault they couldn’t fire Vogel, but they are still in total control (supposedly) of the roster decisions he has to work with.
Why would they play to Vogel knowing they were going to can him after an obviously losing season with an inept roster that makes zero sense? I’m not saying everyone here on this board already knew it wasn’t working, but it’s not hard to see the roster needed (and still needs) an overhaul.
So why wait? You make it seem like these guys have a grace period before they can make changes. Why not make trades and move ineffective pieces to a less than cohesive roster for the highest value possible? Oh because the Warriors front office waited too? Great rationale.
I get a feeling WeHam are taking the no-stone left unturned approach and are not going to make rash decisions and changes for the sake of making changes.
It’s easy to sit far away and come in and quickly make changes but it takes time to know what and who you are really working with. Maybe the team needed a little tweak or maybe wholesale changes- those are decisions that can’t haopen quickly just to appease a downtrodden fan base that is trying to grab onto anything positive, no matter how short sighted it is.
I like this approach that WeHam is taking. They spent a year evaluating and seeing who needs to go and who can be part of the future and foundation.
The key is for us to be patient as fans and give WeHam the benefit of the doubt and give them time to clean things up.
If after Year 3 we still don’t see the light and no progress is made, then any criticism leveled at them will be 100% deserved
So by cleaning up that means getting terrible value for EP, trading valuable second round picks for nothing, and being forced to let Vogel stick out the rest of his contract on a tanking season only to come up 6th in the draft?
FFBlitzace wrote:I think adding VanVleet and hoping to make him your full time starter would be a fool's errand. As a backup he's solid and he could still improve, being only 23, but I think he's in that precarious spot that guys at his level tend to find themselves, where's there's virtually no chance of him making an appropriate amount of money on this upcoming contract. If someone does throw some significant money at him to make him their starter, he won't live up to that expectation and there will be disappointment. If Toronto pays to keep him, he'll be a backup making more money than you want a backup to be making. I think he's doomed to be a bad contract for somebody. Not that he'll mind when he's cashing his checks.
MagicMatic wrote:PennytoShaq wrote:MagicMatic wrote:
Ok GM Pennytoshaq I’ll come to you for all the advice I need when I lead my front office in the nba. You must be a pro in 2k. Fill me in on WeHams next moves too. We are all dying to know.
I think you’ve overblown the conversation once again because someone has criticisms of this current management, there is context and I’ve explained exactly why it’s available for criticism. How are you adamant I “don’t fully understand?”. I have my opinions and you have yours.
Opinions are fine. I took issue because you were making statements and saying that they were facts.
The only thing I stated as a fact is that contracts are less valuable if they are closer to expiring.
MagicFan101 wrote:MagicMatic wrote:PennytoShaq wrote:
Opinions are fine. I took issue because you were making statements and saying that they were facts.
The only thing I stated as a fact is that contracts are less valuable if they are closer to expiring.
That isn’t a fact. The value of a contract depends on the size of the contract and which player is attached to the contact.
For example: If we keep the player constant, would Biz’s deal the first season in be worth more on the market than it will soon as an expiring? You can’t honestly believe that...
MagicMatic wrote:MagicFan101 wrote:MagicMatic wrote:
The only thing I stated as a fact is that contracts are less valuable if they are closer to expiring.
That isn’t a fact. The value of a contract depends on the size of the contract and which player is attached to the contact.
For example: If we keep the player constant, would Biz’s deal the first season in be worth more on the market than it will soon as an expiring? You can’t honestly believe that...
Coming off a rookie deal obviously. Didn’t think I needed to add that.
MagicFan101 wrote:MagicMatic wrote:MagicFan101 wrote:
That isn’t a fact. The value of a contract depends on the size of the contract and which player is attached to the contact.
For example: If we keep the player constant, would Biz’s deal the first season in be worth more on the market than it will soon as an expiring? You can’t honestly believe that...
Coming off a rookie deal obviously. Didn’t think I needed to add that.
Rookie deal? What?
I’m talking about his deal right now with Orlando. Are you saying in his first year in that $17M per contract, he was more valuable to us in trades then he will be as an expiring contract when that season gets here?
