Official Speculation Thread ‘17-18’: XVII: MLE Shopping Edition

[RickB-Orlando]

Wiggins contract is bad and advanced stats absolutely hate him. Doesn't play defense well, can't shoot free throws that well, or threes. Scores a decent amount (with volume) and can get to the line. Would rather take AG 100 out of 100 times.

Yeah I agree here. Wiggins is Another player overrated because he’s not on this team. Give me AG all day.


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To be clear - in a vacuum, AG is fine. It's pairing him up with Jonathan Isaac that is likely to be the problem. We already know that trying AG at the 3 is a non-starter.

If we can deal him pretty much straight up for a young, potentially explosive scorer that is a natural 3, with minimal *actual* impact on our cap situation...well, I think you have to do it.

[SOUL]

If we can deal him pretty much straight up for a young, potentially explosive scorer that is a natural 3, with minimal *actual* impact on our cap situation...well, I think you have to do it.

Hypothetically, yes. But I think assuming Wiggins is that guy is a bit of a stretch. He's shown no better scoring instinct that Gordon has, and that's from somebody who was projected to be a much better offensive player at this level.

Joe Harris was more efficient and valuable as a SF last year than Wiggins!

[PennytoShaq]

It’s rare people factor in that Vogel never used AG correctly at the SF position anyway. He said he wanted to make him into Paul George. Well, no. Paul George is an ISO player who nail 3s and is a go to scorer. That is not what AG is.

What if the Magic played him at forward on one side and JI on the other? And they used AG’s ability to rim run and move well off the ball to set him up off screen and rolls and run some pin downs for him to get him open 3s sometimes? And maybe if he is showing he has the advantage in a match up that night, they keep feeding him since we have all seen him abuse weak matchups in the past for 30 or 40 points.

You don’t HAVE to play JI or AG like a traditional SF. AG is going to need to be working hard without the ball in his hands and that way he will get a lot more easy buckets. JI just needs to work on his outside shot and take advantage of mismatches when he gets them, while he develops.

Vogel never used AG as a roll man. He never leveraged that when AG started the season killing it from 3, which was crazy. Teams started going out there to guard him and then he would just get the ball and have to dribble and iso.

There is no rule the your forwards have to be the ISO guys on the team. Neither Rashard or Hedo were really those guys either. Rashard was a knockdown shooter and Hedo was a guy who could initiate from the wing, but they were not exactly elite ball handlers or shot creators.

Just saying this - Before we assume that AG will never be able to play next to Isaac, lets at least see how Clifford tries to use them and if it will work, before trading AG and getting an awful contract back while thinking it’s a great deal for us.

[fendilim]

I would argue that 22 = 22 and any additional professional training at the same age is advantage AG.

Also, keep in mind Marion was fortunate to be in a great situation with an established Suns roster lead by prime Jason Kidd. I can only assume AG 2017-18 numbers would have been considerable improved if teamed with prime Jason Kidd. Even with the roster advantages, Marion and AG stats are comparable at age 22. Advantage AG.

I maintain AG has a more diverse offensive game than Marion and this year it will show in an increased apg numbers as his play making is the next facet to take a leap forward. Advantage AG.

I don't have a big issue with the forecast of AG as #3 option on a contender and I don't view that as a negative, what a #3 guy he would be. I would just say that while that is possible and maybe even probable that he tops out as a #3 option, that there is still a notable percentage chance of higher upside with AG due to his inherent combination of elite: size, length, athleticism, bball iq, high motor, and being a hard worker. I for one have zero interest in trading AG, firstly because of that upside potential, secondly because of what a stud he would be as a #2/3 option. AG will be a game changer. We need game changers.

Yes, ag has advantage being a 22 year old with already 4 years of nba training under his belt. But i it says a lot about his development if you are still comparing him only to a rookie/sophomore.

Not only that, Marion was already a 17ppg 11rpg guy at the age of 22, to go along with 1.7spg and 1.4bpg.

He put up these numbers for a 51-31 team, in only his second year.

I am comparing a 22 year old AG to a 22 year old Marion. Seems pretty straight forward.

Marion also was running with hall of famer Jason Kidd in his prime that year. Would you not expect Jason Kidd to have a positive impact on a 22 year Shawn Marions offensive statistics?

marion actually didnt run with kidd during his first allstar appearance in his third year.

Also, like someone pointed out, His defensive awareness isnt even comparable to marion. What made marion special is his spg and bpg. Gordon doesnt even show any potential to be that. Gordon is more like a better rebounding Clifford Robinson. Not Marion.

Also, 1 year of nba training is a lot better than 1 year of ncaa basketball. So its not even close to compare 4 years of nba to 1 year of nba. lets not kid ourselves.

[MagicMatic]

Just saying this - Before we assume that AG will never be able to play next to Isaac, lets at least see how Clifford tries to use them and if it will work, before trading AG and getting an awful contract back while thinking it’s a great deal for us.

AG can definitely play next to Isaac offensively. In order for that to be effective with the roster, he has to be able to provide abilities he hasn’t shown as of yet consistently. 3pt %, better distributing - a/to %, ability to create offensively effectively, and getting to the line more often. Those are big ”if’s” IMO, but they are accomplishable. Do I believe he will be that player? No

So, would I rather we trade AG? Of course. Would I want to do it for a bad return? No. Giving him another shot with Isaac and Bamba should be on the agenda. He at least deserves that.

[fendilim]

It’s rare people factor in that Vogel never used AG correctly at the SF position anyway. He said he wanted to make him into Paul George. Well, no. Paul George is an ISO player who nail 3s and is a go to scorer. That is not what AG is.

What if the Magic played him at forward on one side and JI on the other? And they used AG’s ability to rim run and move well off the ball to set him up off screen and rolls and run some pin downs for him to get him open 3s sometimes? And maybe if he is showing he has the advantage in a match up that night, they keep feeding him since we have all seen him abuse weak matchups in the past for 30 or 40 points.

You don’t HAVE to play JI or AG like a traditional SF. AG is going to need to be working hard without the ball in his hands and that way he will get a lot more easy buckets. JI just needs to work on his outside shot and take advantage of mismatches when he gets them, while he develops.

Vogel never used AG as a roll man. He never leveraged that when AG started the season killing it from 3, which was crazy. Teams started going out there to guard him and then he would just get the ball and have to dribble and iso.

There is no rule the your forwards have to be the ISO guys on the team. Neither Rashard or Hedo were really those guys either. Rashard was a knockdown shooter and Hedo was a guy who could initiate from the wing, but they were not exactly elite ball handlers or shot creators.

Just saying this - Before we assume that AG will never be able to play next to Isaac, lets at least see how Clifford tries to use them and if it will work, before trading AG and getting an awful contract back while thinking it’s a great deal for us.

What??? Rashard and Hedo are way more advanced offensively than AG.

[RickB-Orlando]

If we can deal him pretty much straight up for a young, potentially explosive scorer that is a natural 3, with minimal *actual* impact on our cap situation...well, I think you have to do it.

Hypothetically, yes. But I think assuming Wiggins is that guy is a bit of a stretch. He's shown no better scoring instinct that Gordon has, and that's from somebody who was projected to be a much better offensive player at this level.

Joe Harris was more efficient and valuable as a SF last year than Wiggins!

Better shooting on significantly lower usage. I don't agree he was more valuable.

I think Wiggins productivity took a predictable dip playing next to Jimmy Butler.

I still think he's got plenty of upside. Again, I like AG, but I suspect he's not a fit. If Wiggins or a similar player comes available, I'm open to trading AG for them.

[woosah]

I think Skin compared AG to Josh Smith in one of these threads. I sort of frowned when i first saw it, but as i thought about it I could see why. Athletic and talented but not the best iq and seeming to never come into that place people projected him. We are investing in AG and hoping he will come into his full potential and overcome his weaknesses to excel to heights Josh did not.

[PennytoShaq]

It’s rare people factor in that Vogel never used AG correctly at the SF position anyway. He said he wanted to make him into Paul George. Well, no. Paul George is an ISO player who nail 3s and is a go to scorer. That is not what AG is.

What if the Magic played him at forward on one side and JI on the other? And they used AG’s ability to rim run and move well off the ball to set him up off screen and rolls and run some pin downs for him to get him open 3s sometimes? And maybe if he is showing he has the advantage in a match up that night, they keep feeding him since we have all seen him abuse weak matchups in the past for 30 or 40 points.

You don’t HAVE to play JI or AG like a traditional SF. AG is going to need to be working hard without the ball in his hands and that way he will get a lot more easy buckets. JI just needs to work on his outside shot and take advantage of mismatches when he gets them, while he develops.

Vogel never used AG as a roll man. He never leveraged that when AG started the season killing it from 3, which was crazy. Teams started going out there to guard him and then he would just get the ball and have to dribble and iso.

There is no rule the your forwards have to be the ISO guys on the team. Neither Rashard or Hedo were really those guys either. Rashard was a knockdown shooter and Hedo was a guy who could initiate from the wing, but they were not exactly elite ball handlers or shot creators.

Just saying this - Before we assume that AG will never be able to play next to Isaac, lets at least see how Clifford tries to use them and if it will work, before trading AG and getting an awful contract back while thinking it’s a great deal for us.

What??? Rashard and Hedo are way more advanced offensively than AG.

Try again. Read slower. I never once said AG was as advanced as they were.

[OrlandO]

The stats do not support this claim:
Bball reference LINK

..

stats can be amazing sometimes. And how individual stats HAVE to be part of team stats. How can anyone watch Thompson play and say his play is worth 17 more wins than Gordons on offense? OWS 23.9 to 6.4.

That's why pure stats based arguments fall flat a lot of times. People can make it look how they want it to. DeAndre Jordan has like a high 120s ORTG and that's only because he takes efficient shots on relatively low attempts. Makes him look like a god.

To be fair that's bball ref's ORTG... the nba's stats site had Jordan at 106 ORTG this season. I have a lot more confidence in the NBA's rating since they at least had Biyombo rated below 100 ORTG for 6 of his 7 seasons (even with Raps it only got a bump to 104 ORTG)... bball ref had him at 115+ for three consecutive years, which is laughable.

[fendilim]

It’s rare people factor in that Vogel never used AG correctly at the SF position anyway. He said he wanted to make him into Paul George. Well, no. Paul George is an ISO player who nail 3s and is a go to scorer. That is not what AG is.

What if the Magic played him at forward on one side and JI on the other? And they used AG’s ability to rim run and move well off the ball to set him up off screen and rolls and run some pin downs for him to get him open 3s sometimes? And maybe if he is showing he has the advantage in a match up that night, they keep feeding him since we have all seen him abuse weak matchups in the past for 30 or 40 points.

You don’t HAVE to play JI or AG like a traditional SF. AG is going to need to be working hard without the ball in his hands and that way he will get a lot more easy buckets. JI just needs to work on his outside shot and take advantage of mismatches when he gets them, while he develops.

Vogel never used AG as a roll man. He never leveraged that when AG started the season killing it from 3, which was crazy. Teams started going out there to guard him and then he would just get the ball and have to dribble and iso.

There is no rule the your forwards have to be the ISO guys on the team. Neither Rashard or Hedo were really those guys either. Rashard was a knockdown shooter and Hedo was a guy who could initiate from the wing, but they were not exactly elite ball handlers or shot creators.

Just saying this - Before we assume that AG will never be able to play next to Isaac, lets at least see how Clifford tries to use them and if it will work, before trading AG and getting an awful contract back while thinking it’s a great deal for us.

What??? Rashard and Hedo are way more advanced offensively than AG.

Try again. Read slower. I never once said AG was as advanced as they were.

yes. But you’re acting like Rashard and Hedo were limited offensive players.

Rashard was a good one on one player, even during his sonics days. We would even put him in iso situations when Dwight was on the bench. Hedo was a great playmaker and a ball distributor.

Both of them can create shots way better than AG. And btw AG has struggled to develop that in 4 years in the league.

[spinedoc]

If we can deal him pretty much straight up for a young, potentially explosive scorer that is a natural 3, with minimal *actual* impact on our cap situation...well, I think you have to do it.

Hypothetically, yes. But I think assuming Wiggins is that guy is a bit of a stretch. He's shown no better scoring instinct that Gordon has, and that's from somebody who was projected to be a much better offensive player at this level.

Joe Harris was more efficient and valuable as a SF last year than Wiggins!

So what happened then? Do you think its because of the player or the environment, or both?

[bargnanimvp]

Wiggins isn't a good basketball player. Why does this forum have an obsession with bad players?

[OrlMagic05]

Gordon is Tristan Thompson part deux. I like the kid, but let's be honest with ourselves.

This has to be one of the worst player comparisons ever.
I feel like this is a trolling comment to get some attention.

Seven years ago, fourth pick in the draft. A young, athletic, full of potential guy, that doesn't really do anything well but run the floor and hustle. Poof. Aaron Gordon. I don't need attention man, just giving my opinion. I don't care if you disagree with me, but at least give me a better comparison then. Tell me what you think AG will be.......

They are COMPLETELY different players. Tristan was never touted as an athletic player. I dont think there is a good comparison for AG, because he is a different type of player than most, but comparing him to Tristan Thompson is straight up disrespectful.

[PennytoShaq]

What??? Rashard and Hedo are way more advanced offensively than AG.

Try again. Read slower. I never once said AG was as advanced as they were.

yes. But you’re acting like Rashard and Hedo were limited offensive players.

Rashard was a good one on one player, even during his sonics days. We would even put him in iso situations when Dwight was on the bench. Hedo was a great playmaker and a ball distributor.

Both of them can create shots way better than AG. And btw AG has struggled to develop that in 4 years in the league.

I am not at all. When we made our run, we had one guy who could really create off the dribble in Jameer. It was not Rashard game at all anymore. Dwight was so dominant that it did not matter. We then traded for Vince because Otis knew we needed a creator but it never worked out. The team was face up defended in the playoffs and after losing to ATL, SVG literally said “I have no one who can create off the dribble and they exposed it”.

The 2 points:

Forwards do not necessarily have to be iso guys. That’s really all I am saying here. We have some guys in the backcourt who can do that a bit.

I think AG was misused by Vogel. I’d like to see how Clifford uses him before we just trade the guy away.

[spinedoc]

What??? Rashard and Hedo are way more advanced offensively than AG.

Try again. Read slower. I never once said AG was as advanced as they were.

yes. But you’re acting like Rashard and Hedo were limited offensive players.

Rashard was a good one on one player, even during his sonics days. We would even put him in iso situations when Dwight was on the bench. Hedo was a great playmaker and a ball distributor.

Both of them can create shots way better than AG. And btw AG has struggled to develop that in 4 years in the league.

I can still recall all the arguments on here about making Hedo our defacto pg. Our problems at the position goes back a long way. I desperately miss Shard too, but we had some big disagreements on where to play him as well. Most hated him at the three, and he was light years ahead of AG with his handles.

[SOUL]

I think AG has better handles/is more comfortable with the ball than Rashard ever was, but Rashard on offense was able to either back people up on the block or play on the outside, which made him very valuable at either SF/PF with Turk out there. We need to utilize AG more for his dribbling/passing in the offense and make him want to play as a creator more too. I think Isaac can be just as valuable doing that as well, which would be nice.

We have played a very selfish brand of offense the last few seasons, the only people wanting to pass consistently being Payton and Vucevic, and even they went rogue at times.

[PennytoShaq]

I think AG has better handles/is more comfortable with the ball than Rashard ever was, but Rashard on offense was able to either back people up on the block or play on the outside, which made him very valuable at either SF/PF with Turk out there. We need to utilize AG more for his dribbling/passing in the offense and make him want to play as a creator more too. I think Isaac can be just as valuable doing that as well, which would be nice.

We have played a very selfish brand of offense the last few seasons, the only people wanting to pass consistently being Payton and Vucevic, and even they went rogue at times.

AG absolutely does. I am not even sure how someone could argue otherwise.

Moving Shard to the 4 was a genius move by SVG. It added 3 productive years to his career and made us into a force.

If anyone can get something out of the Isaac/IG Forward tandem, it is Clifford. If he can’t do it, ok. But I’d like to see what he is thinking.

I am willing to bet he will at least use AG a lot better than we have seen so far.

[fendilim]

I think AG has better handles/is more comfortable with the ball than Rashard ever was, but Rashard on offense was able to either back people up on the block or play on the outside, which made him very valuable at either SF/PF with Turk out there. We need to utilize AG more for his dribbling/passing in the offense and make him want to play as a creator more too. I think Isaac can be just as valuable doing that as well, which would be nice.

We have played a very selfish brand of offense the last few seasons, the only people wanting to pass consistently being Payton and Vucevic, and even they went rogue at times.

[fendilim]

Try again. Read slower. I never once said AG was as advanced as they were.

yes. But you’re acting like Rashard and Hedo were limited offensive players.

Rashard was a good one on one player, even during his sonics days. We would even put him in iso situations when Dwight was on the bench. Hedo was a great playmaker and a ball distributor.

Both of them can create shots way better than AG. And btw AG has struggled to develop that in 4 years in the league.

I am not at all. When we made our run, we had one guy who could really create off the dribble in Jameer. It was not Rashard game at all anymore. Dwight was so dominant that it did not matter. We then traded for Vince because Otis knew we needed a creator but it never worked out. The team was face up defended in the playoffs and after losing to ATL, SVG literally said “I have no one who can create off the dribble and they exposed it”.

The 2 points:

Forwards do not necessarily have to be iso guys. That’s really all I am saying here. We have some guys in the backcourt who can do that a bit.

I think AG was misused by Vogel. I’d like to see how Clifford uses him before we just trade the guy away.

Lol most of our lethal offense started with Turkoglu pnr with dwight. And jameer wasnt our only off the dribble player. You should go look at those game tapes, we ran rashard and hedo on post ups too. Gordon has not shown any potential to do that.