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Classifying Different Rebuilding Strategies

Posted: Fri Feb 1, 2019 8:05 am
by dsg2021
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When you look at the most successful rebuilding strategies in this era of GSW and ‘superstars on speed dial and trade demands’, I find that there are starting to materialise three different models, or methodologies, to the practice. I found this as very interesting and important for all of us fans to notice and learn from.

Before I get into it, let me preface this maturely as saying that the WeHam FO is only 2 years old and is still saddled with Hennigan contracts mucking up the cap structure and flexibility today (most particularly; Fournier, a good player, and Mozgov, an injured big).
I am also extremely curious as to how many of you would classify or add to the methods to rebuilding. I am sure a large part of you want the tank-out method, but I am still curious if you’re starting to see the “other/worser” ways like me, how you would classify the methods/paths to rebuilding, what can you touch on or add to the discussion, or what you can outright explain and classify better than me! I find all of this very interesting, because it clarifies better what we are looking for and hoping for as fans from a FO & team. And I hope you find this post interesting too.



In no particular order,
Method 1:
The GM’s hat method
As exemplified by BOS and DAL, you trade for your lottery first and hit absolutely big on it (Tatum, Luka). The other component is then consistent flexible cap space, AND maintaining it consistently until the opportunity arises (ex.s, sign Horford and Hayward, acquire bad contracts and KP with your expirings). On a side note tho, notice how DAL’s large offer to Noel was rejected by him. If he accepted, it would have hurt the cap space to put another superstar or more pieces around KP and Luka. Although I kinda like the pair for Luka if it happened; one roll man, and one pop man. Returning to the main point tho, maintaining that flexible cap space consistently thru seasons is a tricky part, for sure. There's also that one bit about knowing who's going to be a superstar when 29 other teams don't see it as strongly as you, AND successfully getting them via trade!


Method 2:
The tank-out method
Looking at teams like PHI, OKC (longer ago), and PHO today (although PHO might be classified as a #1 as well), there is a clear strategy to merely keeping yourself soundly in the top 4 picks for a span of time until it’s worth it to build from there. There are caveats tho. With PHI and OKC, the draft years were strong classes. With PHI, they drafted their fair share of busts as well, but they stayed in the tank-out strategy until it payed off very well, as well as making some shrewd trades too. With OKC, they showed you what happens when you have a smart, draft-savvy FO doing the strategy (but a tragic, money-saving ownership to mess it up, unlike our DeVos family). And with PHO, who would be the most representative of this strategy if ORL tried it today, you see that weaker draft classes this last decade-and-half are starting to hit hard, and coming out of rock-bottom is hard work. But still, when you have amazing players like Ayton, Booker, and Mikal & T.J., the strategy is very enticing.


Method 3:
The smartest-drafters method
You might not be a large market, or have a trade-savvy or trade-happy FO, but you do draft consistently better than the average FO in the draft green room and beyond. And that may “even” (and now, perhaps, “even often” is a better phrase in this GSW era) include landing your own superstar type draft hit despite being in a later, less-sexy draft spot (UTA, MIL, DEN, and arguably TOR & SAS all fit this method).
Furthermore, all are teams that valued winning and have a system of basketball that players could fit into and grow within, rather than a faceless, wanderless system with no common themes and system features. Take DEN, for example, they always had an offensively-geared, fast-paced system of basketball, and now all of a sudden they are hitting on players perfect for their system and who represent big hits for their draft positions (Jokic standing out the most). But even their late picks tend to be panning out very well too! (Monte Morris as the most recent example). UTA as well, has drafted two superstar type players in Gobert and Mitchell (who I like even more than Booker) and works around a common system more than others. MIL represents it well by hitting on the biggest superstar type player in Giannis, and although the smart-drafter label doesn’t apply as consistently as DEN and 1-2 others, there was still a critical 2-3 others drafted making big impacts, as well as other 2nd rounders making some great production for their draft position.



So where does ORL fit in these three methods? And perhaps the three labels are less static and more like three influential bases.. For example, one team might have the tendencies to show, say, 60% ‘GM’s hat’, 30% ‘smart-drafting’, and 10% ‘tank-out’ in their overall strategy. And so on and so forth in different variations for different examples.

For me, ORL seems to have the 4 GM’s and FO staff to work around the ‘smartest-drafters’ method, but I caution their “system” might be tricking them to draft big men and length when what they should really continue emphasising from ORL’s common system of the last two decades is its savvy SAS-like passing and IQ. They also missed on the two superstar type ones, Mitchell and Luka, to date. On the flip side, BPA is BPA and nothing else matters, and a versatile All-NBA Defender or two along the way is awfully nice too (ahem, AG and JI). And from a fan-review perspective, ORL will have to start showing somewhat consistent draft hits in the next 2-3 years (and a draft “hit” will count if say, J.I. or Bamba make a huge step in year 3) with a good system of basketball for them to fit in, grow from, and win with. If they don’t, then they will not quite be close enough to match this “smartest-drafters” label, and maybe it might fit/take to them better a ‘GM’s hat’ or ‘tank-out’ method within the next 2-3 years. Once this summer hits, the last major parts of the old FO’s cap structure will be only Fournier (good player) and Mozgov (injured big) left as well.
Interestingly, ORL has also shown tendencies of the 'GM’s hat' method, which is to value cap space consistently and look at interesting trades. There have been previous, minor FO talks of trading up into a top 3 spot, and there has also been two years of consistent cap-saving/minded moves as well.

Thoughts? Opinions?

Re: Classifying Different Rebuilding Strategies

Posted: Fri Feb 1, 2019 8:14 am
by p0peye
Smartest-drafters may actually be good developers of talent acquired. Also/or having good coaches capable to design system that suits their talent the best.

Re: Classifying Different Rebuilding Strategies

Posted: Fri Feb 1, 2019 8:19 am
by dsg2021
p0peye wrote:Smartest-drafters may actually be good developers of talent acquired. Also/or having good coaches capable to design system that suits their talent the best.


Very interesting observation on that, it really could be. I definitely think the ‘smartest-drafters’ is the most complex of the three, and my guess is that you secretly need to balance drafting for fit with drafting for BPA. Because you have a system to make it look good.

Because look at it from one example, a BPA is taken into a poor system with poor coaches and he doesn’t develop as best as he could. And a best-fit is taken and fits right in, taking all the hard-earned lessons from the coaches and other players, but fitting into their system and what they need the most. He gets to develop as properly as it can happen, and even discovers and pushes himself past his “ceiling” sometimes. He certainly becomes a draft hit and asset too.

Re: Classifying Different Rebuilding Strategies

Posted: Fri Feb 1, 2019 8:51 am
by dsg2021
The 'case study' on SAS is the most interesting. They may be the most winning team of the past two decades, with titles, as well as arguably the most successful FO of the past two decades too.

They started with a 'tank-out' method because they found out it was the "Tim Duncan draft". It payed off.
They built around a high IQ, passing-based system and drafted around it as 'smartest-drafters' (ex., late hits on Parker, Ginobili).
They even put on their 'GM's hat' and traded for 15th pick Kawhi away from IND, developing Kawhi into a flat-out superstar.

They've been pretty perfect every step of the way, and it is very curious why they aren't 'tanking-out' recently. Do they see weak drafts with 0-1 superstars and are waiting for a better time? Will they try to 'trade' for the next "Kawhi'?.. But then they also just missed on trading for Luka recently too. SAS is in the playoffs now, but what will they do in the future?
And why are other teams more attributable to one, specific strategy?

Re: Classifying Different Rebuilding Strategies

Posted: Fri Feb 1, 2019 12:16 pm
by drsd
dsg2021 wrote:They started with a 'tank-out' method because they found out it was the "Tim Duncan draft". It payed off.


This is totally false.

In 95/96 he puts was a 59 win team. In 96/97, 6 games in to the season, Robinson goes down with a season-ending injury. He was 31 at the time and many wondered if his career was over. Anyhow, in the absence of his talent, the team was bad. Being bad is not tanking.

Re: Classifying Different Rebuilding Strategies

Posted: Fri Feb 1, 2019 12:17 pm
by drsd
The Magic has drafted well. The problem is that the team has not had a high enough draft choice to pick obviously better prospects.

Re: Classifying Different Rebuilding Strategies

Posted: Fri Feb 1, 2019 12:49 pm
by Nemesis21
There's actually a fourth one.



Method 4:
The Failure Method


See Orlando Magic 8 year rebuild.

Re: Classifying Different Rebuilding Strategies

Posted: Fri Feb 1, 2019 12:55 pm
by pepe1991
Nemesis21 wrote:There's actually a fourth one.



Method 4:
The Failure Method


See Orlando Magic 8 year rebuild.


*Draft players without basketball skill method*

Re: Classifying Different Rebuilding Strategies

Posted: Fri Feb 1, 2019 12:57 pm
by Mauro Pedrosa
I think you should go full tank but only for two years. If you’re able to trade some of your vets for a first rounder in those same drafts, better.

That way you have like 3 young guys to build around. Get some smart vets and start trying to win in year 3.

You won’t have too many young guys trying to compete with each other and you won’t overwhelm them with losing culture.

Basically what I think Atlanta is doing (well)

Re: Classifying Different Rebuilding Strategies

Posted: Fri Feb 1, 2019 1:13 pm
by Furinkazan
our strategy
#YOLO
#HAKUNAMATATA

Re: Classifying Different Rebuilding Strategies

Posted: Fri Feb 1, 2019 1:36 pm
by Nemesis21
Mauro Pedrosa wrote:I think you should go full tank but only for two years. If you’re able to trade some of your vets for a first rounder in those same drafts, better.

That way you have like 3 young guys to build around. Get some smart vets and start trying to win in year 3.

You won’t have too many young guys trying to compete with each other and you won’t overwhelm them with losing culture.

Basically what I think Atlanta is doing (well)



We could have done that for two years during any of the last 5 drafts(I'm including '19), and would have had a way brighter future than this pile of crap we have stared at the last 8 years.

Re: Classifying Different Rebuilding Strategies

Posted: Fri Feb 1, 2019 2:53 pm
by dsg2021
Nemesis21 wrote:There's actually a fourth one.



Method 4:
The Failure Method


See Orlando Magic 8 year rebuild.


:lol:

Re: Classifying Different Rebuilding Strategies

Posted: Fri Feb 1, 2019 3:04 pm
by basketballRob
Mauro Pedrosa wrote:I think you should go full tank but only for two years. If you’re able to trade some of your vets for a first rounder in those same drafts, better.

That way you have like 3 young guys to build around. Get some smart vets and start trying to win in year 3.

You won’t have too many young guys trying to compete with each other and you won’t overwhelm them with losing culture.

Basically what I think Atlanta is doing (well)
The problem is a GM usually only gets about 3 years. Weham knows if we're in their in the bottom 6 next year at this time, they could be fired.

When you trade veterans to bottom out you might get first round picks but you have to wait 2 or 3 years to get them.



Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

Re: Classifying Different Rebuilding Strategies

Posted: Fri Feb 1, 2019 6:19 pm
by Skin
I like the way WeHam has drafted. Isaac and Bamba were fine picks by me. Those 2 were among players I liked pre and post draft.
If I take a step back away from the misery of the current look of this roster, deep down, I still truly feel like Isaac and Bamaba could one day become a dominant frontcourt. I'm not ready to give up on that. Rumors of us trading Bamba are sickening. I can be patient with learning and development issues for top prospects, but I cannot be patient in sticking with what time has proven, doesn't work.

Re: Classifying Different Rebuilding Strategies

Posted: Fri Feb 1, 2019 8:13 pm
by BlueBalls
Skin wrote:I like the way WeHam has drafted. Isaac and Bamba were fine picks by me. Those 2 were among players I liked pre and post draft.
If I take a step back away from the misery of the current look of this roster, deep down, I still truly feel like Isaac and Bamaba could one day become a dominant frontcourt. I'm not ready to give up on that. Rumors of us trading Bamba are sickening. I can be patient with learning and development issues for top prospects, but I cannot be patient in sticking with what time has proven, doesn't work.


I'm one of the 7 of us left who really like the core of those 2 guys. But anyone and everyone else on this roster can go.

Re: Classifying Different Rebuilding Strategies

Posted: Fri Feb 1, 2019 8:41 pm
by VFX
Skin wrote:I like the way WeHam has drafted. Isaac and Bamba were fine picks by me. Those 2 were among players I liked pre and post draft.
If I take a step back away from the misery of the current look of this roster, deep down, I still truly feel like Isaac and Bamaba could one day become a dominant frontcourt. I'm not ready to give up on that. Rumors of us trading Bamba are sickening. I can be patient with learning and development issues for top prospects, but I cannot be patient in sticking with what time has proven, doesn't work.


I don’t understand the process of drafting project players only to sell them off while they are still under valuable rookie contracts. People were against jettisoning AG, and still having ptsd about Oladipo, but they see nothing wrong with getting rid of Isaac and Bamba. Why? This team isn’t good enough to compete anyway. Why not actually develop a new system that works instead of being afraid to take risks and stick with the decisions they’ve recently made.

Re: Classifying Different Rebuilding Strategies

Posted: Fri Feb 1, 2019 11:58 pm
by Skin
MagicMatic wrote:
Skin wrote:I like the way WeHam has drafted. Isaac and Bamba were fine picks by me. Those 2 were among players I liked pre and post draft.
If I take a step back away from the misery of the current look of this roster, deep down, I still truly feel like Isaac and Bamaba could one day become a dominant frontcourt. I'm not ready to give up on that. Rumors of us trading Bamba are sickening. I can be patient with learning and development issues for top prospects, but I cannot be patient in sticking with what time has proven, doesn't work.


I don’t understand the process of drafting project players only to sell them off while they are still under valuable rookie contracts. People were against jettisoning AG, and still having ptsd about Oladipo, but they see nothing wrong with getting rid of Isaac and Bamba. Why? This team isn’t good enough to compete anyway. Why not actually develop a new system that works instead of being afraid to take risks and stick with the decisions they’ve recently made.

It's because they seem to think that we are closer to becoming contenders if we surround Vuc with a better supporting cast.

Just to play devil's advocate against myself, sometimes I'll try to see if from that standpoint... but it's really hard to see a hopeful path. He needs to be surrounded by stars. Not developmental players. Honestly, we'd be better off with Carmelo than Isaac and John Wall than say Darius Garland... and even then, it's not enough.

Re: Classifying Different Rebuilding Strategies

Posted: Sat Feb 2, 2019 12:11 am
by VFX
Skin wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
Skin wrote:I like the way WeHam has drafted. Isaac and Bamba were fine picks by me. Those 2 were among players I liked pre and post draft.
If I take a step back away from the misery of the current look of this roster, deep down, I still truly feel like Isaac and Bamaba could one day become a dominant frontcourt. I'm not ready to give up on that. Rumors of us trading Bamba are sickening. I can be patient with learning and development issues for top prospects, but I cannot be patient in sticking with what time has proven, doesn't work.


I don’t understand the process of drafting project players only to sell them off while they are still under valuable rookie contracts. People were against jettisoning AG, and still having ptsd about Oladipo, but they see nothing wrong with getting rid of Isaac and Bamba. Why? This team isn’t good enough to compete anyway. Why not actually develop a new system that works instead of being afraid to take risks and stick with the decisions they’ve recently made.

It's because they seem to think that we are closer to becoming contenders if we surround Vuc with a better supporting cast.

Just to play devil's advocate against myself, sometimes I'll try to see if from that standpoint... but it's really hard to see a hopeful path. He needs to be surrounded by stars. Not developmental players. Honestly, we'd be better off with Carmelo than Isaac and John Wall than say Darius Garland... and even then, it's not enough.


Yeah. If people are realistic in thinking Vuc would be a third option on an actual contender, why then would they assume that he’s capable of carrying this roster any further than he has? Just seems like the biggest treadmill move to resign him with role players. Where else is the talent coming from? Luck in the draft?

Re: Classifying Different Rebuilding Strategies

Posted: Sat Feb 2, 2019 12:32 am
by BadHombre
MagicMatic wrote:
Skin wrote:I like the way WeHam has drafted. Isaac and Bamba were fine picks by me. Those 2 were among players I liked pre and post draft.
If I take a step back away from the misery of the current look of this roster, deep down, I still truly feel like Isaac and Bamaba could one day become a dominant frontcourt. I'm not ready to give up on that. Rumors of us trading Bamba are sickening. I can be patient with learning and development issues for top prospects, but I cannot be patient in sticking with what time has proven, doesn't work.


I don’t understand the process of drafting project players only to sell them off while they are still under valuable rookie contracts. People were against jettisoning AG, and still having ptsd about Oladipo, but they see nothing wrong with getting rid of Isaac and Bamba. Why? This team isn’t good enough to compete anyway. Why not actually develop a new system that works instead of being afraid to take risks and stick with the decisions they’ve recently made.


I’m still a big fan of Bamba and Isaac, but if they can be moved for other rookie contract prospects then it’s not a bad move. Sure, everyone wants to add without subtracting, but sometimes you have to swap when that’s not available. Ie, Bamba for DSJ is swapping a C prospect for a PG prospect. We’d still have a nice young piece to develop, but they have a better chance of fitting with some of the other players we have. Bamba for Jaylen Brown also gets us a wing scorer which we need.

Only reason it would be a problem is if you think Bamba has a higher ceiling and we’re trading for an inferior prospect (like Ntilikina).

Re: Classifying Different Rebuilding Strategies

Posted: Sat Feb 2, 2019 3:28 am
by Xatticus
MagicMatic wrote:
Skin wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
I don’t understand the process of drafting project players only to sell them off while they are still under valuable rookie contracts. People were against jettisoning AG, and still having ptsd about Oladipo, but they see nothing wrong with getting rid of Isaac and Bamba. Why? This team isn’t good enough to compete anyway. Why not actually develop a new system that works instead of being afraid to take risks and stick with the decisions they’ve recently made.

It's because they seem to think that we are closer to becoming contenders if we surround Vuc with a better supporting cast.

Just to play devil's advocate against myself, sometimes I'll try to see if from that standpoint... but it's really hard to see a hopeful path. He needs to be surrounded by stars. Not developmental players. Honestly, we'd be better off with Carmelo than Isaac and John Wall than say Darius Garland... and even then, it's not enough.


Yeah. If people are realistic in thinking Vuc would be a third option on an actual contender, why then would they assume that he’s capable of carrying this roster any further than he has? Just seems like the biggest treadmill move to resign him with role players. Where else is the talent coming from? Luck in the draft?


This is the problem. The tribalists around here are busy throwing up their "Mission Accomplished" banners, but we are still putting a dreadful product on the floor and we don't have a realistic means forward that relies on anything but wishful thinking. This franchise seems to have a fear of falling backward, though there really isn't far to fall from where we are. The only teams below us in the standings abandoned any notion of competing before the season began.