Should Bamba Remain in the Rotation

[basketballRob]

Normaly i agere about almost everything Xatticus posts but i'm off this.

This is Vučević draftexpress outlook, praised for ability to shoot off catch and good footwork.

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Nikola-Vucevic-5828/


Talking about Bamba and Isaac as some superior prospects to Vučević is kind a silly. You say that Vučević 13-12 is nothing special on 33 mpg, yet Isaac plays 25 mpg and can't score over 8 ppg or grab 5 rebounds despite being 6'11.

Bamba can't even play 36 min due all fouling and stamina issues that are well presented on daily bases. He has sore foot after 3 months of a season , playing 20mpg.

You can argue that their athletic potential is greater than Vučević one, but basketball talent? Give me a break.
Vuc feeling for flow of the game, offensive awarness and positioning is greater than all Bamba's and Isaac's offensvie tools combined.

How can we even talk about "greater potential" of two 21 years old guys who are 7 footers and who can't post up 6'5 guards and in same time can't knock down shots from any range so let's not act they are some Frye type modern bigs.

At this point talking about Isaac as amazing talent is ...being too optimistic, to say a least. 2 years of nba he is yet to learn how to score 10 points in 25 min. Shoot, pass, dribble... OR do anything really.

Vuc misses games every year and has never been able to play big minutes.

Bamba could play the minutes and hasn't had foul problems.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

[Xatticus]

Normaly i agere about almost everything Xatticus posts but i'm off this.

This is Vučević draftexpress outlook, praised for ability to shoot off catch and good footwork.

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Nikola-Vucevic-5828/


Talking about Bamba and Isaac as some superior prospects to Vučević is kind a silly. You say that Vučević 13-12 is nothing special on 33 mpg, yet Isaac plays 25 mpg and can't score over 8 ppg or grab 5 rebounds despite being 6'11.

Bamba can't even play 36 min due all fouling and stamina issues that are well presented on daily bases. He has sore foot after 3 months of a season , playing 20mpg.

You can argue that their athletic potential is greater than Vučević one, but basketball talent? Give me a break.
Vuc feeling for flow of the game, offensive awarness and positioning is greater than all Bamba's and Isaac's offensvie tools combined.

How can we even talk about "greater potential" of two 21 years old guys who are 7 footers and who can't post up 6'5 guards and in same time can't knock down shots from any range so let's not act they are some Frye type modern bigs.

At this point talking about Isaac as amazing talent is ...being too optimistic, to say a least. 2 years of nba he is yet to learn how to score 10 points in 25 min. Shoot, pass, dribble... OR do anything really.

And at 21 years of age, Vucevic was averaging 5.5 ppg (.455 eFG%, .462 TS%, .529 FT%, 6.2 AST%). Perhaps Isaac and Bamba are a good distance away from reaching their peaks as well? Perhaps their production is hampered by the presence of veterans on the roster in much the same way as Vucevic's was in Philadelphia? Maybe Vucevic developed that offensive awareness and feel for the game over the last seven years?

The evidence of Isaac's improvement is there. His eFG and TS percentages have improved substantially despite his struggles at the 3-point line this year because a significantly higher percentage of his shots are coming from right around the hoop and because he is hitting a much higher percentage of his 2-point jump shots. His FTr has spiked up this year as well. This is almost certainly the result of his increased strength, yet he still has a long way to go in his physical maturation.

[NotACat]

Bamba looked terrible, and I don't think his concerns are related to his body. His has almost no feel for the game

[SOUL]

Bamba looked terrible, and I don't think his concerns are related to his body. His has almost no feel for the game

Did we watch the same game?

9/4/1/1 in 15 minutes and +11 while playing solid defense on 4-6 shooting.

[NotACat]

Bamba looked terrible, and I don't think his concerns are related to his body. His has almost no feel for the game

Did we watch the same game?

9/4/1/1 in 15 minutes and +11 while playing solid defense on 4-6 shooting.

I mainly caught the later 3rd and the 4th. Could've been gassed by the time I started watching. He did knock down a jumper, but it seems like he's not able to do much and there were plays on defense where he was in position to help but didn't even have his hands up or look engaged on that end

[BadHombre]

Normaly i agere about almost everything Xatticus posts but i'm off this.

This is Vučević draftexpress outlook, praised for ability to shoot off catch and good footwork.

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Nikola-Vucevic-5828/


Talking about Bamba and Isaac as some superior prospects to Vučević is kind a silly. You say that Vučević 13-12 is nothing special on 33 mpg, yet Isaac plays 25 mpg and can't score over 8 ppg or grab 5 rebounds despite being 6'11.

Bamba can't even play 36 min due all fouling and stamina issues that are well presented on daily bases. He has sore foot after 3 months of a season , playing 20mpg.

You can argue that their athletic potential is greater than Vučević one, but basketball talent? Give me a break.
Vuc feeling for flow of the game, offensive awarness and positioning is greater than all Bamba's and Isaac's offensvie tools combined.

How can we even talk about "greater potential" of two 21 years old guys who are 7 footers and who can't post up 6'5 guards and in same time can't knock down shots from any range so let's not act they are some Frye type modern bigs.

At this point talking about Isaac as amazing talent is ...being too optimistic, to say a least. 2 years of nba he is yet to learn how to score 10 points in 25 min. Shoot, pass, dribble... OR do anything really.

And at 21 years of age, Vucevic was averaging 5.5 ppg (.455 eFG%, .462 TS%, .529 FT%, 6.2 AST%). Perhaps Isaac and Bamba are a good distance away from reaching their peaks as well? Perhaps their production is hampered by the presence of veterans on the roster in much the same way as Vucevic's was in Philadelphia? Maybe Vucevic developed that offensive awareness and feel for the game over the last seven years?

The evidence of Isaac's improvement is there. His eFG and TS percentages have improved substantially despite his struggles at the 3-point line this year because a significantly higher percentage of his shots are coming from right around the hoop and because he is hitting a much higher percentage of his 2-point jump shots. His FTr has spiked up this year as well. This is almost certainly the result of his increased strength, yet he still has a long way to go in his physical maturation.

Yeah, I don't think there's a fair comparison at play here. Criticising Isaac's rebounding (which, can certainly be improved), doesn't take into account that he's a SF guarding on the perimeter more often than not, and not under the rim to gather rebounds at the rate a C or traditional PF would be. But, when looking at forwards who average 26mpg or less, Isaac ranks 28th in rebounds amongst those players. (Keep in mind that this is a flawed list, as it includes names like Pau Gasol, Mason Plumlee, Sabonis, WCJr, and Bam Adebayo as 'forwards', but they're clearly closer to the C end of the spectrum than Isaac. His Per36 rate of 6.8 is almost the same as 21 year old Durant, at 6.9. (The comparison there is to do with their slender frames).

I don't understand how people are retrospectively crediting Vucevic as some kind of 'prospect' when he entered the draft. He was never highly touted in his own draft class, or even in his early years here. He's grown significantly as a player over the last 7 years here, which is to be applauded, and that includes his passing game which is his standout ability for his position.

However, I do believe Vucevic has talent, particularly on offense. But the question is whether or not that talent makes a substantial impact on the team. I was curious if Vucevic's impact justified his high usage over the years, though, so I looked at W-L records for:

Games Starting: 138 - 285 (.326)
Games Off Bench: 13 - 12 (.510)
Total Games Playing: 151 - 297 (.337)
Games Not Played: 26 - 62 (.295)

As an 82 game season, those records would look like:

Games Starting: 27 - 65
Games Off Bench: 43 - 39
Total Games Playing: 28 - 64
Games Not Played: 24 - 68

So, for most of his tenure, he's really made a very nominal impact on the overall record of the team. In fact, the best performance this team has had is when Vucevic was coming off the bench, with Biyombo starting (which is likely a tough pill for some to swallow since they seem incensed at the idea a team can function beyond 'the numbers'). Considering he's outlasted the likes of Harris and Oladipo who are now leading other teams to successful, winning seasons, it's a shame that we stuck with the player who seems to be the least impactful of the original young core.

[pepe1991]

Normaly i agere about almost everything Xatticus posts but i'm off this.

This is Vučević draftexpress outlook, praised for ability to shoot off catch and good footwork.

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Nikola-Vucevic-5828/


Talking about Bamba and Isaac as some superior prospects to Vučević is kind a silly. You say that Vučević 13-12 is nothing special on 33 mpg, yet Isaac plays 25 mpg and can't score over 8 ppg or grab 5 rebounds despite being 6'11.

Bamba can't even play 36 min due all fouling and stamina issues that are well presented on daily bases. He has sore foot after 3 months of a season , playing 20mpg.

You can argue that their athletic potential is greater than Vučević one, but basketball talent? Give me a break.
Vuc feeling for flow of the game, offensive awarness and positioning is greater than all Bamba's and Isaac's offensvie tools combined.

How can we even talk about "greater potential" of two 21 years old guys who are 7 footers and who can't post up 6'5 guards and in same time can't knock down shots from any range so let's not act they are some Frye type modern bigs.

At this point talking about Isaac as amazing talent is ...being too optimistic, to say a least. 2 years of nba he is yet to learn how to score 10 points in 25 min. Shoot, pass, dribble... OR do anything really.

And at 21 years of age, Vucevic was averaging 5.5 ppg (.455 eFG%, .462 TS%, .529 FT%, 6.2 AST%). Perhaps Isaac and Bamba are a good distance away from reaching their peaks as well? Perhaps their production is hampered by the presence of veterans on the roster in much the same way as Vucevic's was in Philadelphia? Maybe Vucevic developed that offensive awareness and feel for the game over the last seven years?

The evidence of Isaac's improvement is there. His eFG and TS percentages have improved substantially despite his struggles at the 3-point line this year because a significantly higher percentage of his shots are coming from right around the hoop and because he is hitting a much higher percentage of his 2-point jump shots. His FTr has spiked up this year as well. This is almost certainly the result of his increased strength, yet he still has a long way to go in his physical maturation.

Oh come on you know better than this.

His eFG last year was 3rd worst among all PFs on ESPNs hollinger's data , now he "Improved " to 10th worst.
His TS% was one of the worst among active rotation players in general, now it's just 56th worst among 65 PFs in nba.

His PER is 5th worst among PFs despite getting 25 mpg.

His RPM is 88th among 97. players who ever played PF this season.

His OBPM is 94th among 97 players. Only Giles, Anderson and W.C Jr ( rookie ) are worst offensive players than him this year at PF.


This is like praising drug addict that he went from heroine to meth. Or saying your love life is good because now girl you have crush on finally looked in your direction. While she was making out with some dude.
Guy has been nothing shorter than a bust so far.

[Furinkazan]

Bamba looked terrible, and I don't think his concerns are related to his body. His has almost no feel for the game

Did we watch the same game?

9/4/1/1 in 15 minutes and +11 while playing solid defense on 4-6 shooting.

I mainly caught the later 3rd and the 4th. Could've been gassed by the time I started watching. He did knock down a jumper, but it seems like he's not able to do much and there were plays on defense where he was in position to help but didn't even have his hands up or look engaged on that end

If you didnt watch full game then maybe just maybe you shoudnt comment on such subject?
He was playing really well 1st half.

[SOUL]

He seems to be holding onto the ball lately better at least (after offensive rebounds). I noticed that early on in the season he would get his hand on the ball a lot but rarely come down with it. Think with an offseason of conditioning + adding strength, he'll be really good in that area.

[Skybox]

I think with Vuc's upcoming UFA and upcoming payday, we've got to be Team Bamba OR Team Vuc...honest question, even if Bamba reaches his projected elite peak, isn't he a entirely different player than Vuc? The transition to Bamba means a whole different offensive and defensive scheme, right? So, it seems lazy to think that we'll keep Vuc as Bamba's "mentor" while Bamba develops (not to mention unrealistic financially). I could argue either direction but I think we should pick ONE and take our lumps (if it's Bamba) or get some complementary talent (back) for Bamba while he's still got big value based on his projected elite value....I'm honestly not sure which way I lean anymore but I'm feeling more certain we are at a crossroads of mediocrity if we don't decide. Bamba cannot and should not play in a Vuc-centric system-he'll never be a twinkle-toed, low post McHale, positional defender, elbow passer like Vuc...it's unrealistic to change the entire scheme when he subs in for his 15 mins a game.

[Xatticus]

And at 21 years of age, Vucevic was averaging 5.5 ppg (.455 eFG%, .462 TS%, .529 FT%, 6.2 AST%). Perhaps Isaac and Bamba are a good distance away from reaching their peaks as well? Perhaps their production is hampered by the presence of veterans on the roster in much the same way as Vucevic's was in Philadelphia? Maybe Vucevic developed that offensive awareness and feel for the game over the last seven years?

The evidence of Isaac's improvement is there. His eFG and TS percentages have improved substantially despite his struggles at the 3-point line this year because a significantly higher percentage of his shots are coming from right around the hoop and because he is hitting a much higher percentage of his 2-point jump shots. His FTr has spiked up this year as well. This is almost certainly the result of his increased strength, yet he still has a long way to go in his physical maturation.

Oh come on you know better than this.

His eFG last year was 3rd worst among all PFs on ESPNs hollinger's data , now he "Improved " to 10th worst.
His TS% was one of the worst among active rotation players in general, now it's just 56th worst among 65 PFs in nba.

His PER is 5th worst among PFs despite getting 25 mpg.

His RPM is 88th among 97. players who ever played PF this season.

His OBPM is 94th among 97 players. Only Giles, Anderson and W.C Jr ( rookie ) are worst offensive players than him this year at PF.


This is like praising drug addict that he went from heroine to meth. Or saying your love life is good because now girl you have crush on finally looked in your direction. While she was making out with some dude.
Guy has been nothing shorter than a bust so far.

That's how development manifests. You can ignore it if you want to.

Just two seasons ago, a veteran Vucevic posted a .498 TS% on 24.8% usage.

You can keep hammering Isaac, but I like what I see from him.

[pepe1991]

And at 21 years of age, Vucevic was averaging 5.5 ppg (.455 eFG%, .462 TS%, .529 FT%, 6.2 AST%). Perhaps Isaac and Bamba are a good distance away from reaching their peaks as well? Perhaps their production is hampered by the presence of veterans on the roster in much the same way as Vucevic's was in Philadelphia? Maybe Vucevic developed that offensive awareness and feel for the game over the last seven years?

The evidence of Isaac's improvement is there. His eFG and TS percentages have improved substantially despite his struggles at the 3-point line this year because a significantly higher percentage of his shots are coming from right around the hoop and because he is hitting a much higher percentage of his 2-point jump shots. His FTr has spiked up this year as well. This is almost certainly the result of his increased strength, yet he still has a long way to go in his physical maturation.

Oh come on you know better than this.

His eFG last year was 3rd worst among all PFs on ESPNs hollinger's data , now he "Improved " to 10th worst.
His TS% was one of the worst among active rotation players in general, now it's just 56th worst among 65 PFs in nba.

His PER is 5th worst among PFs despite getting 25 mpg.

His RPM is 88th among 97. players who ever played PF this season.

His OBPM is 94th among 97 players. Only Giles, Anderson and W.C Jr ( rookie ) are worst offensive players than him this year at PF.


This is like praising drug addict that he went from heroine to meth. Or saying your love life is good because now girl you have crush on finally looked in your direction. While she was making out with some dude.
Guy has been nothing shorter than a bust so far.

That's how development manifests. You can ignore it if you want to.

Just two seasons ago, a veteran Vucevic posted a .498 TS% on 24.8% usage.

You can keep hammering Isaac, but I like what I see from him.

So improvment is to move from top 3 worst to top 5 worst? By this pace he'll be nba level player in 10 years?

Did Vučević had 50% TS ? Yes. Why? Because his long 2s and not drawing enough FTs.
How about eFG% ? Isaac 43- 46 in back to back years. Vuc 45,5% is career lowest ( Rookie year ) to career average of 51,2%.

But Vuc was still productive player that didn't have PER or BPM among league's dumpster where Isaac's stats are.
So not only that his advanced are bad, his actual counting stats are as bad. Where with Vuc that was never a case.
Among all that Isaac actually has the lowest defensive rating on a team, allegedly being good defender ( again story of guy being weak side blocker that leaves his assingments just to chase blocks who are one of most overrated measurable counting stats in nba anyway...)

You can like him or not, that's your subjective opinion, by stats, objectivlly ,he has been disaster.

[Xatticus]

Oh come on you know better than this.

His eFG last year was 3rd worst among all PFs on ESPNs hollinger's data , now he "Improved " to 10th worst.
His TS% was one of the worst among active rotation players in general, now it's just 56th worst among 65 PFs in nba.

His PER is 5th worst among PFs despite getting 25 mpg.

His RPM is 88th among 97. players who ever played PF this season.

His OBPM is 94th among 97 players. Only Giles, Anderson and W.C Jr ( rookie ) are worst offensive players than him this year at PF.


This is like praising drug addict that he went from heroine to meth. Or saying your love life is good because now girl you have crush on finally looked in your direction. While she was making out with some dude.
Guy has been nothing shorter than a bust so far.

That's how development manifests. You can ignore it if you want to.

Just two seasons ago, a veteran Vucevic posted a .498 TS% on 24.8% usage.

You can keep hammering Isaac, but I like what I see from him.

So improvment is to move from top 3 worst to top 5 worst? By this pace he'll be nba level player in 10 years?

Did Vučević had 50% TS ? Yes. Why? Because his long 2s and not drawing enough FTs.
How about eFG% ? Isaac 43- 46 in back to back years. Vuc 45,5% is career lowest ( Rookie year ) to career average of 51,2%.

But Vuc was still productive player that didn't have PER or BPM among league's dumpster where Isaac's stats are.
So not only that his advanced are bad, his actual counting stats are as bad. Where with Vuc that was never a case.
Among all that Isaac actually has the lowest defensive rating on a team, allegedly being good defender ( again story of guy being weak side blocker that leaves his assingments just to chase blocks who are one of most overrated measurable counting stats in nba anyway...)

You can like him or not, that's your subjective opinion, by stats, objectivlly ,he has been disaster.

PER and BPM are neither statistics nor metrics. A statistic measures something specific (e.g. field goal attempts). A metric attempts to coalesce various statistics that attempt to measure the same thing. The important thing to understand about metrics is validity. There are different types of validity, but basically it refers to how well something measures what it purports to measure. For a metric to meet the requisites for validity, its constituent statistics must measure the same thing. This simply isn't the case with PER or BPM.

PER and BPM are simply formulas that arbitrarily weight box score stats into an amalgamation for easy consumption. In the case of PER, Hollinger has stated that he designed it to reflect popular consensus, which is an asinine approach to statistics. These formulas are in no way definitive rankings of player performance. Both formulas heavily weight usage as a positive. That is to say that taking more shots is a good thing almost regardless of how efficient a player is with those shots.

I will never use PER to prop up my position; especially when I have access to a broad range of more specific data that more accurately reflects what is going on. I am slightly more apologetic regarding BPM, but only because of its correlation to RPM. I understand how flawed BPM is, but it is a rudimentary imitation of something more meaningful.

You can't argue that the statistics objectively paint Isaac as a disaster. This is a wholly inaccurate assertion. But even if it were true, I would not care. I am more concerned with a player's ceiling, where they are on their developmental curve, how likely they are to develop towards the player I believe they can become, and whether or not they are showing demonstrable improvement.

Isaac's improvement from last season is obvious to me. His turnover rate is down. His assist rate has been climbing. He is taking better shots this year. His FTr is way up. His eFG and TS percentages, which you are dismissive of, have improved substantially. This despite the fact that a larger percentage of his FG attempts have been 3-point attempts and he is making them at a lower rate than he did last year. His FG% on long 2-point attempts has improved dramatically, though this is probably more due to the fact that his percentages on those shots last year did not accurately reflect his true ability. His FG% on 2-point attempts is way up on the whole. And all of this is on a higher volume. His usage has declined of late, but it is still up on the year; which combined with his improved efficiency has yielded significantly better per 36 scoring (9.7 to 11.4).

I have always appreciated your input around here because you take unpopular positions and spark debate. Respectfully, I would suggest that you not bite down too hard on the dogmatic anti-Isaac rhetoric, because I think people are going to remember it. You may not like him, but I see a kid that works hard, has tremendous upside, and has the right mental approach to the game.

[tiderulz]

That's how development manifests. You can ignore it if you want to.

Just two seasons ago, a veteran Vucevic posted a .498 TS% on 24.8% usage.

You can keep hammering Isaac, but I like what I see from him.

So improvment is to move from top 3 worst to top 5 worst? By this pace he'll be nba level player in 10 years?

Did Vučević had 50% TS ? Yes. Why? Because his long 2s and not drawing enough FTs.
How about eFG% ? Isaac 43- 46 in back to back years. Vuc 45,5% is career lowest ( Rookie year ) to career average of 51,2%.

But Vuc was still productive player that didn't have PER or BPM among league's dumpster where Isaac's stats are.
So not only that his advanced are bad, his actual counting stats are as bad. Where with Vuc that was never a case.
Among all that Isaac actually has the lowest defensive rating on a team, allegedly being good defender ( again story of guy being weak side blocker that leaves his assingments just to chase blocks who are one of most overrated measurable counting stats in nba anyway...)

You can like him or not, that's your subjective opinion, by stats, objectivlly ,he has been disaster.

PER and BPM are neither statistics nor metrics. A statistic measures something specific (e.g. field goal attempts). A metric attempts to coalesce various statistics that attempt to measure the same thing. The important thing to understand about metrics is validity. There are different types of validity, but basically it refers to how well something measures what it purports to measure. For a metric to meet the requisites for validity, its constituent statistics must measure the same thing. This simply isn't the case with PER or BPM.

PER and BPM are simply formulas that arbitrarily weight box score stats into an amalgamation for easy consumption. In the case of PER, Hollinger has stated that he designed it to reflect popular consensus, which is an asinine approach to statistics. These formulas are in no way definitive rankings of player performance. Both formulas heavily weight usage as a positive. That is to say that taking more shots is a good thing almost regardless of how efficient a player is with those shots.

I will never use PER to prop up my position; especially when I have access to a broad range of more specific data that more accurately reflects what is going on. I am slightly more apologetic regarding BPM, but only because of its correlation to RPM. I understand how flawed BPM is, but it is a rudimentary imitation of something more meaningful.

You can't argue that the statistics objectively paint Isaac as a disaster. This is a wholly inaccurate assertion. But even if it were true, I would not care. I am more concerned with a player's ceiling, where they are on their developmental curve, how likely they are to develop towards the player I believe they can become, and whether or not they are showing demonstrable improvement.

Isaac's improvement from last season is obvious to me. His turnover rate is down. His assist rate has been climbing. He is taking better shots this year. His FTr is way up. His eFG and TS percentages, which you are dismissive of, have improved substantially. This despite the fact that a larger percentage of his FG attempts have been 3-point attempts and he is making them at a lower rate than he did last year. His FG% on long 2-point attempts has improved dramatically, though this is probably more due to the fact that his percentages on those shots last year did not accurately reflect his true ability. His FG% on 2-point attempts is way up on the whole. And all of this is on a higher volume. His usage has declined of late, but it is still up on the year; which combined with his improved efficiency has yielded significantly better per 36 scoring (9.7 to 11.4).

I have always appreciated your input around here because you take unpopular positions and spark debate. Respectfully, I would suggest that you not bite down too hard on the dogmatic anti-Isaac rhetoric, because I think people are going to remember it. You may not like him, but I see a kid that works hard, has tremendous upside, and has the right mental approach to the game.

i dont think Pepe dislikes Isaac. He just doesnt fawn over him and takes an unbiased, critical review of him. something that a lot of people cant seem to be able to do. I am more in Pepe's camp, so i guess call me an "unbeliever" in Isaac, in that i believe he should have shown more than he has by now. What i see is a defensive role player with limited offensive capabilities. Which I thought was what Gordon was chosen as years ago. I would be fine with an Isaac for DSJ swap, as we need someone like DSJ and to me, DSJ has shown more in his playing time and development than Isaac has.

[fklt]

man, I've decided I have no respect for smart people who use all of their brain cells to justify their preconceived beliefs, instead of trying and understanding what's going on around them. don't know why am I this angry about this, but I am. and you can't be more **** wrong.

vuc has passable footwork? you can argue he has the best footwork among all active centers in the world, and at worst he is top 5 in the NBA. if he's passable, give me a list of who is good right now? then continue to who's great, and give me who's elite. make sure to populate the whole spectrum, so we can be sure you know the meaning of the word passable.

he never struggled against whiteside and drummond. in fact his career averages against miami and detroit are better than his overall averages. and in fact, both drummond and whiteside struggled against him almost every time as he takes them away from the rim and their comfort zones. you just made that up.

you can argue that it's this organization's fault that they never had a center that can compete with him for minutes, but he never played minutes undeservingly on this team. in fact, he lost minutes to one of the worst players in the league because a dumb duo of a coach and GM was trying to justify their 16 million dollars investment, very similar to you, going around hoops just to not admit they were very wrong. doesn't help your argument.

fournier competed with oladipo and backed him up and only when he outperformed him, he got the nod as a starter. (check this out if you think he never did outperform him http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2014/position/2) and to be frank, after he started for us and got the minutes, he has not progressed one bit and stagnated mightily in the last 3 years. he doesn't help your argument as well. reduced role oladipo got in OKC however helped him become one of the best players in the league. hmmm, wonder how that works.

and finally, what another stratosphere? based on what fact? is there a statistical pattern that players who displayed the stats, the characteristics, and measurable in their first 1 or 2 seasons becoming superstars or amazing players? I don't remember any of these "can't play basketball, but they're long and jumpy" guys amounting to anything. what happened to nerlens noel, thon maker, biyombo? so again do you have any facts on your side? no, you don't, the only reason you think they are in a **** stratosphere you just have a very outdated view what a good prospect is, and you personally like those guys better than vucevic and fournier.

as it becomes more and more obvious that you picked the wrong horses, instead of realizing you don't need to pick and choose, you guys lose touch with the reality more and more.

Almost anyone that is 6'10" or taller that isn't listed exclusively as a center has better footwork than Vucevic. There is a reason that Bamba is listed as the four any time they share the court together. Vucevic has been logged as a center for every single minute that he has played in a Magic uniform.

Porzingis is an example of a player with vastly superior footwork. He has the ability to speed up his feet and recover when a player gets the edge on him. Vucevic doesn't. His feet are too slow to recover. This is why he sags on pick and rolls or whenever he gets isolated on a switch.

Vucevic does have an array of moves when he has the ball in the paint, but that is a product of muscle memory brought on by repetition.

I didn't say he struggles against Whiteside and Drummond. I said he controls his zone as a defensive rebounder against most everyone except for players that are physically similar or superior to him. This is because he is sound on his fundamentals; as opposed to having superior tools or preternatural instincts. As such, he seldom goes out of his zone to get a rebound. This is why his ORB percentage is substantially lower than most other players with comparable DRB percentages.

Isaac and Bamba are superior prospects to what Vucevic was for the same reasons that Oladipo was a superior prospect to Fournier. And Oladipo is now a superior player to Fournier because his ceiling was always substantially higher.

I have no idea why you are comparing Isaac and Bamba to Noel, Maker, or Biyombo. None of the three guys you chose possessed anything resembling a perimeter game before they were drafted. Aside from having superior physical tools, Isaac and Bamba were superior players to Vucevic at the same respective points in their pre-NBA careers. Isaac hit 35% of his 3-point attempts in his lone collegiate season as well as his first professional season and has a higher career FT% than Evan Fournier, but he is the next Biyombo?

I don't know why you take this personally, but given your preamble, you are in no position to condemn my objectivity.

mate, you just claimed vuc and fournier were not talented players and only as good as they are because we have invested in them greatly. roster slots we are gifting to isaac and bamba right now, even though they are net negative players and there are better alternatives even in our own roster, were never gifted to vuc and fournier because they were not lottery picks. they've earned every minute they played and I've just explained to you fournier is pretty much the same player he was before he started any minutes for us. but you want to justify gifting even more undeserving opportunities to our long bois than we're currently gifting, so you were rewriting history based on your imagination, with more unsubstantial claims here and there as cherries on top.

and now you're dancing around tangents about fournier not having any potential to begin with and vuc's moves being muscle memory? you can stop talking about objectivity as that's another lost word to you, very much like "footwork" you're confusing with lateral quickness. at this point it's pretty apparent you've disassociated yourself from logic and consistency completely.

[pepe1991]

i'm baffled from things i saw here. Ok... No comment really.

[BadHombre]

man, I've decided I have no respect for smart people who use all of their brain cells to justify their preconceived beliefs, instead of trying and understanding what's going on around them. don't know why am I this angry about this, but I am. and you can't be more **** wrong.

vuc has passable footwork? you can argue he has the best footwork among all active centers in the world, and at worst he is top 5 in the NBA. if he's passable, give me a list of who is good right now? then continue to who's great, and give me who's elite. make sure to populate the whole spectrum, so we can be sure you know the meaning of the word passable.

he never struggled against whiteside and drummond. in fact his career averages against miami and detroit are better than his overall averages. and in fact, both drummond and whiteside struggled against him almost every time as he takes them away from the rim and their comfort zones. you just made that up.

you can argue that it's this organization's fault that they never had a center that can compete with him for minutes, but he never played minutes undeservingly on this team. in fact, he lost minutes to one of the worst players in the league because a dumb duo of a coach and GM was trying to justify their 16 million dollars investment, very similar to you, going around hoops just to not admit they were very wrong. doesn't help your argument.

fournier competed with oladipo and backed him up and only when he outperformed him, he got the nod as a starter. (check this out if you think he never did outperform him http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2014/position/2) and to be frank, after he started for us and got the minutes, he has not progressed one bit and stagnated mightily in the last 3 years. he doesn't help your argument as well. reduced role oladipo got in OKC however helped him become one of the best players in the league. hmmm, wonder how that works.

and finally, what another stratosphere? based on what fact? is there a statistical pattern that players who displayed the stats, the characteristics, and measurable in their first 1 or 2 seasons becoming superstars or amazing players? I don't remember any of these "can't play basketball, but they're long and jumpy" guys amounting to anything. what happened to nerlens noel, thon maker, biyombo? so again do you have any facts on your side? no, you don't, the only reason you think they are in a **** stratosphere you just have a very outdated view what a good prospect is, and you personally like those guys better than vucevic and fournier.

as it becomes more and more obvious that you picked the wrong horses, instead of realizing you don't need to pick and choose, you guys lose touch with the reality more and more.

Almost anyone that is 6'10" or taller that isn't listed exclusively as a center has better footwork than Vucevic. There is a reason that Bamba is listed as the four any time they share the court together. Vucevic has been logged as a center for every single minute that he has played in a Magic uniform.

Porzingis is an example of a player with vastly superior footwork. He has the ability to speed up his feet and recover when a player gets the edge on him. Vucevic doesn't. His feet are too slow to recover. This is why he sags on pick and rolls or whenever he gets isolated on a switch.

Vucevic does have an array of moves when he has the ball in the paint, but that is a product of muscle memory brought on by repetition.

I didn't say he struggles against Whiteside and Drummond. I said he controls his zone as a defensive rebounder against most everyone except for players that are physically similar or superior to him. This is because he is sound on his fundamentals; as opposed to having superior tools or preternatural instincts. As such, he seldom goes out of his zone to get a rebound. This is why his ORB percentage is substantially lower than most other players with comparable DRB percentages.

Isaac and Bamba are superior prospects to what Vucevic was for the same reasons that Oladipo was a superior prospect to Fournier. And Oladipo is now a superior player to Fournier because his ceiling was always substantially higher.

I have no idea why you are comparing Isaac and Bamba to Noel, Maker, or Biyombo. None of the three guys you chose possessed anything resembling a perimeter game before they were drafted. Aside from having superior physical tools, Isaac and Bamba were superior players to Vucevic at the same respective points in their pre-NBA careers. Isaac hit 35% of his 3-point attempts in his lone collegiate season as well as his first professional season and has a higher career FT% than Evan Fournier, but he is the next Biyombo?

I don't know why you take this personally, but given your preamble, you are in no position to condemn my objectivity.

mate, you just claimed vuc and fournier were not talented players and only as good as they are because we have invested in them greatly. roster slots we are gifting to isaac and bamba right now, even though they are net negative players and there are better alternatives even in our own roster, were never gifted to vuc and fournier because they were not lottery picks. they've earned every minute they played and I've just explained to you fournier is pretty much the same player he was before he started any minutes for us. but you want to justify gifting even more undeserving opportunities to our long bois than we're currently gifting, so you were rewriting history based on your imagination, with more unsubstantial claims here and there as cherries on top.

and now you're dancing around tangents about fournier not having any potential to begin with and vuc's moves being muscle memory? you can stop talking about objectivity as that's another lost word to you, very much like "footwork" you're confusing with lateral quickness. at this point it's pretty apparent you've disassociated yourself from logic and consistency completely.

Vucevic wasn't gifted minutes? He went from a bench role in Philly to playing 33mpg here, and he has been a net negative player every season other than this one (based off netrtg). Fournier you could argue battled for his minutes against Oladipo at least.

But Vuc improved year over year in incremental ways and this season he's the most complete player he's been to date. There's even a case to be made for him as an allstar. We should all applaud that and hope he can regain form and prove that November wasn't a fluke month for him.

Peronsally, I'm happy with Bamba's role presently. He's improving game by game and not taking on a role that's too much for him to handle. Next season he will be ready for more responsibility though.

[pepe1991]

Almost anyone that is 6'10" or taller that isn't listed exclusively as a center has better footwork than Vucevic. There is a reason that Bamba is listed as the four any time they share the court together. Vucevic has been logged as a center for every single minute that he has played in a Magic uniform.

Porzingis is an example of a player with vastly superior footwork. He has the ability to speed up his feet and recover when a player gets the edge on him. Vucevic doesn't. His feet are too slow to recover. This is why he sags on pick and rolls or whenever he gets isolated on a switch.

Vucevic does have an array of moves when he has the ball in the paint, but that is a product of muscle memory brought on by repetition.

I didn't say he struggles against Whiteside and Drummond. I said he controls his zone as a defensive rebounder against most everyone except for players that are physically similar or superior to him. This is because he is sound on his fundamentals; as opposed to having superior tools or preternatural instincts. As such, he seldom goes out of his zone to get a rebound. This is why his ORB percentage is substantially lower than most other players with comparable DRB percentages.

Isaac and Bamba are superior prospects to what Vucevic was for the same reasons that Oladipo was a superior prospect to Fournier. And Oladipo is now a superior player to Fournier because his ceiling was always substantially higher.

I have no idea why you are comparing Isaac and Bamba to Noel, Maker, or Biyombo. None of the three guys you chose possessed anything resembling a perimeter game before they were drafted. Aside from having superior physical tools, Isaac and Bamba were superior players to Vucevic at the same respective points in their pre-NBA careers. Isaac hit 35% of his 3-point attempts in his lone collegiate season as well as his first professional season and has a higher career FT% than Evan Fournier, but he is the next Biyombo?

I don't know why you take this personally, but given your preamble, you are in no position to condemn my objectivity.

mate, you just claimed vuc and fournier were not talented players and only as good as they are because we have invested in them greatly. roster slots we are gifting to isaac and bamba right now, even though they are net negative players and there are better alternatives even in our own roster, were never gifted to vuc and fournier because they were not lottery picks. they've earned every minute they played and I've just explained to you fournier is pretty much the same player he was before he started any minutes for us. but you want to justify gifting even more undeserving opportunities to our long bois than we're currently gifting, so you were rewriting history based on your imagination, with more unsubstantial claims here and there as cherries on top.

and now you're dancing around tangents about fournier not having any potential to begin with and vuc's moves being muscle memory? you can stop talking about objectivity as that's another lost word to you, very much like "footwork" you're confusing with lateral quickness. at this point it's pretty apparent you've disassociated yourself from logic and consistency completely.

Vucevic wasn't gifted minutes? He went from a bench role in Philly to playing 33mpg here, and he has been a net negative player every season other than this one (based off netrtg). Fournier you could argue battled for his minutes against Oladipo at least.

But Vuc improved year over year in incremental ways and this season he's the most complete player he's been to date. There's even a case to be made for him as an allstar. We should all applaud that and hope he can regain form and prove that November wasn't a fluke month for him.

Peronsally, I'm happy with Bamba's role presently. He's improving game by game and not taking on a role that's too much for him to handle. Next season he will be ready for more responsibility though.

Vucevic wasn't gifted minutes? He went from a bench role in Philly to playing 33mpg here, and he has been a net negative player every season other than this one (based off netrtg).

Net rating is tied with performance of a team. It's impossible to really perform well by net rating on losing team. But it sill gets you perspective on who's been worst ( since almost all players on bad teams have net rating negative ) .
Look at this net ratings through last few years:

2014-15 nobody with positive net rating on roster
2015-16 best net rating- Frye. Frye, Nicholson and Hezonja only Magic players with positive net rating.
2016-17 net rating- nobody positive
2017-18 - same

So in vacuum yes, Vuc has been negative, much like everybody else, but he has been always among best players by net rating on Magic. It's just important to keep in mind that negative is expected on team that flys around 24-34 Ws every year.

[Xatticus]

Spoiler:

mate, you just claimed vuc and fournier were not talented players and only as good as they are because we have invested in them greatly. roster slots we are gifting to isaac and bamba right now, even though they are net negative players and there are better alternatives even in our own roster, were never gifted to vuc and fournier because they were not lottery picks. they've earned every minute they played and I've just explained to you fournier is pretty much the same player he was before he started any minutes for us. but you want to justify gifting even more undeserving opportunities to our long bois than we're currently gifting, so you were rewriting history based on your imagination, with more unsubstantial claims here and there as cherries on top.

and now you're dancing around tangents about fournier not having any potential to begin with and vuc's moves being muscle memory? you can stop talking about objectivity as that's another lost word to you, very much like "footwork" you're confusing with lateral quickness. at this point it's pretty apparent you've disassociated yourself from logic and consistency completely.

I didn't claim that they are not talented players. I said they are not particularly talented players. This is not a difficult distinction and I think it would be fairly condescending of me to explain the difference. I believe both players reside well within the confines of the first standard deviation of talent among NBA players.

Of course we gifted them minutes. There was no competition. Hennigan traded or released everyone that had a hand in our success during the previous era. Dwight Howard? Gone. Jameer Nelson? Gone. Ryan Anderson? Gone. JJ Redick? Gone. Hedo Turkoglu? Gone. If management wants to force the coach to play the youngsters, that's how you do it.

Fournier didn't compete for playing time with Oladipo. He started alongside Oladipo.

Yes. I absolutely believe that the playing time they were given has aided in their development, though I wouldn't characterize their level of play as good. You don't win games by accruing box score stats. You win games by outscoring your opposition. Being the best player on a team that has averaged 26 wins per season doesn't really say a lot by itself.

I don't think it's entirely fair to Fournier to assert that he hasn't improved over the last couple years, but whatever improvements he has made have been rather modest. Again though, there are limitations for players that lack quickness, athleticism, or strength. Have you considered that the stagnation from both players has been because they are near their potential ceilings?

I didn't say I want more opportunities for our prospects. I'm a bit too much of a realist to expect a significant change in style with our current roster composition. That said, I'm rather pleased with how Clifford has been distributing minutes. I do believe it would accelerate their development if they were given the keys to the offense as well though.

Footwork is everything that has to do with a player's ability to move their feet. Poor lateral speed is simply one manifestation of poor footwork. And to be clear, I wasn't inconsiderate of Vucevic's prowess on offense in the paint. Were it not for that, I certainly wouldn't have described his footwork as passable. I would've chosen an adjective like plodding, lumbering, or ungainly.

I think the difference between our positions is that you see our young players as being the problem, whereas I see in them the potential to solve our problems. They might. They might not. But consider that they wouldn't even be on our roster right now if we weren't so consistently awful in the years preceding their arrivals.

If you want to continue this debate, you have to give me something to work with. The crux of your argument seems to be that you disagree with me and therefore I am wrong and incapable of objectivity. You'll continue trying to convince me that Vucevic is as elegant as Baryshnikov and I will continue to direct you to the final standings over the last six years. You'll sling some more insults. I will ignore them. Consider this though... you took offense to an innocuous statement that describes the large majority of players in the NBA right now and tried to start a faction war. That says everything about you and nothing about me.

[fklt]

Spoiler:

mate, you just claimed vuc and fournier were not talented players and only as good as they are because we have invested in them greatly. roster slots we are gifting to isaac and bamba right now, even though they are net negative players and there are better alternatives even in our own roster, were never gifted to vuc and fournier because they were not lottery picks. they've earned every minute they played and I've just explained to you fournier is pretty much the same player he was before he started any minutes for us. but you want to justify gifting even more undeserving opportunities to our long bois than we're currently gifting, so you were rewriting history based on your imagination, with more unsubstantial claims here and there as cherries on top.

and now you're dancing around tangents about fournier not having any potential to begin with and vuc's moves being muscle memory? you can stop talking about objectivity as that's another lost word to you, very much like "footwork" you're confusing with lateral quickness. at this point it's pretty apparent you've disassociated yourself from logic and consistency completely.

I didn't claim that they are not talented players. I said they are not particularly talented players. This is not a difficult distinction and I think it would be fairly condescending of me to explain the difference. I believe both players reside well within the confines of the first standard deviation of talent among NBA players.

Of course we gifted them minutes. There was no competition. Hennigan traded or released everyone that had a hand in our success during the previous era. Dwight Howard? Gone. Jameer Nelson? Gone. Ryan Anderson? Gone. JJ Redick? Gone. Hedo Turkoglu? Gone. If management wants to force the coach to play the youngsters, that's how you do it.

Fournier didn't compete for playing time with Oladipo. He started alongside Oladipo.

Yes. I absolutely believe that the playing time they were given has aided in their development, though I wouldn't characterize their level of play as good. You don't win games by accruing box score stats. You win games by outscoring your opposition. Being the best player on a team that has averaged 26 wins per season doesn't really say a lot by itself.

I don't think it's entirely fair to Fournier to assert that he hasn't improved over the last couple years, but whatever improvements he has made have been rather modest. Again though, there are limitations for players that lack quickness, athleticism, or strength. Have you considered that the stagnation from both players has been because they are near their potential ceilings?

I didn't say I want more opportunities for our prospects. I'm a bit too much of a realist to expect a significant change in style with our current roster composition. That said, I'm rather pleased with how Clifford has been distributing minutes. I do believe it would accelerate their development if they were given the keys to the offense as well though.

Footwork is everything that has to do with a player's ability to move their feet. Poor lateral speed is simply one manifestation of poor footwork. And to be clear, I wasn't inconsiderate of Vucevic's prowess on offense in the paint. Were it not for that, I certainly wouldn't have described his footwork as passable. I would've chosen an adjective like plodding, lumbering, or ungainly.

I think the difference between our positions is that you see our young players as being the problem, whereas I see in them the potential to solve our problems. They might. They might not. But consider that they wouldn't even be on our roster right now if we weren't so consistently awful in the years preceding their arrivals.

If you want to continue this debate, you have to give me something to work with. The crux of your argument seems to be that you disagree with me and therefore I am wrong and incapable of objectivity. You'll continue trying to convince me that Vucevic is as elegant as Baryshnikov and I will continue to direct you to the final standings over the last six years. You'll sling some more insults. I will ignore them. Consider this though... you took offense to an innocuous statement that describes the large majority of players in the NBA right now and tried to start a faction war. That says everything about you and nothing about me.

there is no faction war, and my take has never been young players being our problem. a very big part of the emotional investment I have in magic is caused by the excitement I felt about the drafts of oladipo, gordon, and payton 5 years ago and tbh not sure what this supposed declaration of war would've said about me anyway. on the other hand, this exchange says a lot about your deductive interpretation of the facts and the logical leaps you're willing to take to connect the far away dots you want. you're surely not the only person on the board guilty of this, but smarter the culprit, more disappointing and bothersome it gets i guess.

lastly apologies, considering your ability to weave through the inconvenience, I'm not seeing any worth in continuing with the actual debate. subtle insult slinging is all I have at this point.