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Trae

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Re: Trae 

Post#261 » by pepe1991 » Fri May 25, 2018 6:32 pm

Skin wrote:
Patrick1978 wrote:
tiderulz wrote:1,2 and 3 can be coached away. if his shooting translates along with his passing, #5 becomes a moot point. #4 will be the question.

you keep forgetting, he is 19 and is not a finished product.

Pepe is really annoying with his trae young hate

It's all good. Be cool Patrick... Pepe is either just trollin' or he really believes his words. :roll:

I enjoy it though. Would be pretty boring if we all liked Young. Keep it comin' Pep! :nod:


i'll be 100% honest, every game Tataum plays like a stud i feel like idiot 8-)
but with every Lonzo's jumpshot i regain trust into my ability to evaluate hhaha

btw tiderulz i don't troll ( most of the time ) and only times over two years i ever insulted somebody was last summer - Payton fans and i had one ugly debate with pennytoshaq and i apologized later because i felt like it was too personal for no good reason . Unlike last summer this forum is less toxic, at least i feel that way.

overtime edit : i'll give one huge credit to Young, he has one of best floaters i have seen from young players. It's Conley level good.
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Re: Trae 

Post#262 » by tiderulz » Fri May 25, 2018 6:50 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
Skin wrote:
Patrick1978 wrote:Pepe is really annoying with his trae young hate

It's all good. Be cool Patrick... Pepe is either just trollin' or he really believes his words. :roll:

I enjoy it though. Would be pretty boring if we all liked Young. Keep it comin' Pep! :nod:


i'll be 100% honest, every game Tataum plays like a stud i feel like idiot 8-)
but with every Lonzo's jumpshot i regain trust into my ability to evaluate hhaha

btw tiderulz i don't troll ( most of the time ) and only times over two years i ever insulted somebody was last summer - Payton fans and i had one ugly debate with pennytoshaq and i apologized later because i felt like it was too personal for no good reason . Unlike last summer this forum is less toxic, at least i feel that way.

overtime edit : i'll give one huge credit to Young, he has one of best floaters i have seen from young players. It's Conley level good.

i dont feel like you are trolling. I do feel you have a lot of unnecessary hate for Young.

it was just the whole encouraging of trolls in general i dont like.
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Re: Trae 

Post#263 » by OrlandO » Sat May 26, 2018 1:03 am

doct3r dr3 wrote:
DeanOnDraft wrote:Is Trae Young Getting Overhyped?
Image

Nope, he earned every bit of the hype. Doesn't mean he's a guarantee at the next level, but he balled out as a freshman and the potential is there to be a really great player in the NBA.


When he faced good defenses his production fell off a cliff. Compare Trae’s per 40 stats vs. top 60 defenses to Steph Curry’s 5 career NCAA tournament games:

Code: Select all

               Pts    eFG%   AST   TOV   Opp DRtg
Steph          33.6   56.3%   3.6   1.9   89.5
Trae           27.7   47.7%   7.9   6.3   95.8


People commonly lament the attention Trae drew from defenses, but Steph got the same attention vs much tougher defenses in the tournament and he shined.

These splits were a signal that Steph had some cerebral advantage to translate his goodness to higher levels while Trae did the opposite. It would be a good idea to stop making this comp forever.



Let's be fair and compare their freshman years...

Curry vs .500+ teams: 20.4 ppg on 17.4fga/9.6 3pta (41% fg, 33% 3pt), 2.2 apg, 2.1 tov (10 games)
Young vs .500+ teams: 28.5 ppg on 19.9 fga/10.8 3pta ( 42% fg, 37% 3pt), 8 apg, 5.7 tov (23 games)

Curry vs Top 100 RPI: 19.6 ppg on 16.6 fga/10.4 3pta (40% fg, 27% 3pt), 2.8 apg, 4.4 tov (5 games)
Young vs Top 100 RPI: 28.3 ppg on 20 fga/10.7 3pta (41% fg, 36% 3pt), 7.7 apg, 5.7 tov (23 games)

Curry vs AP Top 25: 17.5 ppg on 15 fga/10 3pta (37% fg, 30% 3pt), 1.5 apg, 3.5 tov (2 games)
Young vs AP Top 25: 28.4 ppg on 19.3 fga/10.3 3pta (42% fg, 37% 3pt) 8 apg, 5.7 tov (10 games)

Curry vs A10/ACC/Big12/Big10/Pac12: 18.3 ppg on 14.3 fga/7.8 3pta (43% fg, 33% 3pt), 3.3 apg, 3.8 tov (6 games)
Young A10/AAC/Big12/Big10/Pac12/SEC: 27.7 ppg on 19.8 fga/10.6 3pta (41% fg, 36% 3pt), 8 apg, 5.5 tov (26 games)

Curry NCAA Tournament: 30 ppg on 21 fga/14 3pta (43% fg, 36% 3pt), 3 apg, 4 tov (1 game)
Young NCAA Tournament: 28 ppg on 18 fga/9 3pta (50% fg, 33% 3pt), 7 apg, 6 tov (1 game)


And if you really want to compare Curry's final year stats you might be surprised...
Curry 3rd Yr vs .500+: 26.9 ppg on 21.9 fga/10.4 3pta (40% fg, 32% 3pt), 5.7 apg, 4.9 tov (15 games)
Curry 3rd Yr vs Top 100 RPI: 26.5 ppg on 23.8 fga/11.6 3pta (36% fg, 28% 3pt), 5.6 apg, 5.6 tov (10 games)
Curry 3rd Yr vs AP Top 25: 26.5 ppg on 25 fga/12 3pta (33% fg, 23% 3pt), 5.2 apg, 5.8 tov (4 games)
Curry 3rd Yr v AAC/ACC/Big12/Big10/SEC: 31.5 ppg on 26 fga/12.3 3pta (38% fg, 30% 3pt), 5.2 apg, 5.8 tov (6 games)
Curry 3rd yr NIT (not NCAA) Tourny: 29 ppg on 23 fga/10 3pta (44% fg, 45% 3pt), 4.5 apg, 6.5 tov (2 games)

Not so easy to be a high usage scoring PG against better conference competition even with two extra years experience.


Will he perform better in a smaller role with less of an offensive burden?

He played AAU with the Porter bros Michael and Jontay, and did not show clearly better efficiency in a more limited offensive role. He also shot poorly playing for Team USA in FIBA u18 championship in 2016, as well as the Nike Global Challenge in 2015.

Pretty sure he's improved a lot since 2015-16.

His efficiency was good considering all the tough shots he took as a high usage iso type of player who commanded double teams. He basically showcased himself as an NBA ready star and people want to knock him because he didn't play it safe and put up more efficient numbers? He showed he can produce with really high usage, a huge portion of his shots were NBA range threes, 75% of his shots were off the dribble, he only got the ball coming off screens on 2.5% of his possessions, he wasn't afraid to put his passing skills on display, he made good use of the "giant killer" (floater), and it took 2/3 of the season before teams were finally able to slow him down by ignoring his teammates and throwing everything at him. If he played it safe people wouldn't know what he was truly capable of and they'd use the size argument against him even more.

He won't have quite as high usage in the NBA, but it's still going to be really high if his scoring/passing skills translate. Shooters are always more efficient on catch and shoots, so any decrease in usage and increase in playing a little more off ball and using more screens will likely help his efficiency. FYI he averaged 2.0 Points Per Possession on open catch and shoots.

This is a guy who practices taking shots off bad passes...

Read on Twitter


And people think he's going to be worse if he turns some of his tough attempts into much easier attempts? Ok..

Oklahoma’s defense declined from 39th best to 85th best returning almost everybody after adding Trae.

Not quite the same team. Young replaced their second best defender (a senior) and their defensive starting PF was also replaced by an offensive player. Of course their defense would slip... and yet that bad roster won 7 more games.

But the vast majority on his effect came on Brady Manek– a 3* recruit who was much better than expected and happened to specialize in offense. Once you give most of the credit for Manek’s performance to Manek, Trae’s effect on his teammates is only slightly positive.

Their freshman starting stretch 4 looked better than expected, starting SG's fg% bumped up 10%, starting C's fg% up 7%, and four other players who averaged at least 10 mpg also improved their fg% by at least 2%. So... basically everyone worth a damn to that team looked better thanks to Young's scoring/passing presence.
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Re: Trae 

Post#264 » by Audi » Sat May 26, 2018 2:43 am

Was just thinking - of PG’s with somewhat comparable combine measurables in height/wingspan that went in the top 10 (as Trae is projected to go) - how many were total busts? Just from random memory - feel free to add!
__________w/o shoes__ wingspan
Trae (6th?):___6’ 1/2”__6’3”
Kemba (9th):_ 5’11.5”__6’3.5”
Conley (4th):_ 5’11.75__6’5.75”
Irving (1st):__ 6’1.75___6’4”
Curry (7th):__ 6’2”_____6’3.5”
Paul (4th):___ 5’11.75”_6’4.25”
Fox (5th):____6’2”_____6’6.5”
DSJr (9th):__<6’2”_____6’5”
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Re: Trae 

Post#265 » by Darth Magic » Sat May 26, 2018 6:25 pm

Audi wrote:Was just thinking - of PG’s with somewhat comparable combine measurables in height/wingspan that went in the top 10 (as Trae is projected to go) - how many were total busts? Just from random memory - feel free to add!

w/o shoes wingspan
Trae (6th?): 6’ 1/2” 6’3”
Kemba (9th): 5’11.5” 6’3.5”
Conley (4th): 5’11.75 6’5.75”
Irving (1st): 6’1.75 6’4”
Curry (7th): 6’2” 6’3.5”
Paul (4th): 5’11.75” 6’4.25”
Fox (5th): 6’2” 6’6.5”
DSJr (9th): <6’2” 6’5”


I honestly believe that the undersized guard bust scenario is over stated. The superlong athlete bust list is far longer.
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Re: Trae 

Post#266 » by gde684 » Tue May 29, 2018 6:05 am

Darth Magic wrote:
Audi wrote:Was just thinking - of PG’s with somewhat comparable combine measurables in height/wingspan that went in the top 10 (as Trae is projected to go) - how many were total busts? Just from random memory - feel free to add!

w/o shoes wingspan
Trae (6th?): 6’ 1/2” 6’3”
Kemba (9th): 5’11.5” 6’3.5”
Conley (4th): 5’11.75 6’5.75”
Irving (1st): 6’1.75 6’4”
Curry (7th): 6’2” 6’3.5”
Paul (4th): 5’11.75” 6’4.25”
Fox (5th): 6’2” 6’6.5”
DSJr (9th): <6’2” 6’5”


I honestly believe that the undersized guard bust scenario is over stated. The superlong athlete bust list is far longer.

Great point. I see Trae young as way more of a sure thing than most. Dude can ball I don’t know how it could be denied if you’ve watched his full games and aren’t just trying to pick apart numbers. His efficiency will rise with a more reasonable role on offense but he could eventually grow into one of the highest usage players in the league. Those are the kind of players that could one day give you a shot at a title and I don’t see anyone else at 6 with that upside


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Re: Trae 

Post#267 » by pepe1991 » Tue May 29, 2018 6:59 am

Darth Magic wrote:
Audi wrote:Was just thinking - of PG’s with somewhat comparable combine measurables in height/wingspan that went in the top 10 (as Trae is projected to go) - how many were total busts? Just from random memory - feel free to add!

w/o shoes wingspan
Trae (6th?): 6’ 1/2” 6’3”
Kemba (9th): 5’11.5” 6’3.5”
Conley (4th): 5’11.75 6’5.75”
Irving (1st): 6’1.75 6’4”
Curry (7th): 6’2” 6’3.5”
Paul (4th): 5’11.75” 6’4.25”
Fox (5th): 6’2” 6’6.5”
DSJr (9th): <6’2” 6’5”


I honestly believe that the undersized guard bust scenario is over stated. The superlong athlete bust list is far longer.


Because odds of making it to nba being shorter than 6'0 is one in 1 200 000 000. In USA.
Odds of making to nba being 6'1- 6'3 is 1 in 100 000.

So small players who make it to nba have to be really really,really elite to get there. Basically "natural" selection is in act there.
Where, if you are 6'4- 6'7 you have 1 : 8000 odds to play in nba, not to mention that 6'8- 6'11 guys have 1:200 odds.

Not to mention that almost ever 15 guy over 7'0, by stats, ends up playing in nba and every 7th ends up playing basketball on some pro level.

Away from facts, i belive must "athletic" players ends up being busts because they rely heavily on their athletics in youth levels, being that much more stronger,faster and more athletic than others, and when they go to nba, their athletics, compared to other freaks- make no difference and they pretty much built whole their game around outrunning and outjumping people.
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Re: Trae 

Post#268 » by tiderulz » Tue May 29, 2018 11:21 am

pepe1991 wrote:
Darth Magic wrote:
Audi wrote:Was just thinking - of PG’s with somewhat comparable combine measurables in height/wingspan that went in the top 10 (as Trae is projected to go) - how many were total busts? Just from random memory - feel free to add!

w/o shoes wingspan
Trae (6th?): 6’ 1/2” 6’3”
Kemba (9th): 5’11.5” 6’3.5”
Conley (4th): 5’11.75 6’5.75”
Irving (1st): 6’1.75 6’4”
Curry (7th): 6’2” 6’3.5”
Paul (4th): 5’11.75” 6’4.25”
Fox (5th): 6’2” 6’6.5”
DSJr (9th): <6’2” 6’5”


I honestly believe that the undersized guard bust scenario is over stated. The superlong athlete bust list is far longer.


Because odds of making it to nba being shorter than 6'0 is one in 1 200 000 000. In USA.
Odds of making to nba being 6'1- 6'3 is 1 in 100 000.

So small players who make it to nba have to be really really,really elite to get there. Basically "natural" selection is in act there.
Where, if you are 6'4- 6'7 you have 1 : 8000 odds to play in nba, not to mention that 6'8- 6'11 guys have 1:200 odds.

Not to mention that almost ever 15 guy over 7'0, by stats, ends up playing in nba and every 7th ends up playing basketball on some pro level.

Away from facts, i belive must "athletic" players ends up being busts because they rely heavily on their athletics in youth levels, being that much more stronger,faster and more athletic than others, and when they go to nba, their athletics, compared to other freaks- make no difference and they pretty much built whole their game around outrunning and outjumping people.

where are you getting these facts?
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Re: Trae 

Post#269 » by pepe1991 » Tue May 29, 2018 11:28 am

tiderulz wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Darth Magic wrote:
I honestly believe that the undersized guard bust scenario is over stated. The superlong athlete bust list is far longer.


Because odds of making it to nba being shorter than 6'0 is one in 1 200 000 000. In USA.
Odds of making to nba being 6'1- 6'3 is 1 in 100 000.

So small players who make it to nba have to be really really,really elite to get there. Basically "natural" selection is in act there.
Where, if you are 6'4- 6'7 you have 1 : 8000 odds to play in nba, not to mention that 6'8- 6'11 guys have 1:200 odds.

Not to mention that almost ever 15 guy over 7'0, by stats, ends up playing in nba and every 7th ends up playing basketball on some pro level.

Away from facts, i belive must "athletic" players ends up being busts because they rely heavily on their athletics in youth levels, being that much more stronger,faster and more athletic than others, and when they go to nba, their athletics, compared to other freaks- make no difference and they pretty much built whole their game around outrunning and outjumping people.

where are you getting these facts?


https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/11/03/sunday-review/so-you-want-to-play-pro-basketball.html

new york times
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Re: Trae 

Post#270 » by BadMofoPimp » Tue May 29, 2018 11:38 am

Audi wrote:Was just thinking - of PG’s with somewhat comparable combine measurables in height/wingspan that went in the top 10 (as Trae is projected to go) - how many were total busts? Just from random memory - feel free to add!
__________w/o shoes__ wingspan
Trae (6th?):___6’ 1/2”__6’3”
Kemba (9th):_ 5’11.5”__6’3.5”
Conley (4th):_ 5’11.75__6’5.75”
Irving (1st):__ 6’1.75___6’4”
Curry (7th):__ 6’2”_____6’3.5”
Paul (4th):___ 5’11.75”_6’4.25”
Fox (5th):____6’2”_____6’6.5”
DSJr (9th):__<6’2”_____6’5”


Conley must be wearing 6" Platform shoes on the basketball court!
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Re: Trae 

Post#271 » by tiderulz » Tue May 29, 2018 11:58 am

pepe1991 wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Because odds of making it to nba being shorter than 6'0 is one in 1 200 000 000. In USA.
Odds of making to nba being 6'1- 6'3 is 1 in 100 000.

So small players who make it to nba have to be really really,really elite to get there. Basically "natural" selection is in act there.
Where, if you are 6'4- 6'7 you have 1 : 8000 odds to play in nba, not to mention that 6'8- 6'11 guys have 1:200 odds.

Not to mention that almost ever 15 guy over 7'0, by stats, ends up playing in nba and every 7th ends up playing basketball on some pro level.

Away from facts, i belive must "athletic" players ends up being busts because they rely heavily on their athletics in youth levels, being that much more stronger,faster and more athletic than others, and when they go to nba, their athletics, compared to other freaks- make no difference and they pretty much built whole their game around outrunning and outjumping people.

where are you getting these facts?


https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/11/03/sunday-review/so-you-want-to-play-pro-basketball.html

new york times

1st, an opinion piece without hard data calls into question a little. secondly, they only use US height data, when the NBA is a global talent pool. the odds would not be significantly, but would be a bit harder.
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Re: Trae 

Post#272 » by tiderulz » Tue May 29, 2018 11:59 am

BadMofoPimp wrote:
Audi wrote:Was just thinking - of PG’s with somewhat comparable combine measurables in height/wingspan that went in the top 10 (as Trae is projected to go) - how many were total busts? Just from random memory - feel free to add!
__________w/o shoes__ wingspan
Trae (6th?):___6’ 1/2”__6’3”
Kemba (9th):_ 5’11.5”__6’3.5”
Conley (4th):_ 5’11.75__6’5.75”
Irving (1st):__ 6’1.75___6’4”
Curry (7th):__ 6’2”_____6’3.5”
Paul (4th):___ 5’11.75”_6’4.25”
Fox (5th):____6’2”_____6’6.5”
DSJr (9th):__<6’2”_____6’5”


Conley must be wearing 6" Platform shoes on the basketball court!

not sure why anyone lists height without shoes, as no one plays barefoot.
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Re: Trae 

Post#273 » by pepe1991 » Tue May 29, 2018 12:38 pm

tiderulz wrote:

1st, an opinion piece without hard data calls into question a little. secondly, they only use US height data, when the NBA is a global talent pool. the odds would not be significantly, but would be a bit harder.


you have more detailed here but it's not sorted by size

http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/research/estimated-probability-competing-professional-athletics
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Re: Trae 

Post#274 » by Darth Magic » Tue May 29, 2018 1:21 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
Darth Magic wrote:
Audi wrote:Was just thinking - of PG’s with somewhat comparable combine measurables in height/wingspan that went in the top 10 (as Trae is projected to go) - how many were total busts? Just from random memory - feel free to add!

w/o shoes wingspan
Trae (6th?): 6’ 1/2” 6’3”
Kemba (9th): 5’11.5” 6’3.5”
Conley (4th): 5’11.75 6’5.75”
Irving (1st): 6’1.75 6’4”
Curry (7th): 6’2” 6’3.5”
Paul (4th): 5’11.75” 6’4.25”
Fox (5th): 6’2” 6’6.5”
DSJr (9th): <6’2” 6’5”


I honestly believe that the undersized guard bust scenario is over stated. The superlong athlete bust list is far longer.


Because odds of making it to nba being shorter than 6'0 is one in 1 200 000 000. In USA.
Odds of making to nba being 6'1- 6'3 is 1 in 100 000.

So small players who make it to nba have to be really really,really elite to get there. Basically "natural" selection is in act there.
Where, if you are 6'4- 6'7 you have 1 : 8000 odds to play in nba, not to mention that 6'8- 6'11 guys have 1:200 odds.

Not to mention that almost ever 15 guy over 7'0, by stats, ends up playing in nba and every 7th ends up playing basketball on some pro level.

Away from facts, i belive must "athletic" players ends up being busts because they rely heavily on their athletics in youth levels, being that much more stronger,faster and more athletic than others, and when they go to nba, their athletics, compared to other freaks- make no difference and they pretty much built whole their game around outrunning and outjumping people.


I've always said, give me skill over size and athleticism every day of the week at the top of the draft. It's Skill plus athleticism, followed by skill, then size and athleticism.
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Re: Trae 

Post#275 » by Knightro » Tue May 29, 2018 1:30 pm

Trae Young came in at 6'2" in shoes and 178 lbs at the combine. Curry was 6'3" in shoes and 181 lbs when he did his combine and he was two full years older.

Young doesn't have ideal size, but he's not so small that it's unworkable. There's no reason whatsoever to think he won't be able to add muscle and strength when he gets on an NBA weight program and reworks his diet.

If he takes care of his body like so many guys do once they hit the NBA, he'll gain 10 good pounds and not be so slight.

A guy like Darren Collison weighed just 166 lbs at the combine and is now listed at 185, ya know?
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Re: Trae 

Post#276 » by ZeusIsLoose » Tue May 29, 2018 1:38 pm

i really don't understand the "small size" stance on trae. the dude was a freshmen. has plenty of time to fill out.
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Re: Trae 

Post#277 » by Shady Franchise » Tue May 29, 2018 3:25 pm

In a guards league, I don't see how this kid will NOT give this organization some much needed publicity and buzz.
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Re: Trae 

Post#278 » by MagicFrenchie » Tue May 29, 2018 3:41 pm

Since when a 6.2 guard is not big enough? Except the recent love for tall point guards , I don't see any probleme to have a normal sized point guard who can light it up from every position

I mean does Michael carter williams, exum have proven that being tall is a guarantee to succed in the pG position? :noway:
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Re: Trae 

Post#279 » by J_Magic » Tue May 29, 2018 4:15 pm

Hopefully Weltman focuses on current NBA offensive skill rather than length.

Trae Young really looks like a sure thing. It will suck if he gets taken before we pick.
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Re: Trae 

Post#280 » by Nyce_1 » Tue May 29, 2018 5:01 pm

J_Magic wrote:Hopefully Weltman focuses on current NBA offensive skill rather than length.

Trae Young really looks like a sure thing. It will suck if he gets taken before we pick.

no such thing as a sure thing. All of these guys could bust.

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