Magic Vs. Utah Game Thread (7/12/18)

[ChosenSavior]

Caupain has been really really bad tonight.

[ORL_on_FIRE]

Turn Caupains two way into a one way out of here.

[Howard Mass]

Well, it sucks The Magic are eliminated.

Nice to see Kristen Ledlow on the play by play though.

[Xatticus]

Well... we've been begging for our franchise to commit to the tank for quite a while and they finally obliged by tanking in this tournament. Baby steps.

[OrlDave]

Well, it sucks The Magic are eliminated.

Nice to see Kristen Ledlow on the play by play though.

Yeah I thought she did a nice job considering how bad the game was.

[fendilim]

Caupain has been really really bad tonight.

Cau Pain, No Gain.

[npiper17]

Iwundu looks like he’s gotten worse compared to last season. Frazier can’t make a three if his life depended on it. Will Jackson be the one of the three to make it?

[ChosenSavior]

I thought Birch gave great minutes out there despite playing injured. Some better guard play and he would've had a monster night. I actually like Frazier and thought he defended very well throughout this summer league. His offense and shot selection definitely need work. He does actually remind me of a hobo eating beans out of a rusted can version of Kawhi Leonard at SDSU. There is promise but he will really need to work on his shooting (mastering the corner 3 would be a great start) in order to carve out a niche in the NBA.

It really sucked that Briscoe got hurt and could not play in this game. Caupain's floor game is very lacking. Iwundu's problem is that he does not have good basketball IQ on either end. The effort and measurables are solid, but the skill and talent are not there. He is definitely in danger of being cut.

[pepe1991]

4-28 for 3. and i thought my pickup games are ugly to watch

Last hope for Iwundu is that he can play non-streach PF , something like dumbed down Carroll.
Fraizer shoots 11-40 and 0-11 for 3 i think ? Forget splash bros, brick bros are here

[KillMonger]

Well... we've been begging for our franchise to commit to the tank for quite a while and they finally obliged by tanking in this tournament. Baby steps.

Yeah but this upcoming draft class........ Is kinda meh for me that whole draft class looks flattened out to me.

Sent from my [Trap Phone] using RealGM mobile app also its about to be evaluation year part 2

[spinedoc]

Can someone get this ups delivery guy off the screen? I wanna watch basketball.

Karl was much more entertaining than that game, and more important for everyone to see. He wasn't the most eloquent, or even the most articulate, but he was saying the same thing I've been saying for years. It boils down to less basketball analytics and more time in the weight room. He even said its hard for him to watch sometimes because its gotten so bad. Its all about the dunk and the three, chicks dig the long ball I suppose. The game has regressed and will come back one day. We are not teaching fundamentals of this game anymore, at least not the important ones. I could have listened to him opine on the subject for much longer. The game reminded me of what parents do with their kids, let them run off some steam so they could put them to bed on time.

[j-ragg]

Wonder if we’ll sit our guys again for rest for this game. It’s months until their next games, we need them fresh!

[Catledge]

Can someone get this ups delivery guy off the screen? I wanna watch basketball.

Karl was much more entertaining than that game, and more important for everyone to see. He wasn't the most eloquent, or even the most articulate, but he was saying the same thing I've been saying for years. It boils down to less basketball analytics and more time in the weight room. He even said its hard for him to watch sometimes because its gotten so bad. Its all about the dunk and the three, chicks dig the long ball I suppose. The game has regressed and will come back one day. We are not teaching fundamentals of this game anymore, at least not the important ones. I could have listened to him opine on the subject for much longer. The game reminded me of what parents do with their kids, let them run off some steam so they could put them to bed on time.

I respectfully disagree on these two points. I think players these days train harder than ever, and I think that the three ball is not just another trend like Showtime giving way to the Bad Boys. I think analytics revealed the efficiency value of the three ball, and that value will remain as long as the three point line stays where it is.

More to the point, I don't understand why the current style is so upsetting to people. Even with my favorite team being hellishly awful for what seems like an eternity, I've found plenty of enjoyment in watching the NBA the last several years. And to the extent that I have complaints, it's about super teams, not analytics.

[Knightro]

I think analytics revealed the efficiency value of the three ball, and that value will remain as long as the three point line stays where it is.

Ding ding ding.

34% from 3 > 50% from two.

The very best midranger shooters this past ago, guys like Durant, Middleton, Klay and Kyrie, all shot about 49% from midrange.

You only need to shoot 33% from three for it to statistically be a better shot than any midrange jumper.

Sure there’s something to be said about a wide open midrange v. a contested three, but at the end of the day math is math.

[Catledge]

I think analytics revealed the efficiency value of the three ball, and that value will remain as long as the three point line stays where it is.

Ding ding ding.

34% from 3 > 50% from two.

The very best midranger shooters this past ago, guys like Durant, Middleton, Klay and Kyrie, all shot about 49% from midrange.

You only need to shoot 33% from three for it to statistically be a better shot than any midrange jumper.

Sure there’s something to be said about a wide open midrange v. a contested three, but at the end of the day math is math.

There is also something to be said for a guy who can always rise up for the long 2 when the defense isn't giving you anything else, as is often the case in fourth quarters and in the playoffs.

But I don't think the three-point genie is going back in the bottle unless they change the distance of the shot.

[MagicStarwipe]

Watching teams just chuck 3 pointers does get a little boring as an observer.

[spinedoc]

Can someone get this ups delivery guy off the screen? I wanna watch basketball.

Karl was much more entertaining than that game, and more important for everyone to see. He wasn't the most eloquent, or even the most articulate, but he was saying the same thing I've been saying for years. It boils down to less basketball analytics and more time in the weight room. He even said its hard for him to watch sometimes because its gotten so bad. Its all about the dunk and the three, chicks dig the long ball I suppose. The game has regressed and will come back one day. We are not teaching fundamentals of this game anymore, at least not the important ones. I could have listened to him opine on the subject for much longer. The game reminded me of what parents do with their kids, let them run off some steam so they could put them to bed on time.

I respectfully disagree on these two points. I think players these days train harder than ever, and I think that the three ball is not just another trend like Showtime giving way to the Bad Boys. I think analytics revealed the efficiency value of the three ball, and that value will remain as long as the three point line stays where it is.

More to the point, I don't understand why the current style is so upsetting to people. Even with my favorite team being hellishly awful for what seems like an eternity, I've found plenty of enjoyment in watching the NBA the last several years. And to the extent that I have complaints, it's about super teams, not analytics.

I don't think its a training issue either, I believe its a teaching thing. Because of this math, we have gotten lazy and scrapped a big part of the game in my estimation. I get the fact of getting that extra point, its like a free throw. It certainly can be important, but its being relied upon too much. We have gotten away from fundamentals, and worked hard on getting everyone's three point percentage up instead. It used to be about getting to your spots. They were your spots because its where you felt more comfortable, practiced it religiously, and became very repetitious with a higher degree of success. I suppose you can do the same for the three point shot of course, but the fact remains that the shot should be easier the closer you are to the basket. Now, some had signature shots that others can't repeat, like Kareem. For some, the three point shot is that as well, but it shouldn't be universal.

Also, you can't take someone's FG% from 10-15ft out and compare it directily to someone's three point percentage. There are way too many variables to consider. Its too simple and misses my point. A few off the top of my head are: was the shot contested, was it shot off balanced, did the player shoot in rhythm, was it forced, late in the shot clock, is that one of the players spots, or did the defense carry him too far out, was it a decent pick if its a pick and pop, was there a matchup problem or a height difference. See my point? My experiments ask a lot more questions. So, it then becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. We therefore teach them from a young age to play this way, forget about the letters from B to Y, just focus on A and Z. It is slowly destroying basketball. Its lazy and often boring to watch. The same goes for the travel leagues Karl was talking about, all they want to do is dunk. So, I'm either shooting from way out here, or my ass in heading to the rack. Boooooooring. Time to coach them up, let them know there is whole bunch more to this sport. Its like those squiggly lined pictures, you're just not going to get me to see the dolphin jumping out of the water, lol.

[Catledge]

I don't think its a training issue either, I believe its a teaching thing. Because of this math, we have gotten lazy and scrapped a big part of the game in my estimation. I get the fact of getting that extra point, its like a free throw. It certainly can be important, but its being relied upon too much. We have gotten away from fundamentals, and worked hard on getting everyone's three point percentage up instead. It used to be about getting to your spots. They were your spots because its where you felt more comfortable, practiced it religiously, and became very repetitious with a higher degree of success. I suppose you can do the same for the three point shot of course, but the fact remains that the shot should be easier the closer you are to the basket. Now, some had signature shots that others can't repeat, like Kareem. For some, the three point shot is that as well, but it shouldn't be universal.

Also, you can't take someone's FG% from 10-15ft out and compare it directily to someone's three point percentage. There are way too many variables to consider. Its too simple and misses my point. A few off the top of my head are: was the shot contested, was it shot off balanced, did the player shoot in rhythm, was it forced, late in the shot clock, is that one of the players spots, or did the defense carry him too far out, was it a decent pick if its a pick and pop, was there a matchup problem or a height difference. See my point? My experiments ask a lot more questions. So, it then becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. We therefore teach them from a young age to play this way, forget about the letters from B to Y, just focus on A and Z. It is slowly destroying basketball. Its lazy and often boring to watch. The same goes for the travel leagues Karl was talking about, all they want to do is dunk. So, I'm either shooting from way out here, or my ass in heading to the rack. Boooooooring. Time to coach them up, let them know there is whole bunch more to this sport. Its like those squiggly lined pictures, you're just not going to get me to see the dolphin jumping out of the water, lol.

I don't find the shooting any less entertaining than I found Jordan's Bulls or the Bad Boys Pistons or Hakeem's Rockets, but I guess we can just agree to disagree on the entertainment value (though it does sound a little like you the three point line may be standing on your lawn...).

I do think, however, that the league us unlikely to cycle away from the 3-point shot unless there are significant rule changes. It seems very unlikely that current trends are a function of laziness and crowd-following. It seems much more likely that current trends are happening because teams that get most of their offense from the arc, the paint, and the free throw line have been the ones winning the most in recent years.

Maybe if the league brought back the hand check, that would make it harder to penetrate, which would force teams to go into the post and/or settle for the midrange more. There would be less dribble penetration, less fouls, less driving and kicking to open shooters, more scores in the 90s, more traditional PFs. But as long as the rules favor dribble penetration, the post the and midrange shot seem likely to remain smallish parts of the game.

[spinedoc]

I don't think its a training issue either, I believe its a teaching thing. Because of this math, we have gotten lazy and scrapped a big part of the game in my estimation. I get the fact of getting that extra point, its like a free throw. It certainly can be important, but its being relied upon too much. We have gotten away from fundamentals, and worked hard on getting everyone's three point percentage up instead. It used to be about getting to your spots. They were your spots because its where you felt more comfortable, practiced it religiously, and became very repetitious with a higher degree of success. I suppose you can do the same for the three point shot of course, but the fact remains that the shot should be easier the closer you are to the basket. Now, some had signature shots that others can't repeat, like Kareem. For some, the three point shot is that as well, but it shouldn't be universal.

Also, you can't take someone's FG% from 10-15ft out and compare it directily to someone's three point percentage. There are way too many variables to consider. Its too simple and misses my point. A few off the top of my head are: was the shot contested, was it shot off balanced, did the player shoot in rhythm, was it forced, late in the shot clock, is that one of the players spots, or did the defense carry him too far out, was it a decent pick if its a pick and pop, was there a matchup problem or a height difference. See my point? My experiments ask a lot more questions. So, it then becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. We therefore teach them from a young age to play this way, forget about the letters from B to Y, just focus on A and Z. It is slowly destroying basketball. Its lazy and often boring to watch. The same goes for the travel leagues Karl was talking about, all they want to do is dunk. So, I'm either shooting from way out here, or my ass in heading to the rack. Boooooooring. Time to coach them up, let them know there is whole bunch more to this sport. Its like those squiggly lined pictures, you're just not going to get me to see the dolphin jumping out of the water, lol.

I don't find the shooting any less entertaining than I found Jordan's Bulls or the Bad Boys Pistons or Hakeem's Rockets, but I guess we can just agree to disagree on the entertainment value (though it does sound a little like you the three point line may be standing on your lawn...).

I do think, however, that the league us unlikely to cycle away from the 3-point shot unless there are significant rule changes. It seems very unlikely that current trends are a function of laziness and crowd-following. It seems much more likely that current trends are happening because teams that get most of their offense from the arc, the paint, and the free throw line have been the ones winning the most in recent years.

Maybe if the league brought back the hand check, that would make it harder to penetrate, which would force teams to go into the post and/or settle for the midrange more. There would be less dribble penetration, less fouls, less driving and kicking to open shooters, more scores in the 90s, more traditional PFs. But as long as the rules favor dribble penetration, the post the and midrange shot seem likely to remain smallish parts of the game.

Great point, I think that is a big part of it. It took away the physical aspect of the game. I don't mean to be the Gene Hackman character here demanding three passes before a shot, and not trying to be the grouch either. It just bugs me that people take a sport that I love and reduce it down to a math problem. Well, the only constant thing is change. If you stand in the same place long enough, your bound to see everything pass by again. It reminds me of an argument I had in an art class once though. The teacher tried to tell me that a canvas painted blue was art, because it still evoked a feeling. I disagreed and said it was merely a demonstration of one of the many tools of art. That art is the combination of all these tools and techniques to create something greater than the sum of its parts, and that a guy who paints something one color is a guy with a roller making $15 an hour. She didn't like my take much then either. I digress, but it feels very similar. Until the next debate my friend, we'll agree to disagree.

[PennytoShaq]

The hand check coming back would be nice. Inject a little more physicality into the game without losing where it has evolved to (skill at every position, higher quality and more efficient shooting ) is a fair compromise. The rest is old-school romanticism. The league also has to crack down on the off hand push-off by offensive players - made most famous by Jordan-VS Utah Finals. The “star calls” have always been an issue and need to go.