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Wait, you said AG would not play SF this year

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Re: Wait, you said AG would not play SF this year 

Post#21 » by fendilim » Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:23 am

Skin wrote:As a hopeful AG at SF proponent through the years, I know where the OP is coming from. There has always been criticism of his play at SF.

For me, I always thought his best chance at becoming a star was making it at the SF position. Because of his athletic body type, lateral quickness and explosiveness, I envisioned him being able to defend the NBA SFs better than NBA PFs, right from the get go. The hope was that over time, if his offensive game grew then that would trigger his ascension to stardom.

Here's the problem... AG was always a dunker and playing close to the basket was a more successful part of his game. He had those skills right out of the box as he came into the league. So naturally, he would always have more success if he was put into position close to the basket. Fans saw where his immediate success was coming from and where quick to say, "Look he's way better as a PF!" ...and that's why the "AG is a PF" argument was always more popular than "AG is a SF".

But becoming a star at PF required much more than being a dunker. You have to defend... and I always saw the task of defending PFs for Gordon being very difficult. He doesn't have the length or thickness to be a post defender or rim protector. I'd rather take the wait-and-see approach for Gordon's offensive game to grow at SF, than take the wait-and-see appproach for his defensive game to grow at PF. Because of the body limitations, I just couldn't see him becoming a star at PF.

Vogel had great intensions of making this happen, but he never had the patience to execute it correctly. AG was never going to turn into Paul George-lite in one night... it was never going to happen in one season... so when it looked like it wasn't working, he pulled the plug and then everyone called the "AG to SF experiment" a big fat failure. After that, 99% of the forum took the stance of not wanting to see that happen again.

At that time, this forum was pretty joyous about his removal from SF. It sucked for me because I felt like I had to concede that maybe AG will never have the chance to become a star. Maybe all those guys who I had those fun debates with were right about him not being able to play SF. Maybe the best I can hope for is for him to be a good small ball PF... which in my mind was a part time role player.

But then, we drafted Isaac... and I thought, maybe there is hope! AG could switch with Isaac... AG at PF on offense and SF on defense and vice versa with Isaac. That brought renewed hope that maybe the Magic can develop a star out of AG afterall! Getting Isaac was a huge happy moment. ...which lasted about a minute. Isaac ended up battling injuries his whole rookie season and we could never see what the 2 of them would look like on the court... much less switching on the court. ...which was a whole concept that still needed to be more than just my imagination... Vogel would actually have to put it in place.

But then another thing happened! AG's shots started to fall like never before! His offensive game was hitting a huge growth curve and his star potential started to reblossom. While his numbers started to regress to the mean by the end of the season, there was still enough shown that he could be more trusted of playing on the perimeter with his improved shooting percentages. Still, not quite there with his handle, but I thought, "Hey, AG as a 3-D SF!" could be his calling! He could be one of the best 3 and D SFs in the game if he could keep his 3P% above 35%. In that role, he would probably never become a superstar (those hopes long gone), but he could still be a star! I've debated AG as a 3-D SF and that talk never got good traction in forum talks.

But yeah, now with baldy as our HC and the talk of AG at SF on defense and PF on offense, switching with Isaac... that talk reminds me of the Jonathan Isaac draft threads where we used to discuss it a lot and that has me excited for this season. I'm ready! I'm ready for AG to make his first All-Star game!

Yes. Love the optimism, but AG played more than half a season at SF and showed no flashes of capability playing at that position. If he had the skills or ability to be a SF, you can already see a fit at that role in a span of a few games.

defensively, he is good at the perimeter. But at offense the only way he can succeed is if he is more of a 3 and D. Even his shot percentages last year proved he is a more capable catch and shoot player, and cutter iso ball. I dont recall you saying he would fit more as a 3andD, I remember getting a lot of flak when I mentioned that he was a more athletic Ariza. Lol

Now that he is back playing PF, we rarely even see him being able to blowby past opposing PFs, what more SF who are quicker and better perimeter defenders?
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Re: Wait, you said AG would not play SF this year 

Post#22 » by JF5 » Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:53 am

Instincts wrote:Even with clear improvement and expansion in AG’s skill set you said that the experiment two years ago would not be reattempted, even with the obvious void at SF.

Yet interviews from Jeff Weltman, Aaron Gordon, and Dante in the past several weeks have all sourced that AG will be back at the SF during the 2018-2019. I’m sure you will justify instead of just admitting a mistake.

Please head over to the AG stat thread and record your AG pessimism before this train completely leaves the station and you try to jump on the back of the caboose. Seems like only the few AG optimist post stat predictions, while the mob of pessimists either are nowhere to be seen or can’t post a prediction for some roster or role reason. The season is about to start.

Jeff Weltman 96.9 - training camp interview
Drive time with Aaron Gordon - 10/3 - 11 minute mark
Drive time with Steve Clifford - 10/2 - 24 minute mark


I don't see what the point is with this topic... The team is still projected to be a lottery team... Just shows how bereft of talent this team is to slot him and Issac to switch roles at the 3. Both these guys aren't natural SF's...
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Re: Wait, you said AG would not play SF this year 

Post#23 » by pepe1991 » Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:21 am

People complained about Gordon at SF in 2016-17 because he was simply bad.

His stas as SF:
11 PPG ,4,9 RPG, 1,9 APG
43% FG, 29% for 3 , TS 50%, 102 offensvie,112 defensive rating

That's pretty damn ugly .

Once switched at PF ( after ASB and in 2018) his advance numbers AND his percentages all took huge jump.

Being PF gives him ability to finish around rim ,and he is elie in that . Being at SF means he has to handle ball and shoot more from perimeter. Something he still struggles with.

Whole " Gordon is SF" idea is resurrected because Isaac was drafted, not because his game changed.
Gordon still, last year, was one of worst iso scorers in whole league.
When you look at his shooting splits, he is pretty much same player he was 2 years ago, his efficiency never got better after 2# season, his impact on defense and offense also point out that he really does not have any bigger impact on O or D.

His "much improved " jumper was largly inflated due shooting in November of 2017, he was back at 27% for 3 in calendar year of 2018.

With better offense, better PG he could be Tobias Harris/Marion/Millsap type of player ,fringe allstar who is capable of having huge nights ,and as many of us say for years, he is best suited as 3rd best player on great team ( if you look landscape of contenders, second best player on a team is superstar). His hoops make him exiting to watch, but they also make people frustrated because despite supereme athletic talent he settles for jumpers and has kind a slow first step with ball.

Overall ,his contract makes him valuable player and valuable asset, but Magic, as franchize ,for years need him to be superstar, something he simply isn't capeble of being.
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Re: Wait, you said AG would not play SF this year 

Post#24 » by Catledge » Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:05 am

pepe1991 wrote:People complained about Gordon at SF in 2016-17 because he was simply bad.

His stas as SF:
11 PPG ,4,9 RPG, 1,9 APG
43% FG, 29% for 3 , TS 50%, 102 offensvie,112 defensive rating

That's pretty damn ugly .

Once switched at PF ( after ASB and in 2018) his advance numbers AND his percentages all took huge jump.


I see this cited all the time as conclusive proof that PF is AG's best position, but this kind of year-to-year improvement at his age was to be expected regardless of position. A more reasonable conclusion from those numbers would go like this: In 2016-17, he wasn't a very good basketball player at any position. In 2017-18, he was a somewhat better basketball player. This is not that unusual for a young player. Oladipo, for example, got a lot better from year to year without changing positions. He just became a better basketball player.

AG isn't a great creator against a set defense, but that's true 1) of many, perhaps most, SFs in the league and 2) regardless of what position AG plays. He's also only an average rebounder for a PF, not a terribly effective rim defender, and not effective offensively in the post against even-sized or bigger opponents. On the other hand, he is good at defending SFs and at overpowering smaller players in the paint (as opposed to taking contested fade-aways against players his size or bigger).

In general, I think if AG becomes a consistent 3pt shooter, he can be a solid starter at either position. If his 3pt shot never gets more consistent than it was last year, he's not a starter for a winning team at any position.
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Re: Wait, you said AG would not play SF this year 

Post#25 » by Rainwater » Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:21 pm

JF5 wrote:
Instincts wrote:Even with clear improvement and expansion in AG’s skill set you said that the experiment two years ago would not be reattempted, even with the obvious void at SF.

Yet interviews from Jeff Weltman, Aaron Gordon, and Dante in the past several weeks have all sourced that AG will be back at the SF during the 2018-2019. I’m sure you will justify instead of just admitting a mistake.

Please head over to the AG stat thread and record your AG pessimism before this train completely leaves the station and you try to jump on the back of the caboose. Seems like only the few AG optimist post stat predictions, while the mob of pessimists either are nowhere to be seen or can’t post a prediction for some roster or role reason. The season is about to start.

Jeff Weltman 96.9 - training camp interview
Drive time with Aaron Gordon - 10/3 - 11 minute mark
Drive time with Steve Clifford - 10/2 - 24 minute mark


I don't see what the point is with this topic... The team is still projected to be a lottery team... Just shows how bereft of talent this team is to slot him and Issac to switch roles at the 3. Both these guys aren't natural SF's...


Yeah, it really doesn't make a difference. Regardless, of where you put him this is still a lottery team.
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Re: Wait, you said AG would not play SF this year 

Post#26 » by fendilim » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:30 am

Man, gordon’s stock going down fast. Lots of people expected him as a breakout star last year now just 3 and D. Lol.
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Re: Wait, you said AG would not play SF this year 

Post#27 » by Knightro » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:51 am

fendilim wrote:Man, gordon’s stock going down fast. Lots of people expected him as a breakout star last year now just 3 and D. Lol.


I’m still very much a Gordon fan, but his self confidence in his ball handling ability simply doesn’t match his functional ball handling skills.

He can still be highly effective and worth his contract without over dribbling.

Defend, rebound, run the floor, thrive as a cutter and hit open threes.

Doesn’t mean he should never dribble. He just shouldn’t try and attack in isolation unless he has a clear mismatch like he had tonight when he got Gasol on a switch.

Clifford actually busted out an interesting new wrinkle getting AG the ball with a live dribble in the midpost a couple of times. Gordon rose up and hit a jumper over his defender without dribbling the first time. He took two hard dribbles to the right and hit another jumper that was virtually uncontested thanks to his athleticsm the second time.

He does that a couple times a game and inevitably guys will start defending up on him even tighter which will open the possibility of rip through moves to get into the paint.

There are simple and effective ways for Gordon to put himself in position to take and make shots without dribbling the ball 6-7 times while going nowhere first.
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Re: Wait, you said AG would not play SF this year 

Post#28 » by OrlandoDream » Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:10 am

AG that started at SF alongside Ibaka and Vuc isnt the same player today. He has improved on every facet on his game except some can argue his defense has taken a toll since he has started focusing more on offense. AG is capable to be a 3-D right now. Then again so can isaac. But Isaac being a 7 footer not, unless he develops KD handles, he is gonna be a 4.
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Re: Wait, you said AG would not play SF this year 

Post#29 » by fendilim » Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:44 am

OrlandoDream wrote:AG that started at SF alongside Ibaka and Vuc isnt the same player today. He has improved on every facet on his game except some can argue his defense has taken a toll since he has started focusing more on offense. AG is capable to be a 3-D right now. Then again so can isaac. But Isaac being a 7 footer not, unless he develops KD handles, he is gonna be a 4.

Its not the same player today because we’ve limited his number of dribbles. As an sf that year, he was asked to create and facilitate the offense, which was clearly not his strong suit.
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Re: Wait, you said AG would not play SF this year 

Post#30 » by Knightro » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:37 am

It’s pretty obvious that the player Gordon *wants* to be and the player Gordon actually is aren’t the same.

I think Gordon envisions himself as a superstar wing player. Someone who can take the ball beyond the 3PT line, attack his defender 1 on 1 and get buckets.

What’s frustrating as a fan is that he’s actually *really good* at a lot of other things - cutting, running the floor, rebounding, defending (when he’s locked in), catch and shoot, etc.

But those things aren’t sexy. He wants to be a prototypical NBA star wing who gets buckets.

His dribbling has improved a ton. He has clearly worked on it and has a variety of fancy crossovers and through the legs moves that he’s comfortable with, but he just still hasn’t figured out how to turn that into a functional way to beat a defender.

Far too often Gordon dribbles without actually moving forward or around anyone and ends up shooting a wild shot on the move with very little chance of success.

I love the kid. The Magic are clearly committed to him. Now hopefully Clifford can get him to realize that he can still be an all-star caliber player without a ton of overdribbling.
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Re: Wait, you said AG would not play SF this year 

Post#31 » by fendilim » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:49 am

Knightro wrote:It’s pretty obvious that the player Gordon *wants* to be and the player Gordon actually is aren’t the same.

I think Gordon envisions himself as a superstar wing player. Someone who can take the ball beyond the 3PT line, attack his defender 1 on 1 and get buckets.

What’s frustrating as a fan is that he’s actually *really good* at a lot of other things - cutting, running the floor, rebounding, defending (when he’s locked in), catch and shoot, etc.

But those things aren’t sexy. He wants to be a prototypical NBA star wing who gets buckets.

His dribbling has improved a ton. He has clearly worked on it and has a variety of fancy crossovers and through the legs moves that he’s comfortable with, but he just still hasn’t figured out how to turn that into a functional way to beat a defender.

Far too often Gordon dribbles without actually moving forward or around anyone and ends up shooting a wild shot on the move with very little chance of success.

I love the kid. The Magic are clearly committed to him. Now hopefully Clifford can get him to realize that he can still be an all-star caliber player without a ton of overdribbling.

To me, as long as he buys into this system, he's gonna be worth every penny we are paying him. And hopefully this isn't all just for show in preseason.
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Re: Wait, you said AG would not play SF this year 

Post#32 » by Rainwater » Sat Oct 13, 2018 5:43 am

Knightro wrote:It’s pretty obvious that the player Gordon *wants* to be and the player Gordon actually is aren’t the same.

I think Gordon envisions himself as a superstar wing player. Someone who can take the ball beyond the 3PT line, attack his defender 1 on 1 and get buckets.

What’s frustrating as a fan is that he’s actually *really good* at a lot of other things - cutting, running the floor, rebounding, defending (when he’s locked in), catch and shoot, etc.

But those things aren’t sexy. He wants to be a prototypical NBA star wing who gets buckets.

His dribbling has improved a ton. He has clearly worked on it and has a variety of fancy crossovers and through the legs moves that he’s comfortable with, but he just still hasn’t figured out how to turn that into a functional way to beat a defender.

Far too often Gordon dribbles without actually moving forward or around anyone and ends up shooting a wild shot on the move with very little chance of success.

I love the kid. The Magic are clearly committed to him. Now hopefully Clifford can get him to realize that he can still be an all-star caliber player without a ton of overdribbling.


Couldn't not agree more
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Re: Wait, you said AG would not play SF this year 

Post#33 » by spinedoc » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:30 pm

AG has always been a hustle sixth man to me. He can be successful if paired with the right player, maybe JI, but he certainly needs someone to mask his deficiencies. Best case scenario is that switching offense and defense makes his game look more whole. The sad reality is that once we got JI he became redundant, and once we signed him to a big contract, it put management on the clock. They can still make the necessary correction, but if they remain stubborn, someone will get fired for it eventually. Put me into the pessimistic camp, on this issue anyway.
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Re: Wait, you said AG would not play SF this year 

Post#34 » by Skybox » Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:31 am

I really like AG but I’m now convinced he’s not star material. Trade him while he’s still got “massive upside” and a great contract. He’ll be Avery good player for a better team but we need a facilitator and, IMO, Isaacshould be in AG’s spot. I think is AG is rapidly approaching his peak capability. He’ll score 25 a couple times a month but I don’t think he leads a team to wins on a regular basis...I just don’t think he’s got the BBIQ to move much higher but. He’s got great value to another team...we need a legit every night scoring threat and AG is a valuable chip for a team looking to re-structure.
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Re: Wait, you said AG would not play SF this year 

Post#35 » by Audi » Sat Oct 27, 2018 1:03 pm

I will reserve my opinion on AG until we get even the semblance of a competent starting PG on this roster and I encourage others to do the same.
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Re: Wait, you said AG would not play SF this year 

Post#36 » by drsd » Sat Oct 27, 2018 3:36 pm

I have been excited by Isaac and Gordon. They are clearly compatible.
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Re: Wait, you said AG would not play SF this year 

Post#37 » by Catledge » Sat Oct 27, 2018 4:20 pm

drsd wrote:I have been excited by Isaac and Gordon. They are clearly compatible.


It seems to me that their combined defensive contributions are more than good enough to outweigh their playmaking limitations on offense.

I know that those offensive limitations are extra frustrating right now because our guard play is so poor, but I think it's something we just have to put up with until we can improve the backcourt at the trade deadline or during the off-season.
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Re: Wait, you said AG would not play SF this year 

Post#38 » by Rainwater » Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:17 pm

Audi wrote:I will reserve my opinion on AG until we get even the semblance of a competent starting PG on this roster and I encourage others to do the same.


What does that say about AG? Doesn't this just confirm he is just a role player? I agree with you a pg/stars/playmaker would help AG but lets just be honest here 1 or 2 playmakers/stars would not only help AG but help every single player on this team. For the longest time the magic have been asking guys like AG, Evan, and Vuc to play bigger roles that they can't fulfill. Adding a playmaker/stars doesn't change the type of player AG or any other player are but rather shows the talent that the magic need to make this all work.
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Re: Wait, you said AG would not play SF this year 

Post#39 » by Optimus_Steel » Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:30 pm

spinedoc wrote:AG has always been a hustle sixth man to me. He can be successful if paired with the right player, maybe JI, but he certainly needs someone to mask his deficiencies. Best case scenario is that switching offense and defense makes his game look more whole. The sad reality is that once we got JI he became redundant, and once we signed him to a big contract, it put management on the clock. They can still make the necessary correction, but if they remain stubborn, someone will get fired for it eventually. Put me into the pessimistic camp, on this issue anyway.
Agreed. Reality is that he is simply not that good. He lacks star talent. What he does have is average player talent in terms of skillset, but because we drafted him 4th and he can jump really high fans convince themselves he can be a star. AG works best at PF, he became redundant when Issac was drafted. He became doubly redundant when Mamba was drafted. We had already tried him at SF and it was a disaster. We signed him to keep the asset but he won't be here long because BIG is just wishful thinking, won't work unless you want to keep losing games. Truly believe he will be traded within the next year, just hope his trade value is not diminished and that WeltHam make a smart move to get players we lack.
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Re: Wait, you said AG would not play SF this year 

Post#40 » by cedric76 » Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:10 am

Knightro wrote:It’s pretty obvious that the player Gordon *wants* to be and the player Gordon actually is aren’t the same.

I think Gordon envisions himself as a superstar wing player. Someone who can take the ball beyond the 3PT line, attack his defender 1 on 1 and get buckets.

What’s frustrating as a fan is that he’s actually *really good* at a lot of other things - cutting, running the floor, rebounding, defending (when he’s locked in), catch and shoot, etc.

But those things aren’t sexy. He wants to be a prototypical NBA star wing who gets buckets.

His dribbling has improved a ton. He has clearly worked on it and has a variety of fancy crossovers and through the legs moves that he’s comfortable with, but he just still hasn’t figured out how to turn that into a functional way to beat a defender.

Far too often Gordon dribbles without actually moving forward or around anyone and ends up shooting a wild shot on the move with very little chance of success.

I love the kid. The Magic are clearly committed to him. Now hopefully Clifford can get him to realize that he can still be an all-star caliber player without a ton of overdribbling.




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Grayson or Monk? Bring the cheapest

unleash Jett next seaon

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