Official Speculation Thread ‘17-18’: XVIII: The Long Wait Continues

[PrimeThyme]

I’m so tired of hearing this argument that somehow Vuc, Ross, Simmons, or even Augustine for that matter are untradable or even hard to trade contracts. Look at how Clifford and this front office have talked about Vuc this offseason. They don’t want to trade him. He is on a good deal that is expiring next year. Simmons is on an extremely team friendly deal, Augustine is on the back half of his deal and is one of the better backup PG’s in the league, and Ross’s deal is expiring. && yes we may not get a lot of value back for any of them, but the value of trading him or any of these other vets would be to open up minutes for Birch, Briscoe, Frazier, Iwundu, etc. becuase those guys potentially will have a lot more value for us down the road than any of these vets do and it would allow for us to secure a higher draft pick (there may not be as much incentive to tank but there is still plenty of incentive to tank and get in the bottom 3 this year).

This is 3 straight years with the same starters and now instead of Elf we have replaced him with a career backup. This is not only a terrible product to watch, but you can’t convince most of this fan base or anybody else that this team will yield any better results. This roster’s ceiling is likely 30 wins, && the more likely outcome is once again it won’t be good enough to keep us even competitive yet it also won’t be be bad enough to get us inside the top 3. It’s hard to defend that. These vets could have been traded, but the fact of the matter is they hired Clifford and plan on being as competitive as possible this year.

[rcklsscognition]

I’m so tired of hearing this argument that somehow Vuc, Ross, Simmons, or even Augustine for that matter are untradable or even hard to trade contracts. Look at how Clifford and this front office have talked about Vuc this offeseason. They don’t want to trade him. He is on a good deal that is expiring next year. Simmons is on an extremely team friendly deal, Augustine is on the back half of his deal and is one of the better backup PG’s in the league, and Ross’s deal is expiring. && yes we may not get a lot of value back for any of them, but the value of trading him or any of these other vets would be to open up minutes for Birch, Briscoe, Frazier, Iwundu, etc. becuase those guys potentially will have a lot more value for us down the road than any of these vets do and it would allow for us to secure a higher draft picks (there may not be as much incentive to tank but there is plenty of incentive to still get in the bottom 3 this year).

This is 3 straight years with the same starters and now instead of Elf we have replaced him with a career backup. This not only a terrible product to watch, but you can’t convince most of this fan base or anybody else that this team will yield any better results. This roster’s ceiling is likely 30 wins, && the more likely outcome is once again it won’t be good enough to keep us even competitive yet it also won’t be be bad enough to get us inside the top 3. It’s hard to defend that. These vets could have been traded, but the fact of the matter is they hired Clifford and plan on being as competitive as possible this year.

You've got it all wrong. They've just been saying that for everyone over the span of 6+ years to build up their trade values. /s

[MagicMatic]

Who says the master plan is to open cap space for next year? The plan is to have cap flexibility moving forward. Some of you guys think every decision has to be tied to getting a star player. Some things are just about building and retaining a legit core. Our cap situation was awful. It’s not easy to fix things like that over night. It just does not happen.

As for playing offense like “toddlers”. We shall see. Frazier was showing some non-toddler offensive skills and JI has shown he may have more skills than some people want to admit.

The season here will be silence from some when the Weltman guys have a good game, and then piling on when they don’t. That’s my easy prediction of how this place will go all season.

Personally, I look forward to watching Bamba and JI develop over the course of the season. I think we have two great young players and are a legit wing away from being a scary young team.

Also, lets try and not misuse the word literally. There are enough 14 year old girls doing this on a daily basis as it is.

I too look forward to seeing JI and Bamba play next to each other with a capable roster.

The criticism of WeHam isn’t “getting a star player”, it’s not choosing a direction and continuing to field the “legit core” as you call it, that has been a symptom and crutch since Hennigan was here. I refuse to believe there were zero options for “the core” and that packaging AG wasn’t on the table to get conversations started. If clearing capspace to take on bad contracts is actually the goal, 2030 here we come.

We shopped AG last deadline.

Not sure what you are talking about with the core. My point was that we are not clearing cap just to chase a star player. We need flexibility to keep the guys we draft long term and to sign role players who will fit around those guys. Except the ones who suck, like Mario - so far looks like a good decision by the FO to let him walk.

I think the direction is clear. We draft the BPA , find steals in the UFA market and retain assets on good contracts. So far that has gotten us two complimentary players in bamba and isaac, and a bench that should keep us in games instead of getting us blown out.

What we do with the other guys is what people argue the most about. But assuming nothing will ever happen and we wont ever makes moves just seems unrealistic to me. The only thing you can really say is - lets see what happens, but that is not worth getting down on the FO about, IMO.

“Let’s see what happens” is absolutely where we stand. We’ve been standing there since they took over control of the team. They’ve hired Clifford, made minor trades, and selected BPA.

My biggest problem with the last two pages of this thread (and WeHam) is that I fail to believe there are zero trades worth making for majority of the starting lineup. I also don’t believe letting all the money just walk away is the best option because I don’t think capspace is as valuable to a franchise like Orlando in its current state. Who knows, maybe they’ll make a trade soon. Let’s see what happens.

[PennytoShaq]

I’m so tired of hearing this argument that somehow Vuc, Ross, Simmons, or even Augustine for that matter are untradable or even hard to trade contracts. Look at how Clifford and this front office have talked about Vuc this offseason. They don’t want to trade him. He is on a good deal that is expiring next year. Simmons is on an extremely team friendly deal, Augustine is on the back half of his deal and is one of the better backup PG’s in the league, and Ross’s deal is expiring. && yes we may not get a lot of value back for any of them, but the value of trading him or any of these other vets would be to open up minutes for Birch, Briscoe, Frazier, Iwundu, etc. becuase those guys potentially will have a lot more value for us down the road than any of these vets do and it would allow for us to secure a higher draft pick (there may not be as much incentive to tank but there is still plenty of incentive to tank and get in the bottom 3 this year).

This is 3 straight years with the same starters and now instead of Elf we have replaced him with a career backup. This is not only a terrible product to watch, but you can’t convince most of this fan base or anybody else that this team will yield any better results. This roster’s ceiling is likely 30 wins, && the more likely outcome is once again it won’t be good enough to keep us even competitive yet it also won’t be be bad enough to get us inside the top 3. It’s hard to defend that. These vets could have been traded, but the fact of the matter is they hired Clifford and plan on being as competitive as possible this year.

So you are saying that 3 players that we all think suck and play for one of the worst teams in basketball should somehow be able to yeild us a better return than simply letting them expire for cap space?

And you are also basing this on soundbytes to the media?

What Clifford says to the media means nothing. The guy most likely hates Vuc more than all of us combined.

[Knightro]

I’m so tired of hearing this argument that somehow Vuc, Ross, Simmons, or even Augustine for that matter are untradable or even hard to trade contracts. Look at how Clifford and this front office have talked about Vuc this offeseason. They don’t want to trade him. He is on a good deal that is expiring next year. Simmons is on an extremely team friendly deal, Augustine is on the back half of his deal and is one of the better backup PG’s in the league, and Ross’s deal is expiring. && yes we may not get a lot of value back for any of them, but the value of trading him or any of these other vets would be to open up minutes for Birch, Briscoe, Frazier, Iwundu, etc. becuase those guys potentially will have a lot more value for us down the road than any of these vets do and it would allow for us to secure a higher draft picks (there may not be as much incentive to tank but there is plenty of incentive to still get in the bottom 3 this year).

This is 3 straight years with the same starters and now instead of Elf we have replaced him with a career backup. This not only a terrible product to watch, but you can’t convince most of this fan base or anybody else that this team will yield any better results. This roster’s ceiling is likely 30 wins, && the more likely outcome is once again it won’t be good enough to keep us even competitive yet it also won’t be be bad enough to get us inside the top 3. It’s hard to defend that. These vets could have been traded, but the fact of the matter is they hired Clifford and plan on being as competitive as possible this year.

Any player is tradeable. Arenas got traded. Rashard got traded. Mozgov got traded. Brandon Knight got traded.

However... just because a player CAN be traded doesn't mean you can actually trade them for someone who actually helps your team. In almost every scenario, you're traded bad salary for bad salary or for worse salary.

People would lose their ever loving minds if the Magic attached a 1st round pick to someone like Fournier to get out from underneath his contract.

The Magic are over the salary cap, so they have to take back close to equal $ value in any deal.

Does it really do anything for the Magic for them to trade Vucevic for Austin Rivers? That's the kind of deal you're looking at. A useless expiring deal for a useless expiring deal.

Beyond that, my suggestion to you would be to not take ANYTHING a coach or general manager says publicly about any player too seriously.

Vucevic is on the team right now. Clifford isn't going to take a dump on him or anyone else publicly to the media, especially not before he's actually coached him in any game. He and the front office are going to pump up every player publicly until they're no longer here. No organization roasts their players while they're still there.

[PennytoShaq]

I too look forward to seeing JI and Bamba play next to each other with a capable roster.

The criticism of WeHam isn’t “getting a star player”, it’s not choosing a direction and continuing to field the “legit core” as you call it, that has been a symptom and crutch since Hennigan was here. I refuse to believe there were zero options for “the core” and that packaging AG wasn’t on the table to get conversations started. If clearing capspace to take on bad contracts is actually the goal, 2030 here we come.

We shopped AG last deadline.

Not sure what you are talking about with the core. My point was that we are not clearing cap just to chase a star player. We need flexibility to keep the guys we draft long term and to sign role players who will fit around those guys. Except the ones who suck, like Mario - so far looks like a good decision by the FO to let him walk.

I think the direction is clear. We draft the BPA , find steals in the UFA market and retain assets on good contracts. So far that has gotten us two complimentary players in bamba and isaac, and a bench that should keep us in games instead of getting us blown out.

What we do with the other guys is what people argue the most about. But assuming nothing will ever happen and we wont ever makes moves just seems unrealistic to me. The only thing you can really say is - lets see what happens, but that is not worth getting down on the FO about, IMO.

“Let’s see what happens” is absolutely where we stand. We’ve been standing there since they took over control of the team. They’ve hired Clifford, made minor trades, and selected BPA.

My biggest problem with the last two pages of this thread (and WeHam) is that I fail to believe there are zero trades worth making for majority of the starting lineup. I also don’t believe letting all the money just walk away is the best option because I don’t think capspace is as valuable to a franchise like Orlando in its current state. Who knows, maybe they’ll make a trade soon. Let’s see what happens.

I believe it. These players dont have much value. Sure there are trades, but they are probably bad ones. Unless you liked the biyombo for grant/mozgov trade. Most of us saw that as a slight positive but nothing earth shattering. Thats what would happen with any of the other guys right now.

Ag - diffeent story. But moving him now would cause a riot. Especially from the “but..oladipo!!” Fans.

[Knightro]

I also don’t believe letting all the money just walk away is the best option because I don’t think capspace is as valuable to a franchise like Orlando in its current state. Who knows, maybe they’ll make a trade soon. Let’s see what happens.

Cap flexibility is probably just as important, if not more important than outright cap space.

If you don't think your team will be a particularly attractive destination for free agents, then you need to have cap flexibility to acquire draft assets along with higher priced talent that teams are looking to shed.

[PrimeThyme]

Both of you are missing the point, it’s not about the value we get back in trade. Hell, I’d take any young unproven guy or a second round pick back for any of them. The point is there is ZERO value to our team in letting them stay this entire year and just expire while guys like Birch, Frazier, Briscoe, Iwundu, etc can’t get on the court becuase of it and while these vets keep us just competitive enough to once again not get a top 5 pick. That’s why you trade them. Getting a high draft pick and playing time for the young guys on this team is more valuable than anything else could be for a team in our position.

[PennytoShaq]

Both of you are missing the point, it’s not about the value we get back in trade. Hell, I’d take any young unproven guy or a second round pick back for any of them. The point is there is ZERO value to our team in letting them stay this entire year and just expire while guys like Birch, Frazier, Briscoe, Iwundu, etc can’t get on the court becuase of it and while these vets keep us just competitive enough to once again not get a top 5 pick. That’s why you trade them. Getting a high draft pick and playing time for the young guys on this team is more valuable than anything else could be for a team in our position.

How did we miss this point when we clearly explained to you why trading them would not have done much at all for any of those things?

And the irony of you wanting to see all of these Weltman guys play after saying multiple times that Weltman has not done anything since he got here is pretty funny.

It’s better to let expiring deals expire unless you can get one back in a trade. And most likely that has not been on the table for us. Why would a team trade us a 2nd rounder or a young guy for DJ Augustine? That doesn’t make much sense to me.

[BadMofoPimp]

I’m so tired of hearing this argument that somehow Vuc, Ross, Simmons, or even Augustine for that matter are untradable or even hard to trade contracts. Look at how Clifford and this front office have talked about Vuc this offseason. They don’t want to trade him. He is on a good deal that is expiring next year. Simmons is on an extremely team friendly deal, Augustine is on the back half of his deal and is one of the better backup PG’s in the league, and Ross’s deal is expiring. && yes we may not get a lot of value back for any of them, but the value of trading him or any of these other vets would be to open up minutes for Birch, Briscoe, Frazier, Iwundu, etc. becuase those guys potentially will have a lot more value for us down the road than any of these vets do and it would allow for us to secure a higher draft pick (there may not be as much incentive to tank but there is still plenty of incentive to tank and get in the bottom 3 this year).

This is 3 straight years with the same starters and now instead of Elf we have replaced him with a career backup. This is not only a terrible product to watch, but you can’t convince most of this fan base or anybody else that this team will yield any better results. This roster’s ceiling is likely 30 wins, && the more likely outcome is once again it won’t be good enough to keep us even competitive yet it also won’t be be bad enough to get us inside the top 3. It’s hard to defend that. These vets could have been traded, but the fact of the matter is they hired Clifford and plan on being as competitive as possible this year.

So you are saying that 3 players that we all think suck and play for one of the worst teams in basketball should somehow be able to yeild us a better return than simply letting them expire for cap space?

And you are also basing this on soundbytes to the media?

What Clifford says to the media means nothing. The guy most likely hates Vuc more than all of us combined.

I don't have the video, but a few weeks ago he was on TV saying how he loves Vucevic!

[PennytoShaq]

I’m so tired of hearing this argument that somehow Vuc, Ross, Simmons, or even Augustine for that matter are untradable or even hard to trade contracts. Look at how Clifford and this front office have talked about Vuc this offseason. They don’t want to trade him. He is on a good deal that is expiring next year. Simmons is on an extremely team friendly deal, Augustine is on the back half of his deal and is one of the better backup PG’s in the league, and Ross’s deal is expiring. && yes we may not get a lot of value back for any of them, but the value of trading him or any of these other vets would be to open up minutes for Birch, Briscoe, Frazier, Iwundu, etc. becuase those guys potentially will have a lot more value for us down the road than any of these vets do and it would allow for us to secure a higher draft pick (there may not be as much incentive to tank but there is still plenty of incentive to tank and get in the bottom 3 this year).

This is 3 straight years with the same starters and now instead of Elf we have replaced him with a career backup. This is not only a terrible product to watch, but you can’t convince most of this fan base or anybody else that this team will yield any better results. This roster’s ceiling is likely 30 wins, && the more likely outcome is once again it won’t be good enough to keep us even competitive yet it also won’t be be bad enough to get us inside the top 3. It’s hard to defend that. These vets could have been traded, but the fact of the matter is they hired Clifford and plan on being as competitive as possible this year.

So you are saying that 3 players that we all think suck and play for one of the worst teams in basketball should somehow be able to yeild us a better return than simply letting them expire for cap space?

And you are also basing this on soundbytes to the media?

What Clifford says to the media means nothing. The guy most likely hates Vuc more than all of us combined.

I don't have the video, but a few weeks ago he was on TV saying how he loves Vucevic!

Not sure your point here?

[pepe1991]

Prime Thyme is saying clear and obvious fact.
Instad of bottoming out and being simply -sorry a** tankers last year (and this one) Magic made conscious decision to be threadmill team. Not bad enough to be on bottom, not good enough to be good.

Everbody knows that 57 years old Clifford was bad decision.
Everybody knows that Vučević is complimentary player who will once again thrown as go to guy.
Everybody knows Magic will be out of playoff race by mid December.
Everybody knows that Vučević and Ross won't resign.

So why pretend that this team is one Anthony Davis/Durant/Lebron away from turning a corner when they constantly put themselfs in position to botch that type of lottery jackpots?
It's no brainer that superstar is instant game changer , instad of going for that guy Magic are perfeclly fine with drafting guys like Isaac who's celiing has been downgraded by fact that now he will never become C under Magic, and that might be best position for him anyway.

Magic always make that type of decisions. It's not just Isaac.
Magic drafted Oladipo than promoted Evan as SG.
Magic drafted Hezonja in same year they gave Harris contract.
Magic saw potential in Gordon than traded for Ibaka and kicked him off position.
Now with Isaac they are kicking Gordon back out of his natural position, in same time Isaac has zero perimeter skills on offense and would be probably better used as small ball C,but since Magic went big ,with Bamba he will never be able to play it.

[darthcheech2000]

I’m so tired of hearing this argument that somehow Vuc, Ross, Simmons, or even Augustine for that matter are untradable or even hard to trade contracts. Look at how Clifford and this front office have talked about Vuc this offseason. They don’t want to trade him. He is on a good deal that is expiring next year. Simmons is on an extremely team friendly deal, Augustine is on the back half of his deal and is one of the better backup PG’s in the league, and Ross’s deal is expiring. && yes we may not get a lot of value back for any of them, but the value of trading him or any of these other vets would be to open up minutes for Birch, Briscoe, Frazier, Iwundu, etc. becuase those guys potentially will have a lot more value for us down the road than any of these vets do and it would allow for us to secure a higher draft pick (there may not be as much incentive to tank but there is still plenty of incentive to tank and get in the bottom 3 this year).

This is 3 straight years with the same starters and now instead of Elf we have replaced him with a career backup. This is not only a terrible product to watch, but you can’t convince most of this fan base or anybody else that this team will yield any better results. This roster’s ceiling is likely 30 wins, && the more likely outcome is once again it won’t be good enough to keep us even competitive yet it also won’t be be bad enough to get us inside the top 3. It’s hard to defend that. These vets could have been traded, but the fact of the matter is they hired Clifford and plan on being as competitive as possible this year.

So you are saying that 3 players that we all think suck and play for one of the worst teams in basketball should somehow be able to yeild us a better return than simply letting them expire for cap space?

And you are also basing this on soundbytes to the media?

What Clifford says to the media means nothing. The guy most likely hates Vuc more than all of us combined.

Wouldn't the "better return" you're talking about manifest itself in a better lottery pick. Thats value enough for me!

[MagicMatic]

Both of you are missing the point, it’s not about the value we get back in trade. Hell, I’d take any young unproven guy or a second round pick back for any of them. The point is there is ZERO value to our team in letting them stay this entire year and just expire while guys like Birch, Frazier, Briscoe, Iwundu, etc can’t get on the court becuase of it and while these vets keep us just competitive enough to once again not get a top 5 pick. That’s why you trade them. Getting a high draft pick and playing time for the young guys on this team is more valuable than anything else could be for a team in our position.

I’ve been saying for some time now that the solution to this roster is addition by subtraction. I don’t care if it makes the Magic worse for this season under a coach that will do everything in his power to win. In the end it will make them better for it. Any player is tradable and there is more value to bottoming out, rather than riding with this group to the semi - terrible result that will inevitably ensue. People might disagree, but that’s my case and I’m sticking to it.

[PennytoShaq]

Prime Thyme is saying clear and obvious fact.
Instad of bottoming out and being simply -sorry a** tankers last year (and this one) Magic made conscious decision to be threadmill team. Not bad enough to be on bottom, not good enough to be good.

Everbody knows that 57 years old Clifford was bad decision.
Everybody knows that Vučević is complimentary player who will once again thrown as go to guy.
Everybody knows Magic will be out of playoff race by mid December.
Everybody knows that Vučević and Ross won't resign.

So why pretend that this team is one Anthony Davis/Durant/Lebron away from turning a corner when they constantly put themselfs in position to botch that type of lottery jackpots?
It's no brainer that superstar is instant game changer , instad of going for that guy Magic are perfeclly fine with drafting guys like Isaac who's celiing has been downgraded by fact that now he will never become C under Magic, and that might be best position for him anyway.

Magic always make that type of decisions. It's not just Isaac.
Magic drafted Oladipo than promoted Evan as SG.
Magic drafted Hezonja in same year they gave Harris contract.
Magic saw potential in Gordon than traded for Ibaka and kicked him off position.
Now with Isaac they are kicking Gordon back out of his natural position, in same time Isaac has zero perimeter skills on offense and would be probably better used as small ball C,but since Magic went big ,with Bamba he will never be able to play it.

Making an absolute statement does not make it a fact. The sooner you accept that, the easier time you will have.

Example - Not everyone knows that Clifford was a bad hire. We haven’t even played game 1 and you marry yourself to ridiculous statements like this. Clifford could very well be the coach who teaches these guys how to play effective NBA basketball and gets rid of the crappy freelance habits some of these guys have built. What would a “tank”coach have done? Looks like the plan is to have Clifford coach the team and then after him, develop a young assistant to take over like Nurse did for Toronto. Doesn’t seem like a bad decision, and it’s definitely not something that can be decided upon before the season even starts.

Suddenly you want to act like Isaac is only going to be good as a Center in the NBA? Man, that’s just embarrassing hate, but has been the norm with you and any player you don’t like. Of course, your track record has been spotty at best. I think many people here saw your endless rants on Mario on OPP. You are not exactly a future NBA GM, so let’s not try and play pretend here.

Last year around this time you stated that AG could never shoot the 3, and yet he ended up shooting over 33% - which was a huge league from sub 28 the year before. But now you want to double down and say Isaac has zero perimeter skills - because why not right? Let’s just say anything and hope it happens, and if not, scramble for stats that show a player who made you look foolish is still not good in your eyes? This summer when Isaac showed some signs of offense you immediately shouted everyone down and caused daily arguments because you were so upset to see that a Magic player actually went against your “projections”.

We really are going to complain about Isaac kicking AG out of his “natural position” after saying all year that AG did “not deserve max” and after many of us told you he would most likely get 17-18 a year (he did), and now suddenly the concern is for AG’s future here? That’s amazing.

The FO resigned AG on a fair deal to see how these guys will play together and then to trade one of it doesn’t work out. It’s pretty obvious. AG had 18 a game last year and will probably average 18-20 this year while being forced to play more efficiently by Cliffordwhich means that he is an actual trade asset for us, unlike Vuc and DJ. Keeping a young asset on a good deal is never a bad move by a FO. If the worse case is that AG and ISaac play next to each other - cry me a river. Honestly, it’s just reaching to find a reason to complain at this point.

[PrimeThyme]

Both of you are missing the point, it’s not about the value we get back in trade. Hell, I’d take any young unproven guy or a second round pick back for any of them. The point is there is ZERO value to our team in letting them stay this entire year and just expire while guys like Birch, Frazier, Briscoe, Iwundu, etc can’t get on the court becuase of it and while these vets keep us just competitive enough to once again not get a top 5 pick. That’s why you trade them. Getting a high draft pick and playing time for the young guys on this team is more valuable than anything else could be for a team in our position.

How did we miss this point when we clearly explained to you why trading them would not have done much at all for any of those things?

And the irony of you wanting to see all of these Weltman guys play after saying multiple times that Weltman has not done anything since he got here is pretty funny.

It’s better to let expiring deals expire unless you can get one back in a trade. And most likely that has not been on the table for us. Why would a team trade us a 2nd rounder or a young guy for DJ Augustine? That doesn’t make much sense to me.

Mod Edit: Removed personal attacks.

I’ve credited him for the signing of birch and Briscoe multiple times on this board. Frazier and Iwundu are unproven and I have my doubts, but I’d rather see them get playing time then Simmons and Ross who will likely both be gone next offseason. Augustine could possibly be packaged in a deal with Simmons who could be a important piece off the bench on a playoff team and who is on a very good deal for a second. Augustine alone wouldn’t get us one.

The point is they are more valuable to us off the team then they are on it. Letting them stay this year and expire does nothing for us.

[PennytoShaq]

I’m so tired of hearing this argument that somehow Vuc, Ross, Simmons, or even Augustine for that matter are untradable or even hard to trade contracts. Look at how Clifford and this front office have talked about Vuc this offseason. They don’t want to trade him. He is on a good deal that is expiring next year. Simmons is on an extremely team friendly deal, Augustine is on the back half of his deal and is one of the better backup PG’s in the league, and Ross’s deal is expiring. && yes we may not get a lot of value back for any of them, but the value of trading him or any of these other vets would be to open up minutes for Birch, Briscoe, Frazier, Iwundu, etc. becuase those guys potentially will have a lot more value for us down the road than any of these vets do and it would allow for us to secure a higher draft pick (there may not be as much incentive to tank but there is still plenty of incentive to tank and get in the bottom 3 this year).

This is 3 straight years with the same starters and now instead of Elf we have replaced him with a career backup. This is not only a terrible product to watch, but you can’t convince most of this fan base or anybody else that this team will yield any better results. This roster’s ceiling is likely 30 wins, && the more likely outcome is once again it won’t be good enough to keep us even competitive yet it also won’t be be bad enough to get us inside the top 3. It’s hard to defend that. These vets could have been traded, but the fact of the matter is they hired Clifford and plan on being as competitive as possible this year.

So you are saying that 3 players that we all think suck and play for one of the worst teams in basketball should somehow be able to yeild us a better return than simply letting them expire for cap space?

And you are also basing this on soundbytes to the media?

What Clifford says to the media means nothing. The guy most likely hates Vuc more than all of us combined.

Wouldn't the "better return" you're talking about manifest itself in a better lottery pick. Thats value enough for me!

Actually, no it would not necessarily. It’s easy to forget that the Magic were not even projected to be a bottom 5 team last year until the injuries hit. Reality is that the Mavs, Kings, Hawks, Nets..etc were all incredibly bad.

Fast forward to this year where the lotto odds are not the same and it makes no sense.

Furthermore, if you take into account the “Vuc Sucks” logic, which basically is that Vuc sucks and we would be better without him - then why would trading him be a guarantee that we get worse? We may actually be better.

There are many guys in the echo chamber here who say that Clifford is an antiquated coach and playing 2 bigs is terrible. So based on their logic how would trading Vuc and going smaller do anything but make us better?

[fklt]

you know this year there wasn't even the usual delusional "our bench got so much better this season though!". that's how pathetic the summer was.

[PennytoShaq]

Both of you are missing the point, it’s not about the value we get back in trade. Hell, I’d take any young unproven guy or a second round pick back for any of them. The point is there is ZERO value to our team in letting them stay this entire year and just expire while guys like Birch, Frazier, Briscoe, Iwundu, etc can’t get on the court becuase of it and while these vets keep us just competitive enough to once again not get a top 5 pick. That’s why you trade them. Getting a high draft pick and playing time for the young guys on this team is more valuable than anything else could be for a team in our position.

How did we miss this point when we clearly explained to you why trading them would not have done much at all for any of those things?

And the irony of you wanting to see all of these Weltman guys play after saying multiple times that Weltman has not done anything since he got here is pretty funny.

It’s better to let expiring deals expire unless you can get one back in a trade. And most likely that has not been on the table for us. Why would a team trade us a 2nd rounder or a young guy for DJ Augustine? That doesn’t make much sense to me.

Lol man, you really are one of the more insufferable and condescending posters on this board these days. You pretty much attack anyone with differing opinions and instead of just sticking to healthy debate you always feel the need to inject your snarky remarks. You should check yourself, there is a reason why a large portion of this board calls you out for it.

I’ve credited him for the signing of birch and Briscoe multiple times on this board. Frazier and Iwundu are unproven and I have my doubts, but I’d rather see them get playing time then Simmons and Ross who will likely both be gone next offseason. Augustine could possibly be packaged in a deal with Simmons who could be a important piece off the bench on a playoff team and who is on a very good deal for a second. Augustine alone wouldn’t get us one.

The point is they are more valuable to us off the team then they are on it. Letting them stay this year and expire does nothing for us.

It’s funny and telling how I said nothing personal at all towards you except argue your points and you have to go into personal attack mode over a basketball duiscssion because my opinion frustrates you and makes you mad.

I don’t care what you think of me personally. Or anyone else. I don’t know you or hang out with you. Just because what I says makes you mad does not give you the right to make personal attacks on me. Please highlight where I did that to you.

Snark is all over this place. There are guys making snide comments, posting memes etc every day. I guess those are fine, but when it’s perceived against you, that makes me a bad person?

Again, I don’t care what you and your little echoe chamber of merry men think of me. You can keep your personal thoughts out of it or meet me in person and tell to my face about it anytime.

[Knightro]

Part of me can't wait for March and April when Clifford is still cracking the whip on these guys and they end up going like 12-12 after the all-star break to play themselves from the 5th pick to the 9th pick.

This board is going to absolutely melt.