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How to build (again)

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Which up-and-coming organization should the Magic emulate in their re-rebuild?

Celtics (Culture and Coaching)
19
50%
76ers (Tanking and Talent)
8
21%
Jazz (Depth, Scouting and Never-Tank)
7
18%
Timberwolves (Lottery and an added star)
2
5%
Pelicans (Super-Duper star and supporting cast)
2
5%
Other (state below)
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 38

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How to build (again) 

Post#1 » by YosemiteSam » Fri May 11, 2018 1:45 pm

I think most people on here have come to grips with the fact that we are basically re-starting the rebuild. With that in mind, Zach Lowe had a great article today on the Boston Celtic culture and how they continue to overcome adversity and succeed. It really made me think as I usually dismissed Boston as a model to emulate since Billy King gifted them the most lopsided trade in history, but I realized in the last couple years that as players leave Boston and don't come close to their performance elsewhere and Boston continues to lose players to injury and the next man just steps up, that it is more than trade luck, or simply a smart coach etc. It is a plan and a culture - as much Ainge as it is Stevens. it is purposeful and business-like and un-sentimental.

Lately it has been fashionable to cite the 76ers as our model to follow, but I wonder which of the agreed upon up-and-coming teams you would like to see the Magic emulate over the next 3-4 years? Take a look at the article and then vote above.

Zach Lowe: Brad Stevens and the Celtics have a special brand of toughness

"If things are going really well in a home game, do you get caught up in that, or do you keep playing the right way?" Stevens asked in a chat with ESPN.com the day after Boston's Game 3 win in Philadelphia. "If things are going like they were in the second quarter last night [when the Sixers went on a run], do you say, 'I have a job to do and I'm going to do it, and I don't care that everyone is going nuts over this [Joel] Embiid dunk?' That is toughness. It sounds cliché, but the hardest thing to do is stay in the moment and do your job."


He told the players Hayward would be OK. But Stevens wanted to shift their focus to the remaining 79 games. He warned them: Don't use your youth as excuse, Stevens and several players recalled. "Expedite your learning curve," Stevens remembered saying. "If there's film to watch, or something you need to work on with a coach, go do it."


This is a fierce team. No one is afraid to shoot, or venture outside his proven skill set -- something almost everyone has had to do since Irving's knee surgery. They give maximum effort every second. It is a focused effort; they rarely veer out of scheme. Hit them, and they hit back -- harder. Nurturing such a strong culture while returning only four players from last season's team is an enormous challenge.

It starts with Ainge, who has a soft spot for manic competitors. All things (almost) equal, Ainge is going to take the guy who needs to get loose balls. "My staff laughs at me," Ainge told ESPN.com, "because I always gravitate to those kinds of players." He is still gushing about Aaron Craft.

Gather enough tough players and it can have an exponential effect on a team's collective toughness. They inspire each other to more intense fury. They hold everyone accountable; even brief moments of lethargy and weakness are unacceptable.


The (deserved) fawning over his stoic demeanor and play-calling genius has obscured another fundamental truth: Stevens is something of an old-school hard-ass. "If guys aren't doing their jobs," Horford said, "they just won't play."


In Boston's seventh game of the season, Shane Larkin failed to pursue a loose ball along the left sideline:

Stevens removed Larkin at the next stoppage. He didn't play again until garbage time. "I learned right away," Larkin said. "If you don't get a 50-50 ball, you are coming out."

Stevens didn't upbraid Larkin. He approached him calmly and told Larkin why he had been taken out. In evaluating players, both during games and in film sessions, Stevens is careful with language, according to coaches, players and team higher-ups. He focuses on actions: We didn't get this rebound. You should have made this rotation earlier. The criticism is never about the player's character. No one is labeled lazy or stupid or selfish. Stevens simply describes what did or did not happen, and what should happen next time.

That has gone a long way in securing buy-in, players say. They feel Stevens is with them, even as he holds them -- and himself -- to almost impossible standards. That is a hard balance to strike. It is not a show, either.

After losses, Stevens often approaches Ainge and apologizes for "blowing it," Ainge said. "He is always saying that," Ainge said. "Honestly, it's kind of like listening to players blame themselves. He's like a player. He never whines about the players, just himself."


Even private kvetching about players among coaches and front-office staff can undo a team. Rumors start. Factions develop. That hasn't happened in Boston
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Re: How to build (again) 

Post#2 » by Nemesis21 » Fri May 11, 2018 1:54 pm

Build through the draft. Don't spend a bunch of $$ on vets. Spend on a star when you can.
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Re: How to build (again) 

Post#3 » by BadMofoPimp » Fri May 11, 2018 1:56 pm

Each way can be a success. Sometimes it just comes down to a little luck and a crafty GM with solid coaching. I see teams who build through the draft and remain bottom feeders forever like the current Magic, so each way can fail you as well.
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Re: How to build (again) 

Post#4 » by Nemesis21 » Fri May 11, 2018 2:07 pm

BadMofoPimp wrote:Each way can be a success. Sometimes it just comes down to a little luck and a crafty GM with solid coaching. I see teams who build through the draft and remain bottom feeders forever like the current Magic, so each way can fail you as well.



Except we didn't build through the draft. Getting one top 3 pick in 6 years, isn't building through the draft.
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Re: How to build (again) 

Post#5 » by BadMofoPimp » Fri May 11, 2018 2:14 pm

Nemesis21 wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:Each way can be a success. Sometimes it just comes down to a little luck and a crafty GM with solid coaching. I see teams who build through the draft and remain bottom feeders forever like the current Magic, so each way can fail you as well.



Except we didn't build through the draft. Getting one top 3 pick in 6 years, isn't building through the draft.


Yes, we did build through the draft because we drafted top 10 for 6 consecutive years. Ask any Real GM, and not a single one will say that you have to have a top 3 pick to build through the draft.
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Re: How to build (again) 

Post#6 » by Nemesis21 » Fri May 11, 2018 2:18 pm

BadMofoPimp wrote:
Nemesis21 wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:Each way can be a success. Sometimes it just comes down to a little luck and a crafty GM with solid coaching. I see teams who build through the draft and remain bottom feeders forever like the current Magic, so each way can fail you as well.



Except we didn't build through the draft. Getting one top 3 pick in 6 years, isn't building through the draft.


Yes, we did build through the draft because we drafted top 10 for 6 consecutive years. Ask any Real GM, and not a single one will say that you have to have a top 3 pick to build through the draft.



Nope, it was a half ass attempt every year because your boy Martins kept getting in the way.
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Re: How to build (again) 

Post#7 » by BadMofoPimp » Fri May 11, 2018 2:55 pm

Nemesis21 wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:
Nemesis21 wrote:

Except we didn't build through the draft. Getting one top 3 pick in 6 years, isn't building through the draft.


Yes, we did build through the draft because we drafted top 10 for 6 consecutive years. Ask any Real GM, and not a single one will say that you have to have a top 3 pick to build through the draft.



Nope, it was a half ass attempt every year because your boy Martins kept getting in the way.


Fanaticism and Extreme beliefs do not always equal reality, except in your own mind.
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Re: How to build (again) 

Post#8 » by Nemesis21 » Fri May 11, 2018 3:13 pm

BadMofoPimp wrote:
Nemesis21 wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:
Yes, we did build through the draft because we drafted top 10 for 6 consecutive years. Ask any Real GM, and not a single one will say that you have to have a top 3 pick to build through the draft.



Nope, it was a half ass attempt every year because your boy Martins kept getting in the way.


Fanaticism and Extreme beliefs do not always equal reality, except in your own mind.



Being in the 10% of this forum that chooses to stay blind to what happened, is your fault.
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Re: How to build (again) 

Post#9 » by BadMofoPimp » Fri May 11, 2018 4:21 pm

Nemesis21 wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:
Nemesis21 wrote:

Nope, it was a half ass attempt every year because your boy Martins kept getting in the way.


Fanaticism and Extreme beliefs do not always equal reality, except in your own mind.



Being in the 10% of this forum that chooses to stay blind to what happened, is your fault.


True, a bad GM can really ruin an organization.

Maybe, most of us just don't understand why people think that a team must suck 5-10 years in order to get lucky just once or twice to create a good team. A solid GM with solid coaching can do so much shorter time frame.
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Re: How to build (again) 

Post#10 » by tiderulz » Fri May 11, 2018 4:21 pm

Nemesis21 wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:Each way can be a success. Sometimes it just comes down to a little luck and a crafty GM with solid coaching. I see teams who build through the draft and remain bottom feeders forever like the current Magic, so each way can fail you as well.



Except we didn't build through the draft. Getting one top 3 pick in 6 years, isn't building through the draft.

you can build thru the draft without having a top-3 pick. You just need better scouting and picks.

Klay, Curry, Green. none a top-3 pick.

and there isnt only 1 way to build a team
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Re: How to build (again) 

Post#11 » by OrlandO » Fri May 11, 2018 5:39 pm

tiderulz wrote:
Nemesis21 wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:Each way can be a success. Sometimes it just comes down to a little luck and a crafty GM with solid coaching. I see teams who build through the draft and remain bottom feeders forever like the current Magic, so each way can fail you as well.



Except we didn't build through the draft. Getting one top 3 pick in 6 years, isn't building through the draft.

you can build thru the draft without having a top-3 pick. You just need better scouting and picks.

Klay, Curry, Green. none a top-3 pick.

and there isnt only 1 way to build a team

Half the teams in the playoffs don't have a top 3 pick that they drafted... it's pretty inexcusable that we couldn't build a proper team. We had plenty of opportunity to do so.
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Re: How to build (again) 

Post#12 » by Nemesis21 » Fri May 11, 2018 5:43 pm

OrlandO wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
Nemesis21 wrote:

Except we didn't build through the draft. Getting one top 3 pick in 6 years, isn't building through the draft.

you can build thru the draft without having a top-3 pick. You just need better scouting and picks.

Klay, Curry, Green. none a top-3 pick.

and there isnt only 1 way to build a team

Half the teams in the playoffs don't have a top 3 pick that they drafted... it's pretty inexcusable that we couldn't build a proper team. We had plenty of opportunity to do so.



Correct we did. But we also had two people rush the rebuild multiple times.
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Re: How to build (again) 

Post#13 » by OrlandO » Fri May 11, 2018 5:50 pm

Nemesis21 wrote:
OrlandO wrote:
tiderulz wrote:you can build thru the draft without having a top-3 pick. You just need better scouting and picks.

Klay, Curry, Green. none a top-3 pick.

and there isnt only 1 way to build a team

Half the teams in the playoffs don't have a top 3 pick that they drafted... it's pretty inexcusable that we couldn't build a proper team. We had plenty of opportunity to do so.



Correct we did. But we also had two people rush the rebuild multiple times.

You can blame Martins all you want doesn't change the fact that Hennigan failed under any type of pressure and had a huge hand in blunders over his five years. He's a scout, not a GM.... and everything we saw reflected this. The biggest knock on Martins shouldn't be that he might have pressured Hennigan to make a couple decisions... it should be that he hired unqualified Hennigan in the first place.
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Re: How to build (again) 

Post#14 » by Blue_and_Whte » Fri May 11, 2018 6:32 pm

We’re not going to successfully model after anybody unless we plan on cloning them.
We don’t have Ainge or Stevens. We have WeHam and whatever coach we hire, and they’ll build the team based on how they want to build it.


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Re: How to build (again) 

Post#15 » by MasterGMer » Fri May 11, 2018 7:22 pm

Or like Houston Rockets:
never tank and remain competitive
stay relevant (fringe Playoff team) cumulative assets
great at drafting talent not top picks (Chase Budinger, Aaron Brooks...)
trade afterward (traded for James Harden)
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Re: How to build (again) 

Post#16 » by BadMofoPimp » Fri May 11, 2018 8:02 pm

Nemesis21 wrote:
OrlandO wrote:
tiderulz wrote:you can build thru the draft without having a top-3 pick. You just need better scouting and picks.

Klay, Curry, Green. none a top-3 pick.

and there isnt only 1 way to build a team

Half the teams in the playoffs don't have a top 3 pick that they drafted... it's pretty inexcusable that we couldn't build a proper team. We had plenty of opportunity to do so.



Correct we did. But we also had two people rush the rebuild multiple times.


5 years is way more than enough time to rebuild. Most teams do it in 2-3 years. Henny had plenty of time.
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Re: How to build (again) 

Post#17 » by VFX » Fri May 11, 2018 8:09 pm

The Celtics might have culture and coaching, but they also took risks by moving on from decent players and making business decisions on the roster for the future. It would be nice to take a page from their book on that.

That and completely robbing Brooklyn from their top draft picks.
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Re: How to build (again) 

Post#18 » by MartinsIzAfraud » Fri May 11, 2018 8:32 pm

Nemesis21 wrote:
OrlandO wrote:
tiderulz wrote:you can build thru the draft without having a top-3 pick. You just need better scouting and picks.

Klay, Curry, Green. none a top-3 pick.

and there isnt only 1 way to build a team

Half the teams in the playoffs don't have a top 3 pick that they drafted... it's pretty inexcusable that we couldn't build a proper team. We had plenty of opportunity to do so.



Correct we did. But we also had two people rush the rebuild multiple times.


continued to take players who needed years to grow offensively as well.
A scoring guard.. never heard of one. :roll:
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Re: How to build (again) 

Post#19 » by Skin » Fri May 11, 2018 8:32 pm

We have to do the opposite of Hennigan. Not fail in the draft. Not fail in free agency. Not fail in trades.

That's it, and we'll be good.
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Re: How to build (again) 

Post#20 » by The Real Dalic » Fri May 11, 2018 8:37 pm

Whatever gets us back to contention. I really would rather not go the lazy and terrible way the 76ers went, great GMing and coaching and culture shouldn't be half-assed until we find "the guy".

However, if we choose to go that route, we need to commit to it and see it all the way through. No more half measures on any and all plans. No more panicking and panic trades. Pick a path, and stick with it.
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