Free Agency July 1!!!!!!!

[MartinsIzAfraud]

Who cares about IT? Lol signing him would have been nice, but also makes us a treadmill team.

at least we’d be on the treadmill....

ill take that over the never-ending tank.....whats cracking me up is how the sales rep are planning to sell season tickets.....how are they going to spin the literal okie dokey the front office is trying to pull....its pretty much the same roster from the "evaluation year"

yup.. people need to stop thinking about Kyrie and Kemba etc etc and think more about Dinwiddie and Delon Wright. We're not going to go from lotto team for years to now all of a sudden attracting top FA because we have 3 potential players in AG, JI and Bamba. Yes we will have Cap Space but so will a ton of other teams with a clearer identity and much much better roster spots.

We're not just 1 player away from making the playoffs. We're more like 2-3 players away and seeing solid improvement from BIG. Yeah lebron left the East but let's be honest that's not going to be a big deal. It'll just help teams like Celtics/76ers/Toronto to now being able to make the next step into the Finals. We're a struggling team with 3 POTENTIAL players who are surrounded by expiring contracts, g leaguers and more role players.

TLDR-> We're further away than people really want to acknowledge and having Cap Space doesn't mean we're an attractive option.

[gov1718]

With IT being passed over by this FO, it tells me they want to tank again for another top 6 pick. It would have cost the Magic nothing to sign him and be better next season, but FO are staying with their plan of sucking again next season.


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[Nemesis21]

at least we’d be on the treadmill....

ill take that over the never-ending tank.....whats cracking me up is how the sales rep are planning to sell season tickets.....how are they going to spin the literal okie dokey the front office is trying to pull....its pretty much the same roster from the "evaluation year"

yup.. people need to stop thinking about Kyrie and Kemba etc etc and think more about Dinwiddie and Delon Wright. We're not going to go from lotto team for years to now all of a sudden attracting top FA because we have 3 potential players in AG, JI and Bamba. Yes we will have Cap Space but so will a ton of other teams with a clearer identity and much much better roster spots.

We're not just 1 player away from making the playoffs. We're more like 2-3 players away and seeing solid improvement from BIG. Yeah lebron left the East but let's be honest that's not going to be a big deal. It'll just help teams like Celtics/76ers/Toronto to now being able to make the next step into the Finals. We're a struggling team with 3 POTENTIAL players who are surrounded by expiring contracts, g leaguers and more role players.

TLDR-> We're further away than people really want to acknowledge and having Cap Space doesn't mean we're an attractive option.

Excellent post this is a true realist right here. Knightro and ZuesIsLoose, take notes!! Especially on the last sentence above!

[Blue_and_Whte]

I agree. Far from perfect, but he keeps quiet. Shoots the 3 well, and is scoring almost 18 PPG which this team needs right now. To add to your point about being 25, he fit's this team's timeline, and shooters age better than players who rely more on athleticism ( Korver, JJ). In 4 years I'd like to think of him as a stronger, more versatile JJ Redick.

Bench him for a G Leaguer and see if he “keeps quiet”.


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Now why on Earth would you do that? Just to get a rise out of him?

Wouldn’t be the first time it happened on this team.


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[Blue_and_Whte]

I'll never understand why people dislike Evan so much? You guys don't like when somebody can make open 3 or ?

I like Evan. It's the whole bromance/buddy ball thing that's annoying. They're not a good enough combo to be it. I definitely want Evan back, he needs to be with Isaac/AG/Bamba and a semi good starting PG. Vuc on the other hand, will probably start and (hopefully) be moved by the deadline.

Sorry but do you watch other teams play? What you call buddy ball is running the offense through your best players. Every team does it. It’s not buddy ball it’s basketball.


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[Tarheel]

I'll never understand why people dislike Evan so much? You guys don't like when somebody can make open 3 or ?

I like Evan. It's the whole bromance/buddy ball thing that's annoying. They're not a good enough combo to be it. I definitely want Evan back, he needs to be with Isaac/AG/Bamba and a semi good starting PG. Vuc on the other hand, will probably start and (hopefully) be moved by the deadline.

Sorry but do you watch other teams play? What you call buddy ball is running the offense through your best players. Every team does it. It’s not buddy ball it’s basketball.


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And therein lies the problem. Just because it's the best we can do doesn't mean it's good enough.

Running the offense through Vuc and Evan is not going to create winning basketball or allow room for the younger players to develop. It serves the team no purpose and puts a (pretty low) ceiling on it.

That's why everyone is frustrated with it and the team needs to move on from one of them (Vuc). It also magnifies the need for a high quality floor general PG.

[Popsicle1228]

I'm pretty annoyed by the IT news. The Magic seriously couldn't offer the guy that kind of contract? That's about as low risk/high reward type of signing as you can get. Who cares if it doesn't work out at that point, it's a one year deal for the minimum! However, if it worked out, you get a potentially great scoring Point Guard which this team desperately needs, and you also get a lot of people excited about the Magic again with a signing like that.

I know missing out on an injured IT shouldn't frustrate me as much as it does, but I look at the roster right now and see how little it has changed after last year's "evaluation" season, and pisses me off. We get to look forward to a season of Vuc taking minutes from Bamba. We get another year of buddy ball. Also, a starting Point Guard is a backup, and his backups are probably better suited being 3rd string players.

I just don't get it and I'm so sick of having a Front Office that is fine with sitting on their hands and being mediocre. If they want to play for a high draft pick, then do that, trade the vets and let the young guys play. Be a bad team, but give the young guys all the playing time they can get and have them improve. However, if you want to improve and play for the playoffs, then why not take a shot at a guy like IT? Outside of drafting Issac and Bamba, which who wouldn't have picked those two given the chance, I'm so disappointed in Weltman and Hammond. I really hope I'm wrong, but I really don't want another year of getting a mid-lottery pick. Tank or don't, just please stop doing nothing!

Heres a thought... what if the team somehow, amazingly, had more information on IT's health status than you did? Hard to believe i know, but lets pretend. And imagine if this info told them that IT was damaged goods. Would you still be wanting them to take a shot at him?

Heres another fun one. Lets imagine again that the team had more info that you (crazy i know) about IT's expectations if he were to sign in Orlando, and lets pretend that IT said some pretty concerning stuff as far as how he views his role in the team, which was massively at odds to the way the team viewed his role and would jeapordise the growth of our young team. Would you still be wanting them to take a shot at him?

Putting your condescending tone aside, I agree that Weltmon probably didn't like what he saw regarding IT's hip and did not want to promise IT a lead role on the team. Which is what I would expect the IT camp to want so that he can re-establish his value for a larger 2019-2020 contract.

However, I still find is disappointing given the state of our current PG position that we didn't at least take a flyer on him at the vet min for a year. Despite having no knowledge of the Magic's overall vision for this team. It would seem to be very lose risk move to sign IT for one year.

[MagicMatic]

ill take that over the never-ending tank.....whats cracking me up is how the sales rep are planning to sell season tickets.....how are they going to spin the literal okie dokey the front office is trying to pull....its pretty much the same roster from the "evaluation year"

yup.. people need to stop thinking about Kyrie and Kemba etc etc and think more about Dinwiddie and Delon Wright. We're not going to go from lotto team for years to now all of a sudden attracting top FA because we have 3 potential players in AG, JI and Bamba. Yes we will have Cap Space but so will a ton of other teams with a clearer identity and much much better roster spots.

We're not just 1 player away from making the playoffs. We're more like 2-3 players away and seeing solid improvement from BIG. Yeah lebron left the East but let's be honest that's not going to be a big deal. It'll just help teams like Celtics/76ers/Toronto to now being able to make the next step into the Finals. We're a struggling team with 3 POTENTIAL players who are surrounded by expiring contracts, g leaguers and more role players.

TLDR-> We're further away than people really want to acknowledge and having Cap Space doesn't mean we're an attractive option.

Excellent post this is a true realist right here. Knightro and ZuesIsLoose, take notes!! Especially on the last sentence above!

I know this sounds crazy, but at this point in their careers I would rather have Dinwiddie/ Wright. Not from a talent perspective, but from a growth one. Kemba/ Kyrie are at the point in their careers that they want results now. Orlando isn’t in the position even with players of that caliber to truly compete. They should be focusing on potential, growth, and longevity.

[MartinsIzAfraud]

A Top 5 MVP candidate from one year ago couldn't get more than a 1 year $2m deal?? That screams that his medical records are more serious than we might think. I can't fathom a different reason. Even if he's a head case or people are worried he won't be back to what he once was, if he's half the player he once was he's worth the MLE for a year or two as a flyer. The fact teams in desperate need of a PG (*cough* us *cough*) speaks volumes.

Feel bad for the guy though. Went from being on the brink of a max contract and making $150m over 5 years to $2m for a single season. I'll be rooting for him just because I'd like to see him get a good contract next year.

I'm sure he could get more than 2M but he'll likely be playing for a playoff team, closer to his hometown of Washington and already has played for Mike Mallone (Sacramento 13-14 season) where IT had one of his best years. It makes a ton of sense, its a cheap low risk move for a team like Denver who needed a backup G to help Murray/Harris and Barton.

[Knightro]

O/U at 28.5 wins this year

Easy over if they stay moderately healthy.

Am I being too optimistic here?

The Magic won 25 games last year. I just don't see any way they're worse when you factor everything that happened last year.

I've shared this number several times on this board before, but the Magic lost 216 games out of their opening night 9-man rotation to injuries. That's an average of 24 games per rotation player.

A "normal" amount of injuries for a team's 9-man rotation is around 90-100, so the Magic were more than double unlucky with injuries.

Give the Magic a "normal" amount of injuries and it's absolutely reasonable to think they would have won at least 33-34 last year. Vegas had them pegged at 33.5 right before last season. I don't think it's outrageous whatsoever to say injuries cost them 8-10 victories.

Beyond injuries, the case could also be made that the Magic pretty much tanked after the all-star break last year. They had just a .280 winning percentage after the break (worse than the 1st half).

With Steve Clifford at the helm, I expect the Magic to play hard the entire season. Clifford's Charlotte teams played better after the all-star break in 4 out of 5 years. This might end up being much to the chagrin of some fans if the Magic are sitting with the 4th worst record at the break and rally to finish with the 11th pick, but that's been Clifford's M.O. in the past.

Beyond the injuries and lack of tanking, the Magic's front office absolutely believes Steve Clifford is a better basketball coach than Frank Vogel. Is that accurate? It's certainly something we're going to have to wait and see. One thing I know is true is that Clifford has a system he believes in and always gets his players to execute that system. Is it fair to debate the merits of that system? Absolutely. The Hornets only made the playoffs 2 out of 5 years with Clifford at the helm, but you can't deny that he immediately gets his players to do exactly what he wants them to do.

1. The Magic are going to be a great rebounding team.
2. The Magic are going to be an extremely low turnover team.
3. The Magic are not going to put the other team on the FT line.

Two of Clifford's big mantras are not making mistakes and not giving up easy points. Two of the easiest ways for an offense to score are in transition and after offensive rebounds. If you don't turn the ball over, the other team won't get out in transition as often. If you crash the defensive glass hard, the other team won't get many second chance points.

As much as I liked the Vogel hire, the game evolved RAPIDLY from the time he was a coach in Indiana til now. I dramatically underestimated how difficult it was going to be for him to adjust to those evolutions (and adjust to not having all-star talent). I never felt like Frank really adapted and even when the team was winning early last season, it always felt like he was searching for answers or trying to implement a system that he THOUGHT he should be running based on NBA trends instead of a system he actually believed in.

So let's add it all up.

They won 25.

Injuries cost them 8-10 wins
Tanking cost them 1-2 wins
Coaching cost them 1-2 wins
Natural improvement from Gordon and Isaac plus Bamba replacing Biyombo is worth 1-2 wins

If they get smashed by injuries again, then all bets are off. But it certainly feels like they're going to win somewhere around 35-38 games in 18-19.

[zaymon]

One thing which is not certain and will impact win total is minutes distribution. If we start Bamba Gordon Isaac we are propably a lottery team. What is Weltmans plan? I seriously dont know, he have so many options to choose from. I think we have enough capable veterans to make playoffs if we really want to, but that is not the goal we are aiming for

[Nemesis21]

O/U at 28.5 wins this year

Easy over if they stay moderately healthy.

Am I being too optimistic here?

Yes, very much so.

[UCF]

Please get back on topic. Personal attacks are not acceptable on this forum.

[MagicFan101]

I like Evan. It's the whole bromance/buddy ball thing that's annoying. They're not a good enough combo to be it. I definitely want Evan back, he needs to be with Isaac/AG/Bamba and a semi good starting PG. Vuc on the other hand, will probably start and (hopefully) be moved by the deadline.

Sorry but do you watch other teams play? What you call buddy ball is running the offense through your best players. Every team does it. It’s not buddy ball it’s basketball.


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And therein lies the problem. Just because it's the best we can do doesn't mean it's good enough.

Running the offense through Vuc and Evan is not going to create winning basketball or allow room for the younger players to develop. It serves the team no purpose and puts a (pretty low) ceiling on it.

That's why everyone is frustrated with it and the team needs to move on from one of them (Vuc). It also magnifies the need for a high quality floor general PG.

I’m pretty sure our record these past few shows it isn’t “good enough.” I’m not sure that is needed to be pointed out to anyone

But with their long term contracts, we couldn’t do much. Henny gave out those contracts and bet on Evan > Dipo. That is why he is no longer employed here. But what else could we do once those mistakes were made? Play more of Biz?

Now Vuc is an expiring contract. One way or another, the buddy-ball era is about to be over.

[Viper1500]

With IT being passed over by this FO, it tells me they want to tank again for another top 6 pick. It would have cost the Magic nothing to sign him and be better next season, but FO are staying with their plan of sucking again next season.


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[drsd]

If they get smashed by injuries again, then all bets are off. But it certainly feels like they're going to win somewhere around 35-38 games in 18-19.

I love this post. I agree that a reasonably healthy Magic roster should cap well over 35 wins.

I want to add to this though. Fournier playing in position and having a steady, albeit unspectacular PG could lead to another win or two. Further, what can Ross actually offer? Let's call that another 2 wins.

Your 38 wins then could sound like 42 wins.


GO MAGIC!

[Blue_and_Whte]

O/U at 28.5 wins this year

Easy over if they stay moderately healthy.

Am I being too optimistic here?

The Magic won 25 games last year. I just don't see any way they're worse when you factor everything that happened last year.

I've shared this number several times on this board before, but the Magic lost 216 games out of their opening night 9-man rotation to injuries. That's an average of 24 games per rotation player.

A "normal" amount of injuries for a team's 9-man rotation is around 90-100, so the Magic were more than double unlucky with injuries.

Give the Magic a "normal" amount of injuries and it's absolutely reasonable to think they would have won at least 33-34 last year. Vegas had them pegged at 33.5 right before last season. I don't think it's outrageous whatsoever to say injuries cost them 8-10 victories.

Beyond injuries, the case could also be made that the Magic pretty much tanked after the all-star break last year. They had just a .280 winning percentage after the break (worse than the 1st half).

With Steve Clifford at the helm, I expect the Magic to play hard the entire season. Clifford's Charlotte teams played better after the all-star break in 4 out of 5 years. This might end up being much to the chagrin of some fans if the Magic are sitting with the 4th worst record at the break and rally to finish with the 11th pick, but that's been Clifford's M.O. in the past.

Beyond the injuries and lack of tanking, the Magic's front office absolutely believes Steve Clifford is a better basketball coach than Frank Vogel. Is that accurate? It's certainly something we're going to have to wait and see. One thing I know is true is that Clifford has a system he believes in and always gets his players to execute that system. Is it fair to debate the merits of that system? Absolutely. The Hornets only made the playoffs 2 out of 5 years with Clifford at the helm, but you can't deny that he immediately gets his players to do exactly what he wants them to do.

1. The Magic are going to be a great rebounding team.
2. The Magic are going to be an extremely low turnover team.
3. The Magic are not going to put the other team on the FT line.

Two of Clifford's big mantras are not making mistakes and not giving up easy points. Two of the easiest ways for an offense to score are in transition and after offensive rebounds. If you don't turn the ball over, the other team won't get out in transition as often. If you crash the defensive glass hard, the other team won't get many second chance points.

As much as I liked the Vogel hire, the game evolved RAPIDLY from the time he was a coach in Indiana til now. I dramatically underestimated how difficult it was going to be for him to adjust to those evolutions (and adjust to not having all-star talent). I never felt like Frank really adapted and even when the team was winning early last season, it always felt like he was searching for answers or trying to implement a system that he THOUGHT he should be running based on NBA trends instead of a system he actually believed in.

So let's add it all up.

They won 25.

Injuries cost them 8-10 wins
Tanking cost them 1-2 wins
Coaching cost them 1-2 wins
Natural improvement from Gordon and Isaac plus Bamba replacing Biyombo is worth 1-2 wins

If they get smashed by injuries again, then all bets are off. But it certainly feels like they're going to win somewhere around 35-38 games in 18-19.

Excellent post. To add, they can reach that 35-38 win total if they keep some of our core guys to start the season or bring in better talent.

Since we only really have two guys that can create offense for themselves, I would assume that any moves involving Vuc or Evan or both would bring back better scorers, otherwise we aren’t seeing the spacing that AG and likely Isaac need.

Unless of course they’re committed to tanking and settle for minimal returns, but again I find it hard to believe that they would sign AG and not put him in the best position to utilize his talents, which is sharing the court with scorers.

[Blue_and_Whte]

Sorry but do you watch other teams play? What you call buddy ball is running the offense through your best players. Every team does it. It’s not buddy ball it’s basketball.


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And therein lies the problem. Just because it's the best we can do doesn't mean it's good enough.

Running the offense through Vuc and Evan is not going to create winning basketball or allow room for the younger players to develop. It serves the team no purpose and puts a (pretty low) ceiling on it.

That's why everyone is frustrated with it and the team needs to move on from one of them (Vuc). It also magnifies the need for a high quality floor general PG.

I’m pretty sure our record these past few shows it isn’t “good enough.” I’m not sure that is needed to be pointed out to anyone

But with their long term contracts, we couldn’t do much. Henny gave out those contracts and bet on Evan > Dipo. That is why he is no longer employed here. But what else could we do once those mistakes were made? Play more of Biz?

Now Vuc is an expiring contract. One way or another, the buddy-ball era is about to be over.

until we get two different scorers that the offense will primarily go through. Will that be called “buddy ball” ?


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[MartinsIzAfraud]

Easy over if they stay moderately healthy.

Am I being too optimistic here?

The Magic won 25 games last year. I just don't see any way they're worse when you factor everything that happened last year.

I've shared this number several times on this board before, but the Magic lost 216 games out of their opening night 9-man rotation to injuries. That's an average of 24 games per rotation player.

A "normal" amount of injuries for a team's 9-man rotation is around 90-100, so the Magic were more than double unlucky with injuries.

Give the Magic a "normal" amount of injuries and it's absolutely reasonable to think they would have won at least 33-34 last year. Vegas had them pegged at 33.5 right before last season. I don't think it's outrageous whatsoever to say injuries cost them 8-10 victories.

Beyond injuries, the case could also be made that the Magic pretty much tanked after the all-star break last year. They had just a .280 winning percentage after the break (worse than the 1st half).

With Steve Clifford at the helm, I expect the Magic to play hard the entire season. Clifford's Charlotte teams played better after the all-star break in 4 out of 5 years. This might end up being much to the chagrin of some fans if the Magic are sitting with the 4th worst record at the break and rally to finish with the 11th pick, but that's been Clifford's M.O. in the past.

Beyond the injuries and lack of tanking, the Magic's front office absolutely believes Steve Clifford is a better basketball coach than Frank Vogel. Is that accurate? It's certainly something we're going to have to wait and see. One thing I know is true is that Clifford has a system he believes in and always gets his players to execute that system. Is it fair to debate the merits of that system? Absolutely. The Hornets only made the playoffs 2 out of 5 years with Clifford at the helm, but you can't deny that he immediately gets his players to do exactly what he wants them to do.

1. The Magic are going to be a great rebounding team.
2. The Magic are going to be an extremely low turnover team.
3. The Magic are not going to put the other team on the FT line.

Two of Clifford's big mantras are not making mistakes and not giving up easy points. Two of the easiest ways for an offense to score are in transition and after offensive rebounds. If you don't turn the ball over, the other team won't get out in transition as often. If you crash the defensive glass hard, the other team won't get many second chance points.

As much as I liked the Vogel hire, the game evolved RAPIDLY from the time he was a coach in Indiana til now. I dramatically underestimated how difficult it was going to be for him to adjust to those evolutions (and adjust to not having all-star talent). I never felt like Frank really adapted and even when the team was winning early last season, it always felt like he was searching for answers or trying to implement a system that he THOUGHT he should be running based on NBA trends instead of a system he actually believed in.

So let's add it all up.

They won 25.

Injuries cost them 8-10 wins
Tanking cost them 1-2 wins
Coaching cost them 1-2 wins

Natural improvement from Gordon and Isaac plus Bamba replacing Biyombo is worth 1-2 wins

If they get smashed by injuries again, then all bets are off. But it certainly feels like they're going to win somewhere around 35-38 games in 18-19.

Excellent post. To add, they can reach that 35-38 win total if they keep some of our core guys to start the season or bring in better talent.

Since we only really have two guys that can create offense for themselves, I would assume that any moves involving Vuc or Evan or both would bring back better scorers, otherwise we aren’t seeing the spacing that AG and likely Isaac need.

Unless of course they’re committed to tanking and settle for minimal returns, but again I find it hard to believe that they would sign AG and not put him in the best position to utilize his talents, which is sharing the court with scorers.

I think it's pretty obvious Magic will not get anything close to value for Vuc or TRoss so bringing back better scorers is out of the picture. Magic didn't resign AG to see how he fits with 2 expiring contracts, they brought him back to pair with Isaac and Bamba as a young core. Holding onto Vuc/TRoss for the whole year will do more harm then moving them for picks/young players come deadline. Just like people said we have to trade EP even if it was for a lousy 2nd you can't lose an asset (even if its a small asset) for nothing.

Imagine not trading Vuc/Ross winning 35 games and picking say 11th vs getting a future pick/young player and picking 5th.

[Knightro]

Imagine not trading Vuc/Ross winning 35 games and picking say 11th vs getting a future pick/young player and picking 5th.

Considering there's only like 25 games left after the trade deadline, even if if they punt Vucevic and Ross into someone's cap space for 2nd round picks at the deadline, I highly doubt it will change their final record all that much.

With just 25 games to go, dumping both of those guys for nothing (and really the Magic would have to take something back because it doesn't seem like anyone's going to have cap space to absorb a 12.75M dollar player for free at the deadline), you're still only talking about maybe 2-3 wins/losses?